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  #1531  
Old 08-27-2012, 05:38 AM
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Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
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Welcome Dear Norman...

Quote:
Originally Posted by norman6538 View Post
in the ufopolitics motor drawings he shows a red magnet and a blue magnet meaning
different polarities but in the Alexander patent the magnet pole at the armature is
the same and in all of the DC permanent magnet motors I have seen the magnet
poles at the armature is the same on both magnets. What is it supposed to be?
I suspect same poles.

Brush/commutator question. The carbon brush is used to transfer the electric path
to the armature and then to the coils. The commutator segments are used to select
which coil gets the electric path and sometimes to reverse that path as in the case
of the old auto brush/commutator generator used before alternators with diodes were used.
The switching caused the AC current to stop the sine wave and flip the wires to maintain DC current.

In the Alexander motor slip rings were used for the generator out
giving AC current.
In the case of the UFO motor generator what is the commutator doing?

My greatest delima is when I ohm out a 3 pole DC motor with no brushes connected
I get the same ohms between each commutator segment. How can the brush
to commutator to coil make any commutation switching to the proper coils?

I have searched the net and found 2 pole explanations with opposite magnetic
poles but no 3 pole explanations with two like magnetic poles near the armature.

This is driving me crazy. Please enlighten me...

Norman

Hello Norman and

Now one simple question...Did you watch my Video below?:

ASYMMETRY TO ENLIGHTENMENT - YouTube

If you haven't you should, it will clear must of your doubts...in 3D Graphics...Awesome video...I made it...

Now, the color codes Blue>North and South>Red is old...and there is "almost" always a Stator configuration based on S-N..and I said "almost" because there are some models out there based on either a monopole Stator or other combinations, but basically the highest percentage (98%)..they are all N-S...

Now related to Confusion between Alexander Patent...and also the Dynamo-Motor...I made a Graphic below for you to analyze...


[IMG][/IMG]


Hope this helps you to understand this different concepts.


Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #1532  
Old 08-27-2012, 09:36 AM
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Prochiro,
Thanks for the info and the pics. I will have to make a larger core as I don't seem to have enough room to stack all the wire on the sides going up to the fins. I was able to wind one layer but no room for second layer on the way back.


@UFO,
What I asked was about "layers" not "filiar". I was using two strands to wind but like said above I don't have the room to wind the second layer coming back.
I haven't made any real tests with the seven pole. I have to order another pair of motors to modify. I did just make two end caps that house the brush assy's. that can be rotated the amount between the stator magnets.(size of the gap) also have to shim one end to eliminate a slight vibration with new end caps. I'll post a pic for you later.
Regards.
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  #1533  
Old 08-27-2012, 10:36 AM
norman6538 norman6538 is offline
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magnetic poles clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmazz850 View Post
Norman,

The magnetic poles are not the same in these dc motors.
Hope that helps.
Pmazz


Do you mean the magnets inside the razor scooter motor are
not alike and have different poles at the armature?

If so this helps a lot.
So far I have not seen a DC motor like that.

Norman
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  #1534  
Old 08-27-2012, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norman6538 View Post
Do you mean the magnets inside the razor scooter motor are
not alike and have different poles at the armature?

If so this helps a lot.
So far I have not seen a DC motor like that.

Norman
That is correct!
Regards.
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  #1535  
Old 08-27-2012, 01:08 PM
norman6538 norman6538 is offline
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I missed the great Asymmerty video - what an enlightenment!!

ufopolitics said
Now one simple question...Did you watch my Video below?:

ASYMMETRY TO ENLIGHTENMENT - YouTube

If you haven't you should, it will clear must of your doubts...

And it goes way back to Maxwell.
what a 130 year curse we have been under....

Thanks, thanks, thanks,

Norman
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  #1536  
Old 08-27-2012, 09:47 PM
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my modified 7 pole

Ufo and all,
Here is a pic of my modified 7 pole and the custom made end caps that house the brush assy's. I can rotate the brushes or the stator the amount of the gap between stator magnets, due to the bolts running through the motor.
Regards,
Pmazz.

