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  #61  
Old 03-05-2008, 04:08 AM
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ashtweth ashtweth is offline
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Mart thanks for the update, check out that comp i posted, remove that Fan and grease those bearings, you will drop that figure almost in HALF. The torque may not seem like much but i have Drilled stainless steal and will show you in my new video.

Ash
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  #62  
Old 03-05-2008, 05:10 AM
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power factor

Hi Mart,

When doing those readings, would you mind posting the power factor readings on the meter too?
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  #63  
Old 03-05-2008, 01:38 PM
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Hi Mart,

When doing those readings, would you mind posting the power factor readings on the meter too?
It was .02 Killowatt if that is what you mean...

I was thinking if only I could find a way to get this motor to produce heat, which seems really doable I would turn off the oil heater. That is why I was so interested in caviation of water.
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  #64  
Old 03-05-2008, 07:27 PM
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Power Factor

Hi Mart,

If you go through the options on the Kill A Watt meter, there is a power factor reading..should be something like .95 or something like that. If it is measuring the input and the motor is running very efficient, it should be up high like that. 1.0 would be "perfect" like a resistive load for example.

If there is some radiant energy effect on the output where you might have current and no voltage for example (instead of voltage potential without current), you might have a 0.02 PF but I doubt that would be the power factor on the input from the wall.
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  #65  
Old 03-05-2008, 08:35 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Power Factor

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Ok, I took Peter's advice and I bought myself a kill -a watt meter.

What I found really surprized me.

The rotoverter ->

I was able to use only two caps to start the rotoverter but I had to have all the run caps on to do so.


It took about 9.6 to 11.5 Amps to start the motor.

Then after I shut off the start cap it dropped down to 2.46 Amps.
it was turning at 3512 RPM.
257 Watts is what the Kill -a Watt was reporting.
122.0 Volts supply voltage


I then hooked up the meter to my oil heater for a comparison.

It was pulling 12 Amps...


Then my fancy Vitamix blender at full speed 11 Amps.
( normally about 29,000 RPM ) this baby MOOOOOVES

----------------------------------------

I have not done the other means of improving performance yet, that is oiling the bearings, removing the fan etc.... But just an update...

Still have not got a battery to start it. I did some testing it stops when it draws 2 amps from source battery. I beleive I am tripping the inverter before it can pull the full amount... The inverter is rated at 2500 W 5000W peak.... I am thinking something is very wrong here I should be getting more out of the batteries than I have... my guess is to point the finger at the inverter.
Mart,

Yes, that "surprise" is your education moving rapidly in the direction of REALITY!!!!

Your Kill-A-Watt meter is over 99% accurate for all 60 hz, single phase power situations within its 1800 watt capacity. So, the Power Factor readout is there, if you push the right button. It will be a number between 0 (zero) and 1 (one), usually a decimal fraction, like .85 or something, and a little "PF" will show up on the screen.

In fact, the data you posted here says, that the WATTS reading is 257, and your voltage reading is 122 volts @ a current of 2.46 amps. So, the math says this: 122 volts X 2.46 amps = 300.12 VA. Real Watts is 257, so PF equals watts/VA = .85 PF. This should be verified by the meter. If you have to resort to (heaven forbid) reading the DIRECTIONS, we won't think less of you!

My preliminary suggestion is that you can still trim up the capacitor system to reduce input power still further. With the meter in the PF mode, keep switching caps in and out until you see a PF reading of .97 or better.

This is the point at which your capacitors are supplying all of the "reactive power" your motor needs, and the grid is supplying all of the "real power" the motor needs. The cost savings in running any electric motor this way, is that you do not ask the GRID to supply you with any reactive power.

Great Work

Peter
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  #66  
Old 03-06-2008, 01:39 AM
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Ok Ok Ok

Now I know what you are refering too.

Today I feel VERY blessed because I got a 1,000 amp battery ( commercial grade for $10.00 ) and at 12V, and RUNS THE RV with zero problem......

Hurray!

Now for what you asked for and more.

To power the inverter and the motor it took:

16 amps to start the motor Then floated 14.0 to 14.5 Amps

Battery starting voltage was 12.6 V

From the Killa watt

112.V

2.56 Amp

262 Watt

PF = .91

It is great that I can start this motor without using Grid powered AC! I can't imagine what a 1,000 Cold Amp batter will look like after it is conditioned on the SSG

Peter, I hope reality is good I may be getting 1/4 the power but I am thinking this baby sure could turn a generator easy

But the bad news to me is that my other batteries don't have much guts to them..... Oh well onward, ...... Ash and Peter, thanks for watching over me
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  #67  
Old 03-06-2008, 02:35 AM
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Hi Mart and Peter. The real fun happens when you put a Frequency drive on there. You can raise the Frequency then LOWER the capacitance, Peter will be able to explain why that is needed as its (i think) due to the resistance of the caps and higher frequency.

