had to put up an 8 by 14 shed in the yard havnt got to the 99 buick with the anti foulers yet ...however thought id post and update on the xcelplus/luberlon eng treatment/boosters ref my 72 ford pu 3/4 ton v390 got in a good run today in the high desert 20% city 80% hiway started with exactly 3/4 of a tank of gas 120 mile round trip used a hair over 1/4 tank gauge currently reading 1/2 tank not exceeding 50/55 mph its a 19 gallon seat tank ..note constant windy conditions 30/40 mph allways determental to good gas milage...gauges are pretty accurate ..this is my second ford v390 so i am familar with there usual max of 12 mpg...allowing for a little overkill error i used 6 gallons of gas each 1/4 tank= 4.75 gal that came out to 20 mpg + i truly belive minus wind and keeping a light foot it will get 25 mpg only modifications are original ford manif and ford 4 barrel off pass car pre 70 ...petronics instead of points ..30,000 v coil ..2 5 plate hydrogen boosters ,K and N full size air cleaner and xcelplus/luberon eng treatment using only 87 octane union 76 it impressed me but im afraid to tell anybody they might call me a liar but its for real ...in addition my sons 3 cyl 91 geo metro report oil change added xcelplus/luberlon he has run it a couple weeks noticed increased hp and milage new they got 55 mpg from what hes telling me hes geting about 58 w/5 speed std trans he said on hills where he had to downshift to third he now pulls it in 4 th gear... thats it for now i will get to the buick asap art

Hi all... I'm very new here...

I started to run my Renault Clio 2005 with a Water Injection about a year ago and it gave me a slight improvement on FC.
Recently built a HHO gen and still trying to get it to help FC improvement.
Still waiting for the non-foulers to be machined as my O2 sensors are of a different size.
From what I've seen, my engine is monitored by several other sensors; MAP, MAF etc...
and from what I've read, these sensors will also need to be dealt with if I want to see some significant FC improvement.
Thus, I'm not surprise if my O2 mod won't work. (Still hoping for the best...)

That leaves me no choice but to get a piggy-back programmable ECU to overide all my stock settings, and I know this is really gonna work but comes at a price...

I've learned a lot here and thanks for all the useful info...

All you need to do is an EFIE device on your Pre Cat O2 Sensors. I will be posting a Circuit that anyone can build so you wont have to buy them at about $50 a piece, they can be made for about $15 each.

The reasoning on just modifying the O2 sensors is that they are the sensors used during "Closed Loop" ECU functioning. The MAF sensor is used during "Open Loop" mode so what happens if you mess with these sensors is your ECU will always stay in open loop mode where the ecu shoots "Rich" then "Lean" to hit a Target A/F Ratio and never goes into closed loop which is where your ECU is functioning at the Best A/F Ratio at all times.
This happens in Order, when your car first starts it's in open loop until it figures the required info from all the sensors needed in open loop, i.e Temp, Altitude, and even some vehicles measure the Fuel combustion (octane) to calculate timing and pulse rate of the injectors. Once that has all been done the ECU will go into "Closed Loop" which then basically is adjusting A/F ratio's off of the O2 sensors.

So what the EFIE device does is takes the incoming (True) signal from the O2 Sensor and add's or subtracts minuscule amounts of voltage to that signal and feeds it back to the ECU so it always thinks it is running at the Factory set target. This is done during closed loop so it never reverts back to the Open Loop State because it always sees the "Correct" A/F Ratio.

Allot of devices operate by manipulating the MAF sensor Signal Also, But these are generally used in Performance Applications where they are wanting "More" fuel and are not concerned with accurate "Open Loop" sensor readings. But in our case I would not want to mess with the "Open Loop" sensors because if we do it will be counter productive in the long run when the O2 sensor reading is all we need to change. Think about it would you want the ECU changing Timing and Injector pulse rates based off of a modified signal? Also your ecu would never go into "Closed Loop" so your gains would be minimal. Only time I would even consider altering the MAF sensor signal would be If the Vehicle I was working on had a Wide Band O2 sensor and was forced not to use the EFIE Device. Then I would only expect maybe a 10% to 15% gain in Fuel Economy Also.

Hope That Helps!

Wow.... that's super!!!

