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  #1  
Old 03-26-2013, 04:17 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Using a car to generate emergency electricity

Today's news is showing the terrible plight on the snowed in Isle of Arran, Scotland, with electricity failures which makes everything so much worse.
Arran residents reveal their struggle against snow and gales - Daily Record

Until we can provide a turn-key new energy solution, maybe by this time next year, we note that small petrol engined gensets exist but provide only 1kw or so. But near most marooned houses are one or more cars.

a. Any car is half of a generator system
b. the other half is a suitable generator head, made by Baldor and many others.
c. each home will need a 2P2T changeover switch.
d. the car's fuel system will need a governor to provide a constant speed as the load varies.

Suggested procedure:

1. Jack up and remove a driven wheel.
2. Block up and secure the other three wheels - special attention to the other driven wheel.
3. Using a custom adapter plate, bolt the generator head on to the wheel studs.
4. Secure gen head casing to ground (to stop it rotating).
5. Run cables from the generator head to consumer houses' changeover switches.

What specific advice can we provide to these embattled Scotsfolk?
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  #2  
Old 03-27-2013, 12:01 AM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
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Interesting project, wrtner.

hardest bit - the governor - to provide constant rpm and voltage with
varying load.

easiest bit - two pole two throw switch.

being a newb, you will let me take the latter and come back with ideas.
will deliver tomorrow. E-Mick
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:21 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
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Not as easy as i thought. the name of what is needed is a changeover switch. not incuded in the catalogs of normal building electrcians. i am advised to check out these manufacturers:
Merlin Gerin,
Moeller,
IMO precision controls. - EM
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Old 03-30-2013, 12:24 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Nice work, EM.

It would be nice to attach a Bedini type energiser instead
of a regular generator head, but if the ultimate output is to be 50hz
(or 60hz) at 250 volt, then the complications will be great.

We should be looking at 50kw or so.
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Old 03-30-2013, 03:14 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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Down and dirty, quick and easy

Read about a guy, during an Ice storm, in the U.S., a couple of years ago. Mostof his neighbors went to stay at motels, etc. becuse the power was going to be out, for a week or more, and it was feezing cold. He had an 'extra' car, and pulled it up next to the house. Tapped into the heater hose, and plumbed it up to the 'radiator' heating system for the house, and 'insulated' the hoses. Then, wiredup an inverter to the car battery, for 'emergency' power. Didn't try to completely power his house, just enough heat nad power to 'get by', during the 'crisies'. Shut off several rooms of the house, i.e. didn't use them at all, closed not only connecting doors, but duct registers as well.
1 0r 2 'extra' batteries, (perhaps taken from other vehicles, since if 'snowed in, aren't going to be driving anywhere anyway) might help to 'expand' the system slightly, but such a system is easier, quicker and cheaper than what your suggesting, and could give you enough heat and light to stay in your home, rather than 'bugging out', or freezing to death.Jim
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Old 03-31-2013, 01:59 AM
Mad Scientist Mad Scientist is offline
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Using a car to run an emergency generator is doable, but the thought of a car “jacked up” in some manner to allow a tire to run the generator is something I would find a bit scary.

So if you are going to buy a generator head to do this why not go one step further and buy a small engine to run it? That is what I have done. I bought a new 10KW generator head; it is able to run everything in the house and even the machines in my shop. Now to run 10KW generator you need around a 20 HP engine. I could have bought a lawnmower type engine but they can become quite expensive. However a friend of mine knew a guy who knew someone else that knew this guy who wanted to sell his 87 Honda CRX, apparently it had a bad wheel bearing and he didn’t want to fix.

So one overcast morning we went out to look at it. It was sitting in his parking lot in all its entire splendor. One flat tire, plastic fenders & front bumper cracked, rear bumper held on with a couple small “L” brackets, hood sort of closed, passenger door won’t open, sunroof won’t close, broken hinge on the hatchback but it could be held open with a pipe, interior what was left of it was ripped and torn, however as promised the engine started right up and ran well. It was a thing of beauty; it was just what I was looking for. So I paid the gentleman what he was asking, surprisingly he did not seem the least bit distressed about giving up this gem.

On the way home, with the rear axle bearing screaming like a banshee, I took it kind of easy as the steering had sort of a lose vague feeling to it but that was OK because the brakes really didn’t feel that they were up to high speed driving. Then when the overcast sky turned to rain the arm for the windshield wipers fell off the motor. Stopped for lunch and waited for the rain to let up tied the arm back in place with some ty-wraps and drove the rest of the way home without incident.

I then proceeded to remove the body from around the engine, saving only those wires that were needed to run the engine. Engine turned out to be in surprisingly good condition, inside of engine was quite clean, compression was down in one cylinder but not enough to worry about, a new oil pan gasket & alternator belt and that was it.

