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Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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  #1  
Old 02-22-2013, 09:59 PM
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Aaron Aaron is offline
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Exclamation Open Source Issues?

I'm just opening up conversation about open sourcing energy technologies.

There are a lot of issues that come up, some justified and some are not and there are some inherent contradictions about the whole "mission" of "getting out to the world for free."

If you share something open source because you believe the information should be freely available - what does that mean to you?

If it is open sourced and freely available, then essentially, you just put it into the public domain. If that is the case, that means anyone can do anything they want with it including making it and selling it. That is the whole point of public domain - it then becomes public property for anyone to do anything they want with it.

If someone puts something into the public domain and their desire is that anyone can use the info for personal use, first of all, no such requirement can really be made because you can't make public domain information conditional. Once you give it up, you give it up.

If there are objections to someone taking the info and building and selling it, then do you plan on making it available to others by building and selling it yourself? If not, why not? Why should the grandmother at the end of the lane not benefit from it because she doesn't know how to use a soldering iron or anything else?

If someone wants to build it and sell it to people that cannot or will not built it themselves, how can anyone have an objection? The info is public domain and if there are such objections, that completely contradicts the entire claim that the information is being given out freely to the world, etc... for what? So that only people that know how to build it can benefit and nobody else? There is something intrinsically wrong with that. If that is the case, then maybe 1 out of 10,000 can benefit while claiming that it's given as a gift to the world.

If you want to share something and put it out for the world to see, the first thing to understand is that once you do that, you do not own it or have any claims to it anymore. This is just the reality of it. Anyone can do what they want with it including taking it, packaging it and selling it.

There can be ethical arguments, but that is a completely different issue from whether anyone can legally do it while not having a single thing that can be done about it. I think it is better to have the blessing of the originator just out of goodwill, but that is not a legal requirement - just a personal preference.

If you have something and want to "share it with the world" - please understand, you have no say so about what happens to it after that. If you think you should have a right to say something about it, then it comes down to the fact that you should not share it or you should patent it, which goes against, what some open source researchers claim to be against. If they're against patenting something, then they ought to be against having any claims to their own work by "giving it out for free."

I have seen this issue creep up once in a while on this forum and elsewhere - where someone freely shares their work, someone takes it as their own, doesn't give credit, tries to sell it, etc... It's happened to me several times over the last 5-6 years so I can speak from experience and I've seen it happen to a handful of members here and elsewhere.

What does everyone else think?
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Last edited by Aaron; 02-22-2013 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:22 PM
Nick_Z Nick_Z is offline
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Aaron:
Thank you for clearing that up for us.
I do agree with your statements, and feel that it's good to have it come directly from you, as one of the representatives this forum, and of its "mission" and purpose.

Nick_Z
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:25 PM
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Agreed, things you put out for free are public domain and just like the term "give" means.. It's no longer yours, it's whoever received it.

The real problem is that we have people who abuse this.
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:31 AM
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Peculian Peculian is offline
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A Big Dilema

Greetings folks.

Me too, I think it is a Big Dilema: to "open source" something you have, or not .!? :\
I agree also there are people who could really benefit from ones generous offer
but there are also people who are eager to use a generous offer from someone who open sourced
his invention or whatever info useful, with pure and clear good intentions, and this
abuse, as we know is a really bad situation.
Lets get some real scenarios to think and make our mind if we will go the open source route or not.
For example:electricity.
to this day we are speaking and chatting through this and other forums, we know there are myriads, billions of good use for electricity.
But there are, also, the same, if not much more "bad uses" of electricity, and it seems
alot of people use it the unright way.
One of the great bad uses of electricity is its use in military systems, either supporting
weapon systems or electricity as a weapon itself (HAARP-like style etc).
another example is oil refinery.
Its true that oil serves humankind for decades now, but it`s first uses were(&are), as you all know for the military vehicles and weapons.

Or your inox-metal kitchen knife for example.
You can do work with it so you can make meals etc..
But what about the bad use of that simple tool ?
Really bad results. Dont you agree ? How many people have been killed by someone
hitting them with that simple innocent-looking tool ?

Internet is a big indicator as for what can be used a form of technology (in this case the World Wide Web) for good or bad.

Another example: The swis methernitha closed community:
They decided to not give details about their famous free energy device.
What do you think: was their choice wise or paranoid ?
What you, would have choosen to do with that device if it were your own invention ?
Of course you agree that many people could have changed their lifes for good.
But, also, many people could easily took the info and abuse with the invention in countless ways.

Tesla decided to not make public some of his most ineresting devices.
I bet he had really good reasons to do what he did:hide them from other people.