Looking forward to the circuit diagram... thanx Redmeanie...
Anyway, the piggy-back ECU cost around 250usd over here.

Way to go RedMeanie!!!! That's the best explanation of how these controls work that I have seen. I hope everyone woking on an HHO unit reads it. Please post that circuit ASAP. I already have it but I don't remember where I found it posted & it is vital to most of these systems.

I found that posting . My brother had e-mailed it to me. Bettermileage.com/memberadx.html. Gives parts list(Radio Shack stuff) schematics,instructions on how to build, test,& install it.

If you want it PM me and I will email it to you.....It is a corrected version of the one in the "Free Energy" PDF....That one had some critical errors in it..... I would post it here but the last time I posted a design on a forum it ended up being sold on eBay and since Im giving it away free, I will not tolerate someone selling it to people and profiting when our whole goal here is the Free "Sharing" of info to better our environment and help each other out.....
So just PM me your email and I will send it to you.....

Our if there is enough demand I will watermark it and post it in the members only forum here....

I have posted this in the member only "Energy" sub forum.....

Hello all! I got a couple questions, but first I need to explain what I know before I ask it.

Ok... I was told that if you simply wrap Aluminum foil around the exposed part of the O2 sensor and layered it several times that it would help keep in the heat since using an H2 +O Generator would allow for cooler engine temps, thus making the O2 sensors allow for a rich mix. Of course, we don't want that.

Q1:Would the aluminum foil wrapping of the o2 sensors work for a car that has a MAF sensor? (specifically a 2001 Ford Focus SE)

Also, I understand that when installing an HHO Generator that the HHO Out part of the vacuum hose goes into the air intake before the MAF sensor.

Q2: Couldn't you just drill a hole for the HHO intake AFTER the MAF sensor- as in the air filter box cover?

I'm new to the Energetic Forum, so if this has been answered or if I'm asking stupid questions please give me a mulligan. I'm a newbie.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can give an answer to any or both questions!

Dont even attempt to warap the O2 sensors....Thats the first time I have heard that one! O2 sensors operation is far more intricate than what can be manipulated with Foil. Think about it exhaust is Hot and it would take about 2 minutes for the foil to be saturated with heat....Then it may hold some of the heat in and prevent the O2 sensor from functioning properly....You want the O2 sensor to still function properly we just want to SLIGHTLY modify the signal, Hence the EFIE Device....Plus it would not be pretty when all that foil comes off and clogs up your Cat Converter.....

As far as the HHO input goes you want it as "Close" to the Butterfly on your throttle body you can get...Just tap into the plastic housing right behind the Hose clamp that holds the plastic to the throttle body....

The MAF is basically a Heater Element (Hot Wires) Not exactly something you want the HHO Running Through!

Hope that helps!

Thanks RedMeanie for the Circuit Design, I got it over in my computer just now.
Have you ever checked out the 3 articles "Tuning for Mileage" so I understand they were originally written by Mike Holler at Fuel Economt Tips and MPG Research. I'm thinking of trying to work on my Map and so on as time permitts after I install the EFIE's.
Again Thanks for all your input.

a little update got my booster installed after considerable jimmy jacking with the hook up ...using a 3/8 id clear hose my boosters are not truly air tight but there is enough manif vac to flex the sides not desirable so i metered it down to a 5/32 direct into the intake manif still runs runs the risk of picking up lye solution liquid instead of vapor also manually under the hood gave it several quick half throttles picked up eng stumble with vapor only supprise me....opted to hook up at tps after the air cleaner easy hook up but running a vapor smoke check it didnt appear to be picking up much ..topped the tank went for 58 mile run noticed i wasnt producing much hydrogen corrected that i was hooked on the wrong side of the resistor works fine now about 7 or 8 amps runs cool...jumping ahead my buick 3.1 is already a clean burner been checking the tail pipe when i tweek something with no or very little hydrogen tail pipe is white after i got it producing the correct amount of hydrogen i can see it start to darken up a little in only 20 miles a good sign it tells me the hydrogen is getting to the eng ...jumping ahead ive done a little research and one of the bigger hydrogen booster manufac have on the web site i think its water car recommends wrapping the exterior of the 02 sensor with renolds wrap pictures and all "the poor mans tweeker" ive heard this from several others but they say dont do it inless you have water inj or a booster or similar device to keep the combustion cooled down...so far in the short test it doesnt appear to have effected the milage much one way or the other..i will run it several days with booster on and check the tail pipe color again i expected that it would tell the comp send more fuel and that appears to be the case ....then i have the foil wrap already made with a horse shoe hold clip made fron a piece of springy stainless steel wire to hold it in place i believe the tail pipe color could be a clue to dialing it in rich fuel= dark , lean burn=white old mechanic mentality what can i say will update asap art

