Energetic Forum  
Facebook Twitter Google+ Pinterest LinkedIn Delicious Digg Reddit WordPress StumbleUpon Tumblr Translate Addthis Aaron Murakami YouTube REGISTER NOW*** 2018 ENERGY CONFERENCE ***


Monero XMR


Go Back   Energetic Forum > >
   

Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

* NEW * BEDINI RPX BOOK & DVD SET: BEDINI RPX

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1501  
Old 08-22-2012, 04:57 PM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
Asymmetrical Quad Pentagons Design

Hello to All,

Here is shown a more robust application for the previous Dual Pentagon Five Poles Design.
Note I have "bent" the "Y" Pattern in order not to create conflict of being counter at 180 degrees at Motor or Generator Stages.


[IMG][/IMG]

Motor Stages on top right occur simultaneously, I have separated them for better analysis, and join them at > right upper. However Generator Stages could be Timed at different Angles-Time...bending this way the Fourth Dimension here...Time.
Note that Generator Stage "Stabilizes and Assist" the Motor Throw Out Angles making them balanced, based on "Compensated Momentum Weights".


And here, what I am trying for you guys to do...is also be able to "see" , to visualize those Magnetic Patterns...in order that you could also "play" with them in your further concepts into more clever machines.

Electromagnetic Patterns are rendered here in a Two Dimensional Graphic...However, in reality they develop in a Three Dimensional world, as also this Patterns are like Distorted and Blurry by Rotation...leaving kind of "Ghost Traces" between them...


Regards


Ufopolitics
__________________
 

Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-22-2012 at 10:21 PM.
Reply With Quote

Download SOLAR SECRETS by Peter Lindemann
Free - Get it now: Solar Secrets

  #1502  
Old 08-22-2012, 06:02 PM
prochiro's Avatar
prochiro prochiro is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 670
22 pole info

Hi All
I thought that at one time a 22 pole was mentioned and search does not show anything. Does anyone else recall it and if so where is it. If not I am lost about all the 22 pole motors I have. Some are all set for winding now.
Dana
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1503  
Old 08-22-2012, 07:25 PM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,349
I am still wondering about a 28 pole too. LOL From what I can tell, they would be wound kinda like the 16 pole I just wound.
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda

Last edited by Turion; 08-22-2012 at 07:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #1504  
Old 08-22-2012, 07:50 PM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
Please, don't drawn on Me...in a Glass of Water...LOL

Hello Prochiro and Turion,

@Prochiro:

Hello Dana,

So far that I recall...I have never heard of a 22 Poles here...

Now on the 22 Pole, how many Stators, how many brushes?
I wrote before that just the "# of Poles" will mean absolutely nada...

Now the P-12 could extend to more Poles, like I did when I designed Turion's Razor Motor based on P-16...As also Sebosfato which is an 18 Poles. (by the way I never heard of Fabio again..?)
But this designs MUST be taken into a CAD and rotate them, check them out...to "see" any possible conflicts.

@Turion,

Hello Dave,

The 28 Poles is divisible by Four, resulting in Seven (7) Poles on your Quadrant...again, how many Stators?...Would Seven Poles "fit" within Stators?...or will take more Area in the Pattern?
Now, you could try to expand the P-12 into a P-28 there and see what happens...or apply the BOSCH Motor (Coils in Pairs right next to each others) and see there...
The Seven Pole that Pmazz has built... is also running excellent...That Config could also be expanded into a 28 Pole...at Four Poles Coils...reminding you that 4X7=28...

See how many possibilities You had already there...for your 28 Poles?


And for all others...

I can not be "dedicated" to solve "riddles" every time someone finds a different type of Poles configuration and start a "process" that anyone of you, could perfectly do...just like Me.
I am here to set the Basics, the Fundamentals to "Take Off" on your own...I am rendering simple numbers like Three (3), Five(5) and even Seven (7) Poles , as even 12 Poles...configurations...

And it will be very obvious this basic and primary numbers could be scaled up into "divisible of" bigger "Modular Systems"...

More "Hints"on Design: Poles in Armatures are DIRECTLY RELATED to the NUMBER and SIZE of Your Machine Stators, You can NEVER wind Coils that are BIGGER THAN Stators...or TOO SMALL that Stators won't even "notice" when Armature coils are energized...so there MUST BE A BALANCE between Armature and Stators Fields, always...Even though in Asymmetrical Systems, You have to also consider that the "Generating Side" Coils are going to be "Compensating" the Rotation.