IMAG0596.jpg picture by pmazz8501 - Photobucket
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Last edited by pmazz850; 08-27-2012 at 09:47 PM. Reason: link
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  #1537  
Old 08-28-2012, 06:13 AM
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Ufopolitics Asymmetric Motor tests

Hi Ufopolitics and All,

Here will be some preliminary tests of different setups.
Mode1 - single motor
Mode1_1 - single motor with connected otput
Mode2 - two connected motors, setup 1
Mode3 - two connected motors, setup 2

Radiant Energy & Ufopolitics Assymetric Motor Tests - YouTube
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Last edited by Gints; 08-28-2012 at 06:42 AM.
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  #1538  
Old 08-28-2012, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gints View Post
Hi Ufopolitics and All,

Here will be some preliminary tests of different setups.
Mode1 - single motor
Mode1_1 - single motor with connected otput
Mode2 - two connected motors, setup 1
Mode3 - two connected motors, setup 2

Radiant Energy & Ufopolitics Assymetric Motor Tests - YouTube

Hi Gints,
Are you bypassing the ferrite inductors on this motor?
Regards.
Pmazz.
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  #1539  
Old 08-28-2012, 11:18 AM
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Ferrite inductors

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmazz850 View Post
Hi Gints,
Are you bypassing the ferrite inductors on this motor?
Regards.
Pmazz.
Hi, Pmazz850,

Thanks for your question.
No. The ferrite inductors was not bypassed. Only after your question I noticed these ferrite inductors. The setup now I use is Mode1_1 setup and output goes to another battery to charge. When I connected the wires directly (bypassing inductors), I found that the motor temperature is not rising so high as before. Also the output from motor now is 22.1V, instead of 21V.
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Last edited by Gints; 10-16-2012 at 12:52 PM.
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  #1540  
Old 08-28-2012, 01:59 PM
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Thanks Gints,
I have the same motor and removed the inductors. It seemed to eat alot of amps so planned on rewinding. Haven't got back to that specific motor yet.
Regards.
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  #1541  
Old 08-28-2012, 05:16 PM
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Ufopolitics Asymmetric Motor Charging Battery

Hi Ufopolitics and All,

Here will be my attempts to charge 12V battery with Ufopolitics Asymmetric Motor. The battery increase the voltage during the test.

Ufopolitics Asymmetric Motor Charging Battery - YouTube
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Last edited by Gints; 08-28-2012 at 05:27 PM.
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  #1542  
Old 08-28-2012, 06:32 PM
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Beautiful Videos!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gints View Post
Hi Ufopolitics and All,

Here will be my attempts to charge 12V battery with Ufopolitics Asymmetric Motor. The battery increase the voltage during the test.

Ufopolitics Asymmetric Motor Charging Battery - YouTube

Hello Gints!

Wow!...I did not know you were such a great video "Producer-Director"!!
Nice Edit, very nice... !

Now, some "hints" to do this...

Get some Caps, AC Caps, meaning Non Polarized, let's say 10 uF/250 Volts, and connect them in Parallel to Motor output, this will "rectify" all Random High Spikes into a more steady and robust charging signal...you will see the difference instantly on your very nice Portable Scope...

Also connect a couple of small resistance ultra-fast diodes-rectifiers (NTE576/UF505) between Output of Machine to Charge Battery...that way Battery will retain charges and diodes will not allow returning to Machine Output...

If you could pulse Machine Input... ALL Results will be enhanced...plus you will be able to fine tune the Perfect Frequency-Duty Cycle that will work best...

Nice work my Friend!

Regards and


Ufopolitics
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  #1543  
Old 08-28-2012, 07:35 PM
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The Simplest PWM ever...

Hello to ALL,

I am presenting here the simplest PWM (Pulse Wave Modulator) and Motor Controller that you could build, it is based on the very cheap 555 Timer...and it could work "Safely"with up to 12 Volts...without the need of a Voltage Regulator.

[IMG][/IMG]

This is the circuit I have been using all along in My very First Thread, I just added an LM317 Voltage regulator that is posted in my other Thread, it consist of the Transistor LM317, a couple of Electrolytic Caps and a couple of resistors...and I did it in order to apply a Higher Input that ranges from 24V to 36 Volts...But the basic circuit is this one here.
Timer works in the "Astable" Mode...rendering a very clean Square Wave...
You will need this as a Controller to run from the very small Motors to the Bigger ones...so it is very practical...