Then you get more then 1/4HP OUT but your still in .91 PF! mode!

We did a test with this fancy inverter which you can find in the compilation (energy saver) and raised the freq, the RV mode remained the same.

If you have a powerful enough inverter drive, (and didn't melt the slip) you could get close to the rated HP out of that motor you have and still PF correct it to the needs of the load.

Now this fancy inverter is just right for the RV. It has an on board secondary battery that is about 4amps, (which is around what the RV takes when idle)

When un loaded(variable load) it uses the on board bat, When you load the RV it charges from the BEMF. All open sourced and in the comps, if you look for the Frequency Gen VIDEO test on the RV page , you can see the PM DC motor we used in the Freq drive test. We didn't have enough Freq to raise it up to 5,000 RPM to get power out of the PM DC gen, but we are building one for that ATM and will do the hard work for you guys and post.

Now Aaron was asking me about whats the best and recommended and comparisons of comps etc, i will be posting here if Mart lets me the recommended advanced stuff and the most promising, i have to put it all in a compilation for all and will get on to it in the next week.

Aaron we need 98 hours in the day, can you write a book on how to do that next Bro
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  #68  
Old 03-06-2008, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtweth View Post
Hi Mart and Peter. The real fun happens when you put a Frequency drive on there. You can raise the Frequency then LOWER the capacitance, Peter will be able to explain why that is needed as its (i think) due to the resistance of the caps and higher frequency.

Then you get more then 1/4HP OUT but your still in .91 PF! mode!

We did a test with this fancy inverter which you can find in the compilation (energy saver) and raised the freq, the RV mode remained the same.

If you have a powerful enough inverter drive, (and didn't melt the slip) you could get close to the rated HP out of that motor you have and still PF correct it to the needs of the load.

Now this fancy inverter is just right for the RV. It has an on board secondary battery that is about 4amps, (which is around what the RV takes when idle)

When un loaded(variable load) it uses the on board bat, When you load the RV it charges from the BEMF. All open sourced and in the comps, if you look for the Frequency Gen VIDEO test on the RV page , you can see the PM DC motor we used in the Freq drive test. We didn't have enough Freq to raise it up to 5,000 RPM to get power out of the PM DC gen, but we are building one for that ATM and will do the hard work for you guys and post.

Now Aaron was asking me about whats the best and recommended and comparisons of comps etc, i will be posting here if Mart lets me the recommended advanced stuff and the most promising, i have to put it all in a compilation for all and will get on to it in the next week.

Aaron we need 98 hours in the day, can you write a book on how to do that next Bro
I was talking with a friend of mine, he worked at GE motors for years built motors, he was telling me on airplanes they use different frequencies to run the motors there. He was telling me they made higher quality motors for airplaines cause... they just gotta work. Got me to thinking that Hector used to work on aircraft ... wondered if there was a connection. Anyways.. I am very interested in getting a modified inverter.

I was at the local "Harbor Frieght" and I saw a generator there with power outlets, it required only 1500 RPM to generate power, and had two outlets built in. That seemed very tempting to me to simply couple this prime mover to this ready made generator. It was $150.00 if I recall.. oh wait this is the web, let me find it..

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Well it was something like that... Actually that one is 3600 RPM... very close to what my motor is turning..... Very tempting to me... But the other one only needed 1500 RPM...

Am I crazy, but would this work?
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  #69  
Old 03-07-2008, 02:29 AM
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Hi Mart.

There are 3 guys i know of who have that gen and have RV'd a 40HP prime mover (on the EVGRAY group). They are still working on their custom inverters for it (which you will need). I know the principle will work, how? i have tested a DC PM gen on a prime mover and adjusted the Frequency and got more torque for the same energy.

I don't expect the draw figure to remain on there as the original value but i do expect it to remain PF corrected and the most torque for the least energy. What happens under load? you adjust your caps again and get less.


You could probably make your own generator for less Mart, i would look at the Fisher and Paykel ones (re enforce the plastic with steal), and or a PM generator on there which you could probably make for less then that HF genset.

Ash
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  #70  
Old 03-07-2008, 10:05 PM
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RE: the generator...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtweth View Post
Hi Mart.

There are 3 guys i know of who have that gen and have RV'd a 40HP prime mover (on the EVGRAY group). They are still working on their custom inverters for it (which you will need). I know the principle will work, how? i have tested a DC PM gen on a prime mover and adjusted the Frequency and got more torque for the same energy.

I don't expect the draw figure to remain on there as the original value but i do expect it to remain PF corrected and the most torque for the least energy. What happens under load? you adjust your caps again and get less.


