The Real History of the Ed Gray Motor by Mark McKay
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2012, 06:57 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi folks, Hi slapstick, thanks for sharing your work.
Had to chime in, though not much to share.
Replicated those plans found on net many years back, with the large paint can as the rotor and used aluminum flashing for the outer hull, 1/8" gap or so between outside of paint can and inside of outer hull.
Used treadmill motor with small belt to rotor.
Used high temp auto sealant and high temp JB weld to glue together outer hull seem.
Only problem, was not very focused at the time, unfortunately and used water inside and did not see any heat, though bet a thin oil might have worked.
Though of course the tolerances were nothing like what you have.
Though have seen others that claim to have achieved high heat from things like a soup can inside of each other with small gap.
Makes me want to try and rebuild it with tighter tolerances, you know, elcheapo method that works fairly well.
peace love light
tyson
Hello skyWatcher

Thanks for the chime in
If you do build this heater witch I hope you do, I would be more then willing to help.
Oil does work best in this heater. Soy bean oil not motor oil, just pick it up at you local store.
Elcheapo is good but somethings you don't want to go cheap on in this build.
I have learned that the hard way and have rebuilt this dam heater a 1000000 times it feels like But I got the bugs worked out and will pass them on to anyone who want to build this.
Thank you
Gabriel
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:13 PM
lota lota is offline
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Hello,

I have 5 l oil in the stoker. Temperature the engine rises with 500 rpm by 1C / min, The motor is a little bit warm. Gabriel you have a COP 400% with 100W. I have a COP 36% with 900W

Lota

Last edited by lota : 11-14-2012 at 07:43 PM.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 11-14-2012, 09:03 PM
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SkyWatcher SkyWatcher is offline
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Hi gabriel, of course would love to build another version of this, though not much resources to do so, maybe a small coke can model is in range.
If you can offer any information on building an elcheapo coke/soup can size model, that would be much appreciated.
Here is a link to those heater plans for anyone curious about what they have to say about it.
Download Fuelless Heater.pdf from Sendspace.com - send big files the easy way
peace love light
tyson

Edit: click on download link that says: "Click here to start download from sendspace"
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2012, 07:03 PM
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rosehillworks rosehillworks is offline
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slapstick

I sent you a pm
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2012, 09:22 PM
Vincevl Vincevl is offline
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Water Heater From Friction Heater

Hey Slapstick,

Just thinking out loud that you could immerse the friction heater into a tank of water and send the hot water produced to radiators in other parts of the house or to a radiant floor heater.

Quick sketch attached.

Cheers,
Vince

Water_Heater.jpg
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2012, 10:12 PM
velacreations velacreations is offline
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Adding fins on the outside of the cylinder will help get the heat out in the room. You want it to look like a giant heat sink. More surface area = more heated air

I still wonder about the efficiency of these things vs other forms of heating.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 02:58 AM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lota View Post
Hello,

I have 5 l oil in the stoker. Temperature the engine rises with 500 rpm by 1C / min, The motor is a little bit warm. Gabriel you have a COP 400% with 100W. I have a COP 36% with 900W

Lota
Try using soy been oil, and do not let the temp go over 400F.
I am sure it just the oil you are using.
You drive discs could be a larger dia.
Keep every thing from moving but the drive discs.

Thank you
Gabriel
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 03:00 AM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincevl View Post
Hey Slapstick,

Just thinking out loud that you could immerse the friction heater into a tank of water and send the hot water produced to radiators in other parts of the house or to a radiant floor heater.

Quick sketch attached.

Cheers,
Vince

Attachment 12450
Hello Vince

Its funny you made mention of this. I am building one just to be heating my hottub
Thanks for the feed back
Gabriel
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 03:09 AM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Originally Posted by velacreations View Post
Adding fins on the outside of the cylinder will help get the heat out in the room. You want it to look like a giant heat sink. More surface area = more heated air

I still wonder about the efficiency of these things vs other forms of heating.
I have already done that, The next video I am posting will be sowing what I have done.
P.S. Stop wondering and build one I can help if you like
Thanks for the feed back
Gabriel
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 06:55 AM
lota lota is offline
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Hi,
I take rapeseed oil. I must take a new engine.
I have also built a heating after this patent.
Patent US4685443 - Hydraulic friction heat generator - Google Patents
10 disks 115 mm of diameter. The temperature rises very fast. 6-7C / min.
Thanks for the feed back

lota
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 02:34 PM
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Hi folks, Hi slapstick, would much prefer the bouncing of ideas were for all to see, unless you prefer it not to be public, which is fine also.
So does anyone think those plans posted of the paint can heater, have any workability, or is it just an inefficient design compared to using the multiple disks. thanks.
peace love light
tyson
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 07:29 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lota View Post
Hi,
I take rapeseed oil. I must take a new engine.
I have also built a heating after this patent.
Patent US4685443 - Hydraulic friction heat generator - Google Patents
10 disks 115 mm of diameter. The temperature rises very fast. 6-7C / min.
Thanks for the feed back

lota
Hello Lota
I have seen that design before. It does look a little harder to make but doable.
With the temp rise @7-8C is very nice. It look to me that with a high RPMs on the design would make a lot of cavitation, much like a water hammer. The fins would pulsate with a hit and miss, could lower the Amps and make it cheaper to run. It would be worth a try to build

