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  #2401  
Old 06-02-2017, 05:49 PM
Elcheapo Elcheapo is offline
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frequency

marathonman;

Ok and glad we can agree on some things. I'm just a little skeptical on your energy recycling system.
But I guess time will tell whether it works or not.

The reason I believe that the energy comes from the environment is that Buforn says
in comes from the atmosphere, Cater says that energy permeates the whole of the universe.
Bearden,Smith,Kapanadze,etc. all say the same thing. Plus, millions of volts of lightning
come right from the air. And that little magnet on your fridge needs energy to support itself.
Again, energy right out of the air.

So we should just leave it at that and carry on with our own theories.

One area that no one seems to want to discuss is the frequency that Figueras used.
You are the more experienced when it comes to the G system and how fast it can be turned.
So would just like your thoughts on this.
Most people would say that if the thing was rotated at 3600rpm then frequency would be 60hz.

Let's assume this was the speed he used:
He chopped dc into 8 different pulses of varying amplitude. Each pulse is one cycle, a cycle being
a low, a high and another low. So 8 of these up pulses required 1 turn of the G device.
To complete the cycle, an extra turn was required for the 8 down pulses. So 2 turns on G is required
to complete one cycle. So 3600/2 = 1800. 1800/60 = 30hz. That's a pretty low frequency for coils to work
with.
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  #2402  
Old 06-03-2017, 01:26 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elcheapo View Post
...

He chopped dc into 8 different pulses of varying amplitude. Each pulse is one cycle, a cycle being
a low, a high and another low. So 8 of these up pulses required 1 turn of the G device.
To complete the cycle, an extra turn was required for the 8 down pulses. So 2 turns on G is required
to complete one cycle. So 3600/2 = 1800. 1800/60 = 30hz. That's a pretty low frequency for coils to work with.
The way I recall the diagram of partG on the patent was that it would do both the steps-up and steps-down on a single revolution of the brush. So: A complete electrical cycle per mechanical revolution. RPM / 60 = frequency (in Hz).

bi
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  #2403  
Old 06-03-2017, 03:12 AM
Elcheapo Elcheapo is offline
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bistander;

Yes, but you are referring to the pulsing of both coils and I am using the one
coil to keep it simpler. Both coils have to be pulsed in unison.
Coil A with 8 pulses going up and coil B with 8 pulses going down.
So at this point both coils have gone through a half cycle. Then we need one
more revolution of the device to complete these 2 cycles.
Coil A with 8 pulses going down and Coil B with 8 pulses going up.
He had to use 2 revolutions for only 1 cycle because you just can't reverse
the small motor to get the other half of the cycle.
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  #2404  
Old 06-03-2017, 03:37 AM
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Guys...

Remember diagram...

The 8 comm elements above are jumped to the 8 below
..So, in HALF Revolution (180 degrees) brush does N & S sets simultaneously...say N expands and S retracts.
And then in the next HALF Cycle, the opposite takes place, meaning, N retracts and S expands.

Concluding that in a FULL Cycle (360 deg) each set does TWO Stages, one expand-one retract.


Regards to all


Ufopolitics
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  #2405  
Old 06-03-2017, 05:15 PM
marathonman marathonman is offline
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Thumbs up Correct

UFOP you would be correct as Bistander also, one complete revolution consists of a high, low and high again so 3600 rpm is the correct speed for USA and 3000 rpm for the rest.

Elcheapo;

I to believe that all our universe is permeated with energy and all living cells and atoms (matter) draw in this energy. all the atoms in a piece of iron are drawing in this energy but at random directions, it is when we align these atoms is when all the energy is flowing in the same direction that cause the effect to be noticed. almost everyone is guilty of assuming E=Mc squared means energy from matter, this would be incorrect and quite the opposite matter gets it's energy from the vacuum. there is no energy in matter only what it pulls in from outside, it permeates everything.

The figuera device in my opinion will work in the blackness of space because it to feeds off of the vacuum.

when people die their bodies have lost the ability to pull in the energy to sustain themselves like when they were young, sort a like loosing their polarity or weakening to the point of non existence, incoherency.

