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#5011
07-02-2013, 10:00 PM
 GChilders Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 176
Arduino pwm duty cycles

Arduino PWM signals

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

I am not new to this thread but have not thought that I had anything to contribute being a fellow student of this technology. But I have a suggestion for Dana and Hitby3K and Sampojo. The pwm pins can have a duty cycle of 0 to 255. This is utilized by the fade program to fade the intensity of the leds. In order to use this effectively for motor control try turning off the leds after the wait period. This would enable you to use the full range of the duty cycle to increase the voltage at the base of the mosfets which will allow more voltage to go to the motor coils. This would increase the torque going to the motor when the gen head gets a larger load and slows the rpms down. If combined with a tachometer you could get automatic speed control by using a select case coupled with several loops that would increase the duty cycle from its current point by say 5 point increments and if the rpms drop below 3400 say 10 point increments . You would be able to determine the appropriate wait period and duty cycle for the load.
Here is a simple program that demonstrates the idea.

/*

This example shows how to fade an 4 LEDs on pins 6, 9, 10 and 11
using the analogWrite() function.

This example code is in the public domain.
*/
int blueLED = 11;
int greenLED=10;
int redLED = 9;
int yellowLED = 6; // the pin that the LED is attached to
int brightness = 0; // how bright the LED is
int fadeAmount = 5; // how many points to fade the LED by
int wait = 100;
// the setup routine runs once when you press reset:
void setup() {
// declare pins 6, 9, 10, 11 to be an output:
pinMode(blueLED, OUTPUT);
pinMode(greenLED, OUTPUT);
pinMode(yellowLED, OUTPUT);
pinMode(redLED, OUTPUT);
}

// the loop routine runs over and over again forever:
void loop() {
// set the brightness of pin 11:
analogWrite(blueLED, brightness);
// wait for milliseconds to see the dimming effect
delay(wait);
// turn off led
analogWrite(blueLED, 0);
// set the brightness of pin 10:
analogWrite(greenLED, brightness);
// wait for milliseconds to see the dimming effect
delay(wait);
// turn off led
analogWrite(greenLED, 0);;
// set the brightness of pin 9:
analogWrite(redLED, brightness);
// wait for milliseconds to see the dimming effect
delay(wait);
// turn off led
analogWrite(redLED, 0);
// set the brightness of pin 6:
analogWrite(yellowLED, brightness);
// wait for milliseconds to see the dimming effect
delay(wait);
// turn off led
analogWrite(yellowLED, 0);

// change the brightness for next time through the loop:

// reverse the direction of the fading at the ends of the fade:
if (brightness == 0 || brightness == 255) {
}
}

This program increases the intensity of the leds every 1/10 of a second or 100 milliseconds. it clearly demonstrates the on and off of each pin. If you want to see a more dramatic fade effect more quickly then reduce the wait period to 10 milliseconds.

Cheers,

Garry
__________________

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#5012
07-02-2013, 10:07 PM
 Cornboy 555 Silver Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 803
Big'n.

WOW, Machine, that's a big one you got there, are you talking a generator or a motor?

Regards Cornboy.
__________________

#5013
07-03-2013, 12:12 AM
 machinealive Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 494
Hey Cornboy,

I am really thinking about that generator, actually can't stop thinking about it, and using the imperial to run it. It's just so big and heavy, I would have to flip it upright, I think, spin it from above, and secure rotor from bottom, maybe UFO will have some ideas .

Maybe I'll make a rotor to spin and a Figuera generator core that I can switch.
This time I am going to think about how to match coils, stators and rotors, 1:1/4, 1:1, etc. Any ideas? What are you going to do with Mags?

I think I may have to mod the other imperial housing, that the asymmetrical generator is in, remove permanent magnets, and install 4 wound stators. Cornboy, I am so envious of your motor, and you're doing such a wicked job building it. I think, I would like to compare the two imperials, with different stators, to see just how big a difference there is. But just thinking about it, having all the motor coils and generator coils working together, communicating, ya just know its gonna be insane.

