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  #1  
Old 03-14-2013, 09:20 AM
MantaRay MantaRay is offline
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Underwater Steam Jet

This thread is intended to carry on from this one but with more of a focus of the mechanics of the underwater steam jet (intro articles 1 and 2). Pursuit Dynamics have been developing an underwater jet engine for marine craft. They have also produced a similar machine for fire extinguishing.

The engine is simple, therefore energy efficient (no moving parts and 99.9% thermal energy of the steam is used for work). Not only does it claim to be very efficient (more efficient than propeller engines) but the fact that it runs off steam means it can be run on most other fuels other than diesel. This benefits the cost, carbon emissions and flexibility. Other benefits such as low maintenance and doing less harm to marine environment are a few amongst others. I have not found any significant cons to the engine so far.

A basic overview of the engine is found here with more detail here and the patent here.

The general principle is based on the water hammer effect. The steam is jet sprayed with high pressure into a open rear chamber where it mixes with water and air bubbles. When the steam comes in contact with the water it condenses back into water and in doing so creates a vacuum. This vacuum causes water to rush in to fill this void. This is an implosive reaction in contrast to most engines that are explosive. The reaction is directed rearward so that the jet stream creates thrust.

You can do an experiment of the hammer effect yourself (1, 2).

Few extra videos (1, 2)

I intend on building a prototype of this engine for experimental use. As soon as I get some results I will post photos/videos.
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  #2  
Old 03-14-2013, 11:05 AM
MantaRay MantaRay is offline
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* New post as I cannot update the previous one.

Basic diagram:



Another basic diagram (same engine but different use - processing pump)

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Old 03-14-2013, 11:25 AM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Oh how I love the hammer...

Seems quite simple [the beauty of steam !:"]

thx for sharing

☤ Physiká For Future Tesla's ☤ : Understanding Water Hammer & Cavitation (Compilation) - YouTube


Chet
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:37 AM
MantaRay MantaRay is offline
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I will be building a prototype today as the 6mm microbore copper pipe has arrived for the mini flash boiler. It will not be ready for testing until tomorrow though.

There are some simple toy mechanisms that use steam in a somewhat similar way to the water jet, namely the Pop-Pop boats. They simply work by heating water in a small copper coil until it turns to steam. When the steam reaches a particular temperature (above 100c) it also reaches a particular expansive pressure which causes the steam to expel from the copper pipe to behind the boat, therefore propels the toy boat forward. This expelled steam causes low pressure within the coil so at the inlet water is sucked into the coil for heating and the cycle repeats. Here is a clearer explanation of the cycle.

Unlike the steam jet I am investigating currently, the Pop-Pop boats are propelled by the expansion of steam, not the implosion. However, the boat could be modified so that it works in both ways (in theory). The current Pop-Pop boat configuration consists of the inlet and outlet being places in the same direction (fig.1). By moving the inlet to the front of the boat (fig.2) this may cause water to be sucked/pulled in from the front and expelled/pushed out the back. This configuration fits well with Newton's third law.

pop.jpg

If anyone has any experience in Pop-Pop boats or have experimented with similar ideas it could be interesting to explore it further.
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Old 03-16-2013, 11:52 AM
tachyon tachyon is offline
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When there is a low pressure gradient on the front of the boat by the implosion , the higher pressure on the rear of the boat pushes the boat forward but this is not traditional jet propulsion where there is conservation of momentum acting between the expelled mass and the mass of the vehicle, the pop pop boat you say acts like jet propulsion or like the hose of your garden.
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Old 03-19-2013, 07:21 PM
MantaRay MantaRay is offline
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My experiments has been delayed due to a lack of a welder. No way can any glue, cement or anything non-metallic be able to deal with the temperature and pressure of the heat coming from the steam. I am in the process of building a HHO torch to help me in this project and others.

Meanwhile, good old Grant demonstrates a steam vacuum here.
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Old 03-20-2013, 05:57 PM
MantaRay MantaRay is offline
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Meanwhile I have been thinking about how the steam implosion could work within a piston configuration. Simply have a steam inlet that fills the piston chamber, then a cooled-water spray inlet that condenses the steam and an exhaust out let for the moisture.

It turns out there is in fact such an engine that was invented in 1712 and used as a water pump. It was invented by Thomas Newcomen in which you can see a small working model here.

This engine maybe far more powerful than a conventional steam engine due to the fact that all the heat energy from the steam is used up in the implosion - no waisted energy. The implosion also seems to have a much stronger force than the pressure used by steam in conventional engines.

