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  #61  
Old 11-06-2012, 10:38 PM
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conradelektro conradelektro is offline
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@Wonju:

The SureStep (microstepping drive) http://www.automationdirect.com/stat...estepdrive.pdf is a real beauty. This is what they used when I came up with the LMD18245 in the 1990ies. Now is the time of the ICs for a fraction of the cost.

For high Wattage one still has to use these cumbersome boxes.

But yes, the SureStep will do, but is it really worth while to spend the money? I advise against becoming too serious when doing OU experiments.

I will go for the "DRV8834 plus SMD adapter board" in connection with a LaunchPad carrying a MSP430G2452 microcontroller. That stays will below 50 Euro.

To solder that together will cause some anxious fiddling, but what the hell, it is only a hobby.

Greetings, Conrad
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  #62  
Old 11-07-2012, 12:14 AM
wonju wonju is offline
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You can find in eBay Stepper motor drivers with similar capabilities for about $50. That is a good deal!

Ok. Now I want to see results! I already have the driver and I just finished dismantling the iron core of a transformer. My plan is to modify the E and I segments of the iron core to have about 3 sets of 4 electromagnets per set. That is, I will have 4 electromagnets per row - instead of the 7 shown in the patent.

Good luck to all! And, please, post any result from the testing. Thanks!

Wonju
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  #63  
Old 11-07-2012, 01:08 PM
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conradelektro conradelektro is offline
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Phase A and Phase B controlling

I looked a bit deeper into the stepper motor drivers.

In order to drive the two primary coils of the Fiquera Transformer one needs a very flexible stepper motor driver because the phases have to be driven differently to a stepper motor.

See the attached drawing which explains the difference between driving a Fiquera Transformer and a stepper motor.

What it comes down to: one has to be able to drive the two Phases at 180° (stepper motor needs 90°).

So far the only one which seems to be suitable is the DRV8834.

DRV8834PWP - DRIVER, MOTOR, DUAL H BRIDGE, 24HTSSOP
DRV8834PWP - TEXAS INSTRUMENTS - DRIVER, MOTOR, DUAL H BRIDGE, | Farnell United Kingdom

ADAPTOR, SMD, SSOP-24, 0.65MM
RE931-04 - ROTH ELEKTRONIK - ADAPTOR, SMD, SSOP-24, 0.65MM | Farnell United Kingdom

There might be many more stepper motor drivers which can be used, but look carefully. The two phases have to be driven at 180° for the Fiquera Transformer (and at 90° for a stepper motor). Many stepper motor drivers are fixedly set to a phase difference of 90°.

Driving capability of the DRV 8834: from +10.8 Volt to -10.8 Volt , at 1.5 Ampere. This may be not high enough.

But one could use several pairs of primary coils and for each pair a DRV 8834 (all DRV 8834 ICs driven in parallel with the same pins of the microprocessor).

Greetings, Conrad
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  #64  
Old 11-07-2012, 05:30 PM
wonju wonju is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradelektro View Post
There might be many more stepper motor drivers which can be used, but look carefully. The two phases have to be driven at 180° for the Fiquera Transformer (and at 90° for a stepper motor). Many stepper motor drivers are fixedly set to a phase difference of 90°.

Greetings, Conrad
Conrad,

I am under the impression that you have not read the Figuera's document completely. The document clearly states (and it is also shown on figure 21) that the two voltages applied to the primaries must be 90 degrees out of phase.

Regards,
Wonju
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  #65  
Old 11-07-2012, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by wonju View Post
Conrad,

I am under the impression that you have not read the Figuera's document completely. The document clearly states (and it is also shown on figure 21) that the two voltages applied to the primaries must be 90 degrees out of phase.

Regards,
Wonju
Could you post images of your setup made from iron transformer cores ? Did you cut E elements into C ones or did you used something else ?
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  #66  
Old 11-07-2012, 08:13 PM
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Hi, I am going to build this device.

I have found this dual H-Bridge driver:

L298N
- OPERATING SUPPLY VOLTAGE UP TO 46 V
- TOTAL DC CURRENT UP TO 4 A (2A per channel but you can parallel them for higher current output)
- LOWSATURATION VOLTAGE
- OVERTEMPERATURE PROTECTION
- LOGICAL ”0” INPUT VOLTAGE UP TO 1.5 V (HIGHNOISE IMMUNITY)

It will be easy to interface it with Arduino using a protoboard. There are Arduino shields available based in that IC as well, just Google it.