Edit maybe I could use the imperial magnets for the inner stationary field, for the generator.
Machine
__________________

Last edited by machinealive; 07-03-2013 at 12:17 AM.
#5014
07-03-2013, 12:54 AM
 prochiro Silver Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 670
@ Garry
Welcome to the posting part of this adventure.
It is vary good that your getting to know the Arduino world. It seems that you are grasping some of the complexity but not all. Let me explain. The program you have created is in fact good for what it does but can not control the Imperial with 60 volts and possibly 40 amps at times. Further, by dimming the arduino, Monster circuit will not operate correctly and too much (Delay) at every turn. What I am doing with my setup is this. I am using two Arduino's that have at least two internal serial ports, (Serial and Serial1), On the slave Arduino, we have the pulsing code that controls the Monster circuit as I have done in the past. I need to control the Imperial RPM automatically during loading and unloading.This will not work with even one interrupt in the Arduino that does the actual pulsing so we will not have one. How this is done is using the second Serial port in the slave to only receive two bites which represent the desired duty cycle to our motor. This controls the volts and amps time on to control speed.
Now, as that is all that is done in the slave. The Master Arduino however has much more work to do.It can do much more as it is not in the timed pulsing event as the slave is. The master can read RPM as well as many other things from the Imperial and its related events. The most important thing that the Master does is read the RPM and adjust the duty cycle in a similar way as you have in your program. In the Master is code that is called PID. It will adjust the duty cycle as needed to stay at 3600 RPM no matter what happens. It is custom controlled to be mild or aggressive as you can adjust everything on the fly thru an executable program on any computer. It looks like a control panel in a jet. Every bit of information is available in true time on the panel as well as several other controls which operate the Imperial. Both this control program and the Master Arduino can take there sweet time doing what ever you tell them to do and one other important thing, simply shoot a new duty cycle number to the Slave only when it is necessary to change it. The Slave is free of everything but doing what it has done in past programs. There is much programming but yet much more testing other methods of doing the code and getting the best and most professional system I can. I have spent a hundred hours or more just checking out alternate methods. It would be nice here to have another person to help with many things in this control system.
Thank You
Dana
__________________
"Today's scientist have substituted mathematics for experiments and they wander off through equation after equation and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."
Nikola Tesla
#5015
07-03-2013, 01:31 AM
 Cornboy 555 Silver Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 803
Thanks DANA.

Thanks DANA, for all your hard work, on the electronic side of things here.

I am sure i speak for all, when i say that it is very much appreciated.

Just havn't worked out how to get truckloads of Garlic to anyone Yet.

Warm Regards Cornboy.
__________________

#5016
07-03-2013, 01:49 AM
 Cornboy 555 Silver Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 803
Low drag.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by machinealive Hey Cornboy, I am really thinking about that generator, actually can't stop thinking about it, and using the imperial to run it. It's just so big and heavy, I would have to flip it upright, I think, spin it from above, and secure rotor from bottom, maybe UFO will have some ideas . Maybe I'll make a rotor to spin and a Figuera generator core that I can switch. This time I am going to think about how to match coils, stators and rotors, 1:1/4, 1:1, etc. Any ideas? What are you going to do with Mags? I think I may have to mod the other imperial housing, that the asymmetrical generator is in, remove permanent magnets, and install 4 wound stators. Cornboy, I am so envious of your motor, and you're doing such a wicked job building it. I think, I would like to compare the two imperials, with different stators, to see just how big a difference there is. But just thinking about it, having all the motor coils and generator coils working together, communicating, ya just know its gonna be insane. Edit maybe I could use the imperial magnets for the inner stationary field, for the generator. Machine

Hello Machine, The Figuera generator, with UFO's design input, could be a winner, built from scratch, to fit inside a motor housing, direct connected to motor shaft, and same pulses from motor stators, or back pulses, exciting the generator.

I will build a small 4" model to test when i have the MAG3 finished, but technically, i am sure that an imperial could drive a large version of this low drag design. The biggest challenge is the air core rotor has to be non metallic.

I am almost finished my urgent farm work and will soon be spending 6 hrs a day on MAG3, till spinning.