I originally imagined a double acting process where in each stroke is caused by an implosive reaction. While one piston is imploding, the other piston is inleting steam which the pressure can help in the push/pull relationship (unless the pressure of the steam inlet does not have an effect but actually is sucked into the chamber due to the implosive force of the other piston.)

steamimplosionengine.jpg

A lack of tools to build a prototype of these ideas is very frustrating.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:43 AM
tachyon tachyon is offline
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you need to have a pressure differential in order for this to work it's the pressure outside of the chamber doing work NOT the implosion if you were to do this inside a vacuum space nothing would happen.

where are you going to put the piston rod? you need to create an air tight space to achieve a vacuum otherwise nothing will happen..or are you going to use a magnetic piston and use some coils to extract energy?
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:24 PM
MantaRay MantaRay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tachyon View Post
you need to have a pressure differential in order for this to work it's the pressure outside of the chamber doing work NOT the implosion if you were to do this inside a vacuum space nothing would happen.

where are you going to put the piston rod? you need to create an air tight space to achieve a vacuum otherwise nothing will happen..or are you going to use a magnetic piston and use some coils to extract energy?
tachton, there is a huge pressure difference between the collapsing steam on one side of the piston and the expanding steam on the other side. In usual double acting steam engines the exhaust steam is being pushed out the cylinder by the fresh working steam - so some of the work is waisted in exhausting the used steam. In the configuration I presented the new fresh steam is actually being sucked into the cylinder by the opposing collapsing steam on the other side. The unit is coherent and working together rather than against itself like in most other engines. For example, in an internal reciprocating engine, some of the work is used to compress the fuel/air mixture (and to ignite it for 2 stroke) in order to gain work. Again, with the gas turbine, some of the energy from the driving turbine is directed to the compressor turbine in order to work.

The cylinder needs to be air-tight for sure but the electrical induction unit will be outside of the cylinder in connection with the rod.

For now I am still experimenting with steam and soon I will have the tools to test the jet.
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Old 04-01-2013, 05:00 PM
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Allcanadian Allcanadian is offline
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@MantaRay
This has been tried before and there are a few reasons why it was not successful. When steam at 100 degrees C condenses to water at 100 degrees C it gives up 2257 KJ/Kg of energy. This is called Latent heat where there is a change of state but no change in temperature. So when we add a cold water spray to condense the steam this cold water absorbs the 2257 KJ/Kg of energy and ends up at a slightly higher temperature.

We could say we have turned hot steam and cold water into warm water and diffused the energy which we cannot recover. This is the hidden loss most people overlook and the reason the condensing steam engine is no longer used. Another problem is the fact that the cylinder walls which are cool from the last cycle condense the incoming steam as it enters the cylinder before it can do work. Then we lose again when the cold water spray absorbs heat given to the cylinder wall by the steam which has now condensed.

There may be ways to work around these issues but these are the main problems with this technology.

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Old 04-01-2013, 06:20 PM
MantaRay MantaRay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allcanadian View Post
@MantaRay
This has been tried before and there are a few reasons why it was not successful. When steam at 100 degrees C condenses to water at 100 degrees C it gives up 2257 KJ/Kg of energy. This is called Latent heat where there is a change of state but no change in temperature. So when we add a cold water spray to condense the steam this cold water absorbs the 2257 KJ/Kg of energy and ends up at a slightly higher temperature.

We could say we have turned hot steam and cold water into warm water and diffused the energy which we cannot recover. This is the hidden loss most people overlook and the reason the condensing steam engine is no longer used. Another problem is the fact that the cylinder walls which are cool from the last cycle condense the incoming steam as it enters the cylinder before it can do work. Then we lose again when the cold water spray absorbs heat given to the cylinder wall by the steam which has now condensed.
This issue did come to mind when I first thought of it but when I saw this video and read about the Newcomen engine I discarded the concern. However generally I agree with the theory you have described, and my priority still remains with the steam induced jet therein the theory is been put into practise (although I have not seen a working video of the underwater jet).

I am curious as to your thoughts on the jet.

My concerns of the workings of the steam induced jet is:
1. if there is not enough steam pressure entering the jet would the water be sucked up and through the steam inlet then into the boiler?
2. how does the jet create a shockwave?
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:21 PM
Ruphus Ruphus is offline
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I have built a pop pop boat using the simpler coil method. There isn't an inlet and and outlet. Both ends are both in and out. I didn't understand why they moved until I read that the water that is sucked back into the coil to equalize pressure actually helps with forward movement because of it's forward momentum against the coil.