Everybody thinking or considering to open source his invention/technology
should think deeply and balance pros vs. cons before making a decision to that big step.
It depends alot on what are the inventors motives for keeping his tech closed
or to decide to open source it.
It might also be a win-win situation... .

Thoughts welcomed.
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:13 AM
Dave45 Dave45 is offline
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If its truly free energy do the right thing, give freely, sure some smuck will try and sell it but we will be building it for our friends our neighbors anyone and everyone, making cd's with complete instructions with video's.
We need to make it happen as a people, a grass roots movement
Viva le revolution
99%
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:34 AM
totoalas totoalas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave45 View Post
If its truly free energy do the right thing, give freely, sure some smuck will try and sell it but we will be building it for our friends our neighbors anyone and everyone, making cd's with complete instructions with video's.
We need to make it happen as a people, a grass roots movement
Viva le revolution
99%
Cite you an example japan built factories in china and after a decade its all made in china
From cd to dvds and mobile phone at a cheaper price
They allways introduce high tech to the grass root level
Make one new gadget and china will flood the market
Thats how thrh play yhe game
In a forum we discussed and improve new ideas
And as you said for a friend and relatives to enjoy
No choice once you open source
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:44 AM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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The Price of Nice

Aaron
Thank you for opening up a discusion here.
An Organization which relies heavily on Good PR in an extremely competative market is unknowingly contributing to something the average 5 yr old knows is wrong to do regardless of the "Laws".

Slayer felt safe sharing without the law to protect him here
he just asked that it be kept "private".

All things considered .

What would you do?

Thx
Chet
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:26 AM
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IMHO I would open source everything I could but in reality there should be in different society unfortunately. When there would be no poverty or limited resources and everybody would work on passionate ideas for better world and every person benefits. Do you know such place ? Do you know such society where you do not struggle to get food for another day not mention some electronic parts to finish prototype , collecting them in MONTHS ?

So if inventor will be treated the same or better as a famous actor, then every idea will be open sourced.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:44 AM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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I like that tune

Boguslaw
Funny you should say that,

For in this particular circumstance we are talking about a "star" Albeit an undiscovered star. [oh how the world loves that story !:'}

And this is EXACTLY how to proceed.
Perhaps if we put the first footprint on that path ,the respect you speak of
will actually have a chance to become a reality?

See in this case there is more to Slayer than a circuit, think about the rest of the story?

@Boguslaw right here right now your vision for the future is being formed
by the men in these forums.

I will be so bold as to say.

A star is born ...

One that needs our help so the path less traveled
can get a few more footprints on it.

Besides the world has always needed Hero's
something to believe in !

Thx
Chet
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:37 PM
Zardox Zardox is offline
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If I ever truly discover something that will benifit others I will put it out there for everyone to see and use. At that point I know that some people might well twist it and use it in ways I don't like or agree with.
So you have to ask yourself what are your motivations. If its money and greed then you are not going to share it.
If your ego cannot stand someone else getting credit or not giving you credit then you probably shouldn't share it.
If you want to advance the world and help people then getting it out there for all to use is in my mind the best option.
I have seen first hand in industry where one company uses an idea that was patented by another company only to find after long and expensive litigation that the patent was not really worth much. Unless you are one of the very large deep pocket corporations the courtrooms more often only benefit the lawyers.
And by the way even the big stars have people singing karoake at the local bar down the street.
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Old 02-23-2013, 02:05 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Your looking at the wrong star

Zardox
The star is the concept

To have the Passion ,the will ,the desire and the Skill. to put your personal safety and well being ahead of your desire for fame and fortune..To go out of your way to teach others about this passion.
to spend countless hours of your personal time and miniscule
resources to help make this world better for all....



Slayer is a man who does the right thing and lives by example....

This is not about patents and copyrights

its about moments like this when that Passion has an opportunity to be shown some grattitude......

What example will we set ?
?
Thx
Chet
PS
I will not be posting in this thread again, we'll never change the way things are if all we do is type.
lots to do.............
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:30 PM
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My Opinion, when you share something Open source, it should got the same rights and Status as a protected or patented Device or Circuit.
Means, when you put something into Public Domain as Open Source Technology, noone should be able to make Money with it by selling Plans or anthing from it without agreement from the last main Inventor(s) or get punished.
It works the one way, why should'nt it work the other Way.

But you see there the Lobby behind, what try to keep her Sales concept at all cost alive.
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:55 PM
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Michael John Nunnerley Michael John Nunnerley is offline
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Look at the numbers

At the time of this post there are 332 people veiwing EF of which 50 ONLY are members, the rest 282 guests!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For me I will never post anymore my hard work, I will find a way to put it into the public domain, built correctly and at a cheap price, protected from the one's who just want to rip people off, and yes I would have something in there for me, after all I was the inventor, at least pay my costs and a wage.

