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  #61  
Old 11-21-2012, 12:11 AM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMSET View Post
Gabe
wrap that heat vessel in a manifold, styrofoam or whatever ,,make it water tight [put a plastic bag inside when your done].

or better yet if you can slip it into a tank ?

No the elec motor is not going to be a part of this heat test ,yes that is not completely fair because your motor makes heat too...

however,
you are really going to like finding out "what you got "!!

There is a line in the sand ...one side of the line people yawn and scratch their shorts.....say, yeah no big deal.

The other side of that line ................

the line for heating water ?
roughly
you take 0.1 kwh , thats exactly how it will look on your KWH meter [0.1]
one liter of water 120 degrees temp rise.
two liters 60 degrees
etc etc
thats unity [well close enough for this test]

so when your done building the tank ,measure its volume
do the math.
don't start your test until the temp of all components has stabilized.

Conversely you will have to let it "sit a bit" after the test due to your "stored heat issues".

That being said if you hit the line [temp rise] at shut down,
Do the happy dance.

one other thing that you should do is a control run, take a cheap immersion heater with your exact same water volume and run 0.1 kwh of power
check the temp.

I have simplified the process, before you do a run call me.
Chetkremens@gmail.com
PS
One thing I should mention
if you cross that line,your life is going to change [along with everyone elses.......]
Hello
Thank you and I will getting in contact with you for the testing.
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  #62  
Old 11-21-2012, 12:22 AM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenssurplus View Post
Hi Slapstick and All,

I wanted to build one of these for a number of years and have been collecting # 10 can steel lids that were cut out from the top of cans to build my version of it. I have probably 30 or so now, but have not drilled them to mount to a shaft yet.

I could use your help so that I don't have to go through the same 1,000,000 test versions and experience the same bugs you have found.

There is a drive motor energy saving circuit called the Rotoverter that does spin a 1 horsepower 3 phase motor on about 20 watts (or less depending on bearings etc...) - no load. I don't know the amount of motor torque that your heater requires, but if it can spin very freely, and doesn't use gobs of motor torque, then the Rotoverter might be a good swap for your 500 watts no load motor.

One question I have is my #10 can lids have corrigations in them (concentric ridges). If I use them, then I would need matching ridges or rings for the stationary disks?

I know Konehead of EVGRAY forum built one similarly and used 1/4 nuts each side of disks on allthread but his didn't work out too well. There have been a few others with sucess and others not. Do I need to have a machine shop for the close tolerances?

Anyway, Congrats on your progress and willingness to share.
Ken
Hello Ken
You don't need a machine shop but it really make it easier for the tight tolerances.
As far as the corrugated metal you are using, the spacers will have to match.
It would be a good way to get more surface area in a smaller core. Almost like Viktor Schauberger repulsine design. He did design a heater that was similar to the repulsine.

Thank you
Gabriel
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  #63  
Old 11-21-2012, 12:36 AM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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lol looks looks I had more time then what I was thinking...// Well I will be out of town for a few weeks.
Happy holidays everyone
Gabriel
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  #64  
Old 11-25-2012, 10:45 AM
osamaricu_te osamaricu_te is offline
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Hi slapstick and all,

I understand when you say that most all is available here and on youtube... I know cause I contacted you through youtube few months back. I didnt act on it cause of free time then, but I got to tell you.

Replicating is not the same as merely constructing. If I am to replicate your device I need sketching if I cant get them, then it can be an attempt of replica based on my understanding and we wont have 100% accurate results cause if the device dont work on my side then it will be due to some error I made, or something else... Hope you understand what I am trying to say and why sketching and details are all that important.

Thanks

P.S. even if you dont get sketches, I will go ahead with trying to replicate, I appreciate the time you took to show us how you did it.
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  #65  
Old 11-29-2012, 03:14 AM
Lester444 Lester444 is offline
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Hello Slapstick,

Thanks for posting you video link.

I was just wondering how you arrived at that pulley ratio you are using. Perhaps you can drive it faster with a different set of pulleys and get even more heat out for the same power consumed. I could not tell if you are really loading that motor to it's rated output.

Thanks again!

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  #66  
Old 11-29-2012, 08:43 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester444 View Post
Hello Slapstick,

Thanks for posting you video link.

I was just wondering how you arrived at that pulley ratio you are using. Perhaps you can drive it faster with a different set of pulleys and get even more heat out for the same power consumed. I could not tell if you are really loading that motor to it's rated output.

Thanks again!