Be careful with high pressure steam!!!
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:20 PM
philmZ philmZ is offline
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jet engine tested?

Hi MantaRay,
Just discovered your thread when looking for a steam marine engine. Great explanations and links, thanks!
It's 5 months late but, did you experiment the engine? Is it working fine?
I wonder if it need an initial cold water flow?
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:43 PM
MantaRay MantaRay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philmZ View Post
Hi MantaRay,
Just discovered your thread when looking for a steam marine engine. Great explanations and links, thanks!
It's 5 months late but, did you experiment the engine? Is it working fine?
I wonder if it need an initial cold water flow?
Hi Phil. No I have not tested it to the extent I wanted due to lack of materials and tools and over time I lost some interest in the project. However, I did do some tests with the limited supplies I had.

I constructed an experimental jet using two aluminium tubes - a smaller inner tube and a larger outer tube where the outer tube tapers off at the end where the steam and water mix. It was a poor setup but it was good enough for an initial test.

Firstly I just blew into the inlet that was attached to the jet (the small acrylic hose) and observed how powerful my breath was in propelling the jet through the water. The jet moved very slowly but surely. I then attached the inlet and tried my best to attach it to an outlet of a pot of boiling water that produced some steam. After some time tweaking I finally got the steam to feed into the jet and when the steam/water mixture occurred it thrusted through the water instantaneously. My previous test with my breath just did not compare. The thrust produced by the collapsing steam felt like a shock.

I did not make any quantifiable measurements but I can tell you it works and if done properly I expect it will be very powerful. It does seem as though all the energy is literally being sucked out of the steam.

I would encourage others to give this a go. It is very fascinating to see how powerful steam is when all it's energy is being utilized for work.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg jet.jpg (99.3 KB, 41 views)
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:13 PM
philmZ philmZ is offline
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Thanks for your quick reply!
Hmm, interesting, do you have other photos of your setup? I think of building one too if I can
did you keep the pressure generated by the steam or was it open?
did you keep the temperature from boiling pot to jet (insulated pipe) or was it a regular pipe?
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:33 PM
MantaRay MantaRay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philmZ View Post
Thanks for your quick reply!
Hmm, interesting, do you have other photos of your setup? I think of building one too if I can
did you keep the pressure generated by the steam or was it open?
did you keep the temperature from boiling pot to jet (insulated pipe) or was it a regular pipe?
I get email alerts to this thread so the replies are pretty quick

Unfortunately I do not have any more photos. I crudely and simply tried to follow the diagrams and patent drawings of the jet. The main things to consider:

waterjetpatent.jpg

There were a lot of both pressure and temperature leakages through out the setup. If you have a way to weld and cut aluminium with the appropriate mix of aluminium tubes then you could have a lot more fun than I did.

BTW - I did not even have to aerate the water in my test to get it working. Aeration improves the steam/water mix thus giving it more power and efficiency.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:21 PM
philmZ philmZ is offline
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Thanks again! It's very useful.
I really don't get how mixing air can improve it? My intuition falsely presume that vacuum would be more effective without air around since this added gaz is compressible and may "absorb" the shock.
Unfortunately I cannot weld aluminium so I guess I'll try with plastic, but since the shock can happen before reaching the exhaust it might need extra work.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:31 PM
tachyon tachyon is offline
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use copper and jb weld instead?
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:49 PM
MantaRay MantaRay is offline
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Originally Posted by philmZ View Post
Thanks again! It's very useful.
I really don't get how mixing air can improve it? My intuition falsely presume that vacuum would be more effective without air around since this added gaz is compressible and may "absorb" the shock.
Unfortunately I cannot weld aluminium so I guess I'll try with plastic, but since the shock can happen before reaching the exhaust it might need extra work.
In effect the air creates turbulence in the mixing chamber which allows for the steam to more effectively mix with the water. Without the turbulence the laminar flow of water will only collapse the steam around the circumference of the steam outlet of the mixing chamber. I found that during the tests I did the steam would often 'flashback' into the steam chamber. The aeration mixture I would assume would prevent this while also distributing the steam within the mixture chamber so that the vacuum would be centred. This is my assumption anyway.

Here is another view on it.