Thank you
Gabriel

What is the flashing temp on rapeseed?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 07:34 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWatcher View Post
Hi folks, Hi slapstick, would much prefer the bouncing of ideas were for all to see, unless you prefer it not to be public, which is fine also.
So does anyone think those plans posted of the paint can heater, have any workability, or is it just an inefficient design compared to using the multiple disks. thanks.
peace love light
tyson
Hello Tyson
You know I haven't built a drum style heater because the shear fact is that there is so little area for friction. So you would have to make a really big drum on drum, and take up a lot of space. But like i said I have never built one like that so i really don't know. The Frenette style heater was the size of a washing machine.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 10:09 PM
velacreations velacreations is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapstick View Post
I have already done that, The next video I am posting will be sowing what I have done.
P.S. Stop wondering and build one I can help if you like
Thanks for the feed back
Gabriel
I would love to build one, but I have 2 issues.

1) no electricity, or at least, not much
2) not a lot of need for heat, I have a Rocket Mass Heater I recently built, and we live in a mild climate with a passive solar home.
Rocket Mass Heater - VelaCreations

But, the idea intrigues me. I would like to see someone actually test output heat vs input energy. That would be excellent data to have.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2012, 12:40 AM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by velacreations View Post
I would love to build one, but I have 2 issues.

1) no electricity, or at least, not much
2) not a lot of need for heat, I have a Rocket Mass Heater I recently built, and we live in a mild climate with a passive solar home.
Rocket Mass Heater - VelaCreations

But, the idea intrigues me. I would like to see someone actually test output heat vs input energy. That would be excellent data to have.
That's a really cool stove.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2012, 04:08 AM
velacreations velacreations is offline
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Thanks! It is efficient and uses sticks, so it works for my situation. I like your heater, too!
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2012, 11:25 AM
RAMSET RAMSET is online now
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Want some help?

Gabriel

Have you been able to calculate your efficiency?

I see some nice people offering up some comments [you tube]about resistive heaters.
have any of those nice folks offered to help you calculate your output?

you can get a rock solid calorimetry value for peanuts,plus it will help you
refine your model.....

Thx
Chet
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2012, 05:59 AM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Originally Posted by RAMSET View Post
Gabriel

Have you been able to calculate your efficiency?

I see some nice people offering up some comments [you tube]about resistive heaters.
have any of those nice folks offered to help you calculate your output?

you can get a rock solid calorimetry value for peanuts,plus it will help you
refine your model.....

Thx
Chet
Hello Chet

I was hoping that some people would build something like what I have so that we could compare the outputs of the BTUs and power usage.
That is why I am willing to help anyone who would like to build one.
I am working with a local HVAC company that is testing this to see what the BTUs are. I would like to have more hand and eyes on this then just mine. I am sure with some refining that this could be a very good way to heat all kinds of things.

Thank you
Gabriel
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2012, 06:01 AM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Originally Posted by velacreations View Post
Thanks! It is efficient and uses sticks, so it works for my situation. I like your heater, too!
I would LOVE to build one of them for my out side patio.
Thank you for sharing
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2012, 06:44 AM
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rosehillworks rosehillworks is offline
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slapstick
have you put a tank circuit on it yet to lower the power usage. A friend and I have done this to a 3 /4 horsepower a 1 horsepower and a 10 horsepower motor and it worked very well.

Last edited by rosehillworks : 11-18-2012 at 06:46 AM.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2012, 12:07 PM
RAMSET RAMSET is online now
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you'll Probably have this done today

Gabe
wrap that heat vessel in a manifold, styrofoam or whatever ,,make it water tight [put a plastic bag inside when your done].

or better yet if you can slip it into a tank ?

No the elec motor is not going to be a part of this heat test ,yes that is not completely fair because your motor makes heat too...

however,
you are really going to like finding out "what you got "!!

There is a line in the sand ...one side of the line people yawn and scratch their shorts.....say, yeah no big deal.

The other side of that line ................

the line for heating water ?
roughly
you take 0.1 kwh , thats exactly how it will look on your KWH meter [0.1]
one liter of water 120 degrees temp rise.
two liters 60 degrees
etc etc
thats unity [well close enough for this test]

so when your done building the tank ,measure its volume
do the math.
don't start your test until the temp of all components has stabilized.

Conversely you will have to let it "sit a bit" after the test due to your "stored heat issues".

That being said if you hit the line [temp rise] at shut down,
Do the happy dance.

one other thing that you should do is a control run, take a cheap immersion heater with your exact same water volume and run 0.1 kwh of power
check the temp.

I have simplified the process, before you do a run call me.
Chetkremens@gmail.com
PS
One thing I should mention
if you cross that line,your life is going to change [along with everyone elses.......]

