Has anyone done the single wire transmission experiment? If you got it to work with one wire, and wish to replace the one wire with the earth itself, how much voltage is required for x amount of distance from 3 feet deep into ground in order to receive the power at high efficiency?

Thanks.

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My unscientific estimation is approx 3-4 volts for around 30cm distance, probably a bit more with 3 feet of depth and well tuned coils. Experiment and see.

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Thank you for the reply. Have you tested this or anything similar before? If so, how were your results like in terms of efficiency?

Thanks.

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Yes and no. I used a very experimental setup so I can't speak of any efficiency, but I think you would do very well to get in the region of 98% efficient like Tesla said.

This is what I did, the ground rods were 20-30cm deep and 25-30cm apart

Tesla Wireless Telluric Transmission Test-01 - In The Snow - YouTube

The power dissipated by the transistor is about 370mW, 9v supply with 47 ohm output impedance so very low power used for test purposes and the receiver is a flat spiral so there's no matched coils or anything, just basic tuning. I don't think anyone is likely to give you an accurate answer so the best thing to do is try it and find out.

Although I should probably point out there are legal issues with this and the authorities probably won't look kindly if you intend to use big amounts of power, you should avoid broadcast frequencies particularly emergency services and military and what not. Amateur bands and a license is the safest and least trouble causing route.

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"Knowledge is cosmic. It does not evolve or unfold in man. Man unfolds to an awareness of it. He gradually discovers it." - Walter Russell

"Once men died for Truth, but now Truth dies at the hands of men." - Manly P. Hall

That's amazing!! Thanks for sharing that, it gives me hope with mine.

I'm sending about 6.9 watts of power at 555KHz. I don't think it would be strong enough to interfere with anything. I'm using cylindrical coils though. I have a flat coil but I will test that after my cylinders work because they operate at a lower frequency than the flat spirals.

I have one more question since I am amateur with circuits. My coil impedance is not high enough to prevent significant current going through it with no load. Therefore it drops the voltage a lot. So correct me if I'm wrong but whatever the voltage parallel to my input coil should be the same voltage parallel to my output coil right? That's how I would measure efficiency, including measuring the current through the coil with the same load on input and output.

Anyway your video was awesome, you should do a cleaner one during the day time because hardly anyone believes you can send power through one wire let alone through the ground with one wire.

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You're welcome, and thank you.

You mean the primary coil impedance? Under those conditions the primary coil should be getting as much as your power supply can supply and that's why the voltage drops, it's not powerful enough to keep the voltage up over the given impedance, it has to go flat out just to get whatever voltage there is. But that's a whole other problem in itself.

I think what you are talking about is transmission efficiency. I.E. how much power is going into the earth from the transmitter, and how much power is received at the receiver. Not how much power the power supply is using because the components will be dissipating heat etc, so the actual power supplied to the transmission system will not be represented by the total power input. The efficiency of the power supply is another thing and shouldn't be counted if you are measuring the transmission efficiency.

Although yes you are right in that the higher the voltage in the transmitter primary then theoretically the higher the voltage will be at the receiver. But you can also play with the turns ratios to affect things like that. For proper measurement it should be a matter of power (watts) difference between one end of the transmission line and the other, output vs input (or I suppose transmitter output vs receiver output). On the receiving end I would either put a meter between the receiver and earth (probably not very accurate), or use some known load. On the transmitting end a meter between the secondary and earth will show the power into earth. But these things are tricky if not impossible to measure if you don't have RF equipment. You could use small filament bulbs as an indication of the transmitter output instead of a meter, but that won't work the same at the receiver input.

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"Knowledge is cosmic. It does not evolve or unfold in man. Man unfolds to an awareness of it. He gradually discovers it." - Walter Russell

"Once men died for Truth, but now Truth dies at the hands of men." - Manly P. Hall

I should have been more clear. I meant the impedance of the primary coil of the transmitter.
I'll explain my question in an example. In a cellphone charger that we plug into a wall there is usually transformer. But let's say we don't plug the phone into the charger while the charger remains plugged into the wall. The primary of the transformer still runs a little bit of current but not much due to its high impedance to the 60 Hz. BUT if lets say the impedance wasn't high enough, then we would not get 120 volts across the transformer primary thus resulting in a smaller voltage than needed in the secondary (so instead let's say 120v to 12v, we may get 30v to 3v if impedance isn't high enough.