MM
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  #2406  
Old 06-03-2017, 05:26 PM
Elcheapo Elcheapo is offline
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correction

Ufo:

Thanks for explaining it better.
It's the 16 position switch that keeps it at 60hz.
But only if G is rotated at 3600rpm.
Even 60hz is too low for coils.
Do you think he turned his at a higher rpm?
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  #2407  
Old 06-03-2017, 05:41 PM
marathonman marathonman is offline
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Talking Frequency

It stated that Figuera ran a 20 HP motor and all his lights with his device. the lights can be ran at any frequency but the motor, well, that's a different story. Figuera would of had to rewind his motor to run at higher Frequencies then what was available in Barcelona Spain in 1908 so my personal opinion was Figuera used a standard off the shelf motor and ran his device at 50 hz.

This pic gives a good visual on what is happening during one half cycle.



MM
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  #2408  
Old 06-03-2017, 07:30 PM
Elcheapo Elcheapo is offline
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speed

marathonman;

Thanks for your input as that answers my question as to the probable speed he used for the G device. 2500 rpm.
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  #2409  
Old 06-04-2017, 01:26 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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50Hz would require 3000RPM.

bi
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  #2410  
Old 06-04-2017, 02:53 AM
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Exclamation ops

That would be correct 3000 RPM, thanks for the brain fart catch.
above post corrected.
MM
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  #2411  
Old 06-10-2017, 04:49 PM
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Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hi Jegz,

That above post has been the BEST reasoning I have read in a while...

And it goes even further...

This residual Magnetism is ENOUGH to reach its peak CHARGE-DISCHARGE RATIO, once the 60 Hertz or 3600 RPM's are obtained.

Obviously in just a few minutes of running time at FULL SPEED it will be ready to take a load from Secondaries.

Once I also thought that the Exciting Fields were ON AT ALL TIME during Rotation...but this is completely false...it is a process of Charge-Discharge separated by 90 degrees in a Single Phase Home Genny.

And this Charge-Discharge Process applies to Brushed and Brushless Home Generators.

This is VERY IMPORTANT to know...when we apply it to our Static Systems.


Regards


Ufopolitics
Im a very Big fan of your work sir. Thanks for the complement. I've had this conversation with many classically trained engineers but this realization doesn't dawn on them sadly or at the very least jolt them into applying their knowledge into taking advantage of this phenomenon.Care to elaborate what adjustments would need to be made in the case of static systems regarding charge-discharge ratios?
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  #2412  
Old 06-11-2017, 01:04 PM
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"
Once I also thought that the Exciting Fields were ON AT ALL TIME during Rotation...but this is completely false...it is a process of Charge-Discharge separated by 90 degrees in a Single Phase Home Genny."

You'll figure out the correct interpretation when you place two inducers on the outside of the induced secondary. The term "on" is the opposite of off.
Little by little kicking screaming yelling an inch at a time. Good debates and civil ,that's different. Im told I have to be more kind by people close to me so "good demo ufo. If you make the free wheeling rotor three times the size and approach the electro magnet slowly while using your finger to apply resistance to the rotor you'll be able to feel the sweet spot and notice a few more things. There is a reason it sometimes will not start to spin and when it is spinning you can move it pretty far away and it keeps spinning. The rotor has to first establish a field by mutual induction but after it has done so the physical resistance of the rotor spinning places drag on it preventing it from keeping in perfect step with the elctro magnet. Even though it is turning it lags behind. If the two were perfectly synced there would be no induced current in the rotor and it would slow down then it would be different again and start to induce making it it's own magnet again. They are separate , always kept separate just enough to be separate. One pushes the other but they dont mix. They dont even want to if the drag is always present. Everyone wants to kill lenz always killing. Always failing. Your finally on the right track so now you just have to stay on the right track and stop letting distractions from interfering. I could offer you some more experiments to try with your magnet if you want to learn for the sake of learning. If you don't I can except why you wouldn't.
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  #2413  
Old 06-12-2017, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug1 View Post
"
Once I also thought that the Exciting Fields were ON AT ALL TIME during Rotation...but this is completely false...it is a process of Charge-Discharge separated by 90 degrees in a Single Phase Home Genny."
Hello Doug,