Hello
The pully setup is to keep the high temp from getting to hot and flashing the oil. With that being said, I have ran into a issue with the oil I have been using. I will be using a new kind of oil that has a higher smoking temp. The old oil that I was using had a smoke temp of 400F.
The new oil I will be using has a smoke temp of 700F. This will allow me to get higher temps and not burn the oils.

If anyone knows of an oil that is non toxic with a higher smoke temp please feel free to share. This is still a work in progress and I am tying to push this as hard as I can to get the most out of it.

Thank you
Gabriel
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  #67  
Old 11-29-2012, 09:50 PM
Guruji Guruji is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapstick View Post
Hello
The pully setup is to keep the high temp from getting to hot and flashing the oil. With that being said, I have ran into a issue with the oil I have been using. I will be using a new kind of oil that has a higher smoking temp. The old oil that I was using had a smoke temp of 400F.
The new oil I will be using has a smoke temp of 700F. This will allow me to get higher temps and not burn the oils.

If anyone knows of an oil that is non toxic with a higher smoke temp please feel free to share. This is still a work in progress and I am tying to push this as hard as I can to get the most out of it.

Thank you
Gabriel
If you find a way to loose heat immediately from the can you don't need a high temp oil I think.
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  #68  
Old 11-30-2012, 11:55 PM
Lester444 Lester444 is offline
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Thermal Conductivity

Hello Slapstick,

If the outer body is made of stainless steel then I think you can do very well with what oil you have right now if you change the material of the body and the spacer rings to aluminum.

The choice of material makes a big difference as was shown in the example here (scroll to the bottom of the page): Thermal Conductivity of some common Materials and Gases

In essence, you gotta lose that heat to the atmosphere at the same rate as it is generated in the oil, otherwise the oil temp will just keep on rising until the entire system reaches equilibrium (heat generated = heat dissipated).

Just an input for you and I wish you all the best with this project of yours. Fantastic results!!!

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Last edited by Lester444; 12-01-2012 at 12:07 AM.
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  #69  
Old 12-01-2012, 03:03 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lester444 View Post
In essence, you gotta lose that heat to the atmosphere at the
same rate as it is generated
It is the same problem as the car engine.

You need a radiator and a circulating pump, both possibly from a car
scrapyard. With these in place, could you not then exchange the
oil for water?
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  #70  
Old 12-02-2012, 11:44 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
It is the same problem as the car engine.

You need a radiator and a circulating pump, both possibly from a car
scrapyard. With these in place, could you not then exchange the
oil for water?
Hello,

I am trying to get the core heat up as high as I can before drafting the heat off of it. I do have one with a heat exchanger and I am running into the same problem with the oils. I am going to be running wight mineral oil that has a smoke temp of 700F and the same viscosity as the previous oil. After this is all done and perfected then I will implement all aspects of the Core itself. Trying not to put the cart before the horse

Thank you,
Gabriel
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  #71  
Old 12-03-2012, 07:47 AM
lota lota is offline
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Hello,

I get this week new laser cuting disks. Then I can carry out other tests.

Greeting
Lota
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  #72  
Old 12-04-2012, 04:24 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapstick View Post
This friction heater I have built costs me around 5 cents a hour to run @ 14 cents a kilowatt.
This is tough to interpret. (You mean 14 cents per KWH, I take it).

If the device is powered by electricity (at 14 cents per KWH),
the input power should be approximately 333 watts.

333 watts could not keep your house toasty warm.
Therefore, it would seem likely that the device is overunity,
and by a considerable amount.
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Last edited by wrtner; 12-04-2012 at 04:28 PM.
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  #73  
Old 12-06-2012, 11:38 AM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
This is tough to interpret. (You mean 14 cents per KWH, I take it).

If the device is powered by electricity (at 14 cents per KWH),
the input power should be approximately 333 watts.

333 watts could not keep your house toasty warm.
Therefore, it would seem likely that the device is overunity,
and by a considerable amount.
Hello

I will be sending off one for proper lab testing to see what all is going on here.

It does keep my house very warm and for a very cheap price.
For the month of December I will be running base board style heaters and keeping track of the KWhs used in the month of January I will be running my heater and keeping track of the KWhs used. I will track the inside Temp and out side Temps on a day to day, along with the inside Humidity.
At the end of January I will be posting my findings.

Thank you
Gabriel
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  #74  
Old 12-10-2012, 03:48 AM
lostbraincell lostbraincell is offline
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Just built one from paint can. Going for improvements soon.
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  #75  
Old 12-12-2012, 06:51 AM
Blargus Blargus is offline
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Originally Posted by lostbraincell View Post
Just built one from paint can. Going for improvements soon.
Hi, can I ask briefly how you built it? Thanks,

Mike
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  #76  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:10 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Hello everyone,


It's nice to see people building the drum on drum style friction heater, but remember the better you make this the better the heat will be. Don't for get to balance the drum.