What I just explained is my understanding of how it works but correct me if I'm wrong.

So if correct, my transmitter primary coil has low impedance and has a low voltage drop but higher current running through it.

So my question is (assuming perfect identical windings of both coils): Whatever voltage and current across the the primary of the transmitter should be equivalent to the primary of the receiver (primary of receiver meaning the coil with fewer windings when the voltage gets stepped back down) ?

I will measure efficiency by measuring current and voltage to determine wattage but I just want to make sure I'm understanding all this.

I hope that wasn't confusing, I appreciate your help.

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Hello Kavkav,

I think your a little bit off with your transformer understanding, with reference to the wall charger situation. Impedance of the transformer isn't really of immediate significance, it is the phase angle of the current flowing through the transformer which makes it appear as reactive or real power. Impedance of the load (wall transformer) can be anything you want, as long as the source impedance is low enough to supply it without causing a voltage sag. With a constant frequency constant voltage source, the voltage across the wall transformer will remain constant despite a change in load impedance (but to a realistic limit).

Concluding, when you attach a load to the secondary of the wall transformer, the current flow in the secondary lowers the inductance of the primary which then permits more current to flow in the primary with reference to the constant frequency constant voltage mains supply. So there is NO to little voltage drop at the primary side (unless you have a very low impedance load with reference to the source impedance).

The way I see the one-wire Tesla transmitter working is as a form of transverse to longitudinal bi-directional converter. The primary takes in normal transverse energy and converts it through a complex form of loose coupling and self-resonance at the secondary into a longitudinal form, which can then be recovered at a distant location by a similar unit in receive configuration where the secondary converts the longitudinal energy back to transverse for use at the two turn primary output. The extra coil seems to help increase the ground current pumped between the two units but isn't an absolute requirement.

It would seem that everything is in a 1:1 arrangement with no impedance transforming operations observed from input of Tx primary to output of Rx primary... but I wouldn't assume that the voltage at the receiving unit should be the exact same, as there will always be losses in the transverse to longitudinal conversion process (pri. to sec.) and the long distance transmission (Tx to Rx) process involved with everything... but for the most part I agree with what you've said.

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I think I understand what your are saying. But I'll explain what happened.

My function generator has a source resistance of 150 ohms. I measured it's voltage during a 555KHz signal using my oscilloscope and it read about 9.7 Volts.
Then I connected the function generator probes to the primary of my transformer during the 555KHz signal. I measured the voltage in parallel using my oscilloscope. I thought it should reda the same voltage as before, 9.7 Volts. However, it measure something like 2.4 Volts. My transformer had no load on its secondary and was an open circuit.

I think it is because the coil impedance of the primary and the source resistance of the function generator acted like a voltage divider.

This is why originally I thought, my coil impedance must be higher so that when it acts as a voltage divider, most of the voltage would go across the transformer.

So is it possible that my measurement was like that because it could have been acting like a voltage divider? And if so, would increasing the impedance of the coil (by increasing its inductance) resolve the problem?

Thanks.

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In practical terms, as in what you "see" on the bench, and what you have described:

The voltage also depends on the available current. If you consider it as DC, if you were to do that with the mains supply then there is more than enough current available and you would get the full 120 volts across the load. Voltage = current x resistance. In this case the wire would start to melt. But if there is not enough current being supplied, then it can't maintain the voltage, and the measured maximum will be the maximum power output of your power supply, and there's not a thing you can do about it without increasing the power since you deliberately want the load to be minimal resistance. A signal generator might be safe but a transformer is likely to start melting if it's too small for the load.

I've been learning about RF amplifiers recently and source and load impedance seem to be important things, which introduces a problem because you are right in that this essentially acts as a voltage divider. The output impedance of one stage is matched with the input impedance of the next stage, so you are dealing with half the voltage at the input, which back to the earlier solution means you need to compensate if you intend to get a specific output over a given load.