Welded up a simple frame, nothing fancy here, all parts mounted in basically the same position as they were in the car. The engine runs at a nice quiet 2200 rpm while tuning the generator at 3600rpm. Total cost right around $500.



Have use electric heaters plus the heat from the engine to heat garage, exhaust is run outside.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:36 AM
citfta citfta is offline
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Thumbs up Very Nice!

Hi Mad Scientist,

That is a very nice build. Do you have an estimate for how much fuel it uses in one hour of powering your house and shop? Also do you have some kind of governor on the engine or do you just set the throttle and let the constant voltage transformer I see control the control the voltage for changing loads. I have to say again that is a very impressive build! Thanks for sharing it with us.

Respectfully,
Carroll
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:59 PM
Mad Scientist Mad Scientist is offline
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It uses approximately a gallon an hour, in the original car that would equate to around 40 mpg.

For the governor I built a circuit to measure to generators output voltage. If the voltage drops too low it starts a motor that turns a crank which it turn pulls on the throttle. If the voltage exceeds a high set point then the motor runs in the opposite direction and closes the throttle a bit.

The constant voltage transformer was just something I had my junk box of miscellaneous parts and it this seemed like a good place to use it, just in case I needed to run something that was voltage sensitive.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:20 PM
citfta citfta is offline
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Thanks

Thanks for the reply. That is a great idea to use a comparator circuit to control a motor to control the throttle. Once again congratulations on a great build. The fuel economy sounds pretty impressive too.

Respectfully,
Carroll
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:44 AM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Scientist View Post
Using a car to run an emergency generator is doable, but the thought of a car “jacked up” in some manner to allow a tire to run the generator is something I would find a bit scary.

So if you are going to buy a generator head to do this why not go one step further and buy a small engine to run it?
Because many a small car can generate 100kw. This is enough
for a whole street of houses.

Also, I would not suggest running the generator head from a tyre
and pulley. This would provide potentially useful gearing but the
generator head would need to be separately grounded. Also, it would
wear the tyre.
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Old 04-02-2013, 08:51 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
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The title

of this thread said 'emergency'. Course, an emergency is in the eye of the beholder. If you KNOW you live in an area which is regularly subject to ice storms, power outages, whatever, its PRUDENT to make some plans for 'what if'? The build IS a great idea, and i like the idea of buying a car with low 'market' value, but decent engine, etc.

For those who have less $, time, effort, etc.an option would be to 'stock up' on an inverter, and a roll of heater hose and some fittings, so they can do as i posted earlier. I too, am not in favor of the idea of running a genset off the back wheel, too many problems with that, in my mind, and simply not necesary. But, to each his own, based on situation, resources, etc.Jim
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:44 PM
Mad Scientist Mad Scientist is offline
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Originally Posted by dutchdivco View Post
If you KNOW you live in an area which is regularly subject to ice storms, power outages, whatever, its PRUDENT to make some plans for 'what if'?
My area frequently loses power during a rain storm. Without power my sump pumps don’t work, without them my basement/workshop will flood. This obviously is unacceptable. If it has been raining hard for awhile and the ground is saturated and with the contour of the land that flooding can began within ½ an hour. Going through some elaborate setup and running extension cords is not an option. So when needed I can be up and running within minutes by simply opening a couple circuit breakers so I can back feed their lines, start generator, and plug it into those circuits.

I like the idea of using the engine coolant for heating. So what other ways can we come with to use this “wasted” heat?
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Old 04-03-2013, 03:50 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by dutchdivco View Post
of this thread said 'emergency'. Course, an emergency is in the eye of the beholder. If you KNOW you live in an area which is regularly subject to ice storms, power outages, whatever, its PRUDENT to make some plans for 'what if'? The build IS a great idea, and i like the idea of buying a car with low 'market' value, but decent engine, etc.

For those who have less $, time, effort, etc.an option would be to 'stock up' on an inverter, and a roll of heater hose and some fittings, so they can do as i posted earlier. I too, am not in favor of the idea of running a genset off the back wheel, too many problems with that, in my mind, and simply not necesary. But, to each his own, based on situation, resources, etc.Jim
I can't see anyone buying a cheap car "just in case". Where would it
be stored? Your idea is fine, Jim, but lacks scale.

My proposal was to use an existing small car with a power rating of, say, 65HP, (i.e. 45 KW), and provide
electricity to a sizeable number of homes from a central position.

There are issue with running a gen head off a driven wheel but they can
be addressed.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:00 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
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Originally Posted by ElectricMick View Post
Not as easy as i thought. the name of what is needed is a changeover switch. not incuded in the catalogs of normal building electrcians. i am advised to check out these manufacturers:
Merlin Gerin,
Moeller,
IMO precision controls. - EM
Also called Power Transfer Switches.