90 degrees phase (or any other angle) can be realized via software, just look for DSS (digital signal synthesis) Arduino code examples.
When I get mine working I will publish the code so stay tuned

Arduino DDS Sinewave Generator example

BTW. The core I'm using can be found in some PC power supply.
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  #67  
Old 11-07-2012, 09:17 PM
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90° or not

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Originally Posted by wonju View Post
Conrad,

I am under the impression that you have not read the Figuera's document completely. The document clearly states (and it is also shown on figure 21) that the two voltages applied to the primaries must be 90 degrees out of phase.

Regards,
Wonju
Well, one will of course try 90°, but when building such a thing I would not want to be limited to 90°. I want to do many tests with many different coils and setups. One does not really know all the details about this invention.

My suspicion is that one wants 180° in case one goes from - maxI to + maxI (instead from + minI to + maxI). I mean the full Sinus for the current variation.

But of course, I could be wrong and 90° is perfect. But when testing I want to be as versatile as possible. It usually costs the same, just more time for planning is needed, which pays of later.

One could also try to improve the "commutator + resistors", but given the fact that the DRV8834 costs less than 5 Euro, this option seems futile. I guess I have solved the soldering problem with the adapter.

I do not want to impose the DRV8834, it just is the best I found (and I have some experience with stepper motor drivers, kind of learned the hard way). These ICs reached usability only in the last 10 years, the best are very new (less than 5 years old designs). They are used for moving camera lenses, for scanners moving the beam with the sensors and for moving printer heads, also in robotic toys. The design of the better and newer ones is geared towards relatively low power applications.

But if the Fiquera thing works it will work with low power as well. 30 Watt (which can be done with the DRV8834) seems to be plenty for a test bed, you do not want to be fried or electrocuted playing with the thing. Once you have encouraging results, it will be worth wile to spend a few hundred Euro on a big non integrated step motor driver (but chances are that it will never come to this, and if it does, we will not hear any secrets from you).

Just remember, when varying currents in a nice way, there are no short cuts (the commutator and the resister bank is the short cut).

Greetings, Conrad
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  #68  
Old 11-07-2012, 09:32 PM
wonju wonju is offline
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Could you post images of your setup made from iron transformer cores ? Did you cut E elements into C ones or did you used something else ?
boguslaw,

I am doing exactly the same thing as KEhYo77. I am converting the 'Es' into 'Cs' and using the 'Is' for the secondary coils. I am also planning to do a simpler version. It is my belief that this apparatus could work with one set of air gaps only. That is, I think the system could work fine with either, the top gaps or the bottom ones. This system can be easily built by using the center column of the 'Es' for the secondary coil and the end columns for the two primaries. The 'Is' can be placed on top of the center column of the 'Es' to create the air gaps.

I cannot upload the sketch because I reached the limit.

Wonju
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  #69  
Old 11-07-2012, 10:08 PM
gyula gyula is offline
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....
I cannot upload the sketch because I reached the limit.

Wonju
Hi wonju,

You may wish to consider using ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting and embed the link into your posts, then the upload limit is solved for ever.

Gyula
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  #70  
Old 11-07-2012, 11:00 PM
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Hi KehYo

well done man go on

Hi conrad

Thank's for your infos on the drivers, very helfull and i will study and probably ask questions in due time.

Hi Wonju

Your last post is intriging , i post here a pix of how i see your proposal, am i right on the track?
i mean you wind the center pod as the secondary and the 2 outer pods as the 2 primaries (left config )
but in this case there would be a direct magnetic connection between the primaries and the secondary?

Than i am something confused now, on the question of the 90 degrees between the to primary's voltage. Because so far i get 180 degrees shift between primary voltage 1 and primary voltage 2 , and i have some problem to see how it could be an 90 degrees with the Figuera back and forth way on the resistors.
Please explanation is necessary on this point Thank's

I am trying a lot of different coils resistance and inductance, space between gap, stack of resistors, gap and direct contact difference, so as usual the practice is the truth (good or not )
So i am pleased that very soon a bunch of replications will come to share the experience.

good luck at all

Laurent
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  #71  
Old 11-07-2012, 11:16 PM
wonju wonju is offline
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@kEhYo77,

It sounds interesting. Please, let us know how it goes. I would like to see a graph of the output voltages.