That is the WHOLE IDEA Here...


And so on, and on, and on...(like the Energizer Bunny...)


Regards to All



Ufopolitics
__________________
 

Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-22-2012 at 08:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #1505  
Old 08-22-2012, 08:26 PM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
A Message of "Concern"...

Hello to All,

I wanted to share this "incident" that happened last night...

I was working on the Quad Penta Design...and when I tried to enter Photobucket...it will not allow me to go into my Albums, completely blocked on me, and nothing like "I forgot my password" or the like...I have them saved in ALL my Navigators...

It was a Peer Issue, where My PC was not "communicating" with Photobucket Network Protocol based on a "Certificate Validation"...

I know better than that...I program PHP, as also other Programs related to Networking Engineering and Servers Database like Apache, My SQL and the "works"...So there was such a conflict that I had to reset all passwords and STILL, it did not work...

Finally this morning was able to solve that "Issue"...and load that Diagram...

ALL I wanted to say...is the following:

Please, record and save everything written here.
Go into my Photobucket and download all you want, is free...as also all my videos in You Tube.
Save them in a secure place.

Let's "assume" (Thing I don't like to do) that it was a Casualty, some "Population Networking Momentary Breakdown"...but it is better to be in the "Safe Zone"...than be lost for ever.

As also it would be great that We ALL, will be able to STILL be "In Contact" ...in the event that everything could be completely "Wiped Out of the Picture" one day in the morning...it could happen Ladies and Gentlemen.

You got my email... ufopolitics at gmail dot com, and PLEASE DO NOT write here on this Server Internal Mail, because it is limited and I have to keep deleting very nice messages to keep making space...

Thanks and Regards


Ufopolitics
__________________
 

Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-22-2012 at 08:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #1506  
Old 08-22-2012, 08:41 PM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,349
The 28 pole only have two stators, so that seven fours should work.

Dave
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
  #1507  
Old 08-22-2012, 08:51 PM
JohnStone's Avatar
JohnStone JohnStone is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Global Village
Posts: 1,092
Hi All,
I am back agin in the civilisation. Struggling to follow all posts I missed in the meantime. You were very busy :-) So bear with me - I will be silent for some time.
Just some ammendments:
A: You discussed the torque and power measurement.
1. see The basic idea of this guy is to mount the unit under test on an the flange of an old crancshaft with a bearing. The crank presses a normal scale for torque measurement and an optical meter counts for revolutions per minute. Regard for alternatives mentioned in discussion contained in that page.
2. Is there out there a guy being able to program micros? This is a power test stand for an electric bike drive. see

B: Your suggestion for a motor from a vacuum cleaner motor is marvelous. They have a long shaft on one side and the bearing / brusch holder can be mounted on both sides.
Question: The count of poles needs to be devidable by 3 or 5? Right?
__________________
Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

Last edited by JohnStone; 08-22-2012 at 09:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #1508  
Old 08-22-2012, 08:58 PM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
Great!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
The 28 pole only have two stators, so that seven fours should work.

Dave
Dave I responded your e-mail and ask you, related to the kind of batteries you were using...but never heard from you there.

If you are using Automotive, high cranking amps batteries...they will provide up to 800 Cranking Amps...and there will be No Meter (unless a $5000.00 Snap On) that will measure that value.

Do you have the original Razor Scooter Batteries?...Or Gel 12V /15-20 or 33 Amps?

For this tests is better to use Deep Cycle Batteries and NOT Automotive ones, which are Short Cycle...
Short Cycle batteries tend to "Vomit", Burst all Amperage when they are shorted by any given circuit, in this case a Coil...while Deep Cycle render power in a more "stabilized" and "Soft" fashion.

Deep Cycle Batteries are used in ALL Electric Vehicles...Golf and Recreational as also in Scooters and Electric Bikes. They take longer to charge...but since Batteries "have memory" they also render their output slower than Fast Charge, Fast Discharge Batteries...