It will also run the Original Symmetric Motors (Unmodified), so it is a very nice Oscillator Controller to also compare results...

The MOSFET (Not specified here) MUST be Ultra-fast Switchers, meaning, very low RdsOn (very low resistance in micro-ohms) as also OVER rated the Voltage/Amps You will be working here...and of course Heat Sinked and MUCH better if "Ventilated" with a small micro fan!!

Also it will allow by just adding "Two Components" a Non Polarized Cap and a Diode...to make a SEPIC System that will control Input and Output from Machine Gates...in certain Designs...

Here is the SAME Oscillator Circuit, expanded to More MOSFET's in Parallel for Heavier Currents handling as Heavier Machine Designs.

[IMG][/IMG]

I got this Circuit from: PROJECTS

On:A Pulse Width Modulation Control

I highly recommend this site for other great electronic free circuits as Switching Power Supplies and others...as Gary also sells parts there and the assembled circuits (for those that rather order them)...He is a very nice guy.

I am not saying the other circuits are not good, on the contrary, the LM393 is a great circuit (Mad Scientist)...as it allows regulations of Duty Cycle and Frequencies...As also the great Modular Circuit designed by My Friend John Stone...However, they could become pretty complicated and all we are trying here is to Keep It as Simple as Possible...(note I did not write KISS... )

To all the Members that have replicated my work:...I highly recommend to build this simple circuit...as it is the ONLY way you could see How My Machines Output True Radiant Energy Purple Plasma Sphere of Light...manifested at very low pulses...in the Electrodes of a 120 V Neon Bulb...


...and I know you will love HER...as SHE is the reason why we are getting all this "Phenomena" that many can not explain to be possible...then you all will understand better everything displayed here...as How I found HER originally...

I believe it is a very lovely light you could not miss to see...


Regards to all


Ufopolitics
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Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-28-2012 at 08:36 PM.
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  #1544  
Old 08-28-2012, 07:35 PM
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Thank you for so nice words about videos......I use FinalCut to edit them. FC is very simple and easy to use for video edition.

Also thanks for "hints". I will arrange these things tomorrow.

I was previously tried to use the diodes (NTE576) at the motor output, but they heated up very quickly. Maybe it was because I was not disconnected the ferrite inductors from motor?
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Last edited by Gints; 08-28-2012 at 07:48 PM.
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  #1545  
Old 08-28-2012, 07:49 PM
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My Pleasure Gints!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gints View Post
Thank you for so nice words about videos......I use FinalCut to edit them. FC is very simple and easy to use for video edition.

Also thanks for "hints". I will arrange these things tomorrow.

I was trying before to use the diodes (NTE576) at the motor output, but they heated up very quickly. Maybe it was because I was not disconnected the ferrite inductors from motor?

Hello Gints,

It is all my pleasure, they DO look VERY professional and very clean Videos!
And do not worry about "typical" You Tube critics, about text not running enough time...let them put it on "Pause" and read!...the Lazy dudes!...

Cause of NTE576 heating up, could be due to Inductors creating a wrong magnetic pattern there, as short circuiting between brushes...typically they are connected between Brushes in the Symmetrical world...to absorb/kill the "Spikes" that charged your battery...
Other Motors also have Condensers (Mica Caps) or combinations thereof...

Diodes should not get hot...warm maybe...



Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #1546  
Old 08-29-2012, 06:33 AM
adilu adilu is offline
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pwm

Tks UFO
now i can finally build my pwm
your post is very clear


Adi
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  #1547  
Old 08-29-2012, 06:55 PM
norman6538 norman6538 is offline
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motor timing/commutating

I now understand the motor timing and commutating and the 3 pole is bad but the 5 pole is about right because of the 360 degree rotation design. pole timing commutating understood - first the current goes from brush to coil to brush
from one commutator to the other motor end and are aligned so they are timmed up the same
and each coil is off and waiting till the brush arrives for its one firing in 360 degrees, so one
brush of each end is a set
for the motor and one brush of each end is a set for the generator,

but there is a timing problem with the required efficiency of the 90 degree on/attract and 90 off
to coast
because first of all the brush has width and on begins at its leading edge
and stops at its trailing edge. So if the brush width is 15 degrees that
has to be added to the 120 degrees of the commutator segment giving 135 degrees on
which is way too much...because it will attract back after dead center with power on.
5 pole is a much better because that would be 72 degrees plus 15 giving 85 degrees.

