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  #2191  
Old 02-16-2017, 12:12 AM
Solarlab Solarlab is offline
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F. Y. I.

Just a quick jog/comment...

- BEMF (back electromotive force) => efficiency < 1;

- Asynchronous system (eliminate BEMF) => efficiency = or > 1;

- Figuera method => mechanical losses = 0.

And, - high Q resonance, like momentum (e.g. a swing), will remain "in motion" with
very little, or no, input for a considerable time ~~ motion is "potential" turned "kinetic"...
And If - the system resonance remains undisturbed (no BEMF - load is isolated).

Two cents worth...!

((system LR delay [filter] ~ ~ somehow uses BEMF to advantage [timing] ???))

FIN
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  #2192  
Old 02-16-2017, 12:55 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Coil voltage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post

Yes, in the non-superconductoring world, the current in a coil which produces the mmf is dependent on the voltage applied to the coil per Ohm's Law. However the voltage to mmf or flux relationship is purely coencenedence. Easy proof is to maintain constant current in the coil as it heats up. You must increase applied voltage as the resistivity of the copper increases. But the field remains unchanged with this voltage change.
Bistander, the changes according to temperature in a coil related to resistance increase, therefore voltage increase are completely insignificant compared to what we are talking about here.
Hi Ufo,

No, not insignificant. Exactly what we're takling about here. I know it defies first glance logic, but all the voltage across the coil is dropped across the resistance or I*R = Coil Voltage. And I^2*R = Power dissipated in the coil resistance or converted to heat, 100%. So if all the voltage is dropped across the resistance and all the power goes into waste heat, what's left to produce the magnetic field or mmf? Only the current. And only the current matters to the magnetic field.

The paragraph above addresses DC or steady state. When the coil is first energized there is power or energy transferred from coil and its excitation source into and stored in the magnetic field. This energy is equal to one half the inductance times the current squared. Again, independent of voltage.

Regards,

bi
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  #2193  
Old 02-16-2017, 01:45 AM
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Hi Ufo,

You didn't acknowledge that your example of applying 12 volts to a coil and applying 120 volts with both times getting 2 amps was impossible so I am guessing you still don't understand.

Let me try a different way of explaining that. Let's say you have a 1/2 inch garden hose 100 feet long. Now we have a pump supplying water at 50 psi to one end of the hose. When we measure the flow of water coming out the other end we get 10 gallons per minute. Now what happens if we raise the water pressure? The flow will go up. If the size and length of the hose is not changed then any change in pressure will change the flow. And conversely if we go to a smaller size hose our pressure will have to go up to get the same 10 gallons per minute of flow.

This is exactly the same as your coil. If you want a certain amount of current to flow then you have to apply a certain amount of voltage. Changing the voltage will change the current. So you can't have the same coil and apply 12 volts and get 2 amps of current and then apply 120 volts and still get 2 amps of current. If you want a coil that takes 120 volts at 2 amps then you have to make another coil. You can't use the one that takes 12 volts at 2 amps.

And Bi is still correct. The current flowing through the turns of the coil are all that determine the field strength. But it is understood you have to apply voltage to get the current to flow. And the amount of voltage needed is again determined by the coil.

Respectfully,
Carroll
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  #2194  
Old 02-16-2017, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Ufo,

No, not insignificant. Exactly what we're takling about here. I know it defies first glance logic, but all the voltage across the coil is dropped across the resistance or I*R = Coil Voltage. And I^2*R = Power dissipated in the coil resistance or converted to heat, 100%. So if all the voltage is dropped across the resistance and all the power goes into waste heat, what's left to produce the magnetic field or mmf? Only the current. And only the current matters to the magnetic field.

The paragraph above addresses DC or steady state. When the coil is first energized there is power or energy transferred from coil and its excitation source into and stored in the magnetic field. This energy is equal to one half the inductance times the current squared. Again, independent of voltage.

Regards,

bi
Hello Bistander,


Thanks, that was a nice and quite elegant explanation

However, you mentioned above that "All voltage is dropped across the resistance" as a "One time operation" and converted into heat...is this so?...or is it a continuous renovating process...as to keep both coil terminals with the required voltage...right?