You could probably make your own generator for less Mart, i would look at the Fisher and Paykel ones (re enforce the plastic with steal), and or a PM generator on there which you could probably make for less then that HF genset.

Ash
To me it seems simple to loop this ... Start with battery, generator starts then
switch power to generator. Is the output on this generator regulated? Don't know if you played with it directly.

But.. can also see coupling to another motor.. I just am trying to count the cost for best investment. .... I am looking outside at my large air conditioner, thinking man if I only had this motor in that unit for this summer.

Mart
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Old 03-07-2008, 10:15 PM
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More thoughts.

Ok...

I have 90V AC coming off the caps when I run the motor, i understand I can take that and charge batteries with it with a Bridge rectifier, and a transformer.

Makes me wish I had a HUGE Solid state SSG that I could charge all 8 of my batteries hooked in series.... so I would not have to have an transformer. ( to cut energy loss )

I am wondering if I pull this power off to charge batteries is this going to kill my power to the RV.... hmmm.
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  #72  
Old 03-07-2008, 10:57 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Off Topic

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Originally Posted by theremart View Post
To me it seems simple to loop this ... Start with battery, generator starts then
switch power to generator. Is the output on this generator regulated? Don't know if you played with it directly.

But.. can also see coupling to another motor.. I just am trying to count the cost for best investment. .... I am looking outside at my large air conditioner, thinking man if I only had this motor in that unit for this summer.

Mart
Mart,

As for saving money on your air conditioner this summer, you have everything you need. Just plug the air conditioner into your Kill-A-Watt meter, and read the Power Factor reading. The machine has a compressor and a fan motor. Put the right capacitors on each of these systems (inside the unit) until the PF is .98. You'll save a lot of money!

Power Factor Correction is universally applicable to AC induction equipment, not just 3-phase motors like the RV.

Peter
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  #73  
Old 03-07-2008, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post
Mart,

As for saving money on your air conditioner this summer, you have everything you need. Just plug the air conditioner into your Kill-A-Watt meter, and read the Power Factor reading. The machine has a compressor and a fan motor. Put the right capacitors on each of these systems (inside the unit) until the PF is .98. You'll save a lot of money!

Power Factor Correction is universally applicable to AC induction equipment, not just 3-phase motors like the RV.

Peter
Very interesting.... and if I get this down, I could also charge batteries when my AC runs. Might as well recover that energy. I am thinking Solid state SSG so I don't have to worry with a wheel....

Mart
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  #74  
Old 03-08-2008, 12:57 AM
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Peter is right as usual

We did a video to show this.
Basic RotoVerter demonstration on an air conditioner
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  #75  
Old 03-08-2008, 02:33 AM
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Rotoverter pitstop

Results after Cleaning bearings and adding duralube oil instead.

Amps 1.07
Volts 123.6
Watts 132
PF .98 to .99PF ( I tunned it a bit )
3509 RPM ( free spinning )


When running on Battery it pulls an average of 3.5 to 4.2 Amp at 12.2V

WOOOOOWW


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  #76  
Old 03-08-2008, 05:13 AM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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That didn't hurt, now did it?

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Originally Posted by theremart View Post
Results after Cleaning bearings and adding duralube oil instead.

Amps 1.07
Volts 123.6
Watts 132
PF .98 to .99PF ( I tunned it a bit )
3509 RPM ( free spinning )


When running on Battery it pulls an average of 3.5 to 4.2 Amp at 12.2V

WOOOOOWW


Mart,

Great work. Now you see how little it really takes to run the motor. You see, REALITY isn't bad at all!!

Peter
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Old 03-08-2008, 06:26 AM
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vacclaisocryptene

Great stuff Mart!

You mentioned an oil heater....I have a forced oil heat unit and the blower motor is one that I want to at least PF correct...and if there is something even more, that is what I'm looking for.

Either way, you mention duralube. Is that the duralube additive? True story...I drove from eastern washington to the coast at the washington and oregon border....and back...had duralube in and found out there was no oil in the car...had drained out and I drove like that for a couple hundred miles...from the last known time I did have oil in...oil filter broke somehow and everything drained out.

The duralube allowed the engine to run without overheating and without oil...just like shown in infomercials.

LONGTERM...it has some microencapsulated chlorine type molecules that will wear down, get out and eat anything that it can...seals, etc... not sure what materials might be there that it can eat on your setup, but bottom line is that stuff is a huge liability. AMSOil has good documentation on the stuff and what it does.

Anyway, vacclaisocryptene is the #1 most advanced (and one of the oldest) oil additives for the closest you can get to friction free oil lubrication as it was designed for the oil and gas production companies to begin with...and they do know what is best. Was a classified war secret for years but has been available commercial for quite some time.