Thank you
Gabriel
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  #77  
Old 12-14-2012, 03:29 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapstick View Post
Don't for get to balance the drum.
And don't forget thqat it needs to be dynamically balanced
and not statically balanced. (Since it will go at a fair lick).

Paul-R
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  #78  
Old 12-15-2012, 07:33 PM
lostbraincell lostbraincell is offline
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Too flat 1/8: steel plates.i used 18" X 30"bottom plate welded 4 1/4 20 nuts to just fit inside paint can. short pipe cut to fit bearing.Welded in center. 5/8" steel stock for drive shaft washer welded to shaft to hold in place.1/2" from that a another washer welded to put disks on.1/4" all thread for stationary plates. hand cut with tin snipes.center disks i used 4 1/2" grinding disks i used this so i could statically balance.used 5/8" washers as spacers used 1/4" nuts and washers as spacers on sheet metal."note" assemble with out paint can to compress spring app 50 lb tension on spring.i made 6 all thread spacers with sleeves from 1/2" conduit so can would not get crushed when putting top on.ujusted by eye tolerances app 1/16" in. i placed sheet mettel, disk, sheet mettle,space,space, sheet mettle, disk, sheet mettle,space,space, sheet mettle, disk, sheet mettle.I found i only needed 4 disks 850rpm heats slowly 1200rpm 31.5 F in 10 min light wt cooking oil.
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  #79  
Old 12-16-2012, 12:29 AM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostbraincell View Post
Too flat 1/8: steel plates.i used 18" X 30"bottom plate welded 4 1/4 20 nuts to just fit inside paint can. short pipe cut to fit bearing.Welded in center. 5/8" steel stock for drive shaft washer welded to shaft to hold in place.1/2" from that a another washer welded to put disks on.1/4" all thread for stationary plates. hand cut with tin snipes.center disks i used 4 1/2" grinding disks i used this so i could statically balance.used 5/8" washers as spacers used 1/4" nuts and washers as spacers on sheet metal."note" assemble with out paint can to compress spring app 50 lb tension on spring.i made 6 all thread spacers with sleeves from 1/2" conduit so can would not get crushed when putting top on.ujusted by eye tolerances app 1/16" in. i placed sheet mettel, disk, sheet mettle,space,space, sheet mettle, disk, sheet mettle,space,space, sheet mettle, disk, sheet mettle.I found i only needed 4 disks 850rpm heats slowly 1200rpm 31.5 F in 10 min light wt cooking oil.
Dear Lost,

Are the sheet metals items stainless steel or mild steel?

I ask because Gabriel has been magnetising his sheets,
and SS will not take magnetising.
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  #80  
Old 12-16-2012, 01:45 PM
lostbraincell lostbraincell is offline
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Hi come to think of it i put a neo magnet inside bottom.cheep as possible maybe have $40 in this and spare parts.the objects I'm trying for is, 1 under 200 watts, 2 small size forced air heater. Getting +108f in 45 min. Have a very small leak at bottom need to rebuild and rethink sealing at bottom.
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  #81  
Old 12-16-2012, 03:12 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Understanding the number

Lost
If you want to get a "feel" for your efficiency at this point
take 2 -100 watt light bulbs [if that is your power consumption] and put them into your unit instead of the "device".
run your same test..... see what you get?

be aware, light bulbs are not as efficient for this purpose.

@Slapstick has an open Offer for "free" testing by a very qualified and trusted party!

Thx
Chet
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  #82  
Old 12-16-2012, 11:02 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAMSET View Post
Lost
If you want to get a "feel" for your efficiency at this point
take 2 -100 watt light bulbs [if that is your power consumption] and put them into your unit instead of the "device".
run your same test..... see what you get?

be aware, light bulbs are not as efficient for this purpose.

@Slapstick has an open Offer for "free" testing by a very qualified and trusted party!

Thx
Chet
Hello Chet,

I am working on the test model, it should be ready for shipping around mid to the end of January.