GUys....
Here's something I read over the net;

Fuel saving gadgets - a professional engineer's view
"......Unfortunately it was completely impossible to meet these limits through lean-burn technology. Lean-running engines produce less NOx at source than engines running at lambda = 1, but cannot use a three-way catalytic converter to remove the NOx. (What the catalyst does is to remove the oxygen from the NOx and give it to the HC and CO. The result is plain nitrogen, carbon dioxide and water, all of which are essentially harmless. But to work, the lambda value must be just right. If the mixture is too lean then the "spare" oxygen is given to the HC and CO, and the NOx passes through unconverted.)"

So, by running lean we are now dumping NOx into the air even with a cat?
Anyone running lean here have checked their emission for NOx results?

Well for starters, we are "Not" Technically running our vehicles Lean with HHO Boosters. We are "Leaning" out the Fossil Fuel from the Ignition Process. The HHO is capable of filling that void of missing Fossil Fuels and still have energy left over.

I have a guy that does my emissions here in the Houston area and he says the exhaust from the vehicles I have helped others with is so clean that the machine actually failed the vehicle! He was so impressed with the results he now has them in his vehicle. By the way the Houston area has some of the most strict emission guidelines there are. I have to remember to cut the system off anytime I send a vehicle to be Inspected for the first time. And since he is "HHO Booster" Friendly we pass every time now!

Okay, got the car Wednesday, hooked up the WIS 1st and I've got the O2 extenders in place on Thursday eve, 1 goes in front (tiny outlet) and the other (bigger outlet) behind the cat......
Not planning to fit the HHO at this moment yet...

Did some city driving Friday... car performed normally, FC still remains similar if not fractionally better at 12.0km/litre. Noticed something though; the city driving last nite was in heavy monsoon rain, normally with the WIS on the PCV hose at the airbox would be wet with water condensation but I did not notice any significant amount of it this morning... hmmmm...

I've remove the -ve terminal last nite ovenite (Kumaran's suggestion-thanx)... hoping that this would reset the ECU.

Planning to go for a highway trip tomorrow...

I already have something in mind if the mod fails to produce better FC;

1. Reopen the O2 sensors and wrap it up with foil or something but leaving just the tip exposed (there is a small sensor oulet at the tip.), that ought to reduce the sensitivity of the sensor somewhat....

2. Get the EFIE from the net... need to study more on how to get it dialed, from what I've read it's not that easy...

3. Hunt for a used piggy-back ECU.... this is costly... + I need to dyno it in, more money....

Hoping for the best.... thank for all the feedback.

Guys...
Not giving up, I'm going back to square 1 (almost) and start over...
With a recent lube change, I'm gonna start with the WIS 1st... run it for a week and then the O2 extenders and run it for more miles.... (previously, I only ran 300km on it and the FC remained the same 10.0km/l city and 16.5km/l highway)
Finally, the HHO will come in....

Q: Will the O2 extender actually extend the life of the O2 sensors, since it's away from the exhaust stream?

TQ

For those of you who have not Joined or contacted Aaron about access to the "Energy" Sub Forum.....I have made a Combo Printed Circuit Board Available there and will be putting Kits Together If there is enough people interested.
These will "ONLY" be available to MEMBERS of this Forum.....