Mike
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Just under two years ago I asked for help here when I had a problem with my son, out of XXXXXXXX members here only 5 gave me support, dosn't say much of a community spirit does it?
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:40 PM
Bob Smith Bob Smith is offline
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I guess I would have to agree with Dave - that ideally it's really about improving the lot of humankind.

I run a website with a lot of downloadable educational resources stipulating that they are freely available for non-profit use. I'm paid for my work, and to put it online for use in the school system that employs me. I see that it is being downloaded all over the English-speaking world. I have decided that while I'm paid for my work, I might as well share it to help other people out who might not have the time or expertise to prepare these kinds of resources for their schools and classrooms. I'm aware that some people may try to take what I've done and publish it and make money off it. But that's a risk I've accepted, hoping that like Dave says, it'll help make things better for people who might use it. However, in the event that I retire or leave my job, I will likely put together more resources and a publisher. The labourer deserves his wages.

It's good we have our eyes open about putting information on any public forum. Not everybody joins forums for altruistic reasons. For some, it may help improve their skills and business. But when the reality of money and control of resources/profits enters the picture, people do cherry pick technological developments to either suppress or profit from other people's innovative work. Those who engage in legally permissible but morally objectionable conduct like this know better, and have to live with their consciences. It's a mixed world, and I still think enough of us have to continue trying to do the right thing, perhaps being 'cunning as serpents, but gentle as doves' to use the biblical expression. Perhaps attaching a creative commons licence to one's work might be part of the solution. A colleague of mine in the educational field is now doing this with his work posted online.

I would hope that Slayer and others who've had their work and name purloined will have the creative juices to continue innovating, and if need be, to find a way to support themselves with the fruits of their labour and talents.

My thanks to all of you whose free sharing of talent has helped me learn so much.

Bob
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:39 PM
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freely giving without an agenda

Creative Commons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've seen some comments before about using Create Commons licenses to protect technology, but from what I've read, it doesn't even apply.

The Creative Commons agreements are based on copyright laws for pictures, text, drawings, etc... you could use it to protect your own personal diagram of a schematic for example and give people the right to use it as long as they give you credit for it, etc...

But that in no way actually protects the technology that the diagrams, schematics, etc... describe.

I just found this: Patent Tools Public Discussion - CC Wiki
But that only applies to someone's IP if they ALREADY have a patent.

There are obviously a lot of heated opinions about patents by those in the "free energy" field but the reality is that at least for the United States, if it wasn't for the patent office, we'd still be riding horses. If someone can't reap the rewards of one's own efforts, they're not going to risk putting all their time, money, effort and resources into developing something when someone else can simply come along, steal it and give back nothing in return. And anyone that feels they're automatically entitled to other people's work is shameful and only reflects a low self esteem issue, nothing more.

My own opinion is that you put put something in the public domain, you might as well kiss it goodbye because you have no legal recourse to do anything about anyone else taking it and doing what they want with it, including making all the money they want without giving you a dime.

Also, I feel that if someone wants to share some technology publicly, it should be done without any agenda attached and should be given with blessings that it will create prosperity for others - meaning the attitude should be that of gratitude that someone is able to make it into a business. Not that I agree with how it was done in regards to that person taking Slayer's designs and raising money with attitude attached to it as well as he is doing. But, if something is shared "for the good of all", people that can't build it themselves need to be able to buy it from someone and if you're not going to make it and sell it, someone has to so why have an issue with it? If there is an issue with that, that means it wasn't given freely and you expect only people that can build it should benefit. That's kind of selfish in my opinion.

One of my closest mentors that died a few years ago had a very goodwill attitude towards his own technology. He has invented many things throughout his life - world's largest embroidery press, fail safe pull pins on fire extinguishers, the first net playpen's for kids, and many medical devices. One medical device's patent finally expired and the Koreans, Russians and Swiss all created their own knockoff version of his device. Instead of feeling that he should be entitled to what those companies are earning off his own invention with an expired patent and can't do anything about it anyway - his attitude was "Thank God! Even more people will have access to it!" And even later on when he was partners in a company selling some medical devices, he started to sell the Swiss made unit because he liked it better than his own and never expected a penny in royalties from the Swiss company.

So if someone open sourcing information "for the betterment of the world" has an attitude any different than that, in my opinion, they are being completely inauthentic and have an agenda and never really freely gave it to begin with.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:56 PM
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Peculian Peculian is offline
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Post

All of you guys posted really good point and observations, and thinking better
I agree with most responses.
But, I must say that I agree more with the folloing words by our fellows Ramset/Chet and Bob Smith:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMSET View Post
To have the Passion ,the will ,the desire and the Skill. to put your personal safety and well being ahead of your desire for fame and fortune..To go out of your way to teach others about this passion.
to spend countless hours of your personal time and miniscule
resources to help make this world better for all....