As an example, an amplifier with a gain of 1 will have an effective gain of 0.25 of the input voltage across a matched load impedance. The voltage is halved at the input, and halved over the load, so just to get unity gain you need to design the amplifier for 4 times gain.

Increasing your primary inductance would have the desired effect, but also many others. It would be better to use a lower impedance source, or make an amplifier to increase the available power etc.

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Awesome I think I get this now thanks. Originally I wasn't sure what the problem was and thought the voltage drop would occur in my amplifier setup but now that I know it's a voltage divider issue and may not affect my setup. Unfortunately though I don't have the right value power resistors or regulator to be using a 90 volt power supply so I have to settle with 60 Volts. This brings the power down to about 2 watts (according to my simulation) being sent through the ground.

I'm very new to mosfet amplifiers so all that voltage for only a couple watts is the best I could do for now. If my operating frequency was lower, using a BJT amplifier would be ideal for me.

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dr-Green,

I have a question about your video regarding the stick with the LEDs lighting up when touching the ground. Did you have it tuned to your operating frequency or was it just straight up turning on when you touched the LEDs to the ground? My assumption is you tuned it based on my understanding on single wire transmission. If not, then this is bad news for efficiency because it would mean anything can collect the energy.

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Yes I'm finding the whole thing to be quite inefficient too. At the moment I'm using /-12V but during experimenting and adjusting a lot of power is wasted in the power supply/amplifier(s) just to get a fraction of the total input power for use through the intended system. More and more power is wasted for small gains in usable output. Although using a push pull setup and proper balancing I've found it possible to make the transistors run almost cool at full power, any resistors I'm using to limit the current get pretty hot though regardless. If there is any imbalance in the transistors then one will get pretty hot, but it seems possible to get reasonably efficient results with some work on it. The voltage regulators always get hot too and that can't be avoided, I'm surprised they haven't cut out from seeing the primary as a short circuit so far. But the whole thing definitely gives off a lot of heat overall considering I only want it for relatively small amounts of power in the end.

That's an Avramenko Plug



There's no tuning. But note that it works within about 1cm of the earth rod powering 3 LEDs, whereas the tuned receiver is at 30cm powering 6 LEDs.

Note in Tesla's diagram "The Wireless Light: Place a wire in the ground: That is all"

An LED alone won't work in the same way as this anyway. It seems to be incandescent bulbs and such things, I don't know how or why they work but they do. For experiment purposes I'd recommend you use a bucket of garden soil and use it to simulate a wireless earth connection, it can reveal some pretty interesting stuff and can be used to confirm claims and stories etc. I think I did this after watching some Secret Of Nikola Tesla film or something, in it the Tesla character plugged a bulb into the field and it lit. That's easily confirmed with a bucket of soil, the only difference between using the actual earth and a bucket in this way I would say is that it's far easier to get the same effects with low power through the bucket, but otherwise the effect should be just the same with the earth.

Light, The Tesla Way-01 - TMT 72.4 Scale - YouTube

As for efficiency, PEOPLE can certainly collect the energy, but otherwise:

"The Future of the Wireless Art" by Nikola Tesla

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"Knowledge is cosmic. It does not evolve or unfold in man. Man unfolds to an awareness of it. He gradually discovers it." - Walter Russell

"Once men died for Truth, but now Truth dies at the hands of men." - Manly P. Hall

"Yes I'm finding the whole thing to be quite inefficient too. At the moment I'm using /-12V but during experimenting and adjusting a lot of power is wasted in the power supply/amplifier(s) just to get a fraction of the total input power for use through the intended system. More and more power is wasted for small gains in usable output. Although using a push pull setup and proper balancing I've found it possible to make the transistors run almost cool at full power, any resistors I'm using to limit the current get pretty hot though regardless. If there is any imbalance in the transistors then one will get pretty hot, but it seems possible to get reasonably efficient results with some work on it. The voltage regulators always get hot too and that can't be avoided, I'm surprised they haven't cut out from seeing the primary as a short circuit so far. But the whole thing definitely gives off a lot of heat overall considering I only want it for relatively small amounts of power in the end."