I don't think it would unless you have an engine that has other problems causing the O2 sensors to foul up. I have always hard-timed the O2 sensors at 50,000 Miles. Never really had one fail. Comparing removed O2 sensors to the new ones showed my old ones were not really bad at all. Just a bit "off". I use a Fluke meter, ambient air and then introduce another gas such as nitrogen to change the O2 ratio to get my results.
My observations... O2 sensors can get "lazy" over time. Not so much that they would throw a CEL, but enough that fuel economy can suffer. Provided you kept your engine up properly, I think it has more to do with the heat cycles than actually standing out in the exhaust stream that makes them "lazy". Changing them at 50,000 like I have has always improved my MPG a bit (~1 - 2 MPG better). If you only have 1 pre-cat and 1 post-cat O2 sensor, change the pre-cat one leaving the post-cat one for another day. If you have 4 O2 sensors (2 pre & 2 post-cat), you should change them in pairs (both pre-cat O2 sensors together or both post-cat O2 sensors together). Otherwise, half of the engine might be running different than the other half due to one side running richer than the other side. But you need not change pre & post cat sensors at the same time. Personally, I have yet to replace post-cat O2 sensors in any of my vehicles. I'd leave them alone and save some money. Also, do yourself or the next owner a favor and use some anti-seize compound. It make life so much easier for the next time they need to come out.

Reading on other forums about O2 sensors- the ECM occillates from lean to rich causing the output from the O2 sensor to constantly fluctuate. If the ECM doesn't see this fluctuation it thinks faulty O2 sensor and goes to open mode. Welding up the hole in the end would prevent it from fluctuating and drilling a hole will probably result in it reading the exhaust as if it were installed in the normal fashion. This is my opinion. If somebody has great success with the non-foulers share the information.

howdy all ran several test on the buick with hyg booster and external portion of the oxy sensor rapped in tin foil 10 wraps still got 25.5 mpg around town about 1 or 2 mpgs short of stock mpg ..installed 2 spark plug adpts 30 mile test run upon returning home and lifting the hood i detected a loping idle removed both adpts.....note the one adpt where i drilled it out didnt have much side clearance ...wrapped it again with tin foil about 18 wraps currently testing ....depending on results...i may go back to one adpt only and see how it preforms...poss wrap that in foil...as you can see i have plenty of spare time to kill ..when i am done i will have run the gamet and should have a definate yes or no on the adpts ..next step tweek the oxy sensor considering several inexpensive devices ...if my 2 carb vehicles are any indicator i feel 40 mpg is a realitic goal on the buick getting 30 hwy now ...will get back asap art

Hi all,
newbe here and wondering If I had a v8 and used a v6 02 sensor wouldn't that read rich in a v8 & lean it out?? Same in a v6 >use a 4cyl o2sensor> 4 bangers are outa luck if this is a valid theory Seems to simple and someone else would have thought of it. sensors not unifiorm in size just came to mind Thanks for sharing I've learned tons here, by the way I'm in the dayton,oh area

O2 sensors read a ratio not a quantity, hence most will read the same no matter the number of cylinders.

Ok I'm back. First off, some of you are correct and some half truths. I've been a master auto tech for 26 yrs. The 02 sensor really measures hydrocarbons. Here's why. The sensors bi metal is very sensitive to hydrocarbon fuels. The reason the 02 sensor needs to be heated is to get the reaction between the bi metals to occur and produce electricity, the new sensors have little toaster elements in them that heat them up during cold starts so they "come online" faster. They are referred to as H02 sensors, meaning heated oxygen sensors. You may put this sensor in a vacuum and heat it up and see no voltage output. Take the same sensor and heat it up with atmospheric pressure and no voltage. Take same sensor and put in pressure cooker and little to no volts output. Take the same sensor and heat it up in hydrocarbons and see the voltage spike up!
Thus, what the oil and car manufacturers have done is fool you into thinking it measures oxygen when in fact it really measures the amount of hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel) mixed in the exaust stream. The manufacturer already knows how much air is entering the engine and exiting the exaust but needs to regulate the amount of fuel, not air, into the exaust..
If you want to pump hydroxy into the engine you will increase the amount of oxygen in the exaust stream, thus to fool the computer you will need to add voltage (not resistance) to the signal that the computer is seeing.
I would suggest starting with a volt and work up. Now you will need to increase the voltage with increased hydroxy used.
Here's a simple method. Monitor the exaust sensors output at idle without the hydroxy used. Take notes of hi and low voltage. Turn your unit on and now measure. Take instant reading (don't wait too long because computer will see drop in voltage and raise the injector pulse on-time to compensate and your voltage will go back up!) Lets say you note a 1 volt difference. Simply add 1 volt to the wire while using hydroxy, this way the computer will think nothing has changed... Now do you understand?