In Spanish terminology (related to EE) Voltage is referred to as "Tension" between two points on a conductor (not specifying the "wire sculpting"...if curled or squared out in a coil shape) ..as amperage/current relates to conductor thickness, gauge or cross section...simple terms...simple understanding.

Even though I clearly understood your excellent explanation...thanks

Still I find some empty and loose explanations, where so simple concepts get into confusions.

I see voltage exactly as the "driving force" of currents, and currents as the density of the electric flow...where one depends upon the other at all times no matter the functions both get "assigned".


Thanks and regards


Ufopolitics
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  #2195  
Old 02-16-2017, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Hi Ufo,

You didn't acknowledge that your example of applying 12 volts to a coil and applying 120 volts with both times getting 2 amps was impossible so I am guessing you still don't understand.

Let me try a different way of explaining that. Let's say you have a 1/2 inch garden hose 100 feet long. Now we have a pump supplying water at 50 psi to one end of the hose. When we measure the flow of water coming out the other end we get 10 gallons per minute. Now what happens if we raise the water pressure? The flow will go up. If the size and length of the hose is not changed then any change in pressure will change the flow. And conversely if we go to a smaller size hose our pressure will have to go up to get the same 10 gallons per minute of flow.

This is exactly the same as your coil. If you want a certain amount of current to flow then you have to apply a certain amount of voltage. Changing the voltage will change the current. So you can't have the same coil and apply 12 volts and get 2 amps of current and then apply 120 volts and still get 2 amps of current. If you want a coil that takes 120 volts at 2 amps then you have to make another coil. You can't use the one that takes 12 volts at 2 amps.

And Bi is still correct. The current flowing through the turns of the coil are all that determine the field strength. But it is understood you have to apply voltage to get the current to flow. And the amount of voltage needed is again determined by the coil.

Respectfully,
Carroll
Hi Citfta,

I would say same as I wrote to Bistander...excellent explanations...elegant!

But I know all of that...what I do not understand is to why leave V out of the Field Strength dependency, when we are considering wire number of turns which equals wire length...then voltage.

Bistander says "voltage drops down as becomes heat across coil resistance"...fine and dandy!...but this is not just a "crash and burn" one time operation...am I right?...it is a constant renewing process isn't it?

Anyways, I wanna thank you both for taking your time and your patience explaining to such plain ignorant and stubborn guy like me...really appreciate it.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #2196  
Old 02-16-2017, 04:16 AM
marathonman marathonman is offline
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Exclamation I Agree

12 volt 10 amp = 1.2 ohm
120 volt 100 amp = 1.2 ohm

can't argue with that.

Solarlab;

There is No Bemf in the Figuera device what so ever nor is it a resonant system as magnetic resistance is dynamic. (Dynamic Inductor in constant movement).

MM
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  #2197  
Old 02-16-2017, 04:46 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Coil power

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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post

However, you mentioned above that "All voltage is dropped across the resistance" as a "One time operation" and converted into heat...is this so?...or is it a continuous renovating process...as to keep both coil terminals with the required voltage...right?
Hi Ufo,

I did say "All voltage is dropped across the resistance". I did not say "One time operation". I do not understand that.

Voltage is an instantaneous value, as is power. In the DC static or steady state case, the voltage is the same value at each instant. Assuming the coil resistance is constant, then the power is constant or the same value at each instant. And for each and every instant in time when that voltage is present across the coil, it is dropped across the coil resistance and the resulting power is converted to waste heat in the coil resistance for the duration. If in fact the voltage and resistance were constant for that duration, then the duration time multiplied by the power yields the energy (or heat quantity) converted in the coil.

All of that has nothing to do with the magnetic field.