For our American friends, this should do if the amps are OK:
EZ Generator Switch | Manual Transfer Switch
.
.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:38 PM
Mad Scientist Mad Scientist is offline
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OK that’s a cute little generator transfer switch. But you don’t need to get that fancy or have to buy a special switch. Using their furnace example; a typical furnace will have an electrical box mounted to it with a switch to turn the furnace on and off. Remove the switch and disconnect the wires. Punch out an unused hole in the box and run about a foot long cord with a plug on one end through the hole and connect it to the wires going to the furnace. Buy a new cover plate, one that accepts a standard outlet and connect it to main lines coming in and mount on box.

Your furnace is now powered up by simply plugging it into the outlet. Just as if it were like it any other electrical device.

If you need to run it with a generator unplug it from the outlet and plug it into an extension cord and run that cord out to your generator.

This is a nice simple, cheep method that even your aunt Hilda could safely understand and use. Getting her to be able to start the generator might still be a problem.
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Old 04-05-2013, 10:57 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by Mad Scientist View Post
Your furnace is now powered up by simply plugging it into the outlet. Just as if it were like it any other electrical device.
Don't forget that there is a two way switching need here.

The domestic fusebox, the consumer unit, needs a convenient
switch to connect it either to the town's LX supply or to the
generator. (The switching may take place under conditions of
considerable stress - in the dark, hurricane weather, screaming
kids and so on. It needs to be easy and to be performed in
blackout, possibly with the help only of a torch whose batteries
are almost dead).

N.B. We don't know the current rating of the unit as yet.
At the level of the house, the power need should be around 2.5Kw,
10 amps in the UK or 20 amps in the US with their 120 volt standard.
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Old 04-06-2013, 01:06 AM
Mad Scientist Mad Scientist is offline
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The switching is done by simply unplugging from the mains and plugging into an extension cord. How difficult is that?
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Old 04-06-2013, 01:20 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by Mad Scientist View Post
The switching is done by simply unplugging from the mains and plugging into an extension cord. How difficult is that?
You are in pitch darkness.
High winds have blown in a window
Rain is coming in.
Children are crying
Nobody has checked the batteries in the emergency torch for two years.
...which is why it is useless.

Which would you rather do?

Look for plugs and sockets, not having complete confidence about what
is live and what is not
or
Find your way to the fusebox/consumer unit, and flip the switch?

Also, I doubt that many local electrical laws would permit your solution.
Flexible cable is often prohibited.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:54 PM
ZeroMassInertia ZeroMassInertia is offline
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This is a new concept that could provide a solution .It could be a multipurpose Tool for people who have a large property. Check out this link for a mower generator.
Raven mower, rider, and generator at Lowe's (1 of 2) - YouTube
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:10 AM
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Allcanadian Allcanadian is offline
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@Madscientist
Quote:
Your furnace is now powered up by simply plugging it into the outlet. Just as if it were like it any other electrical device.
If you need to run it with a generator unplug it from the outlet and plug it into an extension cord and run that cord out to your generator.
It's good to see another hands on person who can think on their feet as this was my solution as well. This isn't rocket science and I wired my last three houses from installing the meter base and breaker panel to the final fixture installations.

Another option I used is the simple fact that the main breaker completely disconnects the house from the grid. Once the main breaker is open I switch everything off except the furnace and lights then plug in the generator extension cord to a dedicated outlet outside the house.

Another option you may want to consider is natural gas as a fuel as if the **** hit the fan gasoline would be in short supply. The odds of the natural gas supply going down in a disaster is remote at best. After seeing the Quebec ice storm of 1998 I decided to hope for the best but plan for the worst.

@wrtner
Anyone that unprepared probably deserves to be sitting in the dark to reflect on there stupidity, we are all responsible adults are we not?. One cannot claim to be a responsible adult and then be completely unprepared for an event they know will happen at some point in the future(a power failure), that is irresponsible and quite absurd.
The flex cable is called BX, you may want to go look at your furnace because that is what should be connecting it to the power switch by code, BX or conduit.

AC
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:36 AM
bolt1 bolt1 is offline
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I have done this many many times to flip the main breaker first. THEN i place a warning sign beside the breaker box that the supply is isolated - do no switch on!

That reminds me never to turn back on the main breaker unless the generator or inverter is removed from the nearest wall socket. Inverters go BANG in a puff of very expensive smoke should the grid come back while back feeding your inverter into the house. Not to mention you could electrocute someone up the street in downed power lines. Gensets a bit more hardy against this type of abuse and often will just trip the breaker on the genset but don't bank on it.