Wow... that's very interesting...

Currently, I don't have any means to measure the Voltage...
Okay.. this might sound stupid but what if I add a couple drops of oil into the O2 extender and weld the tip shut...
Will that make the voltage hike up and consequently compensate the mixture with more air?

Its my observation that the ECU and the engine need to operate in changing conditions/loads, hence taking the sensor out of the loop so to say by blocking it or giving it a static condition would work against us.

It seems to me the best course of action would be to use the EFIE or a similar device to compensate for the addition of the HHO or other fuel alternatives.

This allows for the varying conditions to be read and the ECU to vary the engine parameters.

Redmeanie
Count me in on folks interested. Have already stumbled on building the HHO generator so this would be a help. If you or any of the other Guru's here are producing these items with any success. Please PM me with details...
Thanks
W

I totally agree with you....

Anyway this morning I went ahead with this crazy idea....
Removed the O2 sensor and added some fine steel wool with drops of oil into the O2 extender, put 'em all back together and...
Started the engine and the idle was fine initially... a while later;
Put in gear and upon throttle the engine start to knock and no power to even shift into 2nd... hohohoho...
So i guess the engine is surely running very lean.... even with my HHO turned on...

So the O2 sensor does detect hidrocarbon not just O2....

This is a good explanation that would negate the co2 spacer solution.If true. What range of voltage would you need to range in to cover shift points. How sensitive is the ECU during stop and go verses highway conditions to the fuel mix as it relates to reading from sensor?

still tinkering have tryed about every combo related to the anti foulers on 99 buick ran 4 mpg tests currently running 2 anti foulers coupled at exh manifold both bored out to 1/2 i.d. with oxy sensor exterior wrapped in foil with and without stock air cleaner currently put the k and n filter back in millage has varried to just about stock mpg to minus 2 mpg about 50/50 city and hwy definately have better performance and slight loss in mpg .. i called a booster mfg in phonix..talked to Dan..knowledgable and helpfull..but i already had ideas before i made the call plan on getting the efi to tweek the oxy sensor about $60.00 its a must with computer managed engs also in my opineon you wont get the desired results with out the ability to monotor the results of your repair so i bought a fuel/air ratio gauge FAZE A.Z.$39.99 looks decent i figure you have to get away from that 14.7 ratio or you spnning your wheels more like 16.1 to 16.5-1 IMO... they say you should never exceed a 17.1 ratio on deceleration because its to lean and bad things will come to visit your eng will be a couple weeks till installation...i describe the dimensions of the boosters i built/with resistors (photo on this site) to Dan he said its probably putting out 3/4 of a liter he described to me how the assembled theirs today i mod mine to his spec same container diff plate alignment no resistor involved as follows n-neu-neu-neu-pos-neu-neu-neu neg added 4 plates total of 9 spaced closer with yellow hose washes appx 1/8 in. tested definately putting out more hyd more power... oops... this was all done on my carb ford maverick by the way 16 ga wire getting warm because its pumping 15 amps plus using 10 ga to rewire should bring the amps down to 15 or less in the ball park..going to vegas next weekend this should give me some exact hwy mpg figures with the current sysyem in place will get get back with more info ASAP ART

I have used the non-fouler mod on a Honda Civic since the end of last fall or beginning of last winter. It doesn't work and gas mileage dropped about 30% with that being the only modification.

I used 2 non-foulers together. More power, more gas usage, etc...

About a month ago, I put a nut/bolt in the bottom non-fouler to totally block off any exhaust. I can't see a difference yet but will know by the end of the current tank.

The idea is good and simple but I don't see results. Just negative results. Anyway, it might help people get rid of a catalytic converter, etc... but not for improving gas mileage. Perhaps it can work together with Redmeanie's type of o2 sensor mod..not sure or not needed at all.

Anyway, this is after about 8 months of testing so I really did give it a serious go. I didn't do a lot of driving, it just takes Civics forever to get through gas anyway and I don't drive a lot anyway (work from home). I went through maybe 5 tanks of gas during that time. 10 gallons each tank about. I will post the final result after the current tank is out.