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  #1  
Old 06-25-2013, 01:39 AM
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Hrothgar Hrothgar is offline
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Post The Solenoid/Electromagnet

It occurs to me that the solenoid has been around for nearly 200 years. Yet I can't seem to find any evidence that anyone has made significant improvements on it in that time. It needs more attention as it eventually becomes a tool any any inventor/DIY's repertoire and I would like that attention to be shown here. Experiments, experience and ideas to help those such as myself who have had zero practical experience in electromagnetism, But who really want to learn as a good solenoid can be crucial to an experiment or project.

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Old 06-25-2013, 02:07 AM
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Hi Hrothgar, Do you mean just a solenoid type of coil or a solenoid as in a
device for actuating some mechanical apparatus ?

I think a "Solenoid" is just a close wound helical coil. And depending on the
behavior wanted from it depends on how it is made in general. A solenoid can
be used as a converter, like in a boost converter and it's only purpose is to
store energy then discharge it, as a voltage converter. Or a solenoid can be
for an actuator for a valve, or it can be for a Tesla coil, three quite different
uses and the winding types differ accordingly.

Boost converter coils are wound usually on a ferrous core and made so that
they are compatible with a certain frequency. These don't have to be
solenoids but many are.

Actuator solenoids are more of an electromagnet wound for force and current
considerations.

Tesla coils can be single layer solenoids wound to produce a high voltage at a
certain frequency.

Boost converter with synchronous rectification can be well over 90% efficient.
There isn't really much to improve on. Can you be more specific about your thoughts ?

Solenoid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
In physics, the term refers specifically to a long, thin loop of wire, often wrapped around a metallic core, which produces a uniform magnetic field in a volume of space (where some experiment might be carried out) when an electric current is passed through it. Solenoids are important because they can create controlled magnetic fields and can be used as electromagnets.
Cheers
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:40 AM
chainmailleman chainmailleman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar View Post
It occurs to me that the solenoid has been around for nearly 200 years. Yet I can't seem to find any evidence that anyone has made significant improvements on it in that time. It needs more attention as it eventually becomes a tool any any inventor/DIY's repertoire and I would like that attention to be shown here. Experiments, experience and ideas to help those such as myself who have had zero practical experience in electromagnetism, But who really want to learn as a good solenoid can be crucial to an experiment or project.

Patent US512340 - NIKOLA TESLA - Google Patents

Nikola Tesla patent 512340

I've been advocating this particular "improvement" for some time for particularly efficient electric motors using magnetic attraction. If you take a coil with the same number of turns, and compare it to this configuration using the same power supply, you will find this coil design produces a much stronger field for the same applied power (about 75% gain).

These coils also store much larger amounts of energy in the electric field, which causes huge current spikes (amperage = change in the electric field/time) along with huge voltage spikes (voltage = change in the magnetic field/time) when the power is "Abruptly Disrupted".

......said too much
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:00 PM
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Thumbs up So much for me being original

Well Chain, looking at the patent I see why it's an improvement as the coil b. acts as gears working with each other if you picture the direction of the flux spinning around the wire. figure a. being a standard coil has every flux orbit in a state of reluctance with the ones adjacent to it.

Does it run cooler?
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:04 PM
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Hi farmhand

I am referring to the area of understanding & building electromagnets in general. How to and why.
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:35 PM
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Is not the essence of a solenoid (as opposed to an electromagnet)
that there is a core which can push or pull and actuate things?

If so, how would a pancake coil be engineered to do this?
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:46 PM
chainmailleman chainmailleman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar View Post
Well Chain, looking at the patent I see why it's an improvement as the coil b. acts as gears working with each other if you picture the direction of the flux spinning around the wire. figure a. being a standard coil has every flux orbit in a state of reluctance with the ones adjacent to it.

Does it run cooler?
A coil will heat up if it produces a magnetic field (stator) in opposition to another magnetic field (rotor). When you smash two opposing fields together, alot of heat is produced, much akin to slamming two cars together head on.

Heating due to ohmic resistance will also play a factor, but the heat generated is minimal compared to a rotating induction motor.

Things will stay cool if your motor/generator is not fighting itself with Back EMF.

Back EMF is EMF generated in OPPOSITION to the APPLIED EMF.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
Is not the essence of a solenoid (as opposed to an electromagnet)
that there is a core which can push or pull and actuate things?

If so, how would a pancake coil be engineered to do this?
Actually you can do the same thing around a rod if it is only wrapped in one layer of wire. After that it gets tricky.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:03 PM
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Post Cool Runnings

So yes generally it runs cooler than it's contemporary counterpart given the same operating conditions.
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:17 PM
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All the fallacies about Tesla's COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS are put to bed in
this thread at OU.com. The patent is deciphered.

Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".