I hope that helps,

bi
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  #2198  
Old 02-16-2017, 06:18 PM
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can't post...
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  #2199  
Old 02-16-2017, 07:28 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
can't post...
Too bad. Looks like it works for me. I'll give it a try with this.

bi

edit: I sent a message to admin on your behalf because you may not be able to do that yourself due to the problem.
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  #2200  
Old 02-16-2017, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Too bad. Looks like it works for me. I'll give it a try with this.

bi

edit: I sent a message to admin on your behalf because you may not be able to do that yourself due to the problem.

Thanks!...seems to be my end connection.


Ufopolitics
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  #2201  
Old 02-17-2017, 02:46 AM
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posting

UFO, all working good now?
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  #2202  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarlab View Post
F. Y. I.
- Asynchronous system (eliminate BEMF) => efficiency = or > 1;
FIN
Solarlab; Hello FIN is it possible you can show some references to this? To study.
And can you give some examples of some such (real working) apparatus.

(I found this wery interesting: http://www.energeticforum.com/293040-post10820.html and EH, HZ antennas.)

Regards / Arne

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
Solarlab; There is No Bemf in the Figuera device what so ever
MM
When can we expect to see some proof of that? / Arne
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  #2203  
Old 02-17-2017, 02:47 PM
marathonman marathonman is offline
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Exclamation Device

Seaad;

Try actually studying the device and see for your self and quit relying on other people to do your work for you.
if you spent 1/4 of the time building from the time you spend on bumping your gums your device would be finished by now.

Good day.

MM
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  #2204  
Old 02-17-2017, 02:49 PM
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Seaad;

... quit relying on other people to do your work for you.

MM
The irony

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  #2205  
Old 02-17-2017, 02:56 PM
marathonman marathonman is offline
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?

THE Stupidity.
and this is coming from a person that builds Nothing, that jumps from thread to thread running his mouth.
how much do you get paid as a government misinformant DICK.
i hope it pays well as they sure are getting their monies worth.

MM
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  #2206  
Old 02-17-2017, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
Seaad;
Try actually studying the device and see for your self and quit relying on other people to do your work for you.
if you spent 1/4 of the time building from the time you spend on bumping your gums your device would be finished by now.
MM
MM; It can be good to get knowledge from different sources and angles too. I don't blindly rely on - everybody (You ). To studying the device on your own is of course mandatory to your minions as well as to myself.

About gums. I'm retired so I have lots of time. I have only reached just above or near 100% and that is not enough for me so I'm not building (BIG) now until I have The Real Figuera OU-principle in my "hand" (small).

Keep on building MM / Arne
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  #2207  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:12 PM
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UFO, all working good now?

Yes Aaron, Thanks much!!

Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #2208  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:14 PM
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Pending Post from yesterday

Hello Bistander,

Thanks again, what I meant above is that you are mentioning the voltage "crash and burn" as a one time operation, and so, the current takes over...and it was not specified that it is a constant renewable operation during the whole feeding of the coil.

Yes I agree about the voltage as an instantaneous value, which is constantly renewed according to resistance value.

However, the way you are describing a Coil Function above, relates more to the description of a Wound Resistor Operation, basically when reading your final statement in bold letters...:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
All of that has nothing to do with the magnetic field.
When we have a Wound Coil on a steel core we must comprehend (include) its magnetic field as the resulting "product"...and so, all that Voltage, Current and Resistance work, are all in function to generate a spatially projected magnetic field of a certain strength value.

I know you are looking at coil as a plain inductor on a circuit board...while I am more into viewing the Exciting System of a Generator...so, understood are different views but related to the same component...a coil on a steel core.

However, an Inductor on a board...magnetic field is completely neglected as it is not interacting with absolutely anything else there.

On a second part related to your analysis of the V, I & R on the Coil...got a question:

If we have a Coil on a Steel Core which we interrupt every certain timing to restart it again, several times during operation...I then ask you...does it takes same energy to restart coil as it took to start it from zero in the initial input of power?

IMO, it takes much less energy, since some energy-as you also wrote previously- is stored in the magnetic field...and so, the more times it is restarted the lesser energy it would consume...am I right?