Fast Discharge batteries are used to start Gas Engines of ANY kind, and that applies also to Gas Scooters/Bikes/Jet Ski, and All Marine Batteries, since all they require is a Fast and High "Dump" of Amperage to a Symmetrical Starter Motor, that requires that "Much Amps" to produce enough torque to turn the compressing pistons...in an Explosion Engine......then Alternator-Voltage Regulators Systems recharge them at a Fast rate...in the very first minutes of operating vehicle. And once Gas Vehicle/Craft is running and Battery recovered, then Voltage Regulating System takes over the whole electrical supply, where Battery is almost "disconnected" from System. Actually you can take Battery off and keep going...


Regards


Ufopolitics
__________________
 

Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-22-2012 at 10:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #1509  
Old 08-22-2012, 09:14 PM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
Welcome again Dear Friend!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnStone View Post
Hi All,
I am back agin in the civilisation. Struggling to follow all posts I missed in the meantime. You were very busy :-) So bear with me - I will be silent for some time.
Just some ammendments:
A: You discussed the torque and power measurement.
1. see The basic idea of this guy is to mount the unit under test on an the flange of an old crancshaft with a bearing. The crank presses a normal scale for torque measurement and an optical meter counts for revolutions per minute. Regard for alternatives mentioned in discussion contained in that page.
2. Is there out there a guy being able to program micros? This is a power test stand for an electric bike drive. see

B: Your suggestion for a motor from a vacuum cleaner motor is marvelous. They have a long shaft on one side and the bearing / brusch holder can be mounted on both sides.
Question: The count of poles needs to be devidable by 3 or 5? Right?

Hello MR John Stone!!

So nice to have you again around Us here!

Great sites there, basically on the very small Motor Torque measurements...that is excellent to be able to measure efficiency in our very small "Toys"...

Yes John, divisible by 3,5 and seven...and 12 for bigger machines.
Even though, there is always a way to "fool" this symmetrical structures...by jumping even angles-at same poles around the whole 360...
Kind of lot of material since you left...but very interesting to see the outcomes that have happened so far...

Warm regards dear friend!!


Ufopolitics
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1510  
Old 08-22-2012, 10:34 PM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,349
UFO,

I have some 2.5 amp hour batteries
some 18 amp hour batteries
I have some 12 volt car batteries
and some 500 CCA deep cycle marine batteries. I had planned on using the two brand new 500 CCA deep cycle marine batteries for the test...if my amp gauges ever get here. I am going to take a video and send YOU the link, and then you can help me address any issues or problems before I post the link here. Fair enough?

I have another issue that is confusing me. You referred to the generator output on these motors as positive and negative. I thought this was AC output, so IS THERE a positive and negative I need to be concerned about? I haven't been up to this point.

Dave
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
  #1511  
Old 08-22-2012, 11:02 PM
prochiro's Avatar
prochiro prochiro is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 670
Poles, stators, brushes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello Prochiro and Turion,

@Prochiro:
Now on the 22 Pole, how many Stators, how many brushes?
I wrote before that just the "# of Poles" will mean absolutely nada...

Now the P-12 could extend to more Poles, like I did when I designed Turion's Razor Motor based on P-16...As also Sebosfato which is an 18 Poles. (by the way I never heard of Fabio again..?)
But this designs MUST be taken into a CAD and rotate them, check them out...to "see" any possible conflicts.
Hello UFO
Thanks for the response. I knew you were busy and was not wanting to bother you. I have 22 poles, 2 stators and 2 brushes. I have three different vacuum motor types and all have 22 poles. This may be common for vacuums and these are large rotors with much ease of modification.Dana
__________________
 

Last edited by prochiro; 08-22-2012 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Spelling
Reply With Quote
  #1512  
Old 08-22-2012, 11:03 PM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
Batteries...and Generators...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
UFO,

I have some 2.5 amp hour batteries
some 18 amp hour batteries
I have some 12 volt car batteries
and some 500 CCA deep cycle marine batteries. I had planned on using the two brand new 500 CCA deep cycle marine batteries for the test...if my amp gauges ever get here. I am going to take a video and send YOU the link, and then you can help me address any issues or problems before I post the link here. Fair enough?
Use the 18 Amps if you have two...to make up the 24 Volts Total, and then try what amps My Machine gets at In-Out?...

