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  #1  
Old 09-20-2012, 02:43 PM
Kempis Kempis is offline
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Mikhail Dmitriyev - Input 1000 W, Output near 3000 W.

Hello People,

I think Dmitriyev has achieved significant progress with its wheel. The video shows a COP near 3. The device is scalable up to a power of 10 KW.

addition4.Full load - YouTube

Regards

Kempis
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Old 09-20-2012, 08:31 PM
Shah24 Shah24 is offline
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Great work. If it works I would like 3 of these
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Old 09-20-2012, 09:54 PM
drak drak is offline
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This seems rather interesting and simple to do. Although the one way bearings would cost alot. I will stew on this one for a while.
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:08 AM
john_g john_g is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drak View Post
This seems rather interesting and simple to do. Although the one way bearings would cost alot. I will stew on this one for a while.
Hi

You can use freewheel units from bikes. You can find then for about $4 each, maybe cheaper. I brought a bulk buy a while ago.



I added a new center to them and bonded them on.

Regards

John
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:51 AM
markusbraunfe markusbraunfe is offline
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Yes this machine looks interesting and we will try to replicate his prototype 10 since it's simple.
It seems that prototype 10 did not use one way bearings, at least from what I can see by looking at the video frame by frame.
I understand that one way bearings might help since after the deflection they keep the weights deflected longer. But I think if the rpm is higher than a certain amount, even without one way bearings, the centrifugal force will keep the weights deflected for longer time since it pushes them out radially and at the 6 o'clock position it pushes them in a way so that they tend to stop to oscillate so that during the upward movement (6-12 o'clock) they stay almost still and so the torque applied to the center of the wheel is smaller.
On that prototype he claims he uses a 20W motor to deflect the weights and the wheel produces an output of 100W, so I'd call this pretty efficient.
On prototype 11 he claims 1000W in, almost 3000W out. So the smaller wheel seems more efficient and it's construction seems simpler.
Why did he change his design in your opinion?

Do you think his latest prototype 11 shown in the video uses one way bearings ? The wheel rotates fast so it's hard to see the details.
Moreover I don't exactly understand how the new wheel is constructed.
It seems like some chain and there are metallic strips attached to it and they get deflected only on one side where they pass over the small bicycle wheel.

According to the laws of Newton, the impulses on the weights issued by the motor should not create any overunity effect, and the energy of the impulse should just be transferred to the oscillating weights.
So what could lead to OU? Perhaps the centrifugal force that works against gravity and keeps the weights on the outside for longer time during the downward movement as described above?

Waiting for your opinions from you guys. thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drak View Post
This seems rather interesting and simple to do. Although the one way bearings would cost alot. I will stew on this one for a while.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:08 AM
Kempis Kempis is offline
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one way bearings

Ok,
in the picture attached we can see the particulars of the weights. As you can see there aren't one way bearings.
The picture is taken from the video "addition 2. Input with a wheel " addition 2. Input with a wheel - YouTube

Regards
Attached Images
File Type: jpg weight.jpg (115.2 KB, 208 views)
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:42 AM
Kempis Kempis is offline
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Ph. M. Kanarev

Quote:
Originally Posted by markusbraunfe View Post
Y
According to the laws of Newton, the impulses on the weights issued by the motor should not create any overunity effect, and the energy of the impulse should just be transferred to the oscillating weights.
So what could lead to OU? Perhaps the centrifugal force that works against gravity and keeps the weights on the outside for longer time during the downward movement as described above?