@gyula,

Thanks for the info. I will try it.


Wonju
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  #72  
Old 11-07-2012, 11:46 PM
wonju wonju is offline
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Originally Posted by woopy View Post
Hi Wonju

Your last post is intriging , i post here a pix of how i see your proposal, am i right on the track?
i mean you wind the center pod as the secondary and the 2 outer pods as the 2 primaries (left config )
but in this case there would be a direct magnetic connection between the primaries and the secondary?
What I mentioned is in the wish list. Do not lose focus of our main task, which is to replicate Mr. Figuera's apparatus. Once we have the performance data of the original apparatus, then, we can compare it against any other variant. It could be the case that Mr. Figuera already tested different variants and disclosed the most efficient one in his patent. I apologize for the confusion.

Quote:
Than i am something confused now, on the question of the 90 degrees between the to primary's voltage. Because so far i get 180 degrees shift between primary voltage 1 and primary voltage 2 , and i have some problem to see how it could be an 90 degrees with the Figuera back and forth way on the resistors.
Please explanation is necessary on this point Thank's
Recall that two signals are 180 degrees out of phase when one is the reflected image of the other. This is not your case. Your experiment shows the two primary signals shifted at about 90 degrees.

Quote:
I am trying a lot of different coils resistance and inductance, space between gap, stack of resistors, gap and direct contact difference, so as usual the practice is the truth (good or not )
So i am pleased that very soon a bunch of replications will come to share the experience.
As I said above, our main task should be the replication of the original apparatus, especially the one related to the electromagnets. Mr. Figuera stated that the electromagnets can be placed very close together. you have being doing an excellent job! Just keep going in the same direction.

Thanks again! Woopy

Wonju
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  #73  
Old 11-08-2012, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by wonju View Post
The attached document explains how Mr. Figuera's "infinite energy machine" works.
It is amazing how we keep recycling old concepts over and over again. And then, we even claim that we are the inventors.
Thank you for sharing, keep up the good work!

Cheers
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  #74  
Old 11-08-2012, 02:49 AM
wonju wonju is offline
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Testing The Electromagnets

Quote:
Originally Posted by woopy View Post
Hi KehYo

well done man go on

Hi conrad

Thank's for your infos on the drivers, very helfull and i will study and probably ask questions in due time.

Hi Wonju

Your last post is intriging , i post here a pix of how i see your proposal, am i right on the track?
i mean you wind the center pod as the secondary and the 2 outer pods as the 2 primaries (left config )
but in this case there would be a direct magnetic connection between the primaries and the secondary?

Than i am something confused now, on the question of the 90 degrees between the to primary's voltage. Because so far i get 180 degrees shift between primary voltage 1 and primary voltage 2 , and i have some problem to see how it could be an 90 degrees with the Figuera back and forth way on the resistors.
Please explanation is necessary on this point Thank's

I am trying a lot of different coils resistance and inductance, space between gap, stack of resistors, gap and direct contact difference, so as usual the practice is the truth (good or not )
So i am pleased that very soon a bunch of replications will come to share the experience.

good luck at all

Laurent
Woopy,

I wanted to give a technique that might be helpful in figuring out the rating of the electromagnets.
As you may know, the reactance of inductance devices is a function of the frequency and the waveform of the voltage applied to the coil.
Based on figure 21 of the document, the voltage applied to each primary coil is a full wave rectified voltage. I suggest building the following test setup:

Make a full wave variable power supply by connecting a full wave rectifier bridge to a variable autotransformer. In this way, you can adjust the voltage and current applied to the coils of the electromagnets. You will also need a true RMS volt/amp meter, or otherwise, estimate the RMS value from the graphs shown in the scope. The voltage rating shall be determined based on the current rating of the coil wire and the magnetic field before saturation.

In addition, the inductance of the electromagnet is different when the electromagnet is in isolation and when next to magnetic materials. For this reason, when measuring the inductance of the ‘N’ electromagnet, for instance, you will need to place the iron cores of the 'y' and the 'S' electromagnets in the configuration for standard operation.