And ...DO NOT USE the "Deep Cycle Marine Batteries"...they belong to the "Dual Purpose" Operating Batteries, meaning they are "Hybrids" of the two Worlds...Deep and Fast...However, and again, if you short them with ANY given Coil, including a Symmetrical Starter Motor...they will Blast, Dump High Amperage...and You do not want that ...right?

Quote:
I have another issue that is confusing me. You referred to the generator output on these motors as positive and negative. I thought this was AC output, so IS THERE a positive and negative I need to be concerned about? I haven't been up to this point.

Dave
Dave, AC Generators have a "Sine Wave" Winding, completely different to what we are doing here...they run on Continuous Slip Ring Contacts...never on an element divided commutator...those are DC Generators.

If We get in...DC and get out AC...without a Diode Bridge Rectifier...it will be a "Miracle"...

Your Digital Meters are reading AC, just because there are Spikes and Coarse High-Low Volts Signals (non rectified, filtered, clean waves) in that output...

So, yes Dave, they are DC Output, as THERE IS also a Positive and a Negative terminal to "have in mind" at Generator Output...


Regards


Ufopolitics
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1513  
Old 08-23-2012, 09:51 AM
abdlquadri abdlquadri is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 60
archive

Hi All,

Found the UFO threads late. I wish to read up but I can stay online while reading, cost.

Please has anyone archived this thread in pdf complete with text and images.

Please share

Regards
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1514  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:08 AM
JohnStone's Avatar
JohnStone JohnStone is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Global Village
Posts: 1,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
...
Great sites there, basically on the very small Motor Torque measurements...that is excellent to be able to measure efficiency in our very small "Toys"...
....
Hi Ufo,
Ok my friend if we exceed the "Toy State" - i'm shure we will - then listen to a more serious concept.
  • Get a shaft out of quality steel i.e. 1/4" diameter and 20" length. (i.e. valve plungers from American big block engines)
  • Support the shaft on both ends with bearings.
  • Connect the UUT on one end and the break system (whatever you choose) on the other end.
  • We are going to measure the torsion of the shaft under load.
  • Add a disk (i.e. from PC hard drives) or pulley on each end of the shaft.
  • Apply a reflective marker on both disks being aligned.
  • Add a photo interruptor to each pulley (Alternative: magnets and hall sensors)
  • Add a microprocessor. (i.e. Arduino / Teensy)/
The concept is highly scalable and can start from a 3mm shaft and go up to heavy rods. The length of the shaft needs to be adjusted in order to get suffitient torsion for a given torque.
Calibration is possible with a prony brake or Peter Lindemann style. Calibrate by positioning the second pulley along the shaft or by program calibration.

Given we have the corresponding program the jig performs:
  • Measure the time for one revolution and calculate: frequency, angular velocity -> RPM
  • Measure the time shift between the markers and calculate: phase shift, torsion angle, angular force
  • Calculate power being transmmitted over the shaft
  • Transfer the values to a PC via USB in an excel file
    Alternative:
    Get raw date from micro to PC and do the calculations at will on Excel level.

Known problems:
- Shaft oscillations depending on the smoothness of the drive or brake.
- Use of fast photointerruptors required in order to operate in high rpm range.
- The graph of torque vs. torsion might be nonlinear. Is there a mech expert out there?
- Minimum time slot of 30s detectable for standard arduino micros. This might impact resolution at small torque values.


Unfortunately my programming experience ended 30 years ago. We need the help of a person being able to modify the public C-codes from the E-bike test stand mentioned above.
The program download into the teensy will be performed via USB as well! Power will be supplied by USB as well.
The electronic part is basic and requires lower skills.

Further options (see E-bike test stand mentioned above):
  • volt / amp measurement for generator output along Watt calculation
  • same for input power
The electronic skills required are moderate again: see 4. Hardware. The chance to get a chart with overall energy input/output is intriguing!l

Is there an arduino expert out there? We can do excellent work if we share :-)
rgds John
__________________
Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.

Last edited by JohnStone; 08-23-2012 at 02:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #1515  
Old 08-23-2012, 07:16 PM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
Asymmetrical 22 Poles 2 Stators 2 Brush System

Hello @ ALL,

And of course to Prochiro who has this Armature set...