There is no extra magnetization force from a serial connected bifilar coil is the
same amount of wire and turns is used as compared to a normal coil.

The experiments have been done by those who want to to prove it to ourselves..

The patent covers all coils not just pancakes. READ THE PATENT, and the
thread. It's worth it.

Please just ignore the posts by Synchro and Milehigh, they are extremists.

The truth of the matter is that some quite smart people could not decipher
the patent, I think i nailed a couple of the main points.

Cheers

P.S. Here is the claims of the patent and my understanding of it below.

Quote:
Tesla's Claims in the patent are correct that is the main thing.

Quote
Quote:
What I claim as my invention is

1. A coil for electric apparatus the adjacent
convolutions of which form parts of the
circuit between which there exists a potential 45
difference sufficient to secure in the coil a capacity
capable of neutralizing its self induction as hereinbefore described
.

2. A coil composed of contiguous or adjacent
insulated conductors electrically connected 50
in series and having a potential difference of
such value as to give to the coil as a whole a
capacity sufficient to neutralize its self induction
as set forth
. NIKOLA TESLA
Here is what I think the claims are saying. If the voltage is too low, then the distance between the capacitor "plates" is too great for the capacity to be effectively used.
ie. If the conductors have insulation 5 mm thick then using 1 volt won't utilize the capacity very well and the capacity will not then contribute to the lowering of the resonance frequency. Kinda like trying to use 1 volt with a HV parallel plate air capacitor with 10 mm spacing between the plates, it won't work very well.

It makes sense to me.

Weather or not the coil is special is not a concern to me. The patent claims are correct and I think that is what he means when he says the words in bold above.

Rather than trying to argue angles or such things why not just take the claims and find if they are correct or not. Tesla's patents do not need to be dismissed or defended if they are making claims that are true. Simple. Any claims not made by Tesla are other peoples making.
..
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:36 AM
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I noticed it wasn't a single layer like in the patent

I noticed you used multiple layers of wire given the description. It seems to me it would be nearly impossible to keep a consistent resistance free configuration after the first layer. I don't think Tesla needs defending as Epic Rap battles of History on you-tube have done that quite nicely.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:17 AM
chainmailleman chainmailleman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmhand View Post
There is no extra magnetization force from a serial connected bifilar coil is the
same amount of wire and turns is used as compared to a normal coil.

The experiments have been done by those who want to to prove it to ourselves..

..
I wish to openly challenge this statement. Unfortunately the video I was wishing to provide showing an experiment proving that the coil does create a stronger field per watt, has been made private. I do have the video saved on my hard drive, although I think if I upload it, I will be violating copywrite as it is not my material. I have replicated the experiment and have come up with the same conclusion using a 12 volt power supply, a 15 ohm 5 watt resistor, and various coils in different configurations all containing the exact same amount of copper wire.

P.S. I did read the patent many, many times. I have not "deciphered" it incorrectly. Tesla doesn't really mention magnetism even though it's part of the title. The claims of a stronger field per watt are coming from me. I don't know where you gathered that I was claiming Tesla.
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Old 06-26-2013, 09:46 AM
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Lot of questions ....Well, maybe both statement are true ? Insulation of ordinary enamelled wire is tiny and thus voltage required to use distributed capacitance is low, I think.
Does this distributed capacitance always correctly interacts with the inductance of this coil ? Why and how ? Does the magnetic field produced is bigger when DC current is applied of some pulsating DC of certain frequency ?

If that happen surely it will give more power to the created magnetic field, which is in other cases consumed into resistance heating. In such case pancake bifilar coil wound be essentially close to room temperature superconductor or self-adjusted tank circuit at resonance.

Can we isolate the reason why magnetic field from such coil is stronger ????
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Old 06-26-2013, 11:51 AM
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I have never understood the pancake coil but thought
it was about Tesla's high voltage high frequency work,
and a coil which generated a good magnetic field
without the inductance that interferes with HV/HF
circuits. Is this right?
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:42 PM
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Flippin pancakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
I have never understood the pancake coil but thought
it was about Tesla's high voltage high frequency work,
and a coil which generated a good magnetic field
without the inductance that interferes with HV/HF
circuits. Is this right?
The pancake coil itself may have been illustrated mainly for communication, the visual of the wire turning back on itself is probably easier to understand this way.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:59 PM
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devils in the details

Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
Lot of questions ....Well, maybe both statement are true ? Insulation of ordinary enamelled wire is tiny and thus voltage required to use distributed capacitance is low, I think.
Does this distributed capacitance always correctly interacts with the inductance of this coil ? Why and how ? Does the magnetic field produced is bigger when DC current is applied of some pulsating DC of certain frequency ?

If that happen surely it will give more power to the created magnetic field, which is in other cases consumed into resistance heating. In such case pancake bifilar coil wound be essentially close to room temperature superconductor or self-adjusted tank circuit at resonance.

