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  #1561  
Old 11-08-2016, 11:35 AM
hanon1492 hanon1492 is offline
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I wish you all good luck in your endeavour into this project. My only aim here was to promote this device and respect the guidelines described in the 1908 patent. I would really love to see this making a huge improvement in the world.

Regards and good luck,

Hanon


Dealing with electricity you must never pronounce the word " impossible "
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  #1562  
Old 11-08-2016, 12:13 PM
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seaad seaad is online now
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Hanon
"My only aim here was to promote this device" Please change the word was to is.
"Dealing with electricity you must never pronounce the word " impossible " "
I just want to make tests and see if it is something on the backside of the coin.
I think Elcheapo post #1561 Back to basics is a good new start even if I right now can't understand how + DC can achieve OU and beat the power losses. Someone show us.. / Arne

PS. About Show, see and contemplate this:
http://www.energeticforum.com/294762-post105.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/294782-post107.html
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  #1563  
Old 11-09-2016, 12:19 PM
hanon1492 hanon1492 is offline
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#MakeFigueraGreatAgain


.
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  #1564  
Old 11-09-2016, 07:40 PM
Elcheapo Elcheapo is offline
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pulsing error

Before advancing any further on this thread, we have to correct a few errors.
Look at post #972 that shows a nice up & down for the N & S coil pulses.
Unfortunatley there is no frequency given for this wave-form.
Most people will just assume that if pulsing at 60 hz then the wave-form
also must be at 60hz. Not So!
My scope doesn't assume anything and just shows the frequency as 7.5 hz
at the bottom of the screen.
I was a little confused when I first seen this but after some thought, I realized
it is because of the 2 end pulses appearing at their maximum & minimum levels.
e.g. If at amperage level 1 coil N is set to 6 amps and coil S to 3 amps, then at
amperage level 8 coil N will be at 3 amps & coil S at 6 amps.
Dividing 60 by 8 gives you 7.5hz. Not good if you're trying to get anything out of the secondary.
You can confirm this 7.5hz pulse using the paper clip trick.
If it wobbles back & forth when placed between the 2 coils, then you should know that it must be at a very low frequency.
60hz is too fast to cause any wobbling.
Would be like saying you can see your light-bulb turning off & on 60 times a second!

On the wave-form only 2 cycles are shown with the much smaller intermediate 60 hz steps.
These smaller steps have little or no effect on total coil current.

I really shouldn't say that this wave-form is in error as this is exactly what you'll get when setting the pulse
levels to the way described in the patent. But the way as described just doesn't work. I was getting the same
wave-form on my system and with zero voltage across the secondary because of the very low frequency.
So now I'll be pulsing the 2 coils in unison using just 2 amperage levels. One high and one low.
And of course it makes the control section much simpler.
Thanks Hanon for all the great work you've done on this thread.
Hope you hang in there as we all need you
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  #1565  
Old 11-10-2016, 04:09 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elcheapo View Post
Before advancing any further on this thread, we have to correct a few errors.
Look at post #972 that shows a nice up & down for the N & S coil pulses.
Unfortunatley there is no frequency given for this wave-form.
Posts got renumbered when somebody delated a bunch. Is this to which you refer?

bi

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanon1492 View Post
Ufo,

If you are to test shortly the resistors please take into account that Figuera represented a simplified commutator design to “make easy the understanding” as he literally wrote. I guess he could have used one commutator with two resistors arrays in parallel to get symmetrical signal to each set of coils. If you use just one array then the resistance in one side depends on the resistance in the remaining resistors in the other side of the brush contact. Therefore the two waves wont be symmetrical. Using two arrays in parallel you may get independent resistance in each array and therefore we will get symetrical waves. Some posts ago I linked an Excel file simulating one and two resistor arrays.

I know you love asymmetry but in this case I guess we should look for two symmetrical signals !!

BTW , 47 ohms in each step of resistors is huge. I will point more toward 4.7 ohm in each piece or even less, as low as 1 ohm, if you use the same value in all resistor pieces. And if you want to create a perfect sine wave I would use two resistors arrays with values as those included in the attached image







And below the case for just one resistor array, as drawn in the patent. Note that the higher the resistance of each piece the more asymmetrical waves will be obtained. 1 ohm is fine in each piece for a good shape with 12 V DC source and each set of coils with 7 ohms
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  #1566  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:44 AM
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seaad seaad is online now
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Rough math

First of all my math can be totally wrong! Please, give the right walues.
This is a quick estimate. The values from Elcheapo. I put the coil resistance to 1 Ohm. I didn't care about reactanse and frequency right now. The power factor can be a bit better with reactanse an frequency included in the math!!