PDX.jpg

Also, using plastic has its limitations due to melting but it could work for some initial experiments.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:53 PM
MantaRay MantaRay is offline
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use copper and jb weld instead?
Give it a try but the combination of water, heat and pressure will likely break break anything that is not aluminium. It all depends on how far you want to take it I suppose.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:09 PM
tachyon tachyon is offline
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bronze pipes?
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:05 AM
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Ok, air flow looks pretty important so it adds a compressor to the energy list and another parameter to tweak.
About the steam chamber: Did you tried the complicated designs we see in drawings? Have any hint how to design it properly?

Yeah, plastic is poor man's solution, bronze is not available for me (it's for the production I think). Aluminum and epoxy should work too. I expect leakage.

I'm just curious and want to understand why and how it works, I won't make a 300hp engine BTW, I've seen PDX manufactured a lightning fast bechamel maker but no marine jet engine AFAIK, now PDX news talks about acquiring ... gambling websites (?) What happened to them?
Is the conclusion that it's a better mixer (food, fire extinguisher) than a propeller?

Oh, I forgot to ask: how to regulate the power? Does steam pressure and/or air flow are linked and can manage the output without loosing efficiency? Does it have a minimum shockwave/speed? And a max one? How to (easily) track efficiency?
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Old 09-03-2013, 07:22 PM
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any reply?
Would love it
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Old 09-05-2013, 06:52 AM
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it works because liquid water has smaller atom spacing compared to water steam, since water steam is heated its atoms collide more frequently because more kinetic energy and hence the bigger pressure, when water steam cools to liquid water the volume is reduced hence pressure is reduced below 1 atmosphere... and that happens instantaneously , outside pressure does the work on the system Force=DifferenceInPressure*Area
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Old 09-05-2013, 07:01 AM
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Thanks tachyon.
I guess I'll have to test for myself and draw a conclusion.
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Old 05-21-2016, 06:02 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Thanks for the Reboot on this one

I need to get back in the water !!



Also to try a Nice strong standing wave.. in a purpose built [by mother nature ] cavity resonator .

Like the one mother nature made for the pistol shrimp ,.

a friend recently reminded me of the "emissions" which manifest around a cavitating propeller in water .

respectfully
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Old 05-25-2016, 04:56 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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been giving this thought

tutanka
Quote
We are talking of mechanism of nature for energy creation.. Meyer was wrong.. the thermal explosive energy don't born from hydrogen and oxygen.. I was wrong about nitrogen.. no chemical reaction appear inside Meyer reaction.. you don't need ionized air .. this is just for confuse the mind.. because the process is very simple and anyone can make this.. we are talking of hydrogen bond energy.. when the steam impact on cold water condense into droplets. Water is like an wall and this collision release electrons from droplets.. these electrons are absorbed from the air making negative ions like in an waterfall. The final result is repulsion force of positive atomic nuclei. The smaller the droplets are, the more bonds have been broken and the stronger the observed overall repulsion (explosion) becomes.
end quote
-------------------------------------------

Thank you for your thoughts on this .

A lot of the above would seem intuitive ,some would need additional clarity ?

have you done experiments which manifest these results ?
can you make some recommendations for experimenting with this ?



respectfully
Chet
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Old 02-15-2017, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMSET View Post


Thank you for your thoughts on this .

A lot of the above would seem intuitive ,some would need additional clarity ?

have you done experiments which manifest these results ?
can you make some recommendations for experimenting with this ?



respectfully
Chet

You need suggestions? If an tube 20 centimetres long, 9 centimetres in diameter, and weighs 2.5 kilograms can produce 22kW of thrust you can make simply an artificial hydroelectric generator of 3Kw for power your home or your car. The steam is just the kinetic energy needed for obtain the reaction on water .. condensation of water droplets and the action of HBE (hydrogen bond energy) directly on anelastic water and you obtain an water jet with an pressure three times the initial steam pressure.. finally you obtain an silent water electric generator with an efficiency >90% that can works in LOOP mode 24h/day without need an battery storage. You can produce the steam in various ways.. solar, wood ,oil OR diesel, gasoline, gas... This is the first step to energy independence!! That's isn't enough for you??
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:56 AM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Magical.....

But completely plausible IMO

I dream often of this project , however machining/fabricating in the dark
is a pleasure I have no time for ATM

a sea drive with no moving parts running on a condensate shockwave
would take some unique manifolds [with one way flow
[there is a design somewhere for this "one way" flow

this type of prototyping enters the domain of the casual fabricator with 3D printing

the world is changing !

and oh what fun it will be !!
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Old 02-21-2017, 08:18 PM
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Now i need rossi MAHG.
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