Can we isolate the reason why magnetic field from such coil is stronger ????
I can think of 3 types of heat gain:
1. material resistance, unavoidable having to use some non conductors in any design.
2. workload, whether from the resistance of the work load or materials in the workload otherwise the gears(flux) are free-wheeling and useless to us(with current technology).
3. poor design, having individual coils aligned to induce reluctance for no purpose, or the orientation of the coils to cancel work done even though they do not interfere with each other directly.

I believe a finely tuned/designed a coil can have a tighter stronger flux if aligned properly like a north/south halbach. Or a looser general field. These modifications would require very precise latices with magnetically resistive and conductive layering.
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Old 06-26-2013, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post
Lot of questions ....Well, maybe both statement are true ? Insulation of ordinary enamelled wire is tiny and thus voltage required to use distributed capacitance is low, I think.
Does this distributed capacitance always correctly interacts with the inductance of this coil ? Why and how ? Does the magnetic field produced is bigger when DC current is applied of some pulsating DC of certain frequency ?

If that happen surely it will give more power to the created magnetic field, which is in other cases consumed into resistance heating. In such case pancake bifilar coil wound be essentially close to room temperature superconductor or self-adjusted tank circuit at resonance.

Can we isolate the reason why magnetic field from such coil is stronger ????
Honestly, I don't know why the field is stronger. I notice that when the power is applied there is a huge surge of field strength that dampens out. A single wire wound coil also possesses this interesting phenomena, however the bifilar coil in either configuration (series or parallel) causes a much more pronounced effect. The currents circulating inside the coil by it's own induction could have something to do with it based on the formula (Amp = change in electrification / time). But as to why the coil produces a stronger field per watt, I don't know. All I know is it does based on the experiments of 2 others and myself.

What this means is that less power is needed to saturate a core with the lines of force.
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Old 06-26-2013, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chainmailleman View Post
Honestly, I don't know why the field is stronger. I notice that when the power is applied there is a huge surge of field strength that dampens out. A single wire wound coil also possesses this interesting phenomena, however the bifilar coil in either configuration (series or parallel) causes a much more pronounced effect. The currents circulating inside the coil by it's own induction could have something to do with it based on the formula (Amp = change in electrification / time). But as to why the coil produces a stronger field per watt, I don't know. All I know is it does based on the experiments of 2 others and myself.

What this means is that less power is needed to saturate a core with the lines of force.
Hi Chainmailleman

Have you tried winding any coils using copper tape rather than wire? Just interested in results if any.

Regards

John
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Old 06-26-2013, 10:05 PM
chainmailleman chainmailleman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john_g View Post
Hi Chainmailleman

Have you tried winding any coils using copper tape rather than wire? Just interested in results if any.

Regards

John
I have not. Although this sounds like a very cost effective way of making induction coils.
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:02 PM
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Mil to Awg

Can someone work out the equivalent awg of the 3mil 3m brand copper tape for the 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and 1 inch tapes I'm sure it will come in handy for the rest of us. Also, since it will have to be insulated, does anyone know of a good coating to use?
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar View Post
Can someone work out the equivalent awg of the 3mil 3m brand copper tape for the 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and 1 inch tapes I'm sure it will come in handy for the rest of us. Also, since it will have to be insulated, does anyone know of a good coating to use?
Patrick's Appendix 1 has a table of AWG/SWG values, including
the cross sectional areas. We could take the cross sectional
area of hte 3M tapes and assume it will be the same as for
the circular cross sectional area material. If you ar econcerned
with current carrying capacity, the linkage may not be perfect
since it is thought that most of the current is carried at the
edge.

Equating the perimeters might be better.
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Old 06-28-2013, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar View Post
The pancake coil itself may have been illustrated mainly for communication, the visual of the wire turning back on itself is probably easier to understand this way.
No, I think this is quite wrong.

Tesla designed the flat spiral coil because he needed a flat spiral coil.
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Old 06-29-2013, 01:11 AM
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I was speculating

the structure of my sentence implied that, I said main reason not only reason for the pancake and not one of the other coil types as the illustration.
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Old 07-03-2013, 11:13 PM
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Found a coating for the copper tape

I found some "liquid electrical tape" in a spray can at Harbor Freight it seems like it will do the job covering the copper tape.
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Old 07-04-2013, 05:31 PM
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Lightbulb Solenoid Experiments

There's a fellow by the name of Robert Murray-Smith on YouTube who has posted some videos on solenoid experiments using electromagnets coils, neodymium magnets and a ferrite rod. He gets good results with low power.

(Be forewarned the audio is kind of choppy.)

Free Energy Power Amplifier - 1 - YouTube

Free energy power amplifier - 2 - YouTube

Free Energy Power Amplifier 3 - YouTube

Free Energy power amplifier - 4 - a new implementation - YouTube

And another couple of videos by YouTuber gotoluc.