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #2209  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:53 PM
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@ Aaron,

Hello Aaron,

Let me explain what was going on yesterday and still is doing it now:

On the above post addressed to Bistander I included his quoted text on the top:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Ufo,

I did say "All voltage is dropped across the resistance". I did not say "One time operation". I do not understand that.

Voltage is an instantaneous value, as is power. In the DC static or steady state case, the voltage is the same value at each instant. Assuming the coil resistance is constant, then the power is constant or the same value at each instant. And for each and every instant in time when that voltage is present across the coil, it is dropped across the coil resistance and the resulting power is converted to waste heat in the coil resistance for the duration. If in fact the voltage and resistance were constant for that duration, then the duration time multiplied by the power yields the energy (or heat quantity) converted in the coil.

All of that has nothing to do with the magnetic field.

I hope that helps,

bi



...and it kept refusing it by sending me to a blank page where the link address is below:

http://www.energeticforum.com/editpo...&postid=298834

If you call that link by putting it on navigator, it will send you also to a blank page...at least it does to me...

After I took off the quoted text it went through...like shown above.

I have no idea why is doing it...


Thanks again and regards


Ufopolitics
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Last edited by Ufopolitics; 02-17-2017 at 09:57 PM.
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  #2210  
Old 02-18-2017, 04:55 AM
Solarlab Solarlab is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seaad View Post
Solarlab; Hello FIN is it possible you can show some references to this? To study.
And can you give some examples of some such (real working) apparatus.

(I found this wery interesting: http://www.energeticforum.com/293040-post10820.html and EH, HZ antennas.)

Regards / Arne



/ Arne
==============

Asymmetric discussions: [extra energy output - general discussions]

https://translate.google.com/transla...j-texniki.136/

In particular: [good discussion on asymetric transformers]

https://translate.google.com/transla...x-sxemax.8970/https://translate.google.com/transla...x-sxemax.8970/

There are examples included within the discussions above. One well known example
asynchronous apparatus is Tesla's Bifilar winding.


Very brief overview: To date, each OU FE/CE, BTG, etc. system that has been analyzed
to any detail "appears" to contain, in one form or another, an Asynchronous aspect.
That is, the Output [the work done] is isolated, to a great extent at least, from influencing the Input
[the originating or driving source].

Also - inter-twined - these systems operate in what "appears" to be
an Open Loop scenario. Present systems are mainly Closed Loop types which do not "appear"
to be capable of operation exceeding near 94% for even the most efficient design.

And, it "appears" an "extra mechanism" is required "within" these systems in order to achieve
more output from the system than what is input to the system. Although this "extra mechanism"
is referred to under many names and theories; strong evidence suggests that in at least several
cases, the mechanism is electrodynamic (a.k.a electrostatic, etc.) and/or magnetic; and is in some
cases combined with a "high Q" resonance [oscillation, standing/traveling wave, etc.] effect.

Very brief conclusion: Simplified - isolate the input and the output - asynchronous system; combined
with possibly an electrodynamic/magnetic energy generating "extra" mechanism; and design/make
the system as efficient as practicable.

In response to your inquiry, see my previous posts in this and the OU forums and follow the included
links and references. The subject is complex and very fragmented at this moment in history. However,
once a "reasonable" conclusion to the study of these systems is achieved, the detailed analysis,
including engineering data and experimental verification, will be memorialized.

BTW; I generally do not follow the threads - I post information only that IMHO may assist in a better
understanding, thus, F.Y.I.. FIN is "end" as seen in many old (really old) foreign technical movies - it
is meant to denote a completion of the post; a "..." would indicate a follow-on or continuation at
a later date.