I hope the above description will help.

Thanks,

Wonju
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  #75  
Old 11-08-2012, 03:27 PM
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Wonju

I saw there is (a bit damaged) available text of Figuera patent. Am I correct ? Translation to english may help in understanding details.
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  #76  
Old 11-08-2012, 05:49 PM
wonju wonju is offline
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Wonju

I saw there is (a bit damaged) available text of Figuera patent. Am I correct ? Translation to english may help in understanding details.
Boguslaw,

Actually, there is a great deal of information on this device from the documents found in the links that you provided in another thread. The following paragraph was taken from A Letter From Nicola Tesla – Orbo.es, just before the heading - ADVANTAGES OF THE ELECTRICAL GENERATOR “FIGUERA”
“The invention is really new; very bold and above all has huge inductrial consequences did not want ask for privilege of invention to avoid running a machine based on these principles, giving this writing the sancio? n pra? practice without which seri? an inu? tiles few considerations were made.”

Based on the Spanish version found here
El enigma de Clemente Figuera y la máquina de la energĂ*a infinita - TecnologĂ*a Obsoleta
this paragraph shall read something like this:
“The invention is truly new; very bold and above all has huge technical and industrial consequences under all known concepts, I did not want to claim the invention until having a working machine based on these principles, giving this writing the support of the practice without which would be futile any considerations being made.”

Wonju
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  #77  
Old 11-08-2012, 08:48 PM
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Wonju

I only noted that I don't understand spanish , maybe others also, so translation to english would be a highly appreciated gift for us if you know somebody who can do it or at least check if A Letter From Nicola Tesla – Orbo.es is the full translation of article (it was mentioned it's somehow cut)
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  #78  
Old 11-08-2012, 09:36 PM
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I couldn't help myself... I will be testing this configuration
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File Type: jpg getting ready.jpg (205.3 KB, 59 views)
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  #79  
Old 11-08-2012, 10:08 PM
hanon1492 hanon1492 is offline
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Wonju

I saw there is (a bit damaged) available text of Figuera patent. Am I correct ? Translation to english may help in understanding details.
Hi all,
I am spanish and I have already contacted with the Spanish Patent Office Historical Archive to get a new copy of the 5 patents in case it could help. We will see...

In the original web report about Clemente Figuera in spanish it is said that the patents are damaged because of an old flooding in the archive

I hope to be able to help you as soon as possible

Regards
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:38 PM
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Hi all,
I am spanish and I have already contacted with the Spanish Patent Office Historical Archive to get a new copy of the 5 patents in case it could help. We will see...

In the original web report about Clemente Figuera in spanish it is said that the patents are damaged because of an old flooding in the archive

I hope to be able to help you as soon as possible

Regards
Hi Hanon
Thank's very much
All info will be very much welcome

Hi Wonju
thank's fo your info, will digest , need some time .

Here some of my last meditations on the subject

generador Figuera approach 2 - YouTube

good luck at all

laurent
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:13 PM
wonju wonju is offline
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Wonju

I only noted that I don't understand spanish , maybe others also, so translation to english would be a highly appreciated gift for us if you know somebody who can do it or at least check if A Letter From Nicola Tesla – Orbo.es is the full translation of article (it was mentioned it's somehow cut)
There is a person revising the Englsh version to better match the original document. I expect to have it within two weeks.

Wonju
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  #82  
Old 11-08-2012, 11:36 PM
wonju wonju is offline
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I couldn't help myself... I will be testing this configuration
Kehyo,

I see that you are making progress. When you do the test, it is important to keep the air gaps between the iron cores. THE IRON CORES MUST NOT BE IN DIRECT CONTACT! I would recommend the following procedure:

1) Verify with the scope that you have the correct primary voltage waveforms.

2) Start with a maximum separation distance for the air gaps, let's say 10mm. Mesure the primary current a no load (secondary circuit open.)

3) Connect a load to the secondary that draws a significant current, let's say 0.5A or higher. Record the primary and secondary currents and voltages.

4) Repeat the steps 2 & 3 above for smaller air gaps 8, 6, 4, 2, down to 1mm. You can use plastic spacers.

5) Create a table and graph their values. Plot the Ip=f(Is), Vp=f(Vs), Pp=f(Ps), Is=f(air gap), etc. You can use Microsoft Excel for these calculations.

