Energetic Forum  
Facebook Twitter Google+ Pinterest LinkedIn Delicious Digg Reddit WordPress StumbleUpon Tumblr Translate Addthis Aaron Murakami YouTube ONLY 13% OF SEATS AVAILABLE!!!*** 2017 ENERGY CONFERENCE ***


* NEW * BEDINI RPX BOOK & DVD SET: BEDINI RPX


Go Back   Energetic Forum > >
   

Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator
Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 04-17-2013, 10:31 PM
Mad Scientist Mad Scientist is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricMick View Post
Is this what you think happens in power stations, M-S ?
We use a black box.
Well I would hope so. In my case I just designed and built one, except I have it in a green box.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote

Download SOLAR SECRETS by Peter Lindemann
Free - Get it now: Solar Secrets

  #32  
Old 04-17-2013, 11:59 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Scientist View Post
Well I would hope so. In my case I just designed and built one, except I have it in a green box.
A green box is better still. Do you want to release the circuit? If a carb is being used (gas as opposed to diesel), we will need a torsional solenoid to control the butterfly valve unless there is a better way to do it. The idea of a device acting on the accelerator pedal (or the velocerator, as Monty Burns would have us call it) might be easier to implement but crude and possibly a bit dangerous. (There could be an overspeed cutout).
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-18-2013, 05:17 PM
Mad Scientist Mad Scientist is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricMick View Post
Do you want to release the circuit? I.
Not a problem. The basic operation is the engine is started with the accelerator in its idle position. This gets its juices flowing without any load and allows it a chance to warm up a bit.
Then the regulator circuit is switched on and to its horror it senses that the generators voltage is way to low so it turns on a motor that pulls on the accelerator cable to increase the speed. This motor will run until the correct output voltage is reached.
If a load is plugged into the generator this will cause the voltage and speed to drop. The regulator sensing the drop in voltage restarts the motor to bring the engine back up to speed and also the output voltage.
Conversely if the load is unplugged this will cause the speed/voltage to increase. The regulator then reverses the control motor to slow down the engine.
Turning the regulator off causes the engine to return to its idle position.

So here is what the circuit looks like.



The circuit is powered by the engines 12V battery, this regulated down to 5Volts. The output of the generator is also stepped down through a small transformer. Whose voltage is rectified and further reduced to be within the working range of the 5V supply. However at this point the 5 or so volt change in the generators output, that I am trying to maintain, proportionally is quite small.
Thus IC4 is wired as an amplifier (gain of 10) to get the change in voltage up to a point where the comparator circuits (IC1&2) can easily detect the changes.

If the sense voltage is low IC1 turns on a relay to “up” the engine speed.
If the sense voltage is high IC2 turns on a relay to slow down the engine speed.

Alright you now have a motor that can run forward or backward depending on the output of the generator. But now you need to convert that rotary motion into a push/ pull for the accelerator cable. Here is how I did it.



A gear motor, mounted to bottom of plate and slowly turns crank which moves lever. (Scottish yoke) Accelerator cable is run through a hole near the pivot end of the lever and is held in place with a screw.
The motors control relays are mounted on the angle bracket to the right.



On the bottom there is a cam that operates the high and low limit switches.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-20-2013, 02:45 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Scientist View Post
...so it turns on a motor that pulls on the accelerator cable to increase the speed. This motor will run until the correct output voltage is reached.
Very interesting post, M-S.

But what about the frequency? What looks after that?

Is it true that when you buy a generator head, you specify the
voltage and the frequency. Then, so long as the rotational speed
of the shaft is adjusted until one of these is true, then the other will
be true as well?
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-20-2013, 04:54 PM
citfta citfta is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,223
Constant speed is the key

Hi wrtner,

Yes you are correct. If you maintain the proper speed then the frequency and voltage will be correct for a given generator head. As the load "current" increases the engine or moving force must supply more power to maintain the speed and thus keep the voltage and frequency in the proper range.

Just consider a small portable generator with a gasoline engine. The only control on the engine is the mechanical governor. All it does is make sure the engine is always running at the same speed. Yet the small generator can handle varying loads up to the limit of its design.

I believe MS could have taken the sine wave signal of his generator and converted it into a stream of pulses and feed them to a regular cruise control for a car and accomplished the same thing based on frequency instead of voltage. Either way will still give you good control. I suspect he had some reason for doing it the way he did. Maybe he will share that with us later. He has certainly done a great job on his design and build!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
Very interesting post, M-S.

