Thanks Bistander,

I knew my answer will trigger some "BEMF"...

Ok, what I meant (related to Classic Explanation) you all know how it goes...right?
And, yes, I meant "Current TRIES to keep being CONSTANT, while Voltage REVERSES".

Now, IF Coil has been completely disconnected it means no further supply of either voltage nor current would be available. So, this means that no matter how much current "attempts" or "tries" to keep a Constant Value, it could not be possible to maintain this constant through time...Then it means current will have absolutely no other recourse but to start falling down as originated magnetic field collapses.

Now, related to "Reversal" versus "Constant" meanings...

Reversal is not the opposite of constant, it does not say so in the link you've cited. That link only tries to explain what a reversal is.

For example: A Current VALUE could keep being CONSTANT (The Same Amp Value), while it COULD change directions, therefore, Current REVERSES and its value remains CONSTANT

Let's say a Constant I = 1 Amp and a swapping Voltage from plus to minus Signal (in a Square Wave like shown below) is fed to a Coil:

[IMG][/IMG]

That Coil is receiving a V Reversal over time, while Current Value is constant...this means this Coil is swapping Magnetic Fields Polarities over time as well.

Now, how do you think Current behaves here during Up-Down V Cycles?

And by the way...I am making that video related to the CRT Imaging Magnetic Fields...so, that is why I have been away from posting...but am almost done, so get ready...


Ufopolitics

__________________
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reversal Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Hi Ufo,

Reversal is the act of changing... And constant means non-changing or unchanging. So reversal is definitely not constant. Maybe not opposite, but something reversing is not constant.

You seem to want to imply an unchanging magnitude would qualify as constant when that quantity also has a direction or sign as in a vector. Would +20ºC changing to -20ºC be a constant temperature? Would a northbound 60mph changing to westbound 60mph be a constant velocity? I don't think so. And +30Amps changing to -30Amps is not a constant current.

Regards,

bi

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brought it to my nuke boat electrician buddy and had him walk thru things.....

From Chapter 10 on Inductance:

"If a battery is connected across a pure inductance, the current builds up to its final value ... When the battery is disconnected, the lines of force collapse, again cutting the turns of the inductor and building up an emf that tends to prolong the current flow."

After all current and voltage (CEMF) in a coil is generated by CHANGING magnetic fields. The book has some great descriptions of this. CEMF is generated in any coil as current changes. Something like that anyway...

So just envision the operation of the brushes connecting and disconnecting the battery from the coils. So the coil turns into a source instead of a sink when the battery is disconnected and must be trying to keep the current going, as my nuke boat buddy tells me, by collapsing the field. It takes 5 time constants, L/R. So the field can be seen to be maximized and stable (Constant?) and then collapses (Changing) feeding the lines EMF which drives the current. No field reversal just a field transitioning from Constant to Changing-(Collapsing).

Thats a nice link Inductive Kickback.

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Up, Up and Away

I'll wait for you to tell me.

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See Bistander, I want to say I do understand your point of view...and up to a point your examples on temperature and MPH, makes sense to a first glance...

Now let's think of Vectors of Force...same Force Value, but in different directions ...isn't it the same force no matter what direction vectors take? ...isn't it a constant force in different directions? (and not necessarily meaning "opposite" as in a 180º line, since I know this way both vectors will cancel to zero)...

In electricity you and I know, as many here... that we could reverse any parameter like V&I at exactly Zero Time.
However, we can not do that with temperature changes like in your example.

Now, related to speed...or your example of 60 MPH...let me ask you:
Isn't that Vehicle traveling at the same speed/time as a constant...no matter what direction is following?

Let me add this example:

You are traveling in a 45 MPH Zone at your 60 MPH...You travel North bound then West bound...while a Trooper is following you and turns lights up in his roof...He stops you...and what happens?

Do you think the Trooper cares what direction you were traveling?......OR the fact you were doing it Over the speed limit at a CONSTANT Violation of 15 extra MPH?

I see the problem you have to understand my point is that you are looking at the "range" or "interval" between a Plus and a Minus...but not at the maintained value to admit it is a constant value.

Let me remind you that amperage, current or Intensity (I) in Electricity means Electron Population at a (one(1)) point of conductor over time and not like Voltage or Potential which is measured in specific conductor length between two (2) points.

Based on the above paragraph is easy to understand a Voltage reversal between two points...or... two terminals of a Coil.

However, it is not that easy to conceive a "negative or positive amperage" of just a "point" in a conductor...