The above data should provide an important insight about the model of the Figuera's generator. This table can help you to design larger units.

It will also provide information on how the air gaps affect the performance of the device. I cannot wait to see it.

Thanks,
Wonju
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  #83  
Old 11-09-2012, 12:29 AM
wonju wonju is offline
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I just finished reading the Spanish document found in this link:
El enigma de Clemente Figuera y la máquina de la energĂ*a infinita - TecnologĂ*a Obsoleta


The description of the two patents found in this link does give good deal of information for constructing and operating the generator, but it also requires a little bit of guess work. I am under the impression that the patents are incomplete because it does not give information on the relevant aspects of the invention. For example, the document does not give any reasons for the generation of the extra energy and there are no references to the effects of the Lenz's law. In addition, the requirement of the exciting primary voltages is just to be changing voltages. I think Mr. Figuera knew better and was smart enough to figure the science behind his invention.

Make no mistake; his invention consists in applying quadratic voltages to electromagnets configured as shown in the patent sketch. It should not matter how the quadratic voltages are generated.

Wonju
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  #84  
Old 11-09-2012, 01:43 AM
wonju wonju is offline
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Stepper Motor Driver Concerns

I have the following concerns with the stepper motor drivers;

the voltage rating of the coils could be more than 20V. Therefore, the voltage rating of the driver should be no less than 30V. With such a low excitation voltage, the primary coils cannot be connected in series.

In addition, I am not sure if the output voltage and current of the stepper motor drives is sinusoidal AC voltage. If the driver voltage is a sinusoidal DC voltage (DC offset), then we have a problem.

Can someone help with this issue?

Thank you,
Wonju
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  #85  
Old 11-09-2012, 02:50 AM
wonju wonju is offline
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Originally Posted by woopy View Post
Hi Hanon
Thank's very much
All info will be very much welcome

Hi Wonju
thank's fo your info, will digest , need some time .

Here some of my last meditations on the subject

generador Figuera approach 2 - YouTube

good luck at all

laurent
Woopy,

I was not able to understand the experiment. Neither I was able to understand the objective of the experiment.

The configuration of the coils shown in the video was basically of a standard transformer.

How many turns do each coil have? It seems that it may need more turns.

Why did not you try the Figuera's configuration?

Wonju
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wonju View Post
I have the following concerns with the stepper motor drivers;

the voltage rating of the coils could be more than 20V. Therefore, the voltage rating of the driver should be no less than 30V. With such a low excitation voltage, the primary coils cannot be connected in series.

In addition, I am not sure if the output voltage and current of the stepper motor drives is sinusoidal AC voltage. If the driver voltage is a sinusoidal DC voltage (DC offset), then we have a problem.

Can someone help with this issue?

Thank you,
Wonju
In case one wants higher Voltage and more Amperes, one can use the LMD18245 (+-55 Volt, 3 Ampere).

One can drive the two full bridges of the LMD18245 from +55 to -55, creating a Sinus with 110 Volt peak to peak at 3 Ampere.

One can apply a 4 bit number to its DAC (pins M1-M4), allowing 16 different current values. Or one can drive the LMD18245 with a separate DAC (which can supply more than 16 different Voltage levels) via its DAC REF pin (the pins M1 to M4 then usually stay static).

But with the LMD18245 one is stuck with a 90° phase shift (only one DAC REF).

In case one wants full phase flexibility with the DRV8834 (for +-10 Volt , 1.5 Ampere operation, 20 Volt peak to peak Sinus) one needs two external DACs and of course a microprocessor.

For the two external DACs I recommend
NEW PRODUCT – MCP4725 Breakout Board – 12-Bit DAC w/I2C Interface « adafruit industries blog

So, that is what you need:

- Microprocessor (Arduino or LaunchPad or any which one likes)

- two DACs e.g. two mcp4725 (can be avoided in case one is content with 16 or 32 current levels at locked 90° phases)

- one LMD18245 (16 current levels, phases locked at 90°) or one DRV8834 (32 current levels with phases locked at 90°, or any phases with two DACs)

In case one wants to find different stepper motor ICs or boards, they should in principle have the same flexibility than the LMD18245 or the DRV8834.