BUT ANYHOW THE DC POWER INPUT IS 27 TIMES THE AC INPUT!! Corr: The AC input assumed to be equal with Output. No transfer loss!

Lets say that the AC/ DC power factor can be improved 10 times then the DC power in is still a major factor to solve. And on top of that WE WANT OU!! / Arne
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P factor 1.jpg (21.6 KB, 25 views)
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  #1567  
Old 11-10-2016, 05:54 PM
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Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
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About My Steak...

Seriously Guys...


Whenever you have the resistors hot and running your experiment...(you know we are all here trying to save energy on this Forum...so), if you would be so kind to put my nice Steak on top of resistors for me?

[IMG][/IMG]

But I mean, please, do not over cook it!!, I don't want it "Well Done"!!...but just "Medium Rare"...so I rather don't use Seaad Resistors Stove...as I know he can not control the Flames there...

Please, let me know whenever you are ready...


And I thank you very much -in advance- for doing my Steak...as my Part G barely gets even "warm"...can't do it there!!

Really appreciate it!!


Respectfully


Ufopoliitcs
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  #1568  
Old 11-10-2016, 06:40 PM
Elcheapo Elcheapo is offline
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correction

bistander,

"Posts got renumbered when somebody delated a bunch. Is this to which you refer?"

No, that is not the one. I am referring to the one originally posted by kehyo77
which you can can access at post 972 and a few other places.
It's the top wave-form that's supposed work, but doesn't.
Sorry, as I don't post too much I haven't yet figured out how to post images.
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  #1569  
Old 11-10-2016, 07:43 PM
Elcheapo Elcheapo is offline
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ac/dc

Seaad.

"BUT ANYHOW THE DC POWER INPUT IS 27 TIMES THE AC INPUT!!"

Should be only dc input.
On your pulse display, the 6 amp & 3 amp pulses are 180 deg. out of phase
which makes it ac. No good for C.F. device.
The coils have to be pulsed in unison which means a zero phase difference
between the high & the low.
What kind of control circuit are you using?
My primaries are wound with 34 feet of #14awg for a resistance of .45 ohms.
Still waiting for more wire to arrive to wind my second coil.
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  #1570  
Old 11-10-2016, 09:08 PM
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--> Elcheapo
The Figuera system (your test example) can be seen as a Modulated-DC-system (modulated=AC). The constantly varied DC (ACmod.-part) becomes ==> magnetic fluctuations in the primaries. The DC input power is always constant the same (40.5W, mean value) if the two waves (stairwaves) are equal and opposite in phase, 180deg, to N+S.

The fluctuations in the magnetic field is the only part ( As we, I, know about. Except some new OU-effect ) that can be transferred from primary,s N+S to secondary Y.
For simplicity we assume 100% transfer = 1.5W (the modulated part coming from the DC input power). Power factor N, is: Output power/Input power.

BUT ANYHOW THE DC POWER INPUT IS 27 TIMES THE OUTPUT!!
This is my way seeing this.

I said before that I have made and tested "The Figuera" with mechanical commutator and a G-part, a first simple test. If i remember right the output was only about 1% . / Arne
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  #1571  
Old 11-10-2016, 10:48 PM
hanon1492 hanon1492 is offline
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Elcheapo,
I can not understand how you are just getting a frequency of 7.5 Hz. The frequency deals with the inversse of the time to get a signal repeating itself. Maybe your scope is messing up with the small steps, but even in that case the frequency will much higher (8x 60 Hz) but not 60/8

The pic below is the signals I got with a central tapped transformer with DC bias. Voltages measured across a 0.47 ohm test resistor



When an input signal crosses the electromagnets it get filtered (RL filter) with filter time constant tau = L/R

If you feed a square signal as the one below you will get in the outlet the filtered signal:




Then if you use two pulsed signals with alternating (opposing) pulsed




Then the final signal will be:


A simple circuit to do (frequency regulator + 2 pulsed signals in opposition)