But what about the frequency? What looks after that?

Is it true that when you buy a generator head, you specify the
voltage and the frequency. Then, so long as the rotational speed
of the shaft is adjusted until one of these is true, then the other will
be true as well?
Respectfully,
Carroll
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-21-2013, 05:28 PM
Mad Scientist Mad Scientist is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 563
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
V Then, so long as the rotational speed
of the shaft is adjusted until one of these is true, then the other will
be true as well?
Correct! However with a small generator it is virtually imposable to precisely maintain either one. But then for all practical purposes it does not matter. Most appliances can easily tolerate a 10-15% variation in voltage. If you are running a motor a change if frequency will cause a corresponding changes it the motors speed. But aside from running an electric clock this will not have any noticeable effect nor cause it any harm. Matter of fact if you have any machine tools that need to run at varying speeds a “variable frequency drive unit” is a common way to achieve this. Frequency changes from half of the motors rated frequency to double it are considered normal.

A car with a cruse control would be a convenient way to control the engine speed. However the car that I purchased did not have that as a option and even if it did it probably would not have been working.

Regardless consider this, if a car is to be used to run the generator because of the differential the wheel speed will be first reduced by the axle ratio then if one wheel is on the ground and not turning the other one will run twice its normal speed. With a direct drive to the generator this is probably going to be too slow without revving up the engine.

Also so whatever load is placed on the generator that load/torque is also applied the other wheel, via the differential and which will be trying to move the car! Then if by chance the car has a limited slip differential it will move the car and that might tend to get a bit exciting
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-23-2013, 02:27 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Scientist View Post
Also so whatever load is placed on the generator that load/torque is also applied the other wheel, via the differential and which will be trying to move the car! Then if by chance the car has a limited slip differential it will move the car and that might tend to get a bit exciting
This reminds me of driving into muddy conditions when one wheel
in a mud pool, spins wildly as the other, on terra firma, stays still.

I think the problem will increase as the generator load increases. At
10kw, it is possible it may not be an issue.

As the power drawn off increases, we could think of two 12" chocks
and a thick webbing strap to secure the other wheel. (I am not sure
what to say about limited slip diffs. Work needed).
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-25-2013, 12:46 PM
Allcanadian's Avatar
Allcanadian Allcanadian is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 659
@wrtner
Quote:
But what about the frequency? What looks after that?

Is it true that when you buy a generator head, you specify the
voltage and the frequency. Then, so long as the rotational speed
of the shaft is adjusted until one of these is true, then the other will
be true as well?
This conversation brings back memories of the 1st year Power Engineering lab at college. Everyone had to pass a "stress test" in which we were required to bring a big old "D" type boiler on line, fired on oil no less, then bring the steam turbine generator on line and synch it with the city power grid. To make matters worse the instructor would make something go wrong during the run up and we had to determine what the problem was and correct it.

I remember a few students just grabbed their hard hat and threw it on the ground and walked out, cursing as they left, a little too much stress,lol. The first thing they teach you is to think on your feet, don't get too excited and work the problem through, that is sheer panic is not a sign of professionalism.

We used a Synchroscope, to synch to the grid which is a relative measure. That is we do not aim for 60Hz because the grid is never at exactly 60Hz so we match the generator frequency to the grid frequency wherever it may be. My instructor said one operator dropped a generator online without synching properly and it snapped the 6" hardened steel shaft of the generator cleanly within a second. Mind you that was 30 years ago and most everything is now automated however there are some very old systems still in operation.

As easy way to synch would be two 120v to 5v transformers driving an op amp or comparator(differential amplifier). If the two inputs, generator and grid, are synched or equal then the output is zero. Basically when the dummy light goes out your synched and we close the switch to the grid, no brainer.

AC
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-29-2013, 10:26 AM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allcanadian View Post
We used a Synchroscope, to synch to the grid which is a relative measure. That is we do not aim for 60Hz because the grid is never at exactly 60Hz
A great anecdote, AC. In the UK, there is another method to feed back to the grid with a black box. no idea how it works. But if this idea got taken further and this was to be done (I think fuel costs would get in the way unless someone had a gas solution based on bio-mass or similar - potentially HHO), your experinece tells us thast we need to be careful. -EM.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-01-2013, 09:24 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post

Just consider a small portable generator with a gasoline engine...