Anyways, resuming here about my answer to Sampojo...and all this discussion between you and me here...let me say that the main point which -I believe- it answers Sam question...is not about current "trying" to remain constant, but about voltage reversal in that coil example compared to asymmetric motors.

It is a very old question, which always leaves some doubts...:

If an Inductor terminals reverses Voltage when it is disconnected...does it changes magnetic polarities?

And We all know that if we reverse the voltage input of any coil...we will be reversing its magnetic polarities as well...right?

Could it be demonstrated it does or it doesn't in a way that everyone (skeptics and free energy minds) be satisfied?

So far -that I know off- what really happens has not been able to be demonstrated...

Maybe someone will...very soon...


Regards


Ufopolitics

__________________
Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

I will tell you one simple reality...

In this "phenomena" about the coils voltage reversals and currents transitions it has always being disregarded the true magnetic field behavior. It just has being said "field collapses"...or "field is generated"...however, no one has responded "How does field -exactly- do both "operations"?"

As an example...In another Thread You could not conceive nor accept that magnetic field in a Coil is generated exactly from the center of that coil toward both extremes to form the known "poles"...no matter the size, length, width or any other spec's...Then much less I will expect you to accept it also collapses right towards that same exact point where it was generated...the gravitational center.

If this fact is not understood properly, not even accepted "as a possibility"...even to try to open your mind, just a bit...then any "electrical consequence" due to generation or collapse from any coil's magnetic field...would be based from parameter's reading with whatever we have available "on hand" -which is absolutely not enough instrumentation- plus some mathematical equations trying to reconcile the obtained results...but very far from reality.

This is the very truth about "our situation" so far...Bistander.


Honestly.


Ufopolitics

__________________
Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

Hi Ufo,

It is easy for me to conceive the direction of the current in a circuit or through a point in a conductor. This is assigned a mathematical sign (+ or -). Then current in the opposite direction assumes the opposite sign. This is pretty basic in the circuit analysis. Just as the polarity of a potential difference is assigned.

Do you also have difficulty in conceiving the direction of flow in a pipe? No need to answer that. I think we're straying off topic.

bi

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Ufo,

You can imagine fields coming from anywhere you want. I am fine with what I know. You have a wire. No field. Put a current through that wire and you have a magnetic field around that wire. Cease the current flow and the magnetic field disappears. The effects of the magnetic field can be measured and there are maths explaining the behavior and interactions. Works for me. If you have something useful for your gravitational center point of origin of the magnetic field, please show me. Otherwise I don't much care or have a use for it.

Regards,

bi

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sampojo,

I am glad the link to inductive kickback was helpful to you.

SisMika

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There are some nice scope traces on the charge and discharge of a coil at the Overunity Inductive kickback link post 7955 by SisMika. My Basic Electricity manual had those too (drawings). In my Basic Electricity NavPersMan, some interesting descriptions there which I think could be explored. So looking at gyula's scope shots:



Now looking at rising blue flyback pulse so labelled, it is a rounded knee showing some loss. My NavPersMan says this is because, from the instant voltage is applied to a coil, a Counter EMF arises to try to fight the the current. It would seem it fights the change by extracting the electrical energy and converts it to generating the magnetic field. As the current approaches steady state, the CEMF of the coil goes to zero. Then when the battery is disconnected, the CEMF must then go opposite of what it was to become a source, and at that point is maximum. It would seem that the field may not flip, whatever the mechanism is, but just decay in order to supply EMF now in the opposite direction. If the field flipped, the asym motor sweet spot would always be very near the neutral point between N & S fields. But it seems the coils are deep in the middle of one side of the magnetic dipole, as their commutator segment hits the brushes. I always have seen a broad range of performance of the motors around the best performance spot, and it only fell off significantly after moving wide angular amounts. If the field flipped, timing would be much more critical.

Here is Tinman's circuit (Almost identical to my manual again!) that goes with the trace. It has some similarities to electric motor operation, in particular Edison style. What's important is it shows the polarity flipping with the switch. Note that what is not shown clearly is that in diagram 1 the battery voltage is + on top with the coil + fighting it (CEMF). The battery on diagram 2 is out of the circuit and doesn't matter. It curious that he has reversed the battery diagram which could be confusing, but it is inconsequential.



Looking at the declining flyback pulse. the coil is now acting like a source. So in a sym motor all coils are interconnected, and the Coil CEMF fights the battery. This negative pulse is disconnected in the the asym motor.

Sound right Ufo?