Warm Regards Cornboy.
__________________

#5017
07-03-2013, 01:58 AM
 Ufopolitics Platinum Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: US, Florida Posts: 4,999
Nice Generator!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by machinealive Hey Cornboy, I am really thinking about that generator, actually can't stop thinking about it, and using the imperial to run it. It's just so big and heavy, I would have to flip it upright, I think, spin it from above, and secure rotor from bottom, maybe UFO will have some ideas . Maybe I'll make a rotor to spin and a Figuera generator core that I can switch. This time I am going to think about how to match coils, stators and rotors, 1:1/4, 1:1, etc. Any ideas? What are you going to do with Mags? I think I may have to mod the other imperial housing, that the asymmetrical generator is in, remove permanent magnets, and install 4 wound stators. Cornboy, I am so envious of your motor, and you're doing such a wicked job building it. I think, I would like to compare the two imperials, with different stators, to see just how big a difference there is. But just thinking about it, having all the motor coils and generator coils working together, communicating, ya just know its gonna be insane. Edit maybe I could use the imperial magnets for the inner stationary field, for the generator. Machine
Hello Machine, Hello to All,

Machine that is a "Massive" Steel "conglomerate" my friend!...I notice there are "solid steel" Poles...not laminated...or am I wrong?...maybe picture does not shows because of rust...

I am guessing you will send it to be Sandblasted with a heavy pressure machine...

Related to running it with an Imperial...remember there must be a certain weight balance or similar mass weight, between both machines rotors...

Now, what I would do...is what you wrote in the second paragraph above...A Figuera's Generator!...

Any "Divisible by Four" BIG Motor Armature (like a Big Twelve, Twenty Four or even a Twenty Poles) could be fitted within those Monster Stators...Leaving enough air gap...as to make a "Steel-Less" Generating Fields Rotor / Figuera's Style...to spin between them...

BUT...WTF!?....YOUR IMPERIAL ROTOR is a 28 Poles!!...and if you divide by four would have Seven Nice and tight Four Poles...geez!, I have been away for too long...

Please fit inside your Imperial Asymmetrical Generator Armature and take a picture (I do not want you to take apart your newly wound Beast!...) ...and let's see how it goes...I have no idea of that gap.

Then...Your Imperial would be able to spin it "Laughing Out Loud"...

Regards

Ufopolitics
__________________

#5018
07-03-2013, 02:14 AM
 Ufopolitics Platinum Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: US, Florida Posts: 4,999
Great NEWS!!

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Cornboy 555 Hello Machine, The Figuera generator, with UFO's design input, could be a winner, built from scratch, to fit inside a motor housing, direct connected to motor shaft, and same pulses from motor stators, or back pulses, exciting the generator. I will build a small 4" model to test when i have the MAG3 finished, but technically, i am sure that an imperial could drive a large version of this low drag design. The biggest challenge is the air core rotor has to be non metallic. I am almost finished my urgent farm work and will soon be spending 6 hrs a day on MAG3, till spinning. Warm Regards Cornboy.

Hello Cornboy!

Those are grrreat news!...I have even dreamed about seen the MAG3 Spinning...!!...

I am VERY sure Machine would be able to "mold" or lathe or whatever... a very nice "Metal-Less" Rotor from scratch...remember NOT Aluminum either!

I have been thinking about carbon fiber...will kill Radiant Spikes...but not hot...not sure though...

I have been thinking about Figuera's Generator (the Dynamic One)...and applying the Pulsing with Monster's and Dana's arrangement and codes...BUT...

If We do that...and in order to GAIN a "simulated or fooling" a super hyper magnetic field changes...will have to do the following:

According to the "Physical Shaft Rotation", say would be CW...on Generator...then, the Gates Sequences would have to be "Opposite" to CW...or CCW.

Got It??

If we do BOTH AT SAME ROTATION SENSE...then "The "Relative Speed" between Rotor and Pulses would be VERY SLOW...to the point of getting even...simulating a "Stand Still" even going at 10,000 RPM's...

However, IF We do opposite rotations...the "Relative Speed" between spinning rotor and pulsing sequences will Amplify...

Correct me Guys, if I am wrong...I could always be...even not being Human...

Regards

Ufopolitics
__________________

#5019
07-03-2013, 02:35 AM
 Ufopolitics Platinum Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: US, Florida Posts: 4,999
Amazing Dedication...Excellent Work!

Quote:

Dana...