Slayer is a man who does the right thing and lives by example....

This is not about patents and copyrights

its about moments like this when that Passion has an opportunity to be shown some grattitude......

What example will we set ??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Smith View Post
I guess I would have to agree with Dave - that ideally it's really about improving the lot of humankind.

I'm aware that some people may try to take what I've done and publish it and make money off it. But that's a risk I've accepted, hoping that like Dave says, it'll help make things better for people who might use it. However, in the event that I retire or leave my job, I will likely put together more resources and a publisher. The labourer deserves his wages.

It's good we have our eyes open about putting information on any public forum. Not everybody joins forums for altruistic reasons.
It's a mixed world, and I still think enough of us have to continue trying to do the right thing, perhaps being 'cunning as serpents, but gentle as doves' to use the biblical expression. Perhaps attaching a creative commons licence to one's work might be part of the solution. A colleague of mine in the educational field is now doing this with his work posted online.

I would hope that Slayer and others who've had their work and name purloined will have the creative juices to continue innovating, and if need be, to find a way to support themselves with the fruits of their labour and talents.

My thanks to all of you whose free sharing of talent has helped me learn so much.

Bob
@Mike
You are a great contributor to this forum as far I am aware.Many thanks to you.
It`s sad that not more persons other than the 5 ones you mention, didn`t help you with your troubles.
As you know, we, the members here probably live far from each-other. (me at the mediterranian sea btw.)
But even if we lived near to one another it will most probably not be as easy to be of help.
That`s because most of us here strugle with our own problems, such like Boguslaw said,
we try for long weeks and months to collect some tid-bits of electronic stuff and trying to do something useful
out of them when other people (the consumer-only,types of folks) do not give a damn
trying what we all here, despite economical and other problems try to do
for the best future of humankind.
But, do not be discouraged ! You are not alone in this run!

Me myself, I try whenever possible to help other folks around me here giving from my free time,
teach or help them to build something to start with, in this fantastic journey of free energy seeking adventure,
meanwhile helping each-other about daily-life troubles.
I bet, that many guys here, do the same thing!
(once I had the chance to help someone who unfortunately cause of the language is not part of this forum or other energy-seeking forums,
to turn a piece of scrap into a very useful device of electro-domestic use.
This lesson he got is with him now, and the responsibillity is within him on how he will gonna use his new-gained experience.)

What I am trying to say here folks is:
Never underestimate the power and knowledge you have and/or are using it
for the benefit of others.

A message to the non-registered members:If you follow this forum and others like this one, then I strongly suggest that you
enter-register and be a part of the energy&info revolution.
This is the most effective way to be part of the incoming change.
The status-quo needs desperatelly to change, so please enter the wheel
of change to give it more momentum, so we do this more quckly.
As long humankind does not adopt what Tesla started and we, the others in forums like this try to keep goin,
then there is more(only) drawbacks and misery than goods.


Allow me to Echoe this sentence of Bob:
My thanks to all of you whose free sharing of talent has helped me learn so much.

Best Regards
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:39 PM
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There is plenty to go around

There are many examples of where people are making money using public domain, open source, expired patents, etc... and there is plenty to go around.

Look at all the HHO cells, condensators, EFIE circuits, etc... that so many companies are making these days. You don't see the big giants making these since they can't get exclusive rights but collectively, there is a LOT of money being made by all these companies combined - and they don't owe royalties to anyone.

If you open source something you can expect that a big company will NOT be making it for sale but plenty of small companies don't mind. If it is really "for the benefit of the world" - anyone contributing to the open source movement should be the greatest cheerleaders for these companies taking their ideas and making a business out of it. It isn't much of a contribution with the intention that it can only be used by those building it themselves.

If it is a useful invention/contribution, it can help someone earn an income doing something good and making it available to those that need/want it.

The only valid concern I see from an open source contributor is if that person has plans to use his own ideas to earn money and wants first dibs on making money first, then he/she risks someone else beating them to the punch and getting deeper market penetration before they can get started. If that happens, then it will be tougher. In that case, don't open source it yet - get your own business off the ground, do your launches, etc... and after you get going, others will eventually find out if they can build and sell it too but you don't have to volunteer that info.

There is no requirement for anyone to volunteer a lot of information up front for something anyone wants to earn money with while having no problem with others doing the same. Meaning - it is still a valid open source concept to basically say nothing, just launch your business and let others take it upon themselves to fine out if they can copy your device and sell it too. If you don't patent it and the information goes public thru your company, the idea is then public domain I believe. If someone copies it, you simply don't have recourse and probably don't want to pursue it anyway if you want to "give it out to the world." This way, you got it out first and if someone copies you, there is nobody that can take on the whole world exclusively anyway. Walmart, Apple, etc... are monsters and they in no way, shape or form have the ability to capture their markets exclusively for the whole world so thinking that some other small business is a threat it completely out of touch with reality.