[IMG][/IMG]

It is based on the same P-12 Original configuration I designed for the 12 Poles Armature, but expanded to a "P-22"...
Note I am comprehending Five Poles per Coil, leaving two Poles, one above and one below free every Two opposed Pairs...like P1 and P12.
The Brush Magenta line could be moved towards P-22, to adjust-increase Torque and Speed, due to higher magnetic "Throw Out" forces (based on closer Stator to set Motor adjusted is North). Generator side will do proper reversal and assist rotation...as always on this Systems.

I figured Stator Area at approximate sizes...but they could be bigger or smaller...if bigger, Machine will increase all parameters...

Now Prochiro, since you have wound Stators, they could be re-winded using Bifilar Coils, as also to Pulse them...
So, borrow Bob's Oscillator...let's see if He will lend it...

However, this Design will perform MUCH Better when pulsed within a Four Stator-Four Brush Assembly.


Regards


Ufopolitics
__________________
 

Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-24-2012 at 09:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #1516  
Old 08-23-2012, 11:55 PM
prochiro's Avatar
prochiro prochiro is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 670
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You, UFO

I have been cutting wood all day and just checked to see what was going on. I could not be more surprised as I know you have other things going on and did not expect to see this for several weeks. I will take a shower and study this as well as finish winding my homemade motor tonight as the wire came in also. I had much room left in the stator area so will put on a couple more layers separate to test with. You are the MAN.
Dana
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1517  
Old 08-24-2012, 12:51 AM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,349
My 65 amp panel gauges finally came in the mail today, so tomorrow I will be completing all tests on the unmodified and modified motors and taking video of the process. Finally!!!

EDIT!!!!!!!!

Turns out, that will not be happening. I got two brand new 75 amp panel meters, and when either on of them is put in line, the motor will not start. When I try to use the 5 amp panel meters I have, they are maxed out by the motor running, even with 5 CFL bulbs lit and running off the output. Or with NO CFL bulbs connected to the output. SO I will have to order yet ANOTHER panel amp meter to do the testing. This will mean ANOTHER week of delay while I wait for a panel meter to come in the mail.

UFO motor failed test - YouTube
Oh...I titled this UFO failed test...That doesn't mean the motor failed a test...it means I failed to test the motor!

Dave
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda

Last edited by Turion; 08-24-2012 at 10:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #1518  
Old 08-24-2012, 08:22 PM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
Better Measurement Tooling Part I:Direct Voltage Adaptor

Hello to All,

Here I wanted to share an specific Adaptor that will fit most Digital Multimeter, it is called a Direct Voltage Adaptor, and is typically used for:

Quote:
Converts outboard marine, motorcycle and other small engine ignition pulse signals into DC voltage signals.
Adaptor helps identify secondary ignition problems like failed individual coil packs or poor spark.
[IMG][/IMG]

However, the uses go beyond that, and for those familiar with Outboard Engines, basically their Generators Systems, this tool could read the coils output spikes before getting to the Voltage Regulator, in order to diagnose any faulty coil.
Marine Outboard Engines have a Bell Housing mounted to the Crankshaft, on the upper section, this bell contains several permanent magnets mounted on its vertical outer wall (Number of Coils-Magnets depending on engine CC Displacement/HP) that rotate facing several respective coils attached to a fixed contouring ring housing...this is the "Generator or Alternator Assembly Fields", from here all coils are connected to the Voltage Regulator Box...So, this Adaptor measures the Coils Raw Output in their "Non Filtered State". It has an Electronic Processor that very accurately measures the True Average Direct Voltage Output.

This is a very valuable Tool to measure our Machines Real DC Generating side, since their output is based on Non Linear DC Pulses.

The next best Tool to do this accurate measurement would be an Oscilloscope...however, Tool sells for 31.99 USD

They will fit most DVM Brands Input for Common and Voltage Terminals Pattern-Distance, without the need of a secondary extension cable. Connection is simple, plug in adaptor to Meter and connect your Probes to the Adaptor output...and read.

Some cheaper Digital Multimeter will go "crazy" with My Asymmetric Machines output, and they will keep flashing different range values, at very high-low levels...while other more expensive DVM's will render wrong measurements, since they have built in processor-analyzers-executors, to protect electronic circuitry from high Pulsed DC variable wavelength signals...then we will not obtain a True Reading Value.


Any questions, please ask Me, however, I will be downloading soon a video where that tool is shown at Lab work...and compared to my DSO (Digital Storage Oscilloscope) for Tool Accuracy in reading values.