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Up, Up and Away

planning multifilar with 4 30ga strands, figuring about 25-30' per coil, with 20 coil groups.. Approximates the 19ga wire I took off, about 450'. I will try to put a little more wire on than I took off, although the rotor was stuffed when I dismantled it. Ufo helped with this wiring diagram a while back.



Here is the motor redesigned for assymetric operation, posted before.



I got some time on my hands again.

What I am not sure of is, do I wind CW or CCW? I guess I need to do it the same way as my GM window unipolars, which I ought to have written down or reverse engineer.

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Up, Up and Away

Hello Sam, great to see you as to know you also have some time now!

That would be an interesting motor when finished, am sure off.

Now remember that the terms CW or CCW are completely relative and dependent from the reference point you are setting your watch/clock...

For example take a look at this old diagram when we were winding N-S Pairs, but just focus on the North/Blue side:

[IMG][/IMG]

Normally our reference point has always been the side of shaft where we are connecting to take power off, remember?

[IMG][/IMG]

Above same image without the hand reference method.

So let's say you will start from the positive(+)commutator, which, at the same token is where power take off Shaft is, meaning on graphic, the top starting point (1). So the North Pole would be aiming towards screen, and if you set your watch with the clock needles shaft also pointing towards screen, then it would be a CW winding. However, if you set the watch shaft aiming away from screen...then that same winding direc tion would be CCW...see why it is all relative?

To play safe just do one set of windings first hooked to both comm elements...then power up coils with a small battery source and read outward magnetic orientation on both cores...

Hope all this free time will allow you to complete the whole thing...it seems you have all the mechanical structure already finished...so it is just winding and connections to commutators, then fire it up...


Kind regards


Ufopolitics

__________________
Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

Hi Ufo,

I want to make sure I get the polarity and direction of rotation in agreement with option (1) reference of your winding direction diagram. I converted your right hand rule diagram to a unipolar representation and then included my P20 diagram to try to nail the direction of roation. So clearly a N-pole coil will repel from the N magnet and attract to the S magnet. The green (+) and red (-) dots are also shown on the motor diagram commutator, which the convention established is the rear commutator is the inner ring.

I believe I have the direction of rotation wrong on my previous P20 winding diagram, which has been corrected below. Here is what I have put together to make it clear to me.



Ufo, please confirm if my diagram has the motor rotation correct now.

Would you consider this motor would then operate in "repulsion" mode or attraction mode? (repulsion should use less amperage?)

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Up, Up and Away

Hello Sam,

Sorry for taking so long, I've been swamped...

It seems you've got it right friend...except for the wire going to the red or green dots in right diag, can't see it that clear, sorry.

I have made another diagram for your set up below:

[IMG][/IMG]

Hope it looks better now.

So the way I see it, you start from top commutator (positive), then go down from the first core element to left (CW if you put watch/clock right next to core elements to be wrapped). Then you will obtain a North facing out towards stators, like I have shown on diagram.

The right Image is for Pairs of all North Coils, in series...

Please, let me know if it is clear now.


OK, in Repulsion, Motor will consume more amperage than in Attraction Sam, and you could change from Repulse to Attract just by changing the firing order timing, in order that coils fire up (energize) closer to attract stator (South in your case) than repulse one (North)...remember our "Neutral Positioning" where Main Bisector is right in between both stators?...well just move the firing sequence a bit more towards attracting South...that is it.


Thanks for keeping your faith on this Machines, Kind Regards Friend.


Ufopolitics

EDIT: Could not reply directly to your post, so had to use New Post for it to work...

__________________
Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

Greetings:

At long last, after several hacks at winding ...... the P66 armature is ready to go to a 'Real' motor shop for tweaking and vacuum pressure impregnating.

I have two P56 motors waiting in the wings, and I may modify one of those. So, what is the 'final latest and greatest' winding config for the P56? (I have all those posts in my 'UFO motor notebook' somewhere, but would rather ask to see if there are any updates.)

Pics attached, and will post more pics when the armature come home for final assembly.

glen

Attached Images

	P66Motor 001.jpg (190.7 KB, 58 views)
	P66Motor 002.jpg (175.5 KB, 46 views)
	P66Motor 003.jpg (216.4 KB, 45 views)

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Glen, sweet looking rotors!

Redid my diagram as best I could, and this is how things came out. So I think to get a motor to rotate CW with this magnet arrangement, I need the + terminal at the rear and the windings to be mechanically wrapped CW, starting from the front comm element. Outer commutator ring would be the front of the motor.