Thank you
Gabriel
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  #83  
Old 12-16-2012, 11:15 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostbraincell View Post
Too flat 1/8: steel plates.i used 18" X 30"bottom plate welded 4 1/4 20 nuts to just fit inside paint can. short pipe cut to fit bearing.Welded in center. 5/8" steel stock for drive shaft washer welded to shaft to hold in place.1/2" from that a another washer welded to put disks on.1/4" all thread for stationary plates. hand cut with tin snipes.center disks i used 4 1/2" grinding disks i used this so i could statically balance.used 5/8" washers as spacers used 1/4" nuts and washers as spacers on sheet metal."note" assemble with out paint can to compress spring app 50 lb tension on spring.i made 6 all thread spacers with sleeves from 1/2" conduit so can would not get crushed when putting top on.ujusted by eye tolerances app 1/16" in. i placed sheet mettel, disk, sheet mettle,space,space, sheet mettle, disk, sheet mettle,space,space, sheet mettle, disk, sheet mettle.I found i only needed 4 disks 850rpm heats slowly 1200rpm 31.5 F in 10 min light wt cooking oil.
Hello

Well done

If you follow my design you will get temps well over 350F.

With the oil at ambient air temp or a "cold start" Lets call it 60F at cold start, the temp will be well over 200F in about 20 to 25 min and reach max set temp in about 40 to 60 min.

Thank you
Gabriel
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  #84  
Old 12-17-2012, 01:27 AM
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theremart theremart is offline
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hmmm idea.

I have been following this thread, and had an idea.

My Vitamix blender can boil water in about 5 min turning at 32,000 RPM. It pulls about 400 watts to do so.

My idea is to forget about the disks, and simply create friction by slamming the oil into a grooved walled container like the vitamix blender has. The oil hitting the sides of the container should cause heat in the same way as the disks...

The advantage I see with this idea ( if it would work ) is that one would not need the tight tolerances with the plates.

Something to think about.
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  #85  
Old 12-17-2012, 03:59 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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My Vitamix blender can boil water in about 5 min turning at 32,000 RPM. It pulls about 400 watts to do so.
400 watt for 5 mins = 0.033 KWH

All we need now is the calorific value of water to determine the
KWH needed to raise one Litre (???) of water from about 70 deg C
to 100deg C
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  #86  
Old 12-17-2012, 11:17 PM
bolt1 bolt1 is offline
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My 400 watts camping kettle will boil a litre of water in about 5 mins too! Its pretty quite has no moving parts, no oil and cost about $9.00
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  #87  
Old 12-18-2012, 01:37 AM
RAMSET RAMSET is offline
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Bolt
How are you sir?
the line in the sand [unity] is 0.1 KWH [100 watts total]input power 1 liter water raised 120 F.[ a tuff nut to crack].

A very ruff line ,but useful for the moment.

@Gabriel
Good to hear your setting things up for the test,Nice to have a community willing to help each other!

Thx
Chet
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  #88  
Old 12-18-2012, 04:19 PM
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theremart theremart is offline
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RE: calculation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrtner View Post
400 watt for 5 mins = 0.033 KWH

All we need now is the calorific value of water to determine the
KWH needed to raise one Litre (???) of water from about 70 deg C
to 100deg C
Yep that would give a base line. Then one could experiment with different cylinder shapes, and different propellers at the base of the blender, at different speeds. It could be automated to test with Adrino to find optimum for a given motor / setup with a temp probe.
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  #89  
Old 12-24-2012, 06:36 AM
Blargus Blargus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lostbraincell View Post
Too flat 1/8: steel plates.i used 18" X 30"bottom plate welded 4 1/4 20 nuts to just fit inside paint can. short pipe cut to fit bearing.Welded in center. 5/8" steel stock for drive shaft washer welded to shaft to hold in place.1/2" from that a another washer welded to put disks on.1/4" all thread for stationary plates. hand cut with tin snipes.center disks i used 4 1/2" grinding disks i used this so i could statically balance.used 5/8" washers as spacers used 1/4" nuts and washers as spacers on sheet metal."note" assemble with out paint can to compress spring app 50 lb tension on spring.i made 6 all thread spacers with sleeves from 1/2" conduit so can would not get crushed when putting top on.ujusted by eye tolerances app 1/16" in. i placed sheet mettel, disk, sheet mettle,space,space, sheet mettle, disk, sheet mettle,space,space, sheet mettle, disk, sheet mettle.I found i only needed 4 disks 850rpm heats slowly 1200rpm 31.5 F in 10 min light wt cooking oil.
Thanks a lot I appreciate it! I was thinking smaller scale at first...finally found some compatible cans I think--diameter 1/4" apart!
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Last edited by Blargus; 12-28-2012 at 06:29 AM.
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  #90  
Old 12-28-2012, 03:26 PM
wrtner wrtner is offline
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Thanks a lot I appreciate it! I was thinking smaller scale at first...finally found some compatible cans I think--diameter 1/4" apart!
It may be difficult to keep the system together structurally. You are going
to need bearings at each end.

The material is very weak. Can you find a couple of stainless steel
vessels, maybe in one of those cheap kitchen supply shops?
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