Each coil passes by a motor brush then after 180 degrees it passes a generator brush.

So I am making a lidmotor style simple 2 pole motor to get he wired up right and working.
The small rotor and wires is way too tough for my fingers to manipulate. And I do not
understand why the coils are wound in pairs stretching further than the span of 2 rotor
segments.

Lying down to rest today with my brain turned on brought me to this understanding.
Norman
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Last edited by norman6538; 08-30-2012 at 01:17 AM.
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  #1548  
Old 08-29-2012, 10:25 PM
MasterBlaster MasterBlaster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norman6538 View Post
I now understand the motor timing and commutating and the 3 pole is bad ....
Norman, did you physically build a 3 pole motor or you just are guessing?
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  #1549  
Old 08-29-2012, 10:52 PM
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Norman re: 3 pole

Norman
What masterblaster is referring to is that if you built a three pole setup you would not say or think that it is weak in any way and in fact those little dudes have way more power than they were built for. UFO has stated many times that the three pole is a sturdy creature. Try one, you will like it. It is also the easiest to wind.
Dana
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  #1550  
Old 08-30-2012, 12:06 AM
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Norman,
I can testify to the fact that the 3 pole does indeed work! And quite well!
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  #1551  
Old 08-30-2012, 01:21 AM
norman6538 norman6538 is offline
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3 pole design

Quote:
Originally Posted by prochiro View Post
Norman
What masterblaster is referring to is that if you built a three pole setup you would not say or think that it is weak in any way and in fact those little dudes have way more power than they were built for. UFO has stated many times that the three pole is a sturdy creature. Try one, you will like it. It is also the easiest to wind.
Dana
I did not make one partly because I did not understand the commutation to wire it and put
it together properly and the 18v motor has such small wires to work with so I decided to do the
very simple Lidmotor as a starter..

Norman
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  #1552  
Old 08-30-2012, 01:24 AM
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Hi Norman

UFO said 3 pole is better than a Five pole, I have already destroyed the copper brushes for excessive use. Thats the easiest configuration to do and test, I have replicated 3 volt motors and 12 volt motors both of them are 3 poles and working excellent.
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  #1553  
Old 08-30-2012, 01:25 AM
norman6538 norman6538 is offline
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3 pole design

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmazz850 View Post
Norman,
I can testify to the fact that the 3 pole does indeed work! And quite well!
The rewiring uses half the wire in a given slot for a motor and the other half for a generator
which means it will use more amps and thus have more power and also the common problem
we see as too much heat.

I'm using the same wire length in the 18v motor on my own coils so I should not have
the heating problem.

Norman
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  #1554  
Old 08-30-2012, 07:17 AM
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Rewiring

Quote:
Originally Posted by norman6538 View Post
The rewiring uses half the wire in a given slot for a motor and the other half for a generator
which means it will use more amps and thus have more power and also the common problem
we see as too much heat.

I'm using the same wire length in the 18v motor on my own coils so I should not have
the heating problem.

Norman
G'Day Norman

I Believe that one coil/strand of wire between 1 pair of brushes is divided in half still one strand half is connected to a commutator segment and wound CCW looking from the outside of the Armature and still the same strand the other half is wound CW looking from the outside of the armature still only one strand and this end of this single strand is connected to the corresponding Commutator segment of the other commutator this single wire is Used both halves as a Generator or both halves as a motor.

At any time when on one end of the armature this strand/ Commutator segment is connected to a Motor brush the corresponding commutator segment on the other end of armature to the corresponding power brush so that this one strand is energised causing half of the single strand to be a magnetic South and at the same time the other end of the single strand is a North pole when the brushes leave these commutator segments the poles are immediately reversed and therefore help to pull/push the armature.

Depending how wide the brushes are they cover more than the one commutator segment pair and therefore more than one strand is energised at any one time.
When the commutator segments come in contact with the Generator brushes the exact opposite takes place and therfore the motor is balanced magnetically and should run smooth.