I think I would prefer to have the front of the motor defined as the positive connection however. In that case the winding would start at bullet 1 and be CCW, and the geometry of starting the winding where the dark blue wire originates from the black dot on the outer comm changes, going to the other side of the line representing that specific sub-coil. In winding, I believe I must end up on the lightest blue single coil on top as the last coil wound. OK clear for me now I think...

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Up, Up and Away

5 coils completed (25%), get only 2 per day max so far. Looking OK so far regards to enough room, but should definitely fill up the rotor with copper. Using 5-filar wire, strands 30ga, 52.5', something greater than 1 ohm per coil, at 9.6'/ohm-strand. At seven subcoils per coil, I mark out each subcoil at 90" with a piece of tape and roll into the next subcoil when I hit the tape. In this picture, you can see how much wire is building up between the commutator and the rotor, which you can use to estimate if you are going to be able to complete the wind.



In this photo, you can see the 5-filar wire on the side. I guess I need to do a volume estimate of wire per rotor pole gap, as Prochiro has always recommended... Showing 1.1 ohm per coil on the meter.

__________________
Up, Up and Away

Excellent work Sam!!

Hoping to see it running soon!


Regards


Ufopolitics

__________________
Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

Hello Guys...I am still around...

Just a reminder of what an Imperial P56 N-S Pair Wind Coils could do at 12Volts, small battery...(WERKER WKDC1233 [12V/33Ah])...



IMPERIAL_RPMS_TEST_12V

And some clarification about "Coils"...in general, but basically applied to Asymm Motors performance.

A Single Coil projects a Magnetic Field at a specific Space/Time for its On period

A Pair of Coils in series is nothing more than a Single Coil's Magnetic Field spread-elongated over Space/Time which depends on the Circumference Area of core (# of elements involved) generating a wider Angle of Interaction than a Single Coil, unless that Single Coil is wrapped on the same # of elements as the Pair is...

A Group of Coils in series is also a Single Coil's Field spread-elongated over Space/Time... except, more compacted and longer area-angle could be achieved...therefore, higher RPM's...speed.

I really do not have the time to Graph this out in a simple "Linear" CAD over Time...but you guys could do it yourself as an exercise...

Regards to All.


Ufopolitics

__________________
Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

Been waiting years still hoping you will show your latest and greatest creation all my best wishes ufo ron. Hopefully you will blow my socks of lol

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I have ground to a halt on the motor as I am rebuilding and souping up my computer and backup systems. Just killed a motherboard bios so time is a factor. Meanwhile the tankless water heater needs refurbed and cleaned, new plumbing...

So on the baldor, I have run some numbers to estimate how full the rotor gaps will be with my 5-wire 30ga multi-filar. I have an idea of the actual rate of filling as I have 6 coils wound, 3ea on opposite sides. Fill-up rate looks like I will have good room, but my calculation came in less than 50% full. And this multi-filar looks like it comes in at an equivalent of only 23ga wire. Pretty light I think. The wire that came off the motor I measure at about .028" diam. or 21ga. This comes in at 78' per ohm. Looks like I should increase the number of wires to 7 or 8 or go with a heavier gauge altogether. It looks like my winding calculation is telling me I can make my wire that heavy, and each coil resulting in a big increase in length too. If you add a strand of 30ga, ends up you simply add another 10ft of coil length. So I got to rethink it, recalc it etc. to make sure. Winding of course has stopped.

Another thing is one coil subtends 12 poles and there are 7 sub-coils per coil. This leads to an unevenness in wrapping. So I think I will redesign to 10 poles per coil and 5 poles per subcoil making things nice and even for a 20 pole motor?


Ufo, would you have any concerns changing the wrapping style as such?

Regards,

Sampojo

PS: I ran the motor on the 6 coils and of course it went the opposite direction I thought it would!?!

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Up, Up and Away

Hey Sam,

Sorry for the time to respond, being very busy...

I particularly like the windings being as even as the # of rotor poles area/circumference versus Stator circumference relation allows, trying that they maintain a more or less equal measurements ...So, if that relation is pretty close by doing the 10-5 in your 20 poles rotor...I rather use that one.

On the resistance relation when using finer wire than OEM, remember that the higher the ohms per coil circuit, the more voltage it would be required but the lesser amperage it will draw, The start up will not be that strong as with lower resistance, and it will develop speed/torque at certain op time. So it depends on which application you will be using it for.

Hope this will help you...wanna see that Baldor running!!


Warm regards my friend!