It takes a simple experiment to know that result above...a Scope attached to DC Cap, which goes to slip ring-brushes/Exciter Field...Then when Gen is loaded (with a heavy load, of course) you no longer see a straight, flat DC line...but a wave...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug1 View Post
You'll figure out the correct interpretation when you place two inducers on the outside of the induced secondary. The term "on" is the opposite of off.
Little by little kicking screaming yelling an inch at a time. Good debates and civil ,that's different. Im told I have to be more kind by people close to me so "good demo ufo. If you make the free wheeling rotor three times the size and approach the electro magnet slowly while using your finger to apply resistance to the rotor you'll be able to feel the sweet spot and notice a few more things. There is a reason it sometimes will not start to spin and when it is spinning you can move it pretty far away and it keeps spinning. The rotor has to first establish a field by mutual induction but after it has done so the physical resistance of the rotor spinning places drag on it preventing it from keeping in perfect step with the elctro magnet. Even though it is turning it lags behind. If the two were perfectly synced there would be no induced current in the rotor and it would slow down then it would be different again and start to induce making it it's own magnet again. They are separate , always kept separate just enough to be separate. One pushes the other but they dont mix. They dont even want to if the drag is always present. Everyone wants to kill lenz always killing. Always failing. Your finally on the right track so now you just have to stay on the right track and stop letting distractions from interfering. I could offer you some more experiments to try with your magnet if you want to learn for the sake of learning. If you don't I can except why you wouldn't.
Absolutely, am all for suggestions here, basically in order to learn more, since we all "know nothing"...we are all navigating into unknown waters friend...so any help would be appreciated.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #2414  
Old 06-12-2017, 01:15 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Armature reaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post

It takes a simple experiment to know that result above...a Scope attached to DC Cap, which goes to slip ring-brushes/Exciter Field...Then when Gen is loaded (with a heavy load, of course) you no longer see a straight, flat DC line...but a wave...

...
Hi Ufo,

I believe this distortion which you observe under load is a result of armature reaction. Here is a link explaining that. I noticed several typos in the article so please double check any facts you want to take from it.

https://www.electrical4u.com/armatur...ne-alternator/

Regards,

bi
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  #2415  
Old 06-12-2017, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Ufo,

I believe this distortion which you observe under load is a result of armature reaction. Here is a link explaining that. I noticed several typos in the article so please double check any facts you want to take from it.

https://www.electrical4u.com/armatur...ne-alternator/

Regards,

bi
Yeah, it could be Bistander...thanks for the link.

I understand as the Exciter Field Induces the Generating Field (Induced) there is a "counter reaction" from the field at stator field versus exciter field.

In the article they keep "mixing" "Alternators" (which I relate to Automotive Devices) and Sync Generators...different deal there.

An Automotive Generator IS DC at ALL times at their Exciter's Coils, through slip ring brushes, (and I have NO Doubts about it)...since it does NOT have a "charging stage" at 90 to Generating Coils, where the smaller, thinner coils are wound on stator, like it does on a Single Phase Gen (no matter if brushed or brushless). This differences makes that Alternators from Vehicles work with a "Full Time" Reaction between stator armature (rotor exciter field)

Besides Stator (Generating) windings are also completely different between the two types.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #2416  
Old 06-12-2017, 01:50 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Alternator

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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
In the article they keep "mixing" "Alternators" (which I relate to Automotive Devices) and Sync Generators...different deal there.
No. Your typical automotive alternator is a 3-phase synchronous AC generator with a rectifier bridge on the armature (stator) output to convert to DC for vehicle battery charging and auxiliary circuits. AC generators, in general, are often called alternators.

bi
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  #2417  
Old 06-12-2017, 01:57 PM
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To simplify concepts...

If we have an exciter (or exciters) transferring energy by EM induction to a secondary...once we load that secondary, the Magnetic Field from Exciter is DRAWN OFF (weaken) via secondary coils to supply enough power to load.

We could also call this "drawn off" effect as a "Discharge Process"...and it takes milliseconds, (so, we normally do not pay attention to this process) almost not noticeable since we have a steady current sourcing exciters (no matter if Figuera's Fluctuations are concerned, we are looking at the Sum Current Total from both Exciters, added up)

It is then "ON THE REPETITIONS FREQUENCY" from this Processes to maintain a steady supply at load.