And the more I am glad...that you stayed with Us all, in those moments where you were having trouble on this Forum...

For some reason (completely unknown) I had a "Gut or GOD Feeling"...(A Feeling from deep inside of Me) that I would need you here with all of Us...

At the same token...and I am pretty sure You know that...ALL YOUR WORK HERE...would be required...not only to move Imperial Versus Mecc Alte or any other Symmetric and ridiculous Generator Head...

I will need your work to FLY our future prototypes, from the R/C Models to the Real Size to carry Passengers...with an exactitude so precise...that there would not be ANY chances of failure at all.

And, of course...applicable also to Terrestrial EV Propulsion...

And future "Fusion" of Figuera's Generators...coupled with our Asymmetrical Machines...

Clear and very stable Network Communication Protocols you are creating here...my dear friend...between Machine and Human Interface, Automation, Logic Controls, etc,etc...through advanced Cybernetics...

Robotics...

I could keep on going...and going,... on so many more "future applications" my friend...that I could make this post "endless"...

Very Warm Regards Dear Friend!

And many, many thanks for your GREAT Dedication!!

I am sure..."one day"...it "will pay back" to You...in so huge amounts of Happiness...that there would NOT BE, ANY "Legal Tender Notes" that could buy them out...

Ufopolitics
__________________

Last edited by Ufopolitics; 07-03-2013 at 02:42 AM.
#5020
07-03-2013, 02:56 AM
 Cornboy 555 Silver Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 803
The Dream.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ufopolitics Hello Cornboy! Those are grrreat news!...I have even dreamed about seen the MAG3 Spinning...!!... Your guess was identical to my thoughts about Machine's Huge Generator...amazing! I am VERY sure Machine would be able to "mold" or lathe or whatever... a very nice "Metal-Less" Rotor from scratch...remember NOT Aluminum either! I have been thinking about carbon fiber...will kill Radiant Spikes...but not hot...not sure though... I have been thinking about Figuera's Generator (the Dynamic One)...and applying the Pulsing with Monster's and Dana's arrangement and codes...BUT... If We do that...and in order to GAIN a "simulated or fooling" a super hyper magnetic field changes...will have to do the following: According to the "Physical Shaft Rotation", say would be CW...on Generator...then, the Gates Sequences would have to be "Opposite" to CW...or CCW. Got It?? If we do BOTH AT SAME ROTATION SENSE...then "The "Relative Speed" between Rotor and Pulses would be VERY SLOW...to the point of getting even...simulating a "Stand Still" even going at 10,000 RPM's... However, IF We do opposite rotations...the "Relative Speed" between spinning rotor and pulsing sequences will Amplify... Correct me Guys, if I am wrong...I could always be...even not being Human... Regards Ufopolitics

Yes, i have dreamed about it too UFO, and also the next build with larger DIA rotor, like pancake, about 450mm dia and 200mm long, still 36 pole, with heaps of room on outer rotor circumference, to wind coils that are all close to stator copper wire, and stators with very thin outer faces, also heaps of room in rotor to imbed high voltage capicitors, into central rotor core.

And of course, your design of counterweight, internally fitted, in motor housing, housing could be fabricated 15mm alluminium, hex shape.

Oh yeh, and a low drag generator on the same shaft, all completly contained in one housing.

Just dreaming at this point, i am sure the dream will be modified when you feel the time is right.

Warm Regards UFO, and glad you are here, Cornboy.
__________________

#5021
07-03-2013, 03:32 AM
 Ufopolitics Platinum Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: US, Florida Posts: 4,999
Dreams become Reality...:)

Cornboy,

Dreams become reality my friend, you know that...

My "Dream" was not related to Energy (it just "came" to me...like I have posted before)...but to build a very stable, flying craft...that would NOT resemble ANY of the existing ones... so far...in our entire history...all this...was "once"... just a dream...

I believe Humanity needs to "brake frontiers"...first, "locally" ...then..."Globally" or flying freely...between our own planet...

Airport\$ Custom\$...Toll\$...Street\$, Highway\$, Expre\$\$way\$...Limitation\$ would be COMPLETELY destroyed...gone...history...

We need that in order to reach Higher Civilization Levels...as much as we need Free Energy Devices.