Most people in this field also don't know the difference between public domain, copyright and patent laws and most of what I see quoted are complete misinterpretations of it all or is an opinion pulled out of thin air.

You hear - "oh, you can build anything from a patent for personal and non-commercial use." That is myth, patent law explicitly forbids anyone from building any patented item for personal use - look it up, its a fact. It is just unenforceable for common sense practical reasons and they even admit that. They're not going to go knocking door to door to see who may be making patented items for personal use. Bedini's circuits are all patented, but he obviously has given everyone a blessing to build a device for personal learning purposes - you just can't sell it.

You also hear - "there is no copyright so it's public domain." Well, since Mar 1, 1989, adding a copyright notice is OPTIONAL! Your written works are AUTOMATICALLY copyrighted the moment they're posted even if there is no copyright notice.

And - "If you post something publicly, it is public domain and you can't get a patent on it." More false misinformation - from the moment you reveal something publicly, you still have up to 1 year to file a provisional or regular patent application.

And then there is the whole concept that to "save the world" we need to get out mystery free energy invention x, y or z. That's ridiculous. With normal everyday things right now, anyone can increase their home insulation, convert to all LED lighting (getting less expensive all the time), etc... and bring your home energy costs down to next to nothing and all without using one single exotic "free energy" technology. And once the energy use is down, you can get high quality solar panels for $1.50 per watt if you really look - which is 200-400% cheaper than they were just 3-4 year ago! So every time I see the claim that we're all doomed because some free energy inventor keeps his ideas to himself just reveals that person to be drama queen, period.

One thing that isn't appreciated much in the free energy community is that all the principles and parameters that must be met for a device to be "overunity" are all open sourced, completely known to not be a mystery, etc... empowering someone isn't giving them a specific schematic - it's letting people know the parameters that the systems must meet - that way anyone can take those principles and build any mechanical device, electromagnetic, etc... and get overunity. Overunity results are predictable in this manner. It's like having the "source code" for making something overunity and that is literally what the "open source" movement was based on - seeing the source code for a software program. However, this free energy field has attracted a lot of people that have no interest in learning the source code - they want the final program handed to them while out the other side of their mouth, they're extolling the virtues of open source and completely miss the whole point. I know I'm not the only one that sees this!

DISCLAIMER - Do not take this as legal advice - consult your own attorney.
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:26 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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reflections

I suppose some clarity is in order,
Apparently in this community the level of commitment to the planet and our future seems to have been kept in a box?

We work out side this box all the time in our work here,however we must climb back inside when it comes time to "Open source" .
To add to this odd mix between in and out of the box,the experimenters completely understand that to really have an effect people must work together in something other than a business "model" which is subject to the will of investors.
They know it will take a community that at the very least watches out for each other if this goal of autonomy from "established procedure" is ever
going to be a reality.

And then we have this example of the "community" model......[TT Slays Slayer]

Basically saying get your but back in the box fellah you should have known better..........

What would you do ???

Its the little Red Hen scenario, Except the Hen is willing to share the hard work with her community of peers [the ones trying to "really" work towards change with no resources ].

And some individual with no interest whatsoever in the "Vision" of this community recognizes the Hen is vulnerable [do to the communities apparent
indifference]
Runs in and Takes the hard work.

her communities response?
Yah shoulda known better..............

Then they slaughtered the hen and had a feast......

[Don't know why these fairy tales are always so Brutal ?]

However whats happening here is quite Brutal........
And it reflects on this ehhrrrr Community???? !!

Thx
Chet
PS
I left out one part,There where others watching the Hens community and realized how easy it would be to "take"
from them................
QUICK EVERYBODY BACK IN THE BOX!!!!!!!

If you want to see change in this world
"BE" that change...........

Slayer knows this its how he lives!
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  #19  
Old 02-26-2013, 04:34 AM
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Turion Turion is online now
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I have to apologize. I have been on this forum for a few years now, reading stuff and making comments nearly every day, and I did not and do not know about what is going on with Slayer or MJN's son. Sorry guys, but I don't read every post on every thread, so lots of stuff slips by me and I am sure it has slipped by others.

Most of you don't know me, but I can tell you I once gave a guy on one of the threads $1,000 just because I felt like he needed it. Not because he deserved it, but because he seemed to need it at the time, and I had it. I haven't worked in a couple years (retired) so that won't be happening again soon. But I am a firm believer in doing my best to help out those less fortunate than I am.