A few posts with information, links, etc. (??? value):

Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE

CORRECTION: A reference to Chapter 22 in the above OU post is incorrect - should be Chapter 18:
Dealing with Lenz's Law


Kapanadze Cousin - DALLY FREE ENERGYhttp://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze...497/#msg499497

http://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze...007/#msg494007http://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze...007/#msg494007


Hope this was of some value, good luck and have a great weekend!
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Last edited by Solarlab; 02-18-2017 at 06:05 AM. Reason: A reference in OU post - Chapter 22 is incorrect - fixed.
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  #2211  
Old 02-18-2017, 09:10 AM
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Solarlab; Thank you. I'm going to study your answer - input suggestions bit by bit and see if i can find some "gold nuggets". / Arne
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Old 02-18-2017, 10:00 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Reply to Ufo

Hi Ufo,

I'll insert answers and comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello Bistander,

Thanks again, what I meant above is that you are mentioning the voltage "crash and burn" as a one time operation, and so, the current takes over...and it was not specified that it is a constant renewable operation during the whole feeding of the coil.
>I don't understand: "crash and burn", "one time operation", "current takes over", and "constant renewable operation during the whole feeding of the coil" used in the context of my post to which you have replied. You sometimes have a strange way of describing things in my opinion but I am hesitant to agree with wording I find vague or confusing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Yes I agree about the voltage as an instantaneous value, which is constantly renewed according to resistance value.
>Again, "constantly renewed according to resistance value" is vague and confusing to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
However, the way you are describing a Coil Function above, relates more to the description of a Wound Resistor Operation, basically when reading your final statement in bold letters...:
Quote:
All of that has nothing to do with the magnetic field.

When we have a Wound Coil on a steel core we must comprehend (include) its magnetic field as the resulting "product"...and so, all that Voltage, Current and Resistance work, are all in function to generate a spatially projected magnetic field of a certain strength value.
>No. Again, the Voltage and Resistance have nothing to do with the magnetic field.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
I know you are looking at coil as a plain inductor on a circuit board...while I am more into viewing the Exciting System of a Generator...so, understood are different views but related to the same component...a coil on a steel core.
>It does not matter if the inductor is air core, steel core, on a circuit board or in a generator. If it has the same inductance it will behave the same in the electric circuit. Depending on the environment (materials and geometry of the magnetic circuit), the flux can be different resulting from the mmf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
However, an Inductor on a board...magnetic field is completely neglected as it is not interacting with absolutely anything else there.
>No, the flux interacts with the coil itself creating the inductance and the magnetic field from the coil will store energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
On a second part related to your analysis of the V, I & R on the Coil...got a question:

If we have a Coil on a Steel Core which we interrupt every certain timing to restart it again, several times during operation...I then ask you...does it takes same energy to restart coil as it took to start it from zero in the initial input of power?
>When you connect the coil ends to a source you apply a potential difference across the coil causing a current to start to flow. Assuming initial current was zero, then there is no magnetic field resulting from the coil at time zero. At time 0+ (an instant after the voltage is applied) the current and magnetic field start to build according to the relationship shown here:



Once the current rises to its final value the magnetic field is established and if the source voltage remains connected to the coil, the current (DC) and field remain constant, and the energy stored in the field stays there unchanged. Once the source is disconnected, the current and field start to decay (discharge) and the stored energy in the field is delivered to the circuit where it is converted to heat in resistance, used elsewhere, or dissipated as heat and light across the arcing contacts of the switch which broke the circuit.

The duration of the DC, or constant current and field can range from seconds, minutes, hours to milliseconds. But at each and every instant or moment during the "on" period, there is a unique voltage, current and power. One finds the energy for that period through integration of power over the time. If a subsequent charge cycle starts before the inductor is fully discharged, then that is accounted for by using the instantaneous current as a starting point instead of zero. So yes, it will require less than a full charge to rise to the final value (applies to current and field both). PWM does this by applying a voltage pulse train and the resulting current waveform is somewhat sawtooth. The field value follows the current waveform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
IMO, it takes much less energy, since some energy-as you also wrote previously- is stored in the magnetic field...and so, the more times it is restarted the lesser energy it would consume...am I right?
This depends on the duration of the on and off periods and the inductance.

Regards

bi
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:25 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Single piece part G

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornboy 555 View Post

Decided on internal commutation, so made up very tight fitting 30mm thick plug which will also act as bottom bearing for brush holder.

Almost ready to epoxy,and skim the bars, very gently, just got to finish all the outside jumper connections.