So any one strand is either a generator or motor coil at any one time Not Both

This is my understanding as to what takes place If I am wrong I am sure I will be corrected.

Kindest Regards


Kogs always working
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  #1555  
Old 08-30-2012, 09:34 AM
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Antiphase PWM signals

Hi, Ufopolitics,

I have started to test your motor feeding with PWM signal. Can you please explain me the purpose and advantages of using antiphase or opposite phase signals to feed your motor?
Thank you.
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Last edited by Gints; 10-16-2012 at 12:45 PM.
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  #1556  
Old 08-30-2012, 11:42 AM
norman6538 norman6538 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankoglin View Post
G'Day Norman

I Believe that one coil/strand of wire between 1 pair of brushes is divided in half still one strand half is connected to a commutator segment and wound CCW looking from the outside of the Armature and still the same strand the other half is wound CW looking from the outside of the armature still only one strand and this end of this single strand is connected to the corresponding Commutator segment of the other commutator this single wire is Used both halves as a Generator or both halves as a motor.

At any time when on one end of the armature this strand/ Commutator segment is connected to a Motor brush the corresponding commutator segment on the other end of armature to the corresponding power brush so that this one strand is energised causing half of the single strand to be a magnetic South and at the same time the other end of the single strand is a North pole when the brushes leave these commutator segments the poles are immediately reversed and therefore help to pull/push the armature.

Depending how wide the brushes are they cover more than the one commutator segment pair and therefore more than one strand is energised at any one time.
When the commutator segments come in contact with the Generator brushes the exact opposite takes place and therfore the motor is balanced magnetically and should run smooth.

So any one strand is either a generator or motor coil at any one time Not Both

This is my understanding as to what takes place If I am wrong I am sure I will be corrected.

Kindest Regards


Kogs always working

Thank you Ian for your input. You are the first person to get your head wrapped around
the coil/commutator/btush timing stuff. I'm cogitating/thinking about the cw/ccw point. I did not
hear anyone say the coils had different winding directions. Is that true folks?

My big concern now is about proper 180 degree coil/commutator/brush electrical matched phasing. If this is not right it will degrade the potential and we have to get all the potential
there is. The 2 brush even combination with the odd coil setup is probably designed to make the motor start by never being at a magnet coil lockup point. So for now I am sticking
with two pole where its dead on.

Norman
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  #1557  
Old 08-30-2012, 12:51 PM
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Norman...Norman...

Quote:
Originally Posted by norman6538 View Post
Thank you Ian for your input. You are the first person to get your head wrapped around
the coil/commutator/btush timing stuff. I'm cogitating/thinking about the cw/ccw point. I did not
hear anyone say the coils had different winding directions. Is that true folks?

My big concern now is about proper 180 degree coil/commutator/brush electrical matched phasing. If this is not right it will degrade the potential and we have to get all the potential
there is. The 2 brush even combination with the odd coil setup is probably designed to make the motor start by never being at a magnet coil lockup point. So for now I am sticking
with two pole where its dead on.

Norman

Hello Norman,

Quote:
If this is not right it will degrade the potential and we have to get all the potential
Norman...Norman...it has been less than 24 Hours you have gotten to find about My Machines...it's been less time than that... you are "starting" to "understand" them...and yet...You are trying to focus on "possible mistakes, errors" with this Machines Design?

ONE thing, I recommend you do first is "Study Them FURTHER"... deeper than what you have been "seeing" so far...which to me, the creator...is not enough...You are still not understanding their real behavior-performance...

I honestly consider your "late approaches" a bit daring, ranting...criticizing what you have absolutely NO IDEA CONCLUDED YET...Or very INCOMPLETE.

My "counseling" is that you "rewind" your tape...and go back and re-read everything again, and again...before coming to any wrong conclusions that could get me upset...please.

I have been "nice to you" so far...don't "push your luck".

Appreciate that.


Thanks


Ufopolitics
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  #1558  
Old 08-30-2012, 01:06 PM
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Different winding Directions

Quote:
Originally Posted by norman6538 View Post
Thank you Ian for your input. You are the first person to get your head wrapped around
the coil/commutator/btush timing stuff. I'm cogitating/thinking about the cw/ccw point.
I did nothear anyone say the coils had different winding directions. Is that true folks?