Last edited by RAMSET : 11-18-2012 at 12:53 PM.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2012, 10:56 PM
kenssurplus kenssurplus is offline
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Hi Slapstick and All,

I wanted to build one of these for a number of years and have been collecting # 10 can steel lids that were cut out from the top of cans to build my version of it. I have probably 30 or so now, but have not drilled them to mount to a shaft yet.

I could use your help so that I don't have to go through the same 1,000,000 test versions and experience the same bugs you have found.

There is a drive motor energy saving circuit called the Rotoverter that does spin a 1 horsepower 3 phase motor on about 20 watts (or less depending on bearings etc...) - no load. I don't know the amount of motor torque that your heater requires, but if it can spin very freely, and doesn't use gobs of motor torque, then the Rotoverter might be a good swap for your 500 watts no load motor.

One question I have is my #10 can lids have corrigations in them (concentric ridges). If I use them, then I would need matching ridges or rings for the stationary disks?

I know Konehead of EVGRAY forum built one similarly and used 1/4 nuts each side of disks on allthread but his didn't work out too well. There have been a few others with sucess and others not. Do I need to have a machine shop for the close tolerances?

Anyway, Congrats on your progress and willingness to share.
Ken

Last edited by kenssurplus : 11-18-2012 at 11:27 PM.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:28 PM
osamaricu_te osamaricu_te is offline
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Hi slapstick,

I just LOVE making these gadgets. If its about heat and add a word "efficient" in it, I am hooked

So... I understand you want someone to build one and test for them selves. I dont post much but I do replicate things but in this case I will have a professional metal cutting store build one from scratch. Only thing I have a problem with is if it is possible to have any sort of sketches?

How you hook stationary discs and how do you hook driving discs?
How is central rotating axle secured and how it is insulated?
Are discs completely round and flat or with holes ?
diameter of central axle?

Have many more questions, if you can answer these few and maybe someone can have a go on sketches, I will build one in record time.

You see I can go with above on a hints from my head, its all clear here on first view BUT it is different when replicating, everything needs to be the same as you made it, otherwise results will be irrelevant!
Its much harder this way for production.

So once more, bear with me or if some other members could offer drawing services for all and I will most certainly make one!
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2012, 10:11 AM
ekpod ekpod is offline
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slapstick,

It is wonderful to behold the device you have shared, and I would like to propose modifications.

The amount of heat output you've got may be improved through the addition of copper heat pipes through the oil tank leading to a heat exchanger and fresh air supply.

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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2012, 08:28 PM
velacreations velacreations is offline
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slapstick, can you post a simple image (like the one above) to show us your arrangement. Doesn't have to be to scale or anything, just something to show us how you have things set up.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2012, 11:58 PM
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rosehillworks rosehillworks is offline
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More later

slapstick
Here is what I am think
using an oil pump to inject oil in to the center shaft and out into the automotive style bushing should allow the fixed disks to self center.
What do you think of this
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Heater.jpg (19.1 KB, 73 views)

Last edited by rosehillworks : 11-20-2012 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:36 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Hello everyone

I will be getting back to everyone soon. I just had a B-day and now leaving town for the holidays. If you can watch all of my youtube Videos I am sure it will answer most of the questions you have. Feel free to Email me 2 Yardwarrior@hotmail.com or ill respond in this forum after the Holidays.
YouTube channel is "oilpiggy"

Thank you
Gabriel
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:40 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
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slapstick
Here is what I am think
using an oil pump to inject oil in to the center shaft and out into the automotive style bushing should allow the fixed disks to self center.
What do you think of this
Hello bill
I think that the heat will be to high for that style of bearing but it is worth a try.
The rest of it looks just like the inside of the heater core.

Thank you
Gabriel
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:36 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Just a real fast post: Something that I have learned in the last 24 hours is that the oil I was using was failing me. After using a no contact laser, where the discs are the heat was over the smoke point and was burning the oil. Kinda scary could of been a bomb
Well the good new is I found a MUCH better oil, White Mineral Oil fits the bill just fine. It is a little more costly but what the hell its just money Well the money this has already saved me it is all worth the trials and tribulations

Thank you
Gabriel
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:48 PM
slapstick slapstick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekpod View Post
slapstick,

It is wonderful to behold the device you have shared, and I would like to propose modifications.

The amount of heat output you've got may be improved through the addition of copper heat pipes through the oil tank leading to a heat exchanger and fresh air supply.

I have always liked the Idea of the counter rotating discs. It is just trying to find a really good way to do it is all. The way you are showing it limits the contact surface adds moving parts that only work sometimes. Don't get me wrong I really like the idea. At first I was going to make something in this order but for the simplicity of the design I just kept it simple because winter was on my door step

Something I would like to build is the same design like mine but having the core its self rotating in the other direction of the drive discs. The only thing I think this will do is lower the over all RPS of the motor maybe come up to temp a little faster. I really wont know until I build one lie this.
I just like the fact that there is so few parts moving.

P.S. NO holes in the discs, it makes cavitation and that then is a very different heater you would be making. That would a water hammer style system.
Thank you
Gabriel

Last edited by slapstick : 11-20-2012 at 10:51 PM.
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