Next: A very cheap but very accurate method to measure RPM's...BUT ONLY in My Asymmetrical Machines...


Regards to All


Ufopolitics
__________________
 

Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-24-2012 at 08:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #1519  
Old 08-24-2012, 09:29 PM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
Fixing Your Amps Meter Problem...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
My 65 amp panel gauges finally came in the mail today, so tomorrow I will be completing all tests on the unmodified and modified motors and taking video of the process. Finally!!!

EDIT!!!!!!!!

Turns out, that will not be happening. I got two brand new 75 amp panel meters, and when either on of them is put in line, the motor will not start. When I try to use the 5 amp panel meters I have, they are maxed out by the motor running, even with 5 CFL bulbs lit and running off the output. Or with NO CFL bulbs connected to the output. SO I will have to order yet ANOTHER panel amp meter to do the testing. This will mean ANOTHER week of delay while I wait for a panel meter to come in the mail.

UFO motor failed test - YouTube

Dave

Hello Dave,


I watched the video, but I was waiting for you just to push that lever down...to see the Dynapower by Turionforce at work!!...

...but did not happened...

By the way your Machine Sounds Grreat!...Love that "Roaring Sound"!

Anyways, here is a way you could try to "patch" your problem...
I got very similar Amp Meters...and they have a Resistor joining the Back contacts to close circuit...some lower Amps have just a thick gauge copper wire JUMPER...others have a resistor (now, this is outside the meter, NEVER opening them...
If Yours HAVE A RESISTOR jumping the terminals...You could try a lower value based on Your Batteries Voltage-Amperage...
What Batteries are you using ?...You never told me...I ask you to use two 12V 18 Amps...(if you had them "two)

So, Old Ohm Law could help you there...You have Batteries Amps and Volts values...therefore, Resistance should be R=V/I=12V/18A?...
Then you could try jumping the back terminals with a bit HIGHER Resistor value than the Ohm Equation result (to "play safe" and go above Batt Amperage)...BUT MUST BE a High Watts Resistor!!...because it WILL get HOT.


Regards


Ufopolitics
__________________
 

Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-24-2012 at 09:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #1520  
Old 08-24-2012, 10:15 PM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,349
I did use two 18 amp hour 12 volt batteries in series for 24 volts.

None of my meters have a resister on the outside, so I am stuck. I didn't want to show any footage of any kind of testing until I clear it with you, but I did want folks to know I am TRYING and not just messing around. I ordered two 30 amp meters already. Don't know when they will get here. I can't use the metal pulley that is on my motor for the test. It has a weird reaction with the leather belt and yanks it all over the place. Besides, it is 8 1/4 inch in circumference. I have a plastic wheel I will use that is exactly 6 inches in circumference, so will make calculations much easier. I have tested both motors with the plastic wheel, so I already know the results, but I am not saying a word until I can video it with all the proper gauges connected and you preview it and approve it.

Dave
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
  #1521  
Old 08-24-2012, 10:37 PM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
Top Secret Testings...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I did use two 18 amp hour 12 volt batteries in series for 24 volts.

None of my meters have a resister on the outside, so I am stuck. I didn't want to show any footage of any kind of testing until I clear it with you, but I did want folks to know I am TRYING and not just messing around. I ordered two 30 amp meters already. Don't know when they will get here. I can't use the metal pulley that is on my motor for the test. It has a weird reaction with the leather belt and yanks it all over the place. Besides, it is 8 1/4 inch in circumference. I have a plastic wheel I will use that is exactly 6 inches in circumference, so will make calculations much easier. I have tested both motors with the plastic wheel, so I already know the results, but I am not saying a word until I can video it with all the proper gauges connected and you preview it and approve it.

Dave

Quote:
I have tested both motors with the plastic wheel, so I already know the results...
Teasing time?...

Could We get a "hint"...?!...
Or they would be kept "Top Secret" til Meters arrival...
Could We get at least a "preview"...a "Teaser Presentation Video"?...