With that in mind let me say this. I don't trust people. None of them. Too many folks are out to get what they can at the expense of others, so I am also careful about who I deal with.

I believe the BEST way to get this technology out there is to develop small groups of folks working together for a common cause who share with each other. When you have something that works, you share with your group. Gradually you expand that group. Everybody knows a few GOOD people. Sure, a bad apple will creep into the box now and again, but you have to expect that and be ready to weed them out. Just be cautious.

My wife works in intellectual property law, so I have explored these issues with her on numerous occasions. There is NO good answer. Believe me. I have consulted with EXPERTS in the field of intellectual property law. Any successful free energy device can be shut down in a heartbeat under the National Security statues in the US. Don't think for a minute that a free energy device doesn't fall under their jurisdiction, because I promise you it does. That is if the big energy companies don't get to you or your family first. The chances of ever realizing a dollar from a patent on a free energy device are billions to one. Because as soon as it is filed and it is proven successful, every major corporation that has any patent that is related will file against you for patent infringement. It doesn't even matter if their case is bogus. They buy up old patents for pennies on the dollar just so they have those patents on their shelf to pull out and use against you to file. Do you have the resources to fight off 10 lawsuits, or 20, or 30? A free energy device is an awfully tasty pie and EVERY major energy company is gonna want to throw that pie in the trash or keep it for themselves.

Share with those close to you. Share with those you trust. Expand your circle slowly, DON"T post it on the forums for thieves to steal. If it is true and right, and you share with good folks, the truth will get out there, and the world will be a better place for it. You may not make a lot of money, but you might just become famous as the man or woman who changed the world, and that will be worth riches untold. It won't be the quick way or the easy way, but it is the BEST way.

Dave
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Last edited by Turion; 02-26-2013 at 04:36 AM.
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  #20  
Old 02-26-2013, 03:41 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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A layer on the onion

Dave
Sounds like a good Model towards ultimate success !!

The status quo has formed many layers of protection on this "compliant" onion,
It is a self sustaining entity with seemingly limitless resources.Some just
get rolled up in the system live a good life and "comply".

Others trying to make a break from the Onion, look to inspire ,teach
and share at great personal risk and expense.Hoping beyond hope that
their efforts don't just Bounce off the skin of that onion but will some how get thru to the suppressed masses trapped within.........

However having no resources to sustain this effort,[deaf ears] another layer starts to form on the onion,this time at the hands of personal ,individual greed!
The onion keepers smile and help Paste this newest layer nicely into place.

All is well in the Garden.........

Thx
Chet
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:05 AM
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For The Record - GBluer (Slayer) Exciter

I’m posting this for the record because this is no small matter. There is a copyrighted document by Dr. Stiffler that includes a schematic of one of his SEC exciters which clearly proves that the so called Slayer exciter is a very close variation of Dr. Stiffler's SEC exciter circuit. The document I’m referring to starts by stating “Beginning in 2001 Dr. Stiffler began exploring special oscillators of his design…. This document can’t be legally posted and I don’t know if there is a link to it but Dr. Stiffler just uploaded a video of a 2 Coil Electrolyzer that includes SEC exciter schematic. At 3:10 in the video, as Dr. Stiffler goes over the circuit he states "This is a standard configuration for a SEC exciter.”. Over the years Dr. Stiffler has used his SEC exciter circuit in various configurations, this is just the latest:

2 Coil Electrode Gas Measurement Part 7 Series Final - YouTube

I captured an image from Dr. Stiffler’s video of his SEC exciter schematic and have attached it along with GBluer’s exciter circuit from page 5 post#66 of the OverUnity/GBluer (Slayer) Exciter thread, in one of his very few and brief postings about this issue GBluer stated that this was the circuit that TeslaTronix was using. When I went back to double check that I was accurately posting this information I found that on page 4 post#59 of the same thread GBluer posted the following:

“This video is to show how you can use two diodes and one LED for a indicator light for your exiter.
It helps with tunning and hepls protect the A.

Dr Stiffler uses it in his SEC 18 series and it also works very good with this circuit.”

GBluer was clearly and openly following and using Dr. Stiffler’s work. In the following video, GBluer starts by stating that Dr. Stiffler uses the two diodes and LED to make an indicator light. Dr. Stiffler’s primary reason for using the two diodes and LED at the base of the transistor is not to provide an indicator light, GBluer later removed the LED in his experimental circuit.

Exiter with indicator light - YouTube

Not only did the basic exciter circuit and the two 1N4148 diodes at the base of the transistor come from Dr. Stiffler’s circuit but GBluer also used the same MPSA06 NPN transistor, 1 megohm resistor and referred to it as an exciter circuit. GBluer only removed the series LC tuning circuit that was in parallel to the two diodes and LED in Dr. Stiffler’s SEC exciter circuit and experimented with different configurations of the same circuit.