It is something that I deal with because of the documentation behind it. I use it in my cars but I added a few drops of it with a few drops of electric motor oil to drop in my blower motor oil fill caps and it started to run quite a bit smoother and I know that there will never be negative effects from it.
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Old 03-08-2008, 11:29 AM
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Re: That did not hurt.

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Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post
Mart,

Great work. Now you see how little it really takes to run the motor. You see, REALITY isn't bad at all!!

Peter
He He Well I thought this would be much much worse than what I made this job to be. I could not get the bearing seals out, I did take the advice of a guy named Jean he simply sprayed the carb cleaner with the bearing standing up and let it drain through the small tiny gaps. I knew something was going right when I spun the bearing and it got faster, and faster. I could not wait till I got the motor back together

But I am thinking, I will need to keep adding oil to this on a regular basis if I was to run this 24 hours at a time. To bad there is no duralube grease.. Will have to experiment with different types. I am now going to try some duralube on my bearings in my SSG This should be interesting..
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Old 03-08-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Great stuff Mart!

You mentioned an oil heater....I have a forced oil heat unit and the blower motor is one that I want to at least PF correct...and if there is something even more, that is what I'm looking for.

Either way, you mention duralube. Is that the duralube additive? True story...I drove from eastern washington to the coast at the washington and oregon border....and back...had duralube in and found out there was no oil in the car...had drained out and I drove like that for a couple hundred miles...from the last known time I did have oil in...oil filter broke somehow and everything drained out.

The duralube allowed the engine to run without overheating and without oil...just like shown in infomercials.

LONGTERM...it has some microencapsulated chlorine type molecules that will wear down, get out and eat anything that it can...seals, etc... not sure what materials might be there that it can eat on your setup, but bottom line is that stuff is a huge liability. AMSOil has good documentation on the stuff and what it does.

Anyway, vacclaisocryptene is the #1 most advanced (and one of the oldest) oil additives for the closest you can get to friction free oil lubrication as it was designed for the oil and gas production companies to begin with...and they do know what is best. Was a classified war secret for years but has been available commercial for quite some time.

It is something that I deal with because of the documentation behind it. I use it in my cars but I added a few drops of it with a few drops of electric motor oil to drop in my blower motor oil fill caps and it started to run quite a bit smoother and I know that there will never be negative effects from it.
Thanks for sharing that... Yes it was the duralube additive, it was the only one I could find on the shelf, these oils are hard to find, I looked for excel plus, Krul, could not find them.
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Old 03-08-2008, 05:28 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Bearings, Grease, Carb Cleaner and More

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He He Well I thought this would be much much worse than what I made this job to be. I could not get the bearing seals out, I did take the advice of a guy named Jean he simply sprayed the carb cleaner with the bearing standing up and let it drain through the small tiny gaps. I knew something was going right when I spun the bearing and it got faster, and faster. I could not wait till I got the motor back together

But I am thinking, I will need to keep adding oil to this on a regular basis if I was to run this 24 hours at a time. To bad there is no duralube grease.. Will have to experiment with different types. I am now going to try some duralube on my bearings in my SSG This should be interesting..
Mart,

When applying Carb Cleaner to a stiff bearing, you want to spray just enough in to loosen it up. When grease sits around for a while, it tends to develop a thin film of material on it that is less slippery. The Carb cleaner can "dissolve" this outer layer so access to the rest of the grease below this layer becomes easier. You don't want to use so much Carb Cleaner that you remove most of the grease, just enough to soften it up. Then you don't have to worry about adding anything else. Also, since most of the grease is still in the bearing, it will redistribute itself properly when the bearing warms up in the first extended run of the motor. After that, (as the Aussie's say) "No problems, Mate!"

To further your understanding of the motor's operation, go to Harbor Freight and pick up a cheap Clamp-On Ammeter. With this, you can independently look at the current circulating in the section of the circuit that goes to the capacitors. Your Kill-A-Watt meter will tell you how many Amps are being drawn from the grid (Real Power), and the Clamp-On Ammeter will tell you how many Amps are circulation in the LC tank (Reactive Power). The combination of Real Power and Reactive Power is what is called Apparent Power, which is what runs the motor. When a motor is NOT Power Factor corrected, you have to buy ALL of the Apparent Power from the grid. When you add the proper capacitors to the circuit, they can provide the proper amount of Reactive Power (VARS) for your motor, and so the only thing the grid needs to supply is the Real Power (WATTS). The motor needs BOTH to run properly. There is no real ENERGY SAVINGS, as the motor is still running on the same amount of Apparent Power. But there is a COST SAVINGS involved in providing all of the necessary Reactive Power yourself.

I know you are in a hurry to run your RV from a battery, but if you slow down, and learn all of these fundamentals first by just running the motor from the grid, you'll make more rapid progress later because you will understand what is happening under "normal" circumstances.

Keep up the great work.

Peter
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Old 03-08-2008, 06:31 PM
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RE: Getting the basics..