Edit 1: Dave,

In the meantime we wait for the meters...You could run the simple test I requested while back,,,Remember?... to take BOTH Motors to a complete STALL...Stop, and FORGET about putting a Load at Modified Output...
Feeding them with EXACTLY same batteries as above you have mentioned...12 X 2=24 V and 18 Amps...Let them both develop same time to reach full power-speed, then start pressing in Dyno, read Pounds and Voltage consumption at Batteries ONLY...by blocking them with Diodes from Motors load...and of course "Time" to get there...to a Stop...but that will show on Video...
Please Recharge Batteries after each Motor tests...and let them seat for half hour...
As also...Read Batteries Voltage BEFORE and AFTER both tests.
Please set Camera in a fixed place, in order to see the whole thing in just one view (moving camera is not a good idea...and video looses good views)...so that the Dyno Lever deflection is shown also.
I forgot to mention that a scale with a needle could also be adapted to lever (very similar to your Torque Wrench)...to clearly see deflection angle to reach stall...or decrease RPM's. In order to compare both machines "travel" differences at Lever.

Thanks

Regards


Ufopolitics
__________________
 

Last edited by Ufopolitics; 08-25-2012 at 03:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #1522  
Old 08-25-2012, 04:57 AM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,349
I will video that test in the morning. I can hook the leather strap around the wheel and back to the same spring scale, then tighten it down until motor stalls. I can do this with both motors. That's a simple test. Going down now to put batteries on charger so they will be fully charged in the morning. I will try to do the test first thing in the AM and get you the link to the video.

Dave
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
  #1523  
Old 08-25-2012, 09:44 PM
gyula gyula is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 808
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post

EDIT!!!!!!!!

Turns out, that will not be happening. I got two brand new 75 amp panel meters, and when either one of them is put in line, the motor will not start. When I try to use the 5 amp panel meters I have, they are maxed out by the motor running, even with 5 CFL bulbs lit and running off the output. Or with NO CFL bulbs connected to the output. SO I will have to order yet ANOTHER panel amp meter to do the testing. This will mean ANOTHER week of delay while I wait for a panel meter to come in the mail.
Hi Dave,

Have you tried the following: just hook up one 75 Amper meter just as when you had the failed motor start but just short circuit the meter with a piece of (heavier) wire to exlude it at startup and when the motor already started and running, just remove the shorting wire from the meter contacts to include the meter in the circuit as it should be included and see how the motor behaves then.
(Also, if you feel like checking the inner resistance of the 75 Amper meters with a simple digital Ohm meter to make sure they are within spec? IF there is no spec available they must have a fraction of an Ohm inner DC resistance, maybe difficult to measure?)
Are these meters moving coil or moving iron meters? just curious...

regards
Gyula
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1524  
Old 08-26-2012, 12:00 AM
norman6538 norman6538 is online now
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 24
next step should be Turion replication

I think it is very important to have someone replicate what Turion has done.
I finally read almost all of the material and compared the Alexander motor because
I made one about 8 years ago and still have it. I am a little confused about the
windings and the commutator so will use 2 poles for my first motor hopefully in
a few days.

Next the measurements need to be well done or there will be "measurement wars".
An analog meter should be used because with spiky motors digital meters jump
around too much to hand your hat on. And Battery measurement lends itself to
another set of wars. the Bedini motor folks know all about that.


Thanks to all who have shared. I thoroughly enjoyed the various commutator modifications.

If it performs like the Alexander motor 1:3 then they can be cascaded and self power
a golfcart, bicycle or vehicle. Imagine that.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1525  
Old 08-26-2012, 02:18 AM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
I agree 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by norman6538 View Post
I think it is very important to have someone replicate what Turion has done.
I finally read almost all of the material and compared the Alexander motor because
I made one about 8 years ago and still have it. I am a little confused about the
windings and the commutator so will use 2 poles for my first motor hopefully in
a few days.

Next the measurements need to be well done or there will be "measurement wars".
An analog meter should be used because with spiky motors digital meters jump
around too much to hand your hat on. And Battery measurement lends itself to
another set of wars. the Bedini motor folks know all about that.


Thanks to all who have shared. I thoroughly enjoyed the various commutator modifications.

If it performs like the Alexander motor 1:3 then they can be cascaded and self power
a golfcart, bicycle or vehicle. Imagine that.

Hello Norman, and Welcome!!