Waiting for your opinions from you guys. thanks!
For those who like to study in deep the laws of impulse and force i recommend this lecture of prof. Kanarev:
http://www.guns.connect.fi/innoplaza...%20Secrets.zip
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:03 AM
Kempis Kempis is offline
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Resultant moment

This this a translation (not so accurate) from russian of the old site of Dmitriyev (not active now):
Torque about the center of rotation creates a torque (thrust). It depends on the difference between the moments of the left and right, which depend on the difference between his shoulders (for the same goods). This resultant moment is the source of power of the device.
see attachment
Attached Files
File Type: pdf momento della ruota.pdf (98.6 KB, 152 views)
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:26 PM
drak drak is offline
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From the comment section of his prototype 11:
addition3. Small load - YouTube

Quote:
On the weights, are you using the one-way roller clutches on this or free roller bearings? Thanks.
purelyprimitives 3 days ago


One-way roller clutches are required in the axes of rotation of the weights.
Otherwise it does not work.
MikhailDmitriyev in reply to purelyprimitives (Show the comment) 3 days ago
yes 10 does not look like it used one way.
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:53 PM
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I've been into this one since Mikhail appeared on Main Page - PESWiki in January 2011.

Directory:Mikhail Dmitriev Gravity Wheel - PESWiki

I have had quite a lot of email correspondence with Mikhail.

He dissapeared for just over a year then resufaced with his latest build.

I still have his old website in English and Russian. I'll see if I can dig it up from my HDD.

The deflection using a bike tyre seems far superior than using neodymium magnets on cost alone.

During my experiments with the magnetic version I discovered that neodymium is only supposed to lose 1% of its power every 100 years.

This makes it a great energy source.

The torque of his devices can be assisted with magnets.

He has cleverly patented his invention as a torque amplifier.
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Old 09-21-2012, 05:01 PM
drak drak is offline
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I have a question.

He says 1000w input and 3000w output.

I can see the 3000w output, the blue generator?

Where is the 1000w input?
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:33 PM
john_g john_g is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drak View Post
I have a question.

He says 1000w input and 3000w output.

I can see the 3000w output, the blue generator?

Where is the 1000w input?
Hi Drak

I cannot see the motor either, here's my take on the chain-sets in the drawing:



Regards
John
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Old 09-21-2012, 07:50 PM
markusbraunfe markusbraunfe is offline
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I'm not 100% sure but I think Mikhail said that the generator initially works as a motors using power from the grid and once the wheel achieves a certain rpm, it becomes self sustaining and the generator switches into generator mode.
Probably to keep it turning he initially needs to put in 1000W.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drak View Post
I have a question.

He says 1000w input and 3000w output.

I can see the 3000w output, the blue generator?

Where is the 1000w input?
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:41 PM
drak drak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markusbraunfe View Post
I'm not 100% sure but I think Mikhail said that the generator initially works as a motors using power from the grid and once the wheel achieves a certain rpm, it becomes self sustaining and the generator switches into generator mode.
Probably to keep it turning he initially needs to put in 1000W.
That makes sense.
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Old 09-23-2012, 03:15 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Not enough Data.

I see 1500 watts on the meter is that the input ? Because if it is it means very
little. If the 1500 watts is the output then why show the heater power rating ?

The rating on the heater is for maximum heat setting the minimum setting will be
less, probably less than half of the rated power. Also the grinder spinning with
no load should use much less than the rated power.

What is needed is the output energy dissipated, and the input energy in real time.

There is no way I can see to know what is what in that video.

Cheers
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Old 09-23-2012, 04:24 AM
drak drak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmhand View Post
I see 1500 watts on the meter is that the input ? Because if it is it means very
little. If the 1500 watts is the output then why show the heater power rating ?

The rating on the heater is for maximum heat setting the minimum setting will be
less, probably less than half of the rated power. Also the grinder spinning with
no load should use much less than the rated power.

What is needed is the output energy dissipated, and the input energy in real time.

There is no way I can see to know what is what in that video.

Cheers
@Farmhand

I'm with you on all of those questions. I've studied this and thought about it for 4 days now and I have a guy who will go in half the cost if I decide to replicate this. I'm trying to do the math in my head. Why didn't he use a separate motor to kick the weights out, that way he could get an accurate input/output measurement. He has also been building these things for a while now, why would he keep going bigger if the concept didn't work on a small scale? or did it?