Knowing this, who can objectively consider GBluer the original inventor of this exciter circuit? As others have rightly pointed out, the burden of proof is/was on GBluer to prove that he was the original inventor. I think it is reasonable to conclude that he would not have made it through the patent process if he had tried. GBluer can’t have it both ways: Imply he is giving away the exciter circuit that he is experimenting with by sharing it in the public domain and also try to retain the rights to something he never proved was his to begin with.

GBluer has remained very quiet about this. Instead others, especially Kultus (DesertExperimenter), have represented him very badly with some verifiable lies and exaggerations that I detailed in the other forum thread. How about we not attack someone before fully investigating the facts and not try to put a stop to someone, like some might argue ‘Big Oil’ would do, by using lies, exaggerations, double standards and safety issues.

Let’s give well deserved credit to Dr. Stiffler, whose work this originates from and credit the others as variations of his exciter circuit when applicable.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Dr Stiffler and GBluer Exciters.jpg (373.7 KB, 21 views)
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  #22  
Old 03-01-2013, 05:07 PM
Nick_Z Nick_Z is offline
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Rfacts and All:
Here was Slayer's reply to your comments:
"RFacts the only thing in your post your right about is I am a big fan of Dr Stiffler and his work.
If you would have taken the time to build the two circuits before you posted you would see they are nothing alike."

My question is: How are they not alike? I'm not trying to form an argument, but, would really like to know.
I'll bet that Dr. Stiffler would have the same opinion, that is, that the two somewhat similar circuits are NOT alike, or working in the exact same way.

This is all about a copyright laws, or personal rights, or permission rights to use the previously posted materials. As anyone can make a change to a previously posted circuit, and call it there own version.
Is this also an infringement???

Please don't take me wrong, as I'm also a fan of both Slayer, as well as Dr. Stiffler.
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Old 03-01-2013, 05:28 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Everybody Back in the box........

To intimate in anyway whatsoever that Slayer is all about the Money!!??

Is that the feel your gettin here Nick?
That Slayer putting up even the smallest of fences [please don't use this for Money]

what , You think he has been a secret business Plant ,sequestering
info for his own Venture someday,just waiting years and years to grab just the right moment??
How Savvy??????
Or perhaps he did not want to encourage this type of behavior [TT]
that would surely stifle all further contributions from fellows with good open hearts looking to share to men of like mind.

???
I suppose blasting RF around the room lighting bulbs for a few hundred more years will do then?
trying to involve other people in this community like Slayer has done with Stiffler,is a cause lost to
laws and the need to inforce them?

So its a case or "sharer beware" when you pass thru the doors of our community ??

TT has done a very good job then ,may he get all he deserves in the "everyman for himself" world he lives in!
THx
Chet
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:18 PM
Nick_Z Nick_Z is offline
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My question was in asking how the two circuits are different, or alike. As well as what constitutes an actual change. I'm not putting any other insinuations to it. Nor taking sides to this issue. I respect all opinions.
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Old 03-01-2013, 06:40 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Silence speaks volumes

So does not taking sides......

A symbiotic relationship exists between the true altruist and those that support him [her] or benefit from their efforts.

This typically causes a Flow all its own, a support mechanism will develop if like minded people follow suit....

Or Not !!

Nick ,whats happening here has absolutely nothing to do with "laws" and circuits

and everything to do with what side you are on and which example you wish to support!!
Stffler has been dragged in as an attempt to show a connection to
Slayers poor character ...I suppose to try and justify the Horrid example of TT ??

the insinuation causes a most foul odor.

The silence is deafening.........
Thx
Chet
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  #26  
Old 03-01-2013, 08:29 PM
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Friends, every electronic circuit was already invented before....in vacuum tubes time or in early transistors....
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  #27  
Old 03-01-2013, 08:48 PM
Nick_Z Nick_Z is offline
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If you feel that taking sides will make a difference, then so be it.
I value your opinion, and understand your logic.
That there should be some kind of warning that this kind of thing can happen. Yes, people should be aware and understand that any information presented on these forums can be used by others, as that is the whole point of open source. That is not only my opinion.

Nick_Z
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:05 PM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Silence speaks volumes but what does it say ?

It could be saying that people are tired of arguing the point when it's a clear
cut situation.

Slayer open sourced a circuit. Now anyone can use it any way they want.

Slayer thought his circuit was "his" but it wasn't.

Here's the facts. Open source means the source of circuit is made open for any
and all to use and improve on in any way they want without fear of legal or other
actions against them with respect to the use of the source info/data/code.