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Mart,

When applying Carb Cleaner to a stiff bearing, you want to spray just enough in to loosen it up. When grease sits around for a while, it tends to develop a thin film of material on it that is less slippery. The Carb cleaner can "dissolve" this outer layer so access to the rest of the grease below this layer becomes easier. You don't want to use so much Carb Cleaner that you remove most of the grease, just enough to soften it up. Then you don't have to worry about adding anything else. Also, since most of the grease is still in the bearing, it will redistribute itself properly when the bearing warms up in the first extended run of the motor. After that, (as the Aussie's say) "No problems, Mate!"

To further your understanding of the motor's operation, go to Harbor Freight and pick up a cheap Clamp-On Ammeter. With this, you can independently look at the current circulating in the section of the circuit that goes to the capacitors. Your Kill-A-Watt meter will tell you how many Amps are being drawn from the grid (Real Power), and the Clamp-On Ammeter will tell you how many Amps are circulation in the LC tank (Reactive Power). The combination of Real Power and Reactive Power is what is called Apparent Power, which is what runs the motor. When a motor is NOT Power Factor corrected, you have to buy ALL of the Apparent Power from the grid. When you add the proper capacitors to the circuit, they can provide the proper amount of Reactive Power (VARS) for your motor, and so the only thing the grid needs to supply is the Real Power (WATTS). The motor needs BOTH to run properly. There is no real ENERGY SAVINGS, as the motor is still running on the same amount of Apparent Power. But there is a COST SAVINGS involved in providing all of the necessary Reactive Power yourself.

I know you are in a hurry to run your RV from a battery, but if you slow down, and learn all of these fundamentals first by just running the motor from the grid, you'll make more rapid progress later because you will understand what is happening under "normal" circumstances.

Keep up the great work.

Peter
I have an amp meter already and I that is what I was using to measure the amps I am pulling from the primary battery. I am learning that the batteries I thought I had restored are still not preforming up to par. ( will wait to see if the additive I ordered does them any good )

I am already running this RV from a battery Next I want it to run itself.

If I am missing any steps please let me know, understand I have a very basic understanding of electronics, and I am slowly getting up to speed.

So far I have taken a 5HP motor stripped it down to a 1 HP motor and tunned it. Capacitors are sorta like the motor having its own fridge so it does not have to goto the store ( grid ) to get power all the time.

So maybee I should let the motor run for 24 hours and see how it does... if there are any changes in the way it runs..

To do what you said, I should be measuring the amps at what part of the circuit, in between the caps? I guess I need a load on the caps maybee my 90 V Neo light? might do it.

Ahh back to programing my Pic to autoswap batteries my basic stamp came in ready to hands on program..
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Old 03-08-2008, 06:55 PM
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Arrow Friction

How much energy is wasted in RV or other motors to overcome air resistance?
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Old 03-08-2008, 07:54 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Slow Down

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I have an amp meter already and I that is what I was using to measure the amps I am pulling from the primary battery. I am learning that the batteries I thought I had restored are still not preforming up to par. ( will wait to see if the additive I ordered does them any good )

I am already running this RV from a battery Next I want it to run itself.

If I am missing any steps please let me know, understand I have a very basic understanding of electronics, and I am slowly getting up to speed.

So far I have taken a 5HP motor stripped it down to a 1 HP motor and tunned it. Capacitors are sorta like the motor having its own fridge so it does not have to goto the store ( grid ) to get power all the time.

So maybee I should let the motor run for 24 hours and see how it does... if there are any changes in the way it runs..

To do what you said, I should be measuring the amps at what part of the circuit, in between the caps? I guess I need a load on the caps maybee my 90 V Neo light? might do it.

Ahh back to programing my Pic to autoswap batteries my basic stamp came in ready to hands on program..
Mart,

Slow down. The ideas in your mind are running way ahead of your understanding!! I am NOT talking about adding a load to the electrical circuit anywhere. I am not talking about an Ammeter that is connected directly to the wiring. I am not talking about what is happening to your RV running from the battery and inverter.

FIRST, this machine is NOT going to run itself, no matter what you do! Period. End of story. This motor operates on Faraday's direct INDUCTION principle and is still WASTING 95% of its input electricity to the losses of Back EMF (internally generated reverse voltage in the windings). The RV motor, all by itself, is still an UNDER-UNITY machine. Your activities, so far, have reduced all of the other wasted energy in the motor, including bearing friction and recirculating the Reactive Power locally in your capacitors. However, there is NOTHING you can do to get rid of the internally generated Back EMF. This is an event that is generated INSIDE the motor windings and stays INSIDE the motor windings. It is NOT reflected anywhere outside the motor.

That is what the EMS forum is all about; building a different design of motor that doesn't have this problem in the first place.