Ufopolitics

__________________
Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

Ufo.....
Thank you for your dedicated focused release of this tech........I am always following in back ground and am astounded by all achieved so far.....
I have been collecting and compiling all of your threads into pdf format...problem is ....there is no relaese date......Yoy keep on writing new chapters!
Keep it up!
Oh...and congrats on the way you are handling this particular thread.........how did you get erfinder to be so plassid!......
I have replicated all so far....including your timeless motor.......but I have still to do the all north poled desighn......dumbass like me needs a lever to get my head arround the wiring diagram

The imperial motor has caused me to twice land in hospital from shear exilliration.........build myself a trike from scrap bycicles and power it with said motor.......
If it wasn't for this particular thread I would have been unemployed and on streets.....what can I say but a heartfelt thank you sir!


SALUTE COMPADRE!

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My pleasure Arch,

Very glad you are doing fine!

When you try the All North...is gonna be even more fun...so make sure you are prepared for it...


Kind regards friend


Ufopolitics

__________________
Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

Hi dadhave.....sorry for delayed answer......bit bussy these days......
Ill get som vids and fotos together showing what i do with converting bicycles into electric bicycles.....its easy though.....i use the threepoled desighn on a car radiator fan motor......realy strong torque there.....then i mount it onto a plate shaped to fit into frame of said bicycle.....this plate has two brackets fit to take two motorcycle baterys....one on each side......after that its real simple.....take front sprocket and mount it to motor......lengten the chain a bit and fit onto motor......basic motor speed controll and bobs your uncle!

Ill post some photos showing what i did as soon as i can.......

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Asymmetric pulse wheel-motor generator on a bicycle :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3_xvqR5QxA

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Hey Ufo,

Kinda ground to a halt when I realized I miscalculated my multifilar gauge needs, with 6 coils wrapped. I got the motor together to do a test spin and it went the wrong direction than planned. so I pulled in your post from p265. Just looking at the North pole, it looked like you had the right hand rule wrong. If you look at my post 7952 diagram this page, you can see I reversed it. This is blowing my mind. I pulled out my physics books and studied online and my diagram still seems to agree with the texts, but my motor is still going in the wrong direction and the coils are throwing a South pole not a North pole!!! So your diagram is still king!!

Was up till 5AM recently going over a wire recalculation. Looking at a bifilar 24ga wire now. I think it gets me to 21 ga by wire cross-sectional area, but equals the original 19 ga in conductor surface area. My calculations are showing this rotor can't hold enough wire to get to one ohm per coil using a wire that approximates the 19 ga in cross-section area. And I want to get over an ohm, about 1.1 or 1.2. Going to do a test wind on one rotor void area. A fully filled rotor void I have figured will take 270 to 320 strands of 24ga. Also going with a coil that subtends only 10 poles, not 12, with only 6 subcoils each subtending only 5 poles not 6.

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Up, Up and Away

Hey Sam!

I am glad you have realized the proper way to obtain the right magnetic polarities.

Sometimes, -if the structure of motor allows you to- by making either a Full 180º reversal of Stator's Housing, leaving brushes in the same place, this will reverse your rotation. Or the same reversal of rotation could be achieved by just rotating 180º the brushes caps, leaving stators in the same position...just two simple ways to reverse rotation by changing either the static plane or the brush plane.

Sorry about that!...now before you keep going, measure your brushes resistance per each vertical -in line- connection, remember brushes are in series related to each coil being energized, so they will add up, and sometimes they will get you over the 1 ohm resistance per interaction, if there is not much difference.


Kind Regards


Ufopolitics

__________________
Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci

Hi sam,

Your diagram of the right hand rule is correct as shown above. However the diagram on the right showing rotation is backwards. With the armature North pointed downward in the stator field pointed to the left*, rotation is CW.**

bi

After 2 edits. It must be that the armature North actually points upwards causing the actual rotation to be CCW.

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Hello Bistander,

I believe you are not interpreting the right diagram correctly...

The two Stator Polarizations (Red=South, Blue=North) are meaning to be pointing Inwards, towards rotor, (we are not reflecting the outwards pointing polarizations, since they do not take any direct role in the motor action) and not like you are understanding "stator field pointing to the right".

As the image that Sampojo modified from mine on left is NOT correct, related to the flow of currents (from positive to negative) it will generate a South Field that way, pointing out of screen...and not a North (he reversed the voltage polarities) so, on his motor drawing on right was going opposite than he planned because he wound a South instead of a North at rotor. (read his previous post again)

Regards


Ufopolitics

__________________
Principles for the Development of a Complete Mind: Study the science of art. Study the art of science. Develop your senses- especially learn how to see. Realize that everything connects to everything else.― Leonardo da Vinci