My big concern now is about proper 180 degree coil/commutator/brush electrical matched phasing. If this is not right it will degrade the potential and we have to get all the potential
there is. The 2 brush even combination with the odd coil setup is probably designed to make the motor start by never being at a magnet coil lockup point. So for now I am sticking
with two pole where its dead on.

Norman
G'Day Norman

Take a length of wire say 1 meter long wind it CW around a round piece of pipe wood broomstick or whatever as a core say 20 turns.
Take it off the core and what do you have a coil of wire 20 or so turns
Now carefully bend this coil in half at 180 degrees and now notice that this coil seems to now be one strand two separate windings joined together half CCW and half CW CCW

Kindest Regards


Kogs still at it
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Old 08-30-2012, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norman6538 View Post
I now understand the motor timing and commutating and the 3 pole is bad but the 5 pole is about right because of the 360 degree rotation design. pole timing commutating understood - first the current goes from brush to coil to brush
from one commutator to the other motor end and are aligned so they are timmed up the same
and each coil is off and waiting till the brush arrives for its one firing in 360 degrees, so one
brush of each end is a set
for the motor and one brush of each end is a set for the generator,

but there is a timing problem with the required efficiency of the 90 degree on/attract and 90 off
to coast
because first of all the brush has width and on begins at its leading edge
and stops at its trailing edge. So if the brush width is 15 degrees that
has to be added to the 120 degrees of the commutator segment giving 135 degrees on
which is way too much...because it will attract back after dead center with power on.
5 pole is a much better because that would be 72 degrees plus 15 giving 85 degrees.

Each coil passes by a motor brush then after 180 degrees it passes a generator brush.

So I am making a lidmotor style simple 2 pole motor to get he wired up right and working.
The small rotor and wires is way too tough for my fingers to manipulate. And I do not
understand why the coils are wound in pairs stretching further than the span of 2 rotor
segments.

Lying down to rest today with my brain turned on brought me to this understanding.
Norman
Norman,

Quote:
but there is a timing problem with the required efficiency of the 90 degree on/attract and 90 off
to coast because first of all the brush has width and on begins at its leading edge
and stops at its trailing edge.
There are "NO PROBLEMS AT ALL WITH THIS MACHINES"...The "only problem" is that You Do NOT understand them right.
You have not even started to build the first machine yet...do that... and then write, speak...

I have developed this machines for many years back...THINK, THEY DO NOT NEED ANYONE...to walk in here trying to make ANY IMPROVEMENTS...OK?!

You are turning "ON THE COMPLETE WRONG STREET."..there is a complete DEAD END there...

Return back...get the "Straight Road" and I will explain...or keep going as you please....You will hit a solid brick wall.


OK?


Ufopolitics
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Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-30-2012 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 08-30-2012, 01:12 PM
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Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
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Correct Ian...

Quote:
Originally Posted by iankoglin View Post
G'Day Norman

I Believe that one coil/strand of wire between 1 pair of brushes is divided in half still one strand half is connected to a commutator segment and wound CCW looking from the outside of the Armature and still the same strand the other half is wound CW looking from the outside of the armature still only one strand and this end of this single strand is connected to the corresponding Commutator segment of the other commutator this single wire is Used both halves as a Generator or both halves as a motor.

At any time when on one end of the armature this strand/ Commutator segment is connected to a Motor brush the corresponding commutator segment on the other end of armature to the corresponding power brush so that this one strand is energised causing half of the single strand to be a magnetic South and at the same time the other end of the single strand is a North pole when the brushes leave these commutator segments the poles are immediately reversed and therefore help to pull/push the armature.

Depending how wide the brushes are they cover more than the one commutator segment pair and therefore more than one strand is energised at any one time.
When the commutator segments come in contact with the Generator brushes the exact opposite takes place and therfore the motor is balanced magnetically and should run smooth.

So any one strand is either a generator or motor coil at any one time Not Both

This is my understanding as to what takes place If I am wrong I am sure I will be corrected.

Kindest Regards


Kogs always working


Good Day my Friend!!


Ian you are completely right in your explanation...no corrections required...


Regards friend!


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