Resuming, as Figuera mentioned on 1908 Patent..."Magnetizing the Cores fully" is when full induction takes place...and so I am adding that when we install a load, there takes place a DEMAGNETIZATION or Discharge from Exciters to Generating Field-Load circuit.

As a result from the above, in a Figuera or any Motionless Generator, there would be a slight Increase at Source Currents, once we connect a Load to Output. (As a reaction-response from Currents trying to stabilize on whole Exciter System) And so, if the Frequency is High, or at "Operating Levels", this increase will very rapidly fall back to prior settings, and will stay there during all load operation.

If We add a second and HIGHER LOAD, this fluctuation will REPEAT...and so on.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #2418  
Old 06-12-2017, 02:10 PM
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I know Alternators are Three Phase Bistander, (I have wound-rewound many of them as repair them as well, as also used them for my experiments) as I know they have a bridge of Diodes, one for each phase to the voltage regulator to then "recharge" battery plus supply power to electrical system from vehicle.

What I am working/testing and so referring to...is a Single Phase Home Generator which HAVE these two small coils to recharge exciter fields at 90 from Generating Coils...

A Vehicle Alternator or a Three Phase Sync Machine does NOT comes with that system-circuit...so, Different Animal here friend...is all am saying.

Therefore, when it comes to analyzing this particular type, which is NOT that complicated in understanding...there are different results.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #2419  
Old 06-12-2017, 08:13 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Animals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
...
A Vehicle Alternator or a Three Phase Sync Machine does NOT comes with that system-circuit...so, Different Animal here friend...is all am saying. ...
I'd say same animal; same breed; different families. One for constant speed and one for varying speed input. So control methods differ.

But w.t.f. Carry on.

bi
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  #2420  
Old 06-15-2017, 02:19 PM
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Thumbs up Cores

"Magnetizing the Cores fully" would mean a few seconds until the Secondary core is fully polarized and operational with currant flowing.
in standard Geny it is already polarized. (residual magnetization) in the Figuera device the flashing needs to take place every time you restart it.

MM
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  #2421  
Old 06-15-2017, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
"Magnetizing the Cores fully"
Hello MM,

When I mentioned "magnetizing the core fully" I was referring when Exciter (Primary) fully magnetizes the Secondary Core, (Full Alignment) and that is when the Peak Induction takes place...it was written on Figuera 1908 Patent on the introductory part, when he was observing and analyzing a typical generator inner behavior...

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
... would mean a few seconds until the Secondary core is fully polarized and operational with currant flowing.
Correct...however, in my opinion as soon as you connect a load to that fully polarized and currents flowing secondary...then a "discharge" takes place towards load demand (discharge of Electrical Nature, of course)...so, secondary empties out (of currents therefore, magnetism) therefore it needs again another "magnetic charge" in the following half cycle of exciter re-magnetizing secondary core again...to continue load feeding process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
in standard Geny it is already polarized. (residual magnetization) in the Figuera device the flashing needs to take place every time you restart it.

MM
That's right, However, I am pretty confident we could come up with some way to be able to keep a magnetic reminiscence on the exciter cores, so it would not require an external flash, it all depends upon the type of polarity fluctuations we are doing...then reproduced by an inner center mechanical device, traveling Linearly back-forth or spinning within core...in order that even with very minimal energy, like stored in a prime cap... it would start the process...


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #2422  
Old 06-15-2017, 05:54 PM
marathonman marathonman is offline
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Exclamation Figuera

The alignment is at optimal at all times in the Figuera device unlike the standard Geny.

the secondary and the load is a closed loop system so there fore no power is dissipated or depleted and does not "empty out" as you say. this is the same for a standard geny, the output and the load is a closed system and cannot be depleted in any way, shape or form. the primaries are there to start the induction process, then used to impart motion from side to side in the secondary thus causing AC attributes.

the flashing we are describing takes place in seconds so why try to change it when it hasn't been built yet.

trying to improve a device that has never been built by the one building seams counter productive and wasteful to me but good luck all the same.