Mostly Permenent Magnet Motor - Test 1

Mostly Permenent Magnet Motor - Test 2

The other inventor is Bob Teal. He called his invention Magnipulsion.

Bob Teal | Magnipulsion| Missing Interview - YouTube

Teal's system uses attraction only with no magnets. His system also captures the kick-back from off of the coils and uses it to power an incandescent bulb.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:24 PM
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greeting all...
takihg about tesla bifilar patent, perhaps this site would give us an slightly information about what happen on the bifilar and non bifilar solejoid winding...

www.Magnetricity.com ... Tesla's BIFILAR 'COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS' Patent # 512,340, dated January 9, 1894

right now i am trying 2 light up an low watt cfl using one battery using flyback core with bifilar winding on the secondary... trying to use both in paralell or series connection of my bifilar secondary...
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar View Post
The pancake coil itself may have been illustrated mainly for communication, the visual of the wire turning back on itself is probably easier to understand this way.
Yes, I believe the pancake coil was shown for illustrative purposes. It makes it simple to understand the differences of a single wire and a bifilar coil.

If we think about it, the title of the patent claims 'electromagnet' and also it talks about coils of 1000 turns. Ever wind a 1000 turn bifi pancake?

Not to make the pancake look bad. It has its purposes, one way or the other.

Mags
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:31 AM
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People who see a 4 times increase in self inductance are using twice as much wire.

All coils that are supplied current and produce a magnetic field are "electromagnets" by definition.

Magluvin is correct the spiral coil on the patent is for illustrative purposes.

The point of the patent is to wind a coil so that when the coil is excited by
currents of the correct frequency the current flows through the coil as if the coil
has no self induction, so the current only faces the DC resistance of the wire.

Every coil that uses electricity to produce a magnetic field is an electro-magnet.

Every coil in every motor is an electromagnet because it's purpose is to
create a magnetic field when it is supplied electric current.

The self capacitance is related to the voltage applied in Tesla's coil for
Electro-Magnets due to the reasons I outlined about the capacitor plate
separation. Some people who claim to be quite smart tried to deny that.
But it is true and it fits conventional knowledge and is logical.

So to properly tune a Coil for electro-magnets, the voltage to be used is also
a consideration. A coil wound for effect at 100 Khz using 10 000 volts will not
work the same if 10 volts is used due to the capacitor plate separation
(thickness of insulation or distance between turns) causing the secured self
capacitance to be less.

This is evidenced by the way Radio coils are spaced to reduce self capacitance.

People can dispute whatever they like but time will tell all truths.

The patent claims are truthful and the patent is valid. The patent itself states
that the patent covers all coils be it solenoid or any other coil made to be a coil.

Don't listen to the extremists. They avoid the valid points and dwell on, "it has
no uses so the patent is pointless", or, "this coil makes free energy".

Which does nothing to advance the understanding or the use of the coil.

I didn't need any guru to explain it, or confuse it for me. I read the patent
and applied logic and common sense to see it's meaning and significance.


Cheers

P.S. The effect of the "cancelling of the effects of the self inductance" is a
reactance thing, but it is not limited to AC excitement, the coil can be excited
with DC pulses at the correct frequency or alternating positive and negative
DC pulses (less than 50% duty or less than a Square wave AC). What the
patent does not relate to is Uninterrupted DC, uninterrupted DC after some
initial time only faces the DC resistance of the coil anyway, so no need for a
special coil, unless Pulsed DC is used or AC or alternating DC pulses.

If a coil is pulsed with DC pulses at a random frequency the coil will exhibit
reactance and the reactance can be cancelled if the excitement of the coil is
done at the correct frequency for the effect to manifest.

It's Tesla, 101. Using resonance effects.

..
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:46 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magluvin View Post
Yes, I believe the pancake coil was shown for illustrative purposes. It makes it simple to understand the differences of a single wire and a bifilar coil.
This is nonsense. Look at the work of the massive Tesla coil builders
and even the front cover of "Wheelwork of nature":
Valone harnessing the wheelwork of nature - tesla's science of en...

It is easy enough to sketch a bilar traditional coil. If he had
meant that, he would have done that.
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Old 07-07-2013, 11:47 PM
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Dumbing it down for the patent office

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
This is nonsense. Look at the work of the massive Tesla coil builders
and even the front cover of "Wheelwork of nature":
Valone harnessing the wheelwork of nature - tesla's science of en...

It is easy enough to sketch a bilar traditional coil. If he had
meant that, he would have done that.
Why would it have been nonsense to have part of the reason he chose to illustrate the pancake coil that it would seem more understandable to the morons(regular people) that surrounded him? Please remember that this was pure speculation and not meant to disrupt anyone's emotional equilibrium.
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