I'm not too worried about the amplifier wasting all the energy. I understand it is possible to have efficient high frequency amplifiers. If one day I get rich (and my circuits knowledge has improved), I'll buy one just to do a full scaled experiment. My worry is the efficiency between the transmitting coil to the receiving coil because that is what makes all the magic.

Regarding the wireless light bulb, I have seen that too but I always thought he had a built in coil-receiver tuned to the operating frequency. Otherwise, what is stopping bugs, plants, animals and even humans from getting electrocuted? Now that I've seen your LED circuit, it makes me want to investigate this further. I like your idea and video on a bucket of soil. Before testing it in my backyard I'll try it in a bucket to investigate the different properties and under what conditions the energy can only be received by the receiver coil (if at all possible).

I appreciate all your help, this means a lot. I've found it difficult to find help on this topic.

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In the article you posted Tesla was pretty much saying there is no power loss with the wireless system through the earth. There has to be a way to make this experiment efficient. I'll update this thread with my findings when my experiment is complete.

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TRANSMISION DE ENERGIA ELECTRICA POR UN SOLO HILO - YouTube

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must first understand the nature .... and then imitate

That's a neat circuit you came up with. I saw the link on your video. How efficient is it?

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losses are brutal, maybe my configuration is not good, however the transmission of electrical energy by a thread seems possible at least for short distances, but the losses are large

saludos desde España, Amigos

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I have one hypothesis. I'm not sure if it makes sense entirely, but I'm basing it off my experiments.

If you use the tesla coil set up, you would have little capacitance at the metal spheres. You would also have little capacitance on the single wire transmitting the energy between the transmitter and receiver. In my experiments when I touched the un-insulated parts of the single wire portion, the receiver would turn off. However, when I used large sheets of aluminum replacing the single wire, it didn't matter how much I touched the un-insulated aluminum, the receiver remained on and did not lose its efficiency. I believe it was because the capacitance of the transmission wire must be greater than the capacitance of the metal sphere of the Tesla coils. Therefore I have a feeling the earth has a certain amount of capacitance so there should be a minimum distance withing the earth you must have between the receiver and transmitter in order to have efficient transmission. That is just my hypothesis but I am not sure if that is true for transmission within the ground. It only worked with the aluminum sheets and the tesla coils.

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I got it working through a bucket of soil with voltage being about 91% .the same but I didn't have a working ammeter so I couldn't measure wattage. I'm assuming current would be the same since the windings of receiver and transmitter are the same with exception to them being opposite directions in winding. If the current is roughly the same then I would say about 85% to 91% efficient from a distance of 25cm apart and 20 cm deep. however when I touched the soil, the receiver would turn off. So I tested this in the actual earth ground and this time with a ground rod almost 6 feet deep and a ground plate 3 feet deep. They were about 27 feet apart. Sadly it didn't work. I'm gonna try putting another ground rod 27 feet apart rather than using the ground plate. Also my voltage was 20V peak to peak from my computer. Unfortunately I couldn't get my amplifier to work. It worked in my simulation but not in real life. I don't know why. I believe there has to be a minimum voltage to travel through a certain amount of distance. I gotta find a high frequency amplifier or get mine working so I can test this.

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That's mainly a simple tuning issue. The bucket should have sufficient capacitance that you touching the soil should not have (too) much of an effect in that respect. Ideally the transmitter should be tuned to resonance with the bucket while the receiver is disconnected, then the receiver tuned to this frequency. If you touch it and it goes off the receiver is probably not in tune, so retune the receiver while touching the soil. Rather than affecting the frequency/capacitance (of the bucket and transmitter) in a big way I think that you touching it is more a matter of you "absorbing" the energy if you will so the apparent effect is that there's less power available at the receiver (although you should also pay attention to the distance between your body parts and the coils etc when you're touching this and that) - the bucket is very leaky and it's a bit too easy to get the energy to "spill over" into the receiver, so it illustrates the fact that you can see much more easily whether or not the receiver is properly tuned when you reduce the amount of power, also the importance of tuning it precisely to the intended frequency. Eventually you should be able to touch the receiver ground terminal (metal) without noticing much of an effect at all. But the bucket is only for simulating an earth, non-metallic connection and for experimental purposes as a learning tool. If something doesn't work with the bucket then it certainly won't work with the earth.