Please post the current schematic of your motor as it is configured right now. Show all of the wires exactly as they are hooked up, without any "common ground" nomenclature or any other abbreviations. When you post the schematic, I will tell you where to put the meter.

Go to Harbor Freight and buy a Clamp-On Ammeter: Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

With this meter you can measure currents in wires that you do not have to disconnect.

I know you are excited, but SLOW means taking deliberate steps, and moving from knowledge to knowledge in each step. SLOW is actually the fastest way that works!!!

Peter
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Old 03-08-2008, 07:58 PM
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aladinlamp aladinlamp is offline
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Arrow

Is there any european version of kill-a-watt for 50hz - 240V grid?
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Old 03-08-2008, 08:21 PM
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theremart theremart is offline
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RE: Question about 50 hz

Quote:
Originally Posted by aladinlamp View Post
Is there any european version of kill-a-watt for 50hz - 240V grid?
Yes I do believe so Ash was doing one in Aussie land where they had 50 hz.

Ash would be the one who can answer that question better.. He is the master of this, or at least the communicator of this device
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Old 03-08-2008, 08:47 PM
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theremart theremart is offline
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Re: Next steps..

>Slow down. The ideas in your mind are running way ahead of your >understanding!! I am NOT talking about adding a load to the electrical circuit >anywhere. I am not talking about an Ammeter that is connected directly to >the wiring. I am not talking about what is happening to your RV running from >the battery and inverter.

Yep I own this meter as I was trying to explain to you before, ( sorry I am not the worlds best comunicator I am a geek

Digital Snap-Around Volt-Amp Meter with Free 2008 Doctor Watts Shirt-Pocket Electrical Guide - Mfg# DSA-500




>FIRST, this machine is NOT going to run itself, no matter what you do! >Period. End of story. This motor operates on Faraday's direct INDUCTION >principle and is still WASTING 95% of its input electricity to the losses of >Back EMF (internally generated reverse voltage in the windings). The RV >motor, all by itself, is still an UNDER-UNITY machine. Your activities, so far, >have reduced all of the other wasted energy in the motor, including bearing >friction and recirculating the Reactive Power locally in your capacitors. >However, there is NOTHING you can do to get rid of the internally generated >Back EMF. This is an event that is generated INSIDE the motor windings and >stays INSIDE the motor windings. It is NOT reflected anywhere outside the >motor.

Ok, my target is to emulate what Hector has done with his looped system, I may be calling it the wrong thing, but I watched his video of his motor running another generator then it was looped to itself. I understand that this motor by itself should not be able to power itself, I am targeting my next steps..


>That is what the EMS forum is all about; building a different design of motor >that doesn't have this problem in the first place.

Yes, I see that, and I have been counting the cost of making my rotor square
verses leaving it the way it is and doing hectors method. Both of you have means of harnessing the energy, and I respect you both, I am just trying to get my brain around both of your methods and see which one will work for me.

To do your method, I was considering buying an small DC motor with tight fittings as you prescribe and making the rotor square and cutting off the coils.

The method I am exploring here is first building the basic Rotoverter

Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea - PESWiki

( Prime mover first )

Then moving on to a generator, either this coupled to another motor, ( rewired to be a generator, or a generator proper from harbor frieght )

Then thinking about taking the output from the genertor to feed either the prime mover, or a set of batteries that can be swapped with the prime mover batteries.

Then considering doing Hectors setup...

virtual circulating current with RotoVerter by Hector


>Please post the current schematic of your motor as it is configured right >now. Show all of the wires exactly as they are hooked up, without any >"common ground" nomenclature or any other abbreviations. When you post >the schematic, I will tell you where to put the meter.

This is the link to the schematic setup I have now..

http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/RVcircuit.JPG



>Go to Harbor Freight and buy a Clamp-On Ammeter: >Harbor >Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

>With this meter you can measure currents in wires that you do not have to >disconnect.

I believe the meter that I have matches this meter, I am right?
Digital Snap-Around Volt-Amp Meter with Free 2008 Doctor Watts Shirt-Pocket Electrical Guide - Mfg# DSA-500

>I know you are excited, but SLOW means taking deliberate steps, and moving >from knowledge to knowledge in each step. SLOW is actually the fastest >way that works!!!


Yes, that is why I am looking at all my alternatives for a generator before I invest. I like the harbor freight generator because it has all the circuitry built in with fuses for overload protection. If I use another motor as my generator I will have to build my own circuit to make it work.

The next step from what I hear from Ash may be building a better inverter that can give me more HP out of the motor, and less current.

Peter, I do value your input, and thanks for being patient with a mad scientists as me he he
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Old 03-08-2008, 11:43 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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OK

[QUOTE=theremart;17155]>Slow down. The ideas in your mind are running way ahead of your >understanding!! I am NOT talking about adding a load to the electrical circuit >anywhere. I am not talking about an Ammeter that is connected directly to >the wiring. I am not talking about what is happening to your RV running from >the battery and inverter.