Using a little bit of energy to kick a little weight out to the side by a little bit yet it falls very far. I am trying to work out if size matters in this case. In all logic it shouldn't, right? What are your thoughts on the overall concept Farmhand? You think this device has "potential"? Do you believe in gravity wheels?
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Old 09-23-2012, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drak View Post
@Farmhand

I'm with you on all of those questions. I've studied this and thought about it for 4 days now and I have a guy who will go in half the cost if I decide to replicate this. I'm trying to do the math in my head. Why didn't he use a separate motor to kick the weights out, that way he could get an accurate input/output measurement. He has also been building these things for a while now, why would he keep going bigger if the concept didn't work on a small scale? or did it?

Using a little bit of energy to kick a little weight out to the side by a little bit yet it falls very far. I am trying to work out if size matters in this case. In all logic it shouldn't, right? What are your thoughts on the overall concept Farmhand? You think this device has "potential"? Do you believe in gravity wheels?
Hi Drak, I am willing to contribute financially to your project. I also have two new bearings with 20mm inside diameter spare.

http://budgetbearings.co.uk/shop/pro...ducts_id=21006

I do not expect anything in return.

I believe the math involves quantum physics, so good luck with that.

You can add a motor to kick the weights out and also use a magnet/s to assist. Mikhail has already done this on a previous version.

Imagine a torque wrench.

The longer the wrench the less effort you have to put on it too apply the same torque.

Therefore if a 1m diameter wheel has 100kg it will not produce as much torque as a 2m diameter wheel.


In Mikhail's website texts he talks about gravity as if it is water flowing to earth. I will dig this out when I have time.

The gravity wheel is like pair of old scales, the centre of gravity is constantly moved from the centre, so it is continually tipping.

The bike tyre is not only deflecting the weights, it is also putting them in a state of weightlessness after they have bounced off the tyre. I don't think this is going to be easy to calculate.
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Old 09-23-2012, 08:55 AM
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Another idea I have is to use a starter motor / flywheel to get the wheel in motion. Very easily available and not too expensive.

Probably a bit safer than trying to turn it by hand
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:43 AM
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I see the device operating mechanically like a microphone & speaker.

As the speaker feeds back into the microphone it repeats and gets louder.

Only difference is the centrifugal force keeps the wheel in a state of equilibrium, therefore the wheel has a maximum speed.
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Old 09-23-2012, 03:46 PM
drak drak is offline
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Thanks sounddiceuk, I think I have most of what I would need just to test this theory so I shouldn't need any financial help. Still haven't decided one way or another. It could be tested without a million weights, maybe four or so just to see if OU is there. Find the most efficient way to kick the weight out and a small generator on the axle. Measure I/O.

His site from the archives: Gravitational engine
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:08 PM
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I think you need to study Mikhail's work more closely.

The minimum frequency for self sustaining is 32 deflections. Cannot go to more per wheel as there is no space for deflecting elements to move.

Therefore to increase the amount of weights you are using 32, 64, 96, 128 and building sidewards with more wheels.

Steel / lead is expensive when you start working out the cost of 32 elements. All parts need to be quite accurate too.
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Old 09-23-2012, 05:45 PM
drak drak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundiceuk View Post
I think you need to study Mikhail's work more closely.

The minimum frequency for self sustaining is 32 deflections. Cannot go to more per wheel as there is no space for deflecting elements to move.

Therefore to increase the amount of weights you are using 32, 64, 96, 128 and building sidewards with more wheels.

Steel / lead is expensive when you start working out the cost of 32 elements. All parts need to be quite accurate too.
I hadn't had a chance to read over his website in detail yet. I did see where he says:
Quote:
To create the simplest gravitational amplifier a small number of elements (6, 8, 12) is enough, but for the transition into the oscillation mode it is necessary to increase the number of elements to 32
What does "oscillation mode" mean in this context? What does he mean by the 6, 8, 12? Are you saying that I would need 32 weights for it to even work? I will read the page more carefully.
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Old 09-23-2012, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drak View Post
@Farmhand

I'm with you on all of those questions. I've studied this and thought about it for 4 days now and I have a guy who will go in half the cost if I decide to replicate this. I'm trying to do the math in my head. Why didn't he use a separate motor to kick the weights out, that way he could get an accurate input/output measurement. He has also been building these things for a while now, why would he keep going bigger if the concept didn't work on a small scale? or did it?