Quote:
So now I'll be pulsing the 2 coils in unison using just 2 amperage levels. One high and one low.
And of course it makes the control section much simpler.
Elcheapo, How are you going to design that control section?
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  #1572  
Old 11-11-2016, 02:53 AM
Elcheapo Elcheapo is offline
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To
seaad,

you are right the wave I'm referring to is nothing more than a hi-pulsed
low frequency wave being modulated by a low-pulsed 60hz wave.
And yes, the dc input power is always constant as well as the input voltage.
So no more troublesome BEMF. Only the magnetic field changes.
You'll be getting very little voltage into the secondary because of that very
low frequency.
Keep up the good experimenting.
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  #1573  
Old 11-11-2016, 04:10 AM
Elcheapo Elcheapo is offline
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control

To
Hanon,

"Elcheapo, How are you going to design that control section?"

In your post#972. The top wave-form is the culprit.
I know from your hundreds of different postings that you must know
something about graphics.
To depict a hi freq. & a low frequency on just one page.
The low freq. pulses will be much wider in graphic form than those
of the higher freq. Those narrower 60hz pulses are just modulating
the stronger low freq. wave with little or no amperage effect.
Ya, MM also said my scope was at fault and just hope you're not still subject
to all his brain-washing.
Just open your mind & your 2 eyes while studying that wave-form.
Being in ham radio and electronics for many years I am quite aware of
the filtering effects of coils.

Regarding my control section.
It's a little more complex then the simple one you've shown, but also much
more versatile in that I can set the hi & low levels to whatever I choose.
Instead of the logic ic's, my 555 will pulse a flip-flop circuit.
A Q out for coil A & a Q- for coil B. Not directly of course.
Each of these q outlets will then turn on a 2n2222 transistor which will then
turn on 2 opto-isolator switches that will feed 12 volts to 2 mini-pots that set the bias to the 2 mosfets
which controls the current to the primaries.
one mini-pot for mosfet A and another for B. So we need 4 mini-pots.

The opto switches are to islolate the 4 adjustments to be independent of each other.

Hard to explain so l`ll try and draw out a schematic for you.
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  #1574  
Old 11-11-2016, 06:10 AM
hanon1492 hanon1492 is offline
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Hi Elcheapo,

Fron your post I inderstand that you believe that in the post #972 the small steps are at a frequency of 60Hz and the main frequency from peak to peak is at 7.5 Hz. I do not if I inderstood you properly. Really in that post the frequency from peak to peak in the same signal is at 60 Hz. The other steps are just to subdivide the main frequency in each step of the original commutator. Please tell me if this is the misunderstanding

For the guys in the other thread: I am really pleased that you are advancing. It is fine to have another way to regulare the electronagnets. Hate is not my way of living, so I will always congratulate any advance dealing with this device. I only defended that the toroid is not mandatory, as supported there. There are many method to move the two fields in unison. Moving the fields in repulsion and in unison is what is really mandatory.
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  #1575  
Old 11-11-2016, 01:04 PM
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Elcheapo quote :"So no more troublesome BEMF. Only the magnetic field changes." , That is still our DREAM!,
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  #1576  
Old 11-11-2016, 03:43 PM
Elcheapo Elcheapo is offline
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Hi hanon,

quote:"Fron your post I inderstand that you believe that in the post #972 the small steps are at a frequency of 60Hz and the main frequency from peak to peak is at 7.5 Hz. I do not if I inderstood you properly. Really in that post the frequency from peak to peak in the same signal is at 60 Hz. The other steps are just to subdivide the main frequency in each step of the original commutator. Please tell me if this is the misunderstanding"

First, I don't understand where you got your definition of 'frequency' from.
My electronics dictionary simply says"the rate at which a phenomenon is repeated"

Ok, as I said in my other post, when ac is graphically depicted then:
The pulse WIDTH relates to the frequency.
A wide pulse indicating a low freq. and a narrow pulse indicating a high freq.

To make it easier for you to understand, you don't need a scope. Just get
out your small ruler and measure ACROSS the width of one of the small 60hz
pulses.
Then where the larger red & blue pulses intersect, measure ACROSS at that
point.
My measurements show one eighth of an inch for the small step pulses
and about one inch for the larger pulses.
Dividing 1 by .125 gives you 8!
So the freq. of the smaller pulses is 8 times that of the larger.(8x7.5)
And the freq. of the larger is 60/8 which is 7.5hz.