Yes, definitively agree with you in a 100%...Turion tests MUST be replicated by MANY guys here...I mean, this Chinese Razor Motor is not an expensive deal at all...as Turion wrote here and also Mathew Jones...this Motors could also be easily found in scooter repair shops or junks...
But Price of a New one is less than 40.00 USD...Plus there is a place here to get the extra commutator and also the brushes also in a post here.

A Motor in order to have enough Torque in Asymmetrical Designs as to drive Electric Cars or Scooters...should be Four Stators, Four Brush Systems.

Regards


Ufopolitics
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1526  
Old 08-26-2012, 10:13 PM
norman6538 norman6538 is online now
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 24
magnet polarity, brush/commutator question

in the ufopolitics motor drawings he shows a red magnet and a blue magnet meaning
different polarities but in the Alexander patent the magnet pole at the armature is
the same and in all of the DC permanent magnet motors I have seen the magnet
poles at the armature is the same on both magnets. What is it supposed to be?
I suspect same poles.

Brush/commutator question. The carbon brush is used to transfer the electric path
to the armature and then to the coils. The commutator segments are used to select
which coil gets the electric path and sometimes to reverse that path as in the case
of the old auto brush/commutator generator used before alternators with diodes were used.
The switching caused the AC current to stop the sine wave and flip the wires to maintain DC current.

In the Alexander motor slip rings were used for the generator out
giving AC current.
In the case of the UFO motor generator what is the commutator doing?

My greatest delima is when I ohm out a 3 pole DC motor with no brushes connected
I get the same ohms between each commutator segment. How can the brush
to commutator to coil make any commutation switching to the proper coils?

I have searched the net and found 2 pole explanations with opposite magnetic
poles but no 3 pole explanations with two like magnetic poles near the armature.

This is driving me crazy. Please enlighten me...

Norman
__________________
 

Last edited by norman6538; 08-26-2012 at 10:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #1527  
Old 08-26-2012, 10:50 PM
pmazz850's Avatar
pmazz850 pmazz850 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 211
poles are not the same...

Norman,

The magnetic poles are not the same in these dc motors.
Hope that helps.
Pmazz
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1528  
Old 08-26-2012, 10:51 PM
pmazz850's Avatar
pmazz850 pmazz850 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 211
UFO,
In the fiberglass stator, does it have to be multi layer? If so I must make a larger core. Its alot of wire to cram on there....
Pmazz.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #1529  
Old 08-27-2012, 12:47 AM
prochiro's Avatar
prochiro prochiro is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 670
Fiberglass Stator

pmazz850 Hi There
As I remember you were doing something like a 2 inch rotor. That is right on the edge of being too small as the stator needs width and height to hold all that wire. What I did was take scrap 24 gage wire and cut it into a lot of small pieces so I could tell how much area so much wire would take. What I found is that when using 24 gage on the fiberglass stator and six layers one would need 5/16 inch clear between fins and 1 inch tall fins,(if you pack it down firm), else 3/8 clear between fins. That is a lot of space taken up on a two inch diameter. I did a three inch diameter. I used model airplane three ply plywood and brushed a coat of epoxy over it to make them hard. My stator is not all that strong of magnetic pull and I think I need more layers or larger wire, probably 20 gage. Here is a few pictures, I took it down so you could see it better.

Pictures by Prochiroone - Photobucket

Dana
__________________
 

Last edited by prochiro; 08-27-2012 at 12:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #1530  
Old 08-27-2012, 04:54 AM
Ufopolitics's Avatar
Ufopolitics Ufopolitics is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: US, Florida
Posts: 4,662
Multilayer

Quote:
Originally Posted by pmazz850 View Post
UFO,
In the fiberglass stator, does it have to be multi layer? If so I must make a larger core. Its alot of wire to cram on there....
Pmazz.
Hello Pmazz,

No, it does not have to be multifilar...the one I show on Timeless Machine is single wire.
It is just a stronger field and better performance...but for smaller builds is no need to.
Hey Pmazz, have you done any testing, and videos on the seven poles?
We want to see it running!!...humming...flying around...

Regards


Ufopolitics
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
w4t, machines, electrodynamic, asymmetric

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Please consider supporting Energetic Forum with a voluntary monthly subscription.

For One-Time Donations, use admin@ this domain > energeticforum.com

Choose your voluntary subscription

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v1.4.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2007-2015 Copyright - Energetic Forum - All Rights Reserved

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator

Tesla Chargers