The only control on the engine is the mechanical governor...
Don't forget that the fuel can be untaxed - red diesel
for diesel engines. (I don't think there is a petrol equivalent
- very unjust).

Where do we go for retro-fit mechanical governors? Hard to find.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 05-16-2013, 03:51 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
Tornadoes - Many in Texas needs electricity.

Tornadoes cutting off mains power:

Thousands lose power after deadly Texas tornadoes | khou.com Houston

Are there any people in Texas to put a big push on this
project to get power to the people (if they have cars,
generator heads and a few more bibs and bobs?).

What is lacking?
1. interface between the wheel and gen head
2. governor
3. differential issues and what happens to the other wheel.

Paul-R
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 05-16-2013, 05:21 PM
inventionmaster inventionmaster is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 94
Hi

Interesting project. I like
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 05-20-2013, 09:58 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 18
Now Oklahoma is being trashed. theres gonna be extensive power outtages.

Massive tornado slams Oklahoma City area - CNN.com

Never have our ideas been more needed. i will look into governors. we need someone to work out how to join the gen-head to the wheel flange - or the wheel itself if it can be left on with longer wheel studs - to act like a flywheel.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 05-21-2013, 09:54 AM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricMick View Post
Now Oklahoma is being trashed. theres gonna be extensive power outtages.

Massive tornado slams Oklahoma City area - CNN.com

Never have our ideas been more needed. i will look into governors
I wonder if we should shelve this and, for the first
implementation, start with a vehicle with cruise control.

The urgent issue then becomes interfacing the generator
head and the wheel. The industry seems to like tapers
which I see as quite annoying.

Paul-R
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-31-2013, 09:37 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
I wonder if we should shelve this and, for the first
implementation, start with a vehicle with cruise control.

The urgent issue then becomes interfacing the generator
head and the wheel. The industry seems to like tapers
which I see as quite annoying.

Paul-R
Lets leave the wheel on.

A load of these gennies are designed for a drum and belt arrangement which could have a huge benefit - of giving a "step up gearbox", the step up being the diameter of the wheel divided by the dia of the drum on the genny shaft. This means the car can run at a more comfortable RPM.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 06-04-2013, 02:07 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricMick View Post
A load of these gennies are designed for a drum and belt arrangement
If the car were to be jacked up higher than usual
then the gen-head could be underneath it, with a
belt running between them. The gen-head could be
on a timber resting on the ground at one end and
supported at the other end by the drum/belt. Tension
could be adjusted by weighting this timber.

Paul-R
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 09-15-2013, 12:26 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
Colorado floods.

Disastrous floods in Colorado.
---------------------------

These horrific events remind me of this thread. I wonder if
anyone knows anybody who works for a genny head manufacturer
or distributor who would donate units to development work.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 09-23-2013, 03:23 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
Disastrous floods in Colorado.
---------------------------

These horrific events remind me of this thread
And now it is the Phillipines and China. Of course, it will not be lost on you smart folks that China is a leading world supplier of ideal generator heads. It will take little to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s of this proposal.
EM
__________________
 

Last edited by ElectricMick; 09-23-2013 at 03:37 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 11-10-2013, 10:54 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
...and its the Phillipines again

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricMick View Post
And now it is the Phillipines and China.
...and now its the Phillipines all over again.

Devastation is bad enough but so many more have no electricity while there are cars on streets and generator heads in warehouses.

Engineers in the Phillipines should benefit by finishing this project off and putting it to work a.s.a.p.

Paul-R
__________________
 

Last edited by wrtner; 11-10-2013 at 11:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 11-16-2013, 04:46 AM
Peter Kiproff Peter Kiproff is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 19
One method to connect the wheels to the genset might be like a dyno or Clean Air drive through, with 2 long pipes & the wheels are resting on top.
This removes any problem with differential or connecting to wheels.
a belt joining both pipes with the genset, the pipes will turn much faster than the wheels. I'm sure with a long lever " 2*4 " the pipes can cam up to lift the wheels off the ground a couple inches, or screw jack them closer together.

One other thing that you might need is heat & a car produces lots.
There was a man that took the rad out of his vehical & ran big hoses through the window of his house with the rad inside the house. the rad fan moved the heat around inside.

do you think fire hose would handle the temp ?