MM
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
The alignment is at optimal at all times in the Figuera device unlike the standard Geny.
Right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
the secondary and the load is a closed loop system so there fore no power is dissipated or depleted and does not "empty out" as you say. this is the same for a standard geny, the output and the load is a closed system and cannot be depleted in any way, shape or form. the primaries are there to start the induction process, then used to impart motion from side to side in the secondary thus causing AC attributes.
I know it sounds not quite right to look at Induction as that...but again, that's my opinion, and so everyone else have theirs...

When it comes the time...then I will explain the whole thing in detail...my fault, not now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
the flashing we are describing takes place in seconds so why try to change it when it hasn't been built yet.

trying to improve a device that has never been built by the one building seams counter productive and wasteful to me but good luck all the same.

MM
I had been building so many Machines over such time, with real proof on all my YT Chanel Videos...And not so much higher percentage of talk......Believe Me, I know exactly "the procedure order" MM, when it comes to "improvement time"...

You don't need to remind Me.


Ufopolitics
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Old 06-16-2017, 08:43 AM
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Talking It's All Good

There is no need to explain. you have been bitten by the bug.
MM
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Old 06-17-2017, 03:08 AM
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Talking But Then

but then again as the spoken word was expansion and contraction and our universe is nothing but expansion and contraction you could be right. high and low pressures.

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Old 07-04-2017, 09:23 AM
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Intermission. But eyes wide open observing all "serious builders".

Regards Arne
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  #2427  
Old 07-06-2017, 01:23 AM
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control circuit

To All:
Well I guess if anyone wants to experiment with this device then the first thing you'll need is a decent circuit to control the current going to the solenoid coils.

A circuit that:
1.Pulses both coils in unison.
2.One that breaks up the dc square-wave into 8 pieces or more.
3. One that reverses itself at the end of each cycle.
4.Be adjustable from 0 to 10 amps.
5.Simple mini-pot adjustments that varies the bias to the 2 power fets that drive the 2 coils.
6.Each adjustment being totally independent of all others.
7.Able to adjust the hi and lo for the 2 coils at whatever amperage level you wish.
8.Able to adjust frequency.
9.And of course, no need for power hungry resistors.

Haven't seen anyone posting a simple circuit that meets all these requirements, so I'll post you my more elaborate circuit.
There's also a scope shot of the pulses going to the 2 mosfets.
Hope this all helps somebody.

Btw: open thumbnail with "paint"
Attached Images
File Type: jpg schematic.jpg (46.9 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg step-wave.JPG (148.4 KB, 33 views)
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Old 07-06-2017, 02:23 AM
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That looks good Elcheapo. Now you have eliminated the requirement for the hard to build part G and also designed something that should do exactly what the original part G did. It will be interesting now to see how the primary and secondary coils respond to the current being controlled in the proper way. Maybe we will get some answers as to whether or not the original Figuera device was in fact able to sustain it's own operation and supply some usable power.

Have you had a chance to try it yet? I am curious as to whether or not the mosfets get warm while only be turned on part way. Most of them like to either be full on or full off. Of course if the current is kept low it may not be a problem.

Really looking forward to your further tests.

Thanks for sharing that great circuit.

By the way you might want to look into TinyCad. It is free circuit drawing software that is really easy to use.
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Old 07-06-2017, 12:31 PM
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Elcheapo

Can you post bigger picture of schematic ?
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Old 07-06-2017, 04:46 PM
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mosfet

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Originally Posted by citfta View Post
That looks good Elcheapo. Now you have eliminated the requirement for the hard to build part G and also designed something that should do exactly what the original part G did. It will be interesting now to see how the primary and secondary coils respond to the current being controlled in the proper way. Maybe we will get some answers as to whether or not the original Figuera device was in fact able to sustain it's own operation and supply some usable power.

Have you had a chance to try it yet? I am curious as to whether or not the mosfets get warm while only be turned on part way. Most of them like to either be full on or full off. Of course if the current is kept low it may not be a problem.

Really looking forward to your further tests.

Thanks for sharing that great circuit.

By the way you might want to look into TinyCad. It is free circuit drawing software that is really easy to use.
Glad to see you taking more interest in this thing.

Yes, I have the mosfets mounted on a large heat-sink and they do get warm.

When the gate voltage is past 4 volts then the mosfet becomes a linear device with an increase in amperage out to a proportional increase in voltage in.
Thanks for the "tinycad" reference.
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