It is more difficult than the layman thinks. I am not selling the LMD18245 or DRV8834 ICs, I just tell what is needed to do a good job. As I said before, taking short cuts will cause severe limits.

In case the Fiquera transformer works, ill will also work with +- 10 Volt and 1.5 Ampere. One just has to wind the right coils (fewer turns for lower Voltage). Of course the output will be lower with less Wattage than with more Wattage put into the transformer.

The capabilities of the DRV8834 (two external DAC references, one for each phase) make it the ideal choice for complete flexibility concerning current levels and phase difference.

In case one is content with a 90° Phase shift, the LMD18245 would be a good candidate.

In case one wants a 90° phase shift, there are more boards and ICs with higher Drive Voltages and Amperages.

The number of different current levels (number of possible micro steps in stepper motor jargon) should be at least 8 (3 pins for selecting current level). But I would consider 16 levels or more.

Locking the phases at 90° makes it much less interesting, according to my humble opinion. Being stuck with only a few current levels (e.g. less than 8) limits the experiments even more.

But for everyone the path to happiness leads in a different direction. In case the budget constraints are less than 100.-- Euro, the experiment will be very limited.

Greetings, Conrad
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Last edited by conradelektro; 11-09-2012 at 12:45 PM. Reason: LMD18245 or DRV8834 or similar capabilities
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  #87  
Old 11-09-2012, 06:17 PM
woopy woopy is offline
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Hi Wonju

Do not worry, i go on the Figuera experiment.

My last video came from the fact that when i tried primaries with less Ohmage than the Micro Wave fan motor coil which has about 200 ohm DC resistance, i got no more the nice climbing and descending steps on the voltage trace, but i got a almost flat trace which ends with a sharp square with flyback spike. Almost as per a standard square wave .
Than i simply suppressed all the resistors and tried with the arduino (with your code ), and i got a kind of square wave , but centered on the middle of the cycle.And i got some interesting results. But i was very limited by the voltage of the Arduino , and when i tried to apply an amplifier with a transistor, i get a sharp square with strong Flyback spike. Seems not so good.

Today i wound the second C core (1000 turns of 0.3 mm with 14.5 Ohm DC resistance) so i have the real Figuera setup, with gap between the "y" and the 2 C core.

But with the Arduino and transistors ,i am not able to reach the nice trace, as per the Rotating commutator.

OK will go on with my rotating commutator to get the feeling. I will wait to Conrad or Keyo for electronic commutation.

Good luck at all

Laurent
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Old 11-09-2012, 08:23 PM
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conradelektro conradelektro is offline
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Circuit and first test transformer

See the attached schematics for the test system I will build.

For an initial test I will wind all tree coils (primary 0 - secondary - primary 1) on a Ferrite rod next to each other (the secondary will be sandwiched between the two primaries).

Greetings, Conrad

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  #89  
Old 11-10-2012, 02:40 AM
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StweenyA StweenyA is offline
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Exclamation Won't work.

Hi, I have seen the video, but there is something wrong.

You have a reading on the amp meter, and that reading doesn't change when you put the LED's on.

However, that doesn't mean this is free energy, all it means is that the amp meter is probably reading more than the LED current. The current doesn't drop because of the inductance, so it is kept stable.

Of course I could be wrong... (I wish)
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Old 11-10-2012, 04:12 AM
wonju wonju is offline
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@stweenyA,
You are right about that. But, if you watch Woopy's first video you will see when the secondary is shorted out and the primary current does not increase. That is something encouraging.

@All,
I wanted to stress the importance of maintaining the air gaps between the primary and secondary coils. If you refer to the figure 13 of the published document, you will understand the need to have a high reluctance medium between the primary magnetic field (Bp) and the routing of the diverted magnetic field (Bs2). Without it the primary magnetic field will cross the secondary coil completely inducing two voltages of equal magnitude and different polarities cancelling the net induced voltage (Vs).

There must be an optimum air gap distance for the Figuera's apparatus. If air gap is too small, the primary magnetic field may move across the secondary coil completely cancelling any induced voltage. On the contrary, if the air gap is too big, the primary magnetic field reaching the secondary will be weak affecting the performance of the device.

Wonju
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Last edited by wonju; 11-10-2012 at 04:38 AM.
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