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  #1  
Old 11-29-2007, 05:47 PM
sykavy sykavy is offline
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Iron vs. Steel in attraction motor

I was advised to start this thread because I opened up a can of worms about the use of pure iron in contrast to steel.

I have limited knowledge of most of the parts that make up an attraction motor but I'm trying to understand the basics.

From my reading on the subject of metal, iron holds magnetism only mtemporarily, while steel holds it permanently. I don't understand why this is.

I am interested in recreating the Teal motor based on the info in Peter Lindemann's DVD on the Secret of Electric Motors.

I have already wound my coil and am now in the process of making a magnetic keeper around the coil based on the drawings found in the DVD (above).

A friend of mine is willing to cast the parts I need all I have to do is sculpt it in foam rubber.


I'm going to have two parts to cover the coil. I'll put a lip to screw the thing together around the coil.
I was thinking of the iron piston to have a small hole down the center to place a steel rod because it is stronger than cast iron. Would this small amount of steel magnetize the iron eventually?

Whoever wants to comment feel free.
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Last edited by sykavy; 11-29-2007 at 05:51 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:54 PM
Jan H Jan H is offline
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cast iron can be just as strong as steel (or stronger), only it is less flexible.
The big diffrence is carbon content. Also important is the way the carbon is distributed througout the iron, simplified there is two types of cast iron,

laminair cast iron, wich can absorb shocks/vibrations, this is due to the lammellated distribution of carbon.

Nodular Cast iron, where the carbon has formed little globules, this type is much stronger, but also harder (more brittle) elasticity to 900N/mm^2
compared to normal steel wich is only 235N/mm^2

I'm sure your friend is capable of casting iron, but i doubt he has the means of controlling the process to an industrial degree (or even get close)

I'm also still wondering what creates the magnetic properties of a metal, a question i asked earlier, but did not get answered.

I think i can help you a bit with the mechanics and metallurgy, I have tons of books from a previous study, so feel free to ask
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:05 PM
sykavy sykavy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan H View Post
cast iron can be just as strong as steel (or stronger), only it is less flexible.
The big diffrence is carbon content. Also important is the way the carbon is distributed througout the iron, simplified there is two types of cast iron,

laminair cast iron, wich can absorb shocks/vibrations, this is due to the lammellated distribution of carbon.

Nodular Cast iron, where the carbon has formed little globules, this type is much stronger, but also harder (more brittle) elasticity to 900N/mm^2
compared to normal steel wich is only 235N/mm^2

I'm sure your friend is capable of casting iron, but i doubt he has the means of controlling the process to an industrial degree (or even get close)

I'm also still wondering what creates the magnetic properties of a metal, a question i asked earlier, but did not get answered.

I think i can help you a bit with the mechanics and metallurgy, I have tons of books from a previous study, so feel free to ask

Thanks for the support. My friend is a metals artist so I think he can be pretty accurate if he wants to. For what I need I don't think it has to be soooo accurate. Except for the air gap of the piston. Right now it is in the experimental stage. One needs to start somewhere and then correct.

So you think the iron maybe strong enough to work as a solid piston and rod to the crank shaft?

Here is some stuff about magnets that may help. I'm still not sure the difference but these sources and Peter say the same thing that steel tends to hold its magnetism more:

GCSE SCIENCE PHYSICS HIGH SCHOOL - Electromagnetism - Coil - Magnetic Field Strength - Soft Iron - Steel - gcsescience.com.
Main accuracy will be in the air gap of the piston.

How Things Work - Question 940
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Old 12-01-2007, 06:16 PM
Jan H Jan H is offline
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i am absolutely sure that good quality cast iron is strong enough. what you will have to figure out is lubrication

you still have 2 rubbing faces together, wich wil ultimately damage and ruin your cylinder and piston, a constant pressure oil system will be the only way to keep your system intact.

also crankshaft balancing will become important at higher rpm's. otherwise your whole machine will dance across your workbench. Or you could just use a chainsaw crankshaft and driving rod.

any way you look at it, this is going to be hard to make in a decent way, it requires fantastic machining skills.
Do you know what you are getting yourself into?
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Old 12-02-2007, 02:25 AM
sykavy sykavy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan H View Post
i am absolutely sure that good quality cast iron is strong enough. what you will have to figure out is lubrication

you still have 2 rubbing faces together, wich wil ultimately damage and ruin your cylinder and piston, a constant pressure oil system will be the only way to keep your system intact.

also crankshaft balancing will become important at higher rpm's. otherwise your whole machine will dance across your workbench. Or you could just use a chainsaw crankshaft and driving rod.

any way you look at it, this is going to be hard to make in a decent way, it requires fantastic machining skills.
Do you know what you are getting yourself into?
No I don't know what Im getting myself into but a hobby is supposed to be a challenge.

Sure there will be problems but if I attack a project full of enthusiasm then it is half done.

Everything is difficult, and if we wait for things to be perfect we will do nothing and we will only end-up ripping down others who at least do something. Even if it fails, I have to learn something!! that I can pass on to someone else! It is never a waste Those who try are better for trying, than those who don't and only discourage others

" Of all the sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these: 'oh, it might have been.' "

thanks for the advice on the lubrication point!!! and chainsaw idea
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:43 PM
Jan H Jan H is offline
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well with your mind set like that, GO FOR IT.

you've got my support

i'm looking forward to what you come up with!
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Old 12-11-2007, 06:51 PM
sykavy sykavy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan H View Post
well with your mind set like that, GO FOR IT.

you've got my support

i'm looking forward to what you come up with!
Thanks for the moral support!

I'm in finals now but Ill be working on my model during the Christmas break. Also my friend won't be able to cast it until the spring but slow and steady will win the race(Ihope )
ciao for now
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Old 12-11-2007, 11:01 PM
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gabriolaman gabriolaman is offline
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i like motor style your working on i cant wait to see some pics
Good luck with your work
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Old 03-13-2008, 01:16 AM
sykavy sykavy is offline
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Looks like my artist friend didn't come through on his part of the bargin. He has moved away from the city. Im still hopeful to do the piston motor but now I have to figure out another way I am realy frustred by were I live. I share my place and have no real tools or space to do any experiments, plus school work.
Oh well where there is a will there is a way. I'm going to get this done sooner or later.

Here is some inspiration for me:

Reciprocating Electric Motor

comment on video:

He said it is connected to a condenser (see his reply on the bottom of the page.) I think that means a compressor. I think it is at the botom of the stroke. Notice there is what looks like a small cylinder out of it there is a tube that goes to the top of the piston container. He says it helps to run it cooler. That is why it has the fin design too (Very cool and stylish , which is one reason I like this design to the rotary.)
It is good to know there is a heat problem. Teal also had compressors in his patent maybe they were used to cool the pistons. I wonder if this guy in the video would used a tri-filar or quard-filar in parallel it wouldn't get so hot but would have the same pull (magnetism)?
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Last edited by sykavy; 03-13-2008 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 03-13-2008, 02:10 AM
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Aaron Aaron is offline
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solenoid motor

Mervace, I posted about him recently and his pendulum motor...has a solenoid video like this:
YouTube - Solenoid motor with electronic control
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Old 03-13-2008, 03:10 AM
sykavy sykavy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
Mervace, I posted about him recently and his pendulum motor...has a solenoid video like this:
YouTube - Solenoid motor with electronic control
Thanks Aaron that looks more like something I would make.
But my question above about quad-filar coil running cooler with the same amount of magnetic pull, is this correct? Wouldn't there be less resistance?
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