Using a little bit of energy to kick a little weight out to the side by a little bit yet it falls very far. I am trying to work out if size matters in this case. In all logic it shouldn't, right? What are your thoughts on the overall concept Farmhand? You think this device has "potential"? Do you believe in gravity wheels?
Hi Drak, I don't have enough information to have an opinion other than we need more info. Some people would sell their mother for an idea they believe in.

Some theoretical questions I have got.

What is providing the energy to lift the weights ?

Do the weights fall further "vertically" than they are lifted ?

If the weights fall the same amount as they are lifted then where is the gain ?

If there is free energy then why not show it ?

Where is the free energy shown ?

Can anyone explain exactly without doubt how the wheel is powered ?

What is plugged into what, is there a schematic ?

Lots of questions, any answers ?

I try not to form opinions without sufficient information.

Wiring diagram ?

From what I can gather the motor is connected to the grid and the wheel is
supposed to spin the motor faster than the grid power does and so it starts
to generate.

Where is the evidence of this ?

Cheers
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Old 09-23-2012, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drak View Post
I hadn't had a chance to read over his website in detail yet. I did see where he says:


What does "oscillation mode" mean in this context? What does he mean by the 6, 8, 12? Are you saying that I would need 32 weights for it to even work? I will read the page more carefully.

I believe that this means that a device following the same principles using 6, 8, 12 deflecting elements would increase the amount of torque but only for a set period.

However when using 32 this period becomes infinite until bearing / component failure.


"Oscillation mode" = self sustaining
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:01 PM
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Sorry about the delayed response, I was away pimping my mother for a new gravity wheel build!!!



What is providing the energy to lift the weights ?

The impact of the deflecting element on the bike tyre filled with compressed air is deflecting the elements.

Do the weights fall further "vertically" than they are lifted ?

I think the fact is that they are in a state of weightlessness for a small timeframe is enough to move the centre of gravity from the centre of the spindle is enough to keep the momentum.

If the weights fall the same amount as they are lifted then where is the gain ?

I think the last answer fits this question too.

If there is free energy then why not show it ?

I believe Mikhail is trying his best to do that.

Explain a better way, we'll get it translated into Russian and post it on his comments.

A way that isn't going to cost him anymore money would obviously be best.


Where is the free energy shown ?

I think the last answer fits this question too.

Can anyone explain exactly without doubt how the wheel is powered ?

What is plugged into what, is there a schematic ?

It definately could do with one.

Lots of questions, any answers ?

I try not to form opinions without sufficient information.

Wiring diagram ?

It definately could do with more info for replicators.

From what I can gather the motor is connected to the grid and the wheel is
supposed to spin the motor faster than the grid power does and so it starts
to generate.

Where is the evidence of this ?

He is acting on feedback to improve his displays, with questions / constructive suggestions he will be able to do this.
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:16 PM
drak drak is offline
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This page might explain a little more.

Quote:
How can make it work a perpetual motion machine?

I. Define, for a start, with the source of motive power, input and output devices.

1. The source of the driving force is the Earth's gravitational field, which is similar to the electromotive force (EMF) can be represented as massodvizhuschuyu force (mDS).
This representation is appropriate, because the gravitational field acts on any material object, including those charged. Power of our source mDS unlimited. But to use in practice, we can only the part which will provide the working masses, creating the workflow.

2. Output for all devices of this type is the axis or shaft, mounted in the supports on which they have to rotate and which can be connected to the payload.

3. As an entry must be selected element or elements of the device, the impact of which can alter the shoulders of forces so as to form a resultant torque of the device as a whole.
In our case, these elements are the flip side spokes, pivotally attached to the fixed parts of the spokes of the shaft.


II. In addition, constructive implementation unit should allow the accumulation and preservation of the greatest possible difference between the moments of forces on the right and left sides of the wheel, that is, the presence of elements from the memory effect.