Hi Cornboy,

You indicate that you intend to have the brush rotate inside the hole and contact the flat conductors directly without the use of a separate commutator switching device. Two things come to mind. (1) Centrifugal force will increase the brush friction as RPM increase. You may want to calculate that in advance to see if it is a manageable figure. (2) With this method of contacting directly on the part G toroid winding, those jumpers that you are installing on the outside are not used.

Regards,

bi
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:45 AM
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Cornboy 555 Cornboy 555 is online now
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Thanks bistander, the brush will have very little start pressure, and Carbon is quite light, and i am using a rectified secondary output, so rpm probably won't be very high, just the best RPM for the best induction of secondaries.

As for connections, you may well be right, i am following the patent, and may have misinterpreted, so if someone else can shed light on this as well, that would be great.

Best Regards Cornboy.
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Old 02-19-2017, 12:29 PM
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seaad seaad is offline
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After the latest posts here and there, I'm feeling dejected and don't know if I should laugh or cry. I'm getting the same feeling as when I look at pictures of malnourished children from poor hot country's.
I have a small amount of some rudimentary knowledge about things suitable here. Not all ,far far far from , but I anyhow know MY limits.

Sorry Cornboy you need very high speed/RPM! / Arne
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Last edited by seaad; 02-19-2017 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 02-19-2017, 05:16 PM
interdesign21 interdesign21 is offline
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shorted loops ??

Hello Cornboy
I do not understand how is induction produced in the core as the bars make individual closed loops (shorted on themselves), instead of connecting each with the following one ??? . . (as the turns of wire in a solenoid.)
I may be wrong but think about it anyway.
regards
Alvaro
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Old 02-19-2017, 06:52 PM
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seaad seaad is offline
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A part-G with a central brush

A part-G with a central brush according to my pics below will work.

If you have windings like this; CW and CCW with equal turns on a toroid (pic: Variac Toroid 2 ) and loosen say, left side winding at N (top) and measure the inductance between that loose end and S you will get a Heny value X. Measure right side and you also have the same X Henrys. The funny thing is now, that if you close the loose end again to N and make a new reading you STILL HAVE THE SAME X Henrys! and half winding resistance. (provided a good core without gaps )

Closed loops =

Regards / Arne
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Variac Toroid 2.jpg (35.8 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg Variac Toroid step 2.jpg (41.7 KB, 20 views)
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Old 02-19-2017, 07:04 PM
interdesign21 interdesign21 is offline
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adjacent loop

maybe like this
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Old 02-19-2017, 09:37 PM
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seaad seaad is offline
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This can help

Cadman; If we beg nicely, is it possible for you to make a schematic of your best test N=76% version apparatus. And please show the rest, data; number of windings, Henrys, Ohms, Taps, core types etc... I hope you have an Inductance meter??

About your PC osc.-scope: I have a Velleman PC scope/combinated freq-analyser plus a Velleman PC signal/ func. generator. I bought a used cheap LAP-TOP PC as screen to them. The PC cost was only about 1/5 (125 $ ) of the two Velleman's! But I don't know anything about your financial situation. Just a tip.

Regards / Arne
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Old 02-20-2017, 12:46 AM
Cadman Cadman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seaad View Post
Cadman; If we beg nicely, is it possible for you to make a schematic of your best test N=76% version apparatus. And please show the rest, data; number of windings, Henrys, Ohms, Taps, core types etc... I hope you have an Inductance meter??

About your PC osc.-scope: I have a Velleman PC scope/combinated freq-analyser plus a Velleman PC signal/ func. generator. I bought a used cheap LAP-TOP PC as screen to them. The PC cost was only about 1/5 (125 $ ) of the two Velleman's! But I don't know anything about your financial situation. Just a tip.

Regards / Arne
Arne,
What you ask will take some time, but I will gladly do what I can.
My inductance meter is toast & I just can't afford another one yet. The hospital is trying it's best to bankrupt me right now, and doing a good job of it.

Regards,
Cadman
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