Yep I own this meter as I was trying to explain to you before, ( sorry I am not the worlds best comunicator I am a geek

Digital Snap-Around Volt-Amp Meter with Free 2008 Doctor Watts Shirt-Pocket Electrical Guide - Mfg# DSA-500

The method I am exploring here is first building the basic Rotoverter

Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:Panacea - PESWiki

Then considering doing Hectors setup...

virtual circulating current with RotoVerter by Hector

Mart,

Yes, your Clamp-On meter is just fine. The video of Hector is a perfect example of why I believe what I do. He is showing that the RV motor side is running on 175 WATTS of Real Power, and the generator side is producing 208 volts and 7.6 amps, or 1508 VARS of Reactive Power, measured to and from the Capacitor load on the generator. He refers to this as "circulating current" which is exactly what it is. This film shows ZERO WATTS of Real Power coming out of the generator.

Reactive Power does NOT produce any Back EMF in the generator, so the motor is still operating at, essentially, no load. There is no way (shown here) to use the power from the generator to run the motor. I am not trying to be a "pain in the ass", I am trying to help you form a clear picture in your mind of what is possible and what is not.

We all agree that Ash is the RV Master here. So I ask you, Ash, how many "fully self-running" RV motor/generators have you seen in your life? What am I missing here?

Peter
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Old 03-09-2008, 12:58 AM
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Ok...

This is what I got from Hector for next steps...

I may of misunderstood Hector, as he is hard to follow as he like Tesla has his own way of saying things. I do see what Hector has works, so I will work to understand him.

------------------------

You can try looping the Capacitor phase power back to inverter 12V
side ... (remember Reactive components must be 90 degrees from each
other (series) or in phase with capacitor bridge coupling .

transformer 120VAC primary to 12-12 18.9 0r 24V secundary

diode bridge low voltage secundary to feed DC buss at battery side

with care not overdrive overvoltage inverter to death (burn it)

can try semy resonating other phases as well in tripleflux mode
and feed back power in same way ..

Find more info on LOOPED lawnmower experiments ....
Diode Plug , kone recovery circuits ..

Alternator can also be used or Efficient PM generator (Check Norman
Wootan RV test readings , check Kones Torque RV readings ..

Concentrate on 2 issues , tuning & efficiency .

Hector
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Old 03-09-2008, 05:33 PM
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esaruoho esaruoho is offline
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[QUOTE=Peter Lindemann;17173]
Quote:
Originally Posted by theremart View Post
Then considering doing Hectors setup...
virtual circulating current with RotoVerter by Hector

The video of Hector is a perfect example of why I believe what I do. He is showing that the RV motor side is running on 175 WATTS of Real Power, and the generator side is producing 208 volts and 7.6 amps, or 1508 VARS of Reactive Power, measured to and from the Capacitor load on the generator. He refers to this as "circulating current" which is exactly what it is. This film shows ZERO WATTS of Real Power coming out of the generator.
Peter
peter, could you somehow "draw"what this reactive power looks like? i see all these reactive power recovery circuits being suggested for recovering some of the resonance, the connection between these diode recovery circuits and the bedini sine wave clip ping circuit,
people are doing those fullw ave bridge rectification things, i see sinewaves with only the top or the bottom, out of phase, etc, etc.
but it appears that they are extracting a small amount of the reactive power without stopping the process, i.e., not robbing the motor but skimming off a little bit of the cream.
im seeing a neon peak recovery circuit provided by david kousolides
Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:NeonPeak - PESWiki
theres also a hector diode recovery circuit
.. and others. surely there is a method to this mayhem, a connection between bedini's reactive power recovery circuits and another viewpoint from the RV by extracting resonance or reactive power or what it is.

it appears to this musician that they aren't necessarily only using the motors to run, but instead to extract the reactive power and the resonance and the tuning. i'ev seen this mentioned, peripherally, in a few other inventions, but it appears to go into tech build jargon very quickly. ive not yet seen a layman explanation of the "resonance clipping" or "reactive power recovery", but i know its coming, it has to be. too many people are moving on from merely getting energy savings from these contraptions.

i saw this on a little page on the "resonant power extraction circuit", it starts with:
" Power Extraction from Resonance - Sometimes we need the circuits to extract power from resonance or virtual reactive power circulation. Sometimes just to limit the voltage growth in a BEMF collection capacitor. "
"Hector's claims that the resonance holds the radiant energy circulation - where we can extract a large portion of it without stopping the resonance.
(Quote) A simple LC has a DECAY value in time; the only energy you need to supply is the one lost to decay, as if the system source were a negative inductor to LC (as in the case of RV alternator). Normal entropy decay is 0.618 of 1.618 as logarithmic time receding signal (search for Seike work in ultra-relativity concepts), so the gain is also in atropic system of 1.618 where frequency increase in octaves may increase amplification by a factor of 3.141592 where the spiral resonant circular projection can be expressed in a 12,000 4d polygon structure (as similar to double helix DNA structure - reason human system is OU by all definitions). Remember LOGARITHMIC SPIRALS ORBITAL DECAY PATH IS RELATIVE to gravity as SIGNAL DECAY OR GAIN IS RELATIVE TO LC Q and parameters in a working ZPE system.