If Slayer didn't want that then he shouldn't have open sourced it.

Now for a person to open source a thing they need to have rights over it to
begin with.

Ramset, the question is. What is it about Slayers circuit that makes it not
already open information ? What does it do that is different to existing circuits ?
Or what is the unique circuit arrangement he uses to produce an effect ? Be it
a new effect or not.

If it's about the diodes then lots of people use diodes to bias bases ect. He
certainly can't lay claim to that.

If the actual components arrangement or effect that Slayer claims to be his
idea is outlined and detailed then it can be discussed as to what others think of that.

Now I'm not saying I agree with either party in this dispute so I am not taking
sides. My opinion is there is not much special about the circuit anyway.

There are a few ways to arrange a circuit to produce those effects with a
Tesla type coil. One way is a feedback oscillator, which has been done for a
long long time already. There are a few different basic types but they all do
the same thing basically.

Maybe the silence is deafening because most people couldn't be bothered to
argue about such a common and unimportant thing.

From what I can tell Slayer is going to go into competition with the guy and
undercut him. Which shouldn't be too difficult with the Slayer brand name.

Or did he forget to protect the "Slayer" brand name as well. Because he
doesn't own that either unless he formally claims it as his.

Cheers
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:47 AM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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If this were an open source project we had to build together to survive ,
and these young men toiled away at a Job some of you would not bother to do,or was beneath your skill level.
If our future depended on it being built strong and true and perhaps others donating to the cause [technologies]to help once they saw the dedicated community bound together by a common goal.
----------------
Millions of views on Utube have been done by these Toilers for many many years ,they have been a part of this community that has made us quite proud, a true asset towards bringing attention to the cause ,some may cringe at this claim however they do bring in new people and show a good ethic and value system.

then this happens ???
And the first real chance this community gets to be a community.
the conversation turns to some circuit.

Its not about a circuit a tube a technology etc etc etc .........
its about a wrong being done to an open source project by a couple of kids that apparently don't know any better!

As well as a community of people [kickstarter]being swindled by these boys into thinking they are helping them do something original for the world.

These Types of Scoundrels Take anywhere anytime they can ,they are amoungst us all the time
Opportunists that would step over your dead or dying body on the way to the
Bar ,Hang out or street corner to Brag about their latest "take"!!

Sometimes they are even right next to you in places you thought were "sacred".

We need to organize ,we need to stand up for whats right ,Not what fits into the box of suppresion !!
next time they could come for you......
Thx
Chet
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Last edited by RAMSET; 03-02-2013 at 08:11 AM.
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  #30  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:41 AM
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Rfacts Rfacts is offline
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Open Source Issues

ramset keeps further exposing his irrational nature as everyone can see from his posts, this leaves no opportunity for a calm well reasoned discussion. He repeatedly jumps to false assumptions and conclusions to suit his agenda. ramset avoided responding to these primary questions directed at him because they are a death blow to his irrational ramblings:

"How can wrong be done to an open source project if the circuit in question did not belong to the claimant to begin with? Wouldn't you want to make sure you got it right when valid questions are raised? Do you prefer to be a part of a subgroup in this community that turns a blind eye to inconvenient facts?"

ramset is doing more harm than good to this community and he is oblivious to it. His significance diminishes with every irrational post, his unsubstantiated comments mean nothing. I’ve made two assertions: 1) Dr. Stiffler deserved the credit for the use of his SEC exciter design and 2) There is no need for a smear campaign against anyone. If you think you have the facts on your side then make a well reasoned argument to support and not hurt who or what you are standing up for.

I previously stated I do not know Teslatronix and didn’t think he handled this right, I have not contributed nor supported his business venture and do not plan to. I clearly stated that I apply the facts consistently, some are being so subjective and biased that it didn’t sink in. Credit should go where credit is due, this applies just as much to Teslatronix as it does to GBluer.

There are three parties central to this controversy whose words settle this issue. Most importantly we’ve already heard from Dr. Stiffler who has confirmed my assertion that he deserves the credit for the use of his SEC exciter design:

GBluer(Slayer) Exiter

We’ve yet to hear from GBluer and Teslatronix giving Dr. Stiffler his due credit.

There are some fundamental principles and morals involved here. Our actions define us. Is ramset, kultus and others who’ve been supporting and defending GBluer now going to support and defend Dr. Stiffler for not getting his rightly due credit?

This is my final post about this, I've addressed my concerns and confirmed my assertion that Dr. Stiffler deserves the credit for the Slayer exciter circuit in question.

"One should not jump to conclusions before they have all of the facts and should not assume that they know more than the other, nor should they make bad assumptions about the intentions of others."
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Last edited by Rfacts; 03-04-2013 at 03:56 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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