As it ALSO would have to be "Open Sourced"...as you will understand it is "also" a "National Security Treat"...

Imagine you could "Fly" your Load of Garlic ANYWHERE...and ANY Weight you Want...

Possible?

Yes, and being as serious, as a Heart Attack.

I will eventually display to you all the "Counterweights Engine Design"...however, I see it like the making/constructing/training of another "Super Heavier Weight Fighter"...for a "Fight" that is about to be finished very soon...my friend...hope you understand what I mean.

Regards

Ufopolitics
__________________

#5022
07-03-2013, 03:42 AM
 GChilders Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 176
Dana,

I am aware of the simplistic nature of this program. It was designed to illustrate a point much like the program quad blink on post 4514, and in reference to a post you made to hitby13kw on post 4524 calling him a silly boy because you could not possibly have more than 25% duty cycle. the truth is the duty cycle can be more than 25% for the time period allotted whether that be 100 milliseconds or 2 milliseconds. This program as all of the arduino examples only serve as an introduction to a salient point. It is very simple to determine the wait period based on the target rpm and adjust the duty cycle up or down to bring it back into the target range. Obviously if there is no need of the adjustment it is not made. Perhaps you have changed your position since these two posts. It was very early in your exploration of Arduino. I would like to see a more recent example of the program that you are designing, and if I can be of assistance to help in coding it. I have many thousands of hours of programming experience and would be happy to help.

Cheers,

Garry
__________________

#5023
07-03-2013, 03:54 AM
 machinealive Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 494
Hey UFO,

I think the imperial rotor would be too small, to use as the inner stator, for the Figuera gen. Here is pic of an aluminum tube the same size as the imperial housing.

The big stator poles are laminated. I'm gonna get it sandblasted and painted, John Deere green .

Maybe, for the Figuera gen, I'll build the inner stator with oak.. Just 4 poles to match outer stator.

@Dana, if I only knew how to help you, except to get my driver setup going. Thank you for your effort, you're doing a great job.
__________________

#5024
07-03-2013, 04:37 AM
 prochiro Silver Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 670
Hi Garry

I guess I do not understand you can have more than 25 percent duty. The total possible is 100, divided into four parts which is 25 percent each and UFO's requirement of no overlap so Amps stay down. If at any time there is an actual condition where any two of the four are on at the same time, Amps go high as well as spikes back. The only case where I could see that an overlap would be maybe useful is for higher power transfer for boosting but this has a vary high cost at input.
However, if an overlap was desired for boosting, do you know of an easy way to do this without a lot of fractionating of high and low timing?
I would like to have ideas and help. Maybe you could write a quick outline of how you would do this and then we have even more choices.
My outline is more or less what I described in the above post. I am still not settled upon fastest and safest method to tx rx. I2C is unsafe even when adding caps( it only takes and stop to crash). I have not tried the latest more expensive accessories yet but the cheap ones are slow and junk. What would you use.
Dana
__________________
"Today's scientist have substituted mathematics for experiments and they wander off through equation after equation and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."
Nikola Tesla
#5025
07-03-2013, 04:39 AM
 Cornboy 555 Silver Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 803
Red.

Hey Machine, why don't you paint it TORO red? much better!!.

I am sure the inner exciter will need to be metal, for heavy flux transfer. With a large dia structure like you have there the sandwiched drum could probably be stretched to about 15mm thick, maybe?, no one really knows yet.

I am hoping the drum could be made from Delrin, if heat isn't a problem.

All the Best, Cornboy.
__________________

#5026
07-03-2013, 05:19 AM
 Ufopolitics Platinum Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: US, Florida Posts: 4,999
More Hints...

@Machine:

Here Mr Machine Alive...some more "Hints" to fly...so you could "relax" a bit... from heavy steel machines...

[IMG][/IMG]

Regards Friend

Ufopolitics
__________________

#5027
07-03-2013, 05:27 AM
 Ufopolitics Platinum Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: US, Florida Posts: 4,999
Cornboy is right...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by machinealive Hey UFO, I think the imperial rotor would be too small, to use as the inner stator, for the Figuera gen. Here is pic of an aluminum tube the same size as the imperial housing. The big stator poles are laminated. I'