That's sort of right but not necessarily in that way. By touching the small capacitance of the wire you are increasing it by a lot, so your coil is no longer resonating, it now has a lower resonant frequency including your body and you'll have to adjust the oscillator to match. Then it will start working again. When this capacitance gets naturally sufficiently big (without you touching it), and the coil is tuned to resonance with it, then any addition of a relatively small capacitance like your body has practically no noticeable effect*. So it's rather a matter of drowning out the inconvenient effects of any interfering small capacitances by using a bigger one than all the others combined to begin with, because they affect the resonant frequency of the coil which you want to be fixed.

*As far as it's concerned here.

How well are the coils tuned etc. Power matters aside, the solution, or the problem, is the same thing as getting the receiver to continue to work while you touch the soil in the bucket. Once that's figured out, I'd recommend starting at minimal distance and then extending it. You'll probably need to retune the receiver more and more finely as you go along but I think you should find it possible to keep increasing the distance and retuning until you finally reach the limits of your setup.

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Wow, thanks for the detailed reply. I'm going to retest everything today in my bucket. I don't know if it matters, but my bucket is actually a flower pot, non conductive.

Anyway, I have a question regarding what you have said. As I retune the frequency while touching the soil, does that mean my operating frequency will be lower? Or would it just mean I'm tuning it closer to the exact operating frequency of the two tesla coils as if it were connected by a single wire?

I ask because if one was to send power through the earth at a far distance, then your operating would become lower as your distance increases. In my opinion I think that would make things easier if the operating frequency was lower.

But now I have a conflicting thought in my head. You mentioned I should tune the transmitter to the bucket of soil and THEN connect my receiver. How do I indicate the transmitter is precisely tuned to the bucket. The LEDs at input light up at a large range of frequencies. Oh but maybe it will only light up at a certain frequency once in the ground. I will have to test this out.

Thank you once again. I will post my results. I have joined a forum here where everyone talks about this tesla experiments and longitudinal energy and what not. Maybe you will find it interesting: Topic: Longitudinal Electricity Transmission Through the Natural Medium.

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Yes that's good, the pot shouldn't be conductive. I also forgot to mention a ground plane 3 times the diameter of the coil about 60cm below the coil could help, connected in parallel with the bucket so the whole thing acts as a grounding system to minimise stray/floating frequencies as well as allowing you to do various transmission experiments with the bucket. The ground plane can just be a sheet of tinfoil etc.

I watched your video and I noticed the receiver (I assume?) stays on when you touch the metal rod to pull it out of the soil. If that's the case then I don't know why it would go off when you touch the soil, but stays on when you touch the metal. My experience is the opposite. Touch the soil and retune it and see what happens. Also you should try to keep as much distance as possible between yourself and the coils when you're touching things in general, or for example if you're touching the bucket then you don't want to be anywhere near the coil or especially the top capacitance because the physical positioning of the whole thing will have a much bigger effect than normal and then you will be dealing with a different phenomena or problem, not the original bucket capacitance issue. So things like that can cause a lot of confusion.

I don't see why the operating frequency should become lower as the distance increases?

LED is not a good indicator here. You can use 1.5V grain of wheat bulbs on either or both ends of the coil but they may not light easily/at all powered only from a signal generator. You can also hang a scope probe near the top end of the coil and look for the highest amplitude, or use an analogue voltmeter. You don't need accurate readings here only relative readings to be able to tell when it's tuned.

This is the tuning setup given by Eric Dollard:



Equivalent for scope:



I use the PCI card metal backplate as the pickup because it was convenient but you can use whatever you have. I have a collection of small apple pie tins that get used for such things.

From ARRL Antenna Book:



Thanks, I've already been keeping an eye on that discussion

You'll also find a lot of info on the Eric Dollard threads. Eric's transmissions are by user T-rex:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ollard-30.html

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"Knowledge is cosmic. It does not evolve or unfold in man. Man unfolds to an awareness of it. He gradually discovers it." - Walter Russell

"Once men died for Truth, but now Truth dies at the hands of men." - Manly P. Hall