It can be done either way, using a reactance to charge a cap, or discharge a cap in a reactive circuit; the resonant condition creates a logarithmic path where VAR power is created and carries a magnetic amplification component with it.

(End quote)"

please could you, well, erm, be the voice of reason, and react?
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Old 03-09-2008, 07:23 PM
Peter Lindemann Peter Lindemann is offline
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Voice of Reason

[QUOTE=esaruoho;17204]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Lindemann View Post

peter, could you somehow "draw"what this reactive power looks like? i see all these reactive power recovery circuits being suggested for recovering some of the resonance, the connection between these diode recovery circuits and the bedini sine wave clip ping circuit,
people are doing those fullw ave bridge rectification things, i see sinewaves with only the top or the bottom, out of phase, etc, etc.
but it appears that they are extracting a small amount of the reactive power without stopping the process, i.e., not robbing the motor but skimming off a little bit of the cream.
im seeing a neon peak recovery circuit provided by david kousolides
Directory:Rotoverter:Replications:NeonPeak - PESWiki
theres also a hector diode recovery circuit
.. and others. surely there is a method to this mayhem, a connection between bedini's reactive power recovery circuits and another viewpoint from the RV by extracting resonance or reactive power or what it is.

it appears to this musician that they aren't necessarily only using the motors to run, but instead to extract the reactive power and the resonance and the tuning. i'ev seen this mentioned, peripherally, in a few other inventions, but it appears to go into tech build jargon very quickly. ive not yet seen a layman explanation of the "resonance clipping" or "reactive power recovery", but i know its coming, it has to be. too many people are moving on from merely getting energy savings from these contraptions.

i saw this on a little page on the "resonant power extraction circuit", it starts with:
" Power Extraction from Resonance - Sometimes we need the circuits to extract power from resonance or virtual reactive power circulation. Sometimes just to limit the voltage growth in a BEMF collection capacitor. "
"Hector's claims that the resonance holds the radiant energy circulation - where we can extract a large portion of it without stopping the resonance.
(Quote) A simple LC has a DECAY value in time; the only energy you need to supply is the one lost to decay, as if the system source were a negative inductor to LC (as in the case of RV alternator). Normal entropy decay is 0.618 of 1.618 as logarithmic time receding signal (search for Seike work in ultra-relativity concepts), so the gain is also in atropic system of 1.618 where frequency increase in octaves may increase amplification by a factor of 3.141592 where the spiral resonant circular projection can be expressed in a 12,000 4d polygon structure (as similar to double helix DNA structure - reason human system is OU by all definitions). Remember LOGARITHMIC SPIRALS ORBITAL DECAY PATH IS RELATIVE to gravity as SIGNAL DECAY OR GAIN IS RELATIVE TO LC Q and parameters in a working ZPE system.

It can be done either way, using a reactance to charge a cap, or discharge a cap in a reactive circuit; the resonant condition creates a logarithmic path where VAR power is created and carries a magnetic amplification component with it.

(End quote)"

please could you, well, erm, be the voice of reason, and react?
Dear esaruoho,

Thank you for this post and the link to the "neon peak recovery circuit". THIS APPROACH HAS MERIT!!!!! Going back to what I posted about Tesla's "Method of Conversion", clipping the VOLTAGE PEAK of a resonant tank created by an AC generator feeding a Capacitive load, IS the first method he discusses. The trick is to clip the top of the voltage rise JUST AS THE CURRENT DROPS TO THE ZERO POINT. In a 60 cycle system, that gives you about a millisecond to clip. Under these circumstances, this system WOULD tap Radiant Energy (voltage without current) just as Hector apparently claims.

The discussion about "false triggering" of the SCR's is interesting. My guess would be that the "false triggering" is coming from the neon bulb more than the SCR. 50% failure rate on a commercially available semi-conductor device seems excessive.

There may be simpler circuits that accomplish this in a more reliable way.

Thank you, again for posting this. I now see that there is more to the RV project than just Power Factor Correcting a 3-phase motor. This recovery process will work in ANY situation where an AC generator is supplying Reactive Power to a capacitive load.

Good luck with your experiments!

Peter
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