Of course you can wire in a changeover switch but its additional cost and often needs certifying.

My inverter is 3kw with 6kw peak. Its quite a heavy beast with twin turbo fans Its plenty enough to run the CFL lights, TV, laptops, water pump, washing machine, microwave, freezer and furnace. The home background level is only around 350w while the heavy load items need to be used one at a time. It can run off the car battery with the engine running via extension cord back to the house. Be aware it pulls over 200 AMPS on heavy loads. Basically you can live pretty much as normal just make sure not to use anything that heats up like toasters, hair dryers, water heaters etc. If you are not sure unplug everything first then add the essentials.

I also have a 3.5kw Chinese genset that used to run on gasoline but i converted it to run on NatGas which is extremely economical but its very noisy and so it quicker and easier to use the car for short power outages.

BTW i also a tiny 1200w inverter off ebay only cost about $40 is actually rated for about 900w but will actually run my freezer plus some CFL's. Everyone should have one of these as standard kit.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:39 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Originally Posted by Allcanadian View Post
@wrtner
Anyone that unprepared probably deserves to be sitting in the dark to reflect on there stupidity, we are all responsible adults are we not?.
We should design for people as they are, not as we would like them to be.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:35 PM
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@wrtner
I understand my statement was a little harsh and I do feel for anyone put in a bad position. I have seen disaster and hardship in my life and at some point I got smart. I thought I am letting things happen to me, I am always reacting to events but never planning ahead to prevent them.
I learned what is probably the most valuable lesson in my life ... forethought.

I remember that the moment I understood this simple principal my life became so much easier. I'm not saying we should be paranoid about future events which may be out of our control but taking small steps to minimize risk to the ones we love is a good thing. Doing little things now can make a big difference later.

AC
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:58 PM
Mad Scientist Mad Scientist is offline
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Doing little things now can make a big difference later.

AC
Absolutely! A little planning ahead using “what if” scenarios plus some common sense can go a long way to making an unpleasant situation into something can be easily coped with.

But how can you protect the fool from himself as fools are usually much too ingenious to be stopped any kind of safety device much less common sense. Then when they do hurt themselves it is we who are to blame because we couldn’t imagine anyone being so stupid as to misuse a particular device in that manner.

A few years back we were hit with a major snow storm. We got about 2 foot of snow in a 72 hour period. Starting on Monday there were weather reports of heavy snow for the week end. Tuesday weather report lots of snow coming this way. Wednesday lots and lots of snow for the weekend. Thursday really big huge storm set for the weekend with snow starting around noon Friday. Friday around noon it started snowing and didn’t stop until late Saturday night.

The snow plow guys were totally overwhelmed. Monday morning I’m listening to the radio and some totally brain dead woman called in to complain. It would seem that the guy who was supposed to plow the streets in her little area never got there. As a result because she couldn't get out to the store thus her rug rat had to do without milk and juice and naturally it was all the fault of the snow plow gut because he never plowed her street. Never mind the fact that she had 4 days of warning where she could have easily gone out and stocked up a bit for the weekend.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:18 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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@wrtner
I understand my statement was a little harsh...
In that situation, AC, you show statesmanship. I would that
Margaret Thatcher, who died a dozen hours ago, could ever
have mustered a tenth of it in a similar position.



What about the generator head?

How do we specify a generator head that, with a wildly varying
load, needs to supply the same voltage and the same frequency?
.
.
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:59 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
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Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
N.B. We don't know the current rating of the unit as yet.
At the level of the house, the power need should be around 2.5Kw,
10 amps in the UK or 20 amps in the US with their 120 volt standard.
The US version, 120 volt, is rated at 15 amp. A little more would be nice but that is good enough. With care, users should be able to ensure that switching is done on no load. - EM.
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Old 04-13-2013, 02:42 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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This generator head is only 10kw but is a starting point. It does
not have a flange output plate which would be useful:

NorthStar Belt Driven Generator Head — 10,000 Watt | Generator Heads| Northern Tool + Equipment
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:50 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
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This generator head is only 10kw but is a starting
point. It does not have a flange output plate which would
be useful.
Since the output is AC, the speed must be accurate. Instead of taking the wheel off, why not leave it on as a flywheel, using longer wheel studs to secure the generator?
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Old 04-17-2013, 04:02 PM
Mad Scientist Mad Scientist is offline
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OK who gets elected to sit in the car with their foot on the accelerator so as to to keep the speed constant when different loads to the generator are turned on and off?
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Old 04-17-2013, 09:42 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
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OK who gets elected to sit in the car with their foot on the accelerator so as to to keep the speed constant when different loads to the generator are turned on and off?
Is this what you think happens in power stations, M-S ?
We use a black box.
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