Sorry hanon, but I can't explain it any simpler than that.








I can't put it much simpler.
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  #1577  
Old 11-11-2016, 04:44 PM
hanon1492 hanon1492 is offline
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All those input signals (red signal and blue signal) should be around 50 or 60 Hz if your aim is to get AC output at a standard frequency. The small steps in the top image are just the results of the succesive contacts in the original commutator from the 1908 patent, not really needed nowadays if the driving signals are made with current methods. When one is at maximum the other is at minimum, when one is increasing the other is decreasing. This is the foundation to move the two fields.

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  #1578  
Old 11-11-2016, 09:12 PM
Elcheapo Elcheapo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanon1492 View Post
All those input signals (red signal and blue signal) should be around 50 or 60 Hz if your aim is to get AC output at a standard frequency. The small steps in the top image are just the results of the succesive contacts in the original commutator from the 1908 patent, not really needed nowadays if the driving signals are made with current methods. When one is at maximum the other is at minimum, when one is increasing the other is decreasing. This is the foundation to move the two fields.

You are right hanon. The small steps are unecessesary and just causing the problem.
We should be pulsing our coils at 2 levels instead of 8 using 50 or 60 cycle.
The wave-form would then look more like the second linear image.
We might also get somewhere with this thing.
Glad you saw the light.
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  #1579  
Old 11-13-2016, 11:33 AM
hanon1492 hanon1492 is offline
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An interesting link with many similarities with Figuera's foundation. In that link they talk abouth Bloch Wall disconnection and reconnection as the common denominator in many OU devices. We are talking here with Figuera about moving the Bloch Wall.


Bloch wall disconnect and reconnect. The final design!

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Old 11-13-2016, 11:44 AM
hanon1492 hanon1492 is offline
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Some days ago I posted a couple of question in the other thread :

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanon1492 View Post
I have two technicals questions about the toroid as an alleged energy recycling device:

1- How can you allegedly recycle the energy in the toroid and electromagnets back (--->) and forth (<---) through the same only wire without reversing the magnetic polarity in the electromagnets which are filling and emptying through just that only wire?

2- Current always flows toward lower potential sites. If energy is going back and forth between the toroid and the electromagnets then if in one way is flowing toward a lower potential site, the reverse way is flowing toward a higher potential site. All this connected always with the battery at the same time. Is the toroid increasing and decreasing in potential in each half cycle? Impossible in my view.



The toroid will work to regulate the two currents but nor it is mandatory neither it will recycle back and forth the energy. Current in this device always flow in the same direction to keep always the same polarity in the poles of the electromagnets.

Today I saw a post with kind of refering to my post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by marathonman View Post
I guess the confusion was the way i described the power recycling. it is not actually back and forth between part G and the primaries. see as the low primary's power is shoved into part G in the form of a magnetic field, it is fed every half turn. when the system needs power it takes it from the magnetic field to be circulated around to the primaries on the negative side not back and forth between them. so i see where this would bring on some confusion.
the currant stays in the same direction at all times even when feeding part G.

hope this eases some confusion.


MM
Now I just need that somebody could explain me how the magnetic field can move directly between the electromagnets and the toroid ( ---> and <--- ) without passing to the electric field.

.
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  #1581  
Old 11-13-2016, 08:09 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Current flow

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanon1492 View Post
Some days ago I posted a couple of question in the other thread :

Quote:
2- Current always flows toward lower potential sites.
.
Hi hanon,

I saw this on the other thread. I guess they don't want me to post there. So I'll give it a go here.

Your premise is flawed. Current flows in circuits or loops. So yes, current always flows towards lower potential points (called nodes) but it always flows towards the higher potential nodes, as well as always flowing away from lower potentials.

Regards,

bi
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  #1582  
Old 11-14-2016, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
... So yes, current always flows towards lower potential points (called nodes) but it always flows towards the higher potential nodes, as well as always flowing away from lower potentials. ...i
Bistander,
I find your explanation to be self contradictory. I read this as:

So yes, current always flows towards lower potential nodes but it always flows towards the higher potential nodes, as well as always flowing away from lower potentials.

Could you clarify please?