Regards Peter
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 11-16-2013, 04:03 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,000
Seems to me

you don't NEED firehose; just use radiator hose; its MADE for it; if you need/want large diameter, use radiator hose, smaller diameter use heater hose.Jim
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 11-16-2013, 04:14 PM
dutchdivco dutchdivco is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,000
it also occurs to me

the people in the Phillipines, (for instance) aren't dieing and getting sick due to a lack of electricity; its lack of food and POTABLE water. Since you've got this thing using a motor to generate electricity, and, as pointed out, such a motor is going to generate a lot of heat, how about considering incorporating a water purifier. In almost ALL of these disasters, potable water is a big problem. Post Katrina, or the Phillipines; they are surrounded by water, its all over the place. But, the 'municiple' water has been 'polluted' by sewage, petroleum fuels, dead bodies, etc.
And so, (in many cases) people drink the 'bad water' and get sick. Anyway, just a thought,....Jim
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 11-18-2013, 06:37 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchdivco View Post
the people in the Phillipines, (for instance) aren't dieing and getting sick due to a lack of electricity; its lack of food and POTABLE water.
There is a fallacy here.

What you say is true of those worst affected.

However, when these events happen, there are almost always a large number of people who are virtually unaffected - except that their local power grid has been knocked out. Transformers have blown up, as can be clearly seen in a Hurricane Sandy video.

What happens in a hospital, overloaded with casualties, if they have no back up genny or it can't handle the needed power level?

Cars can generate 50KW, with careful organisation, enough for a street of homes.

The principle could be extended to trucks.
.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-13-2014, 10:42 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
It's happening again.

Thousands flooded in England but tens of thousands affected by loss of electricity. We can't help with the water but can we finish off a project together to provide electricity?

Torrential rain, high winds and floods cause transport chaos and power cuts | Environment | theguardian.com

"Heavy rain across western parts of UK to cause even more flooding as violent
storms leave 80000 properties without power".
.
__________________
 

Last edited by wrtner; 02-13-2014 at 10:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 05-14-2014, 12:26 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 18
Ive been having a think and it is tricky finding the gennies. the americans sell them - north star - but it will be a fortune to get one or two shipped to the UK. who makes them here (in the UK)?
__________________
 

Last edited by ElectricMick; 05-14-2014 at 12:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 12-07-2015, 02:35 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 18
As u said a while ago, wrtner, its back in the news again in Carlyle. Terrible flooding but the situation made so much worse by major power cuts to people who are not even in flood zone.

Storm Desmond: Fallen tree, power cuts and no trains - Northumberland Gazette

We should try to get this project off the ground even if it is not what this board is really about..
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 10-08-2016, 03:38 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
Hurricane Matthew is causing devastation to huge numbers of people but a lack of power should be avoidable.

Can we not get this idea off the ground?

Hurricane Matthew hits Florida leaving 340,000 without power on first impact | Daily Mail Online
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 01-26-2017, 03:22 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
News has come through that Gaza is short of electricity. If they can find an old knackered car with an adequately good engine, and fuel (possibly with an HHO booster care of Chapter 10), then all they need is a genny head and some control circuitry. I suspect that one of the big manufacturers might give them one - Meccalte, Northern Star?.
__________________
 

Last edited by wrtner; 01-26-2017 at 03:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 01-27-2017, 02:01 PM
ElectricMick ElectricMick is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 18
There may be seriously damaged or burnt out cars there. Nevertheless, the chances of the engine working are pretty good. They may well need new hoses, engine mounting blocks, HT cables, distributor rotor arm, maybe new distributor. Carburettor will need checking out and a new air filter. Possibly plugs. The nuisance will be taking the engine out of its frame and giving it a nice new one. - and of course a genny head, around 40HP.
__________________
 

Last edited by ElectricMick; 01-27-2017 at 02:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 02-09-2017, 05:17 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 895
I should have mentioned that the Gaza Geeks are fund raising on Indiegogo. Here is the link for those who might like to contribute:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/s...-accelerator#/

Their main site is here:
https://gazaskygeeks.com/powerup/
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Please consider supporting Energetic Forum with a voluntary monthly subscription.

For One-Time Donations, use admin@ this domain > energeticforum.com

Choose your voluntary subscription

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v1.4.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2007-2015 Copyright - Energetic Forum - All Rights Reserved

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator

Tesla Chargers