In this device, such an element is joint with emphasis. It should be noted that many inventions to date devices of this type are elements in the structure have (container with liquid accumulated and discharged from different sides of the wheel, for example).

III. Another important omission is all the developers of these devices is a small (insufficient) number of work items (goods on the spokes, filled with liquids, etc.). In this case, a small net moment of forces may be formed, but it is "eating" the friction loss. The maximum value of the resulting torque can be obtained by increasing the number of elements to achieve the value limited by the capacities of the practical implementation of the device.

Not required for this forget operate at a higher power output of a single device at any cost. Because you can get more power parallel connection of smaller devices with lower structural complexity and cost.

IV. God knows who came up with the idea that the wheel of perpetual motion (gravity) can and must rotate at high speed. But this is a misconception firmly established in the concept of how it works

So - basically can not and therefore should not.
Optimal speed mode with loads of HP - Kettlebell operation hours, barely distinguishable from the statics. The speed of rotation of the Ferris wheel is also suitable.

By the way, with a little modernization, it can be converted to a demo version of the giant HP.
By increasing the effective speed resulting torque is reduced, because the wheels on the side where the goods go down, the weight is reduced, and on the other side of the wheel where the goods go up, their weight increases (a manifestation of the inertial mass). The centrifugal forces of goods increases with increasing speed, also have a negative effect on the performance of HP, until the complete violation of his performance.

V. Taking into account the effects of the input device, the static distribution of the forces should form a resulting torque of the device at any time.

In this case, the condition k> 1 (the device over - single mode).
Otherwise, the device will not function.

So, with the requirements and conditions of the gravitational engines (the eternal, of course), we decided.
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:29 AM
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But the deflection of the weights is on the downward moving side, that would
seem to make the downward side lighter than the upward moving side.

The only explanation I can think of is that the deflection adds to the rotation of
the wheel, by flinging the weights sideways it could put rotational force on the
wheel but still have the falling force afterward.

Still I don't think any conclusions can be made by using lights and ratings on the
back of appliances.

The thing to do would be to show the killo Watt meter reading zero with
whatever load is required for it to do that.

Take load off it until the killo watt meter reads zero or very little and see what
load is running with no net input.

I still think the deflection would only be a reflection of energies. But time will
tell. I only put forward my point of view, no one should be put off doing
anything because of what I say.
My point is there is generally a lot of conjecture about how these things might
work, but never much conjecture about why they might be deceptive. And I
don't mean the person making the claim being deceptive, I mean the
"apparent" output of the machine as being deceptive to all who look at it.

Also, I can imagine there are thousands of people spending a lot of money and time
trying to make gravity wheels work well. Probably causes a lot of family
breakups too. The pressure for them to show something that at least might
look like free energy would be great (depending on the circumstances).

Truth is gravity wheels can work. So can motors based on air pressure
variations. But they are not useful. Not so far that I have seen with any
amount of proof or third party verification.

I don't understand how he could expect anyone to believe that demonstration.

Cheers
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:41 AM
drak drak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmhand View Post
But the deflection of the weights is on the downward moving side, that would
seem to make the downward side lighter than the upward moving side.
Imagine two kids on a see saw. Kid A is further from the fulcrum then kid B. Which kid will be up and which kid will be down. If the weights are further from the axle, then that side will be leveraged down. Don't forget once the weight is pushed out, it cannot come back because it is on a little one way bearing.
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Old 09-24-2012, 01:50 AM
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Yes Drak I see, I was actually addressing the weightlessness comment.

As I said time will tell and the zero reading meter would be better to see.

Cheers
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:18 AM
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I hadn't fully studied Mikhail's prototype 11.

addition 2. Input with a wheel - YouTube

3:19

As I suspected like in some of his previous prototypes, the deflecting elements have a free swing but only a certain amount of travel.

When the deflecting elements reach the 11 o'clock postion the centrifugal force swings them over into the bike tyre which make them hit a stop.

The weights then fall down and hit another stop.

You can bet Mikhail has worked out the best angles for maximum torque.
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