Thanks

Regards,
CM
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  #1583  
Old 11-14-2016, 05:45 PM
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By the way, those who are convinced the N S notation in the patent and patent drawings means North and South poles, just look at Hanon's picture from the 1914 patent. How can each inducer be all N or all S?

https://figueragenerator.files.wordp...pg?w=600&h=458

Regards
CM
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  #1584  
Old 11-14-2016, 06:40 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Current

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cadman View Post
Bistander,
I find your explanation to be self contradictory. I read this as:

So yes, current always flows towards lower potential nodes but it always flows towards the higher potential nodes, as well as always flowing away from lower potentials.

Could you clarify please?

Thanks

Regards,
CM
Simple. The net current into a node is zero. Therefore, current into a node (or point on a circuit) is equal to the current out. Current is a "thru" variable, which means what goes in comes out and vice verse.

Regards,

bi
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  #1585  
Old 11-22-2016, 11:46 PM
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--> Netica
Netica Quote from continuum #147:
""You may of already wound a continious coil around the toroid with the load connections at opposing sides.
Disconnect these two load connections.
Make a splite in the continious winding wherever you like, you will now have a beginning and end to the torroid winding.
Connect the load connections to each side of the this split.

Connect the wires from you commutator around the G core at intervals.
It will now work.
""



Netica, Is my G-part shown in my pic from post #1324 (here) correct and similar to your description above?? If Yes then MM have got an builder ant into His ContinuumThread! / Arne

PS Quote from continuum #148:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornboy 555 View Post
Thanks Netica, i am about to start G construction, i will take on board what you have said and try to digest, and understand it, with me a diagram is worth a million words.

Maybe if we ask nicely UFO could bless us with one of his colorful drawings.

Best Regards, Cornboy.
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  #1586  
Old 11-23-2016, 07:32 AM
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Thank you for deciphering original Figuera governor Now you can remove core and wind it on any piece of concrete toroid with resistive heating wire.
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Old 11-23-2016, 07:34 AM
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OR you can make it on insulated iron ring (solid) with insulated iron wire
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Old 11-23-2016, 08:08 AM
hanon1492 hanon1492 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netica View Post

When I first wound my toroid I did it in a different way than marathonman has specified.

I did this because looking at the patent there seemed only one way it should be done.

I have also tested your method marathonman but so far found that it does not work.
Problems in paradise....

As I said: first is to build it and later promote it, not the other way around: first promote it and later build it as done by the "leader" of the other thread. Unless he was looking for other people to do the dark homework while he was doing nothing in the last 8 months...well...insulting everyone...which he had done every day.

Which will be the next design change required in the toroid? Maybe changing that thick wire (able to withstand hundreds of amperes) for just simple household wire ? I bet for that. If so I guess Ufo won´t be very happy with the "leader" and his "ultra very very low resistance" design.

Netica seems to be an smart guy and a real builder. He read the patent to look for the original design instead of going into apocryphal sources and freestyle interpretations. Good luck Netica!!

Seaad: I think your drawings need more visibility and not just a small size sketch. You may open your attached drawings, copy the link to the JPG file and add it again to your own post with the button of the "yellow montain" located in the post editing menu bar. It will just place your link into the characters [IMG] .....[/IMG] and it will be posted as a big drawing into the post.
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Old 11-23-2016, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seaad View Post
--> Netica
Netica Quote from continuum #147:
""You may of already wound a continious coil around the toroid with the load connections at opposing sides.
Disconnect these two load connections.
Make a splite in the continious winding wherever you like, you will now have a beginning and end to the torroid winding.
Connect the load connections to each side of the this split.

Connect the wires from you commutator around the G core at intervals.
It will now work.
""

Netica, Is my G-part shown in my pic from post #1324 (here) correct and similar to your description above?? If Yes then MM have got an builder ant into His ContinuumThread! / Arne

PS Quote from continuum #148:
This drawing is correct.
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Old 11-23-2016, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netica View Post
This drawing is correct.
Thank YOU Netica! But be prepared for the STORM!

Hanon; If I stick to the thumbnails I do not need to upload the images to "somewhere" first. I am extremely lazy... AND retired.

You guys have to read my posts as carefully as you read the patents. LOL.

See also my very first post here on EF it's still valid. http://www.energeticforum.com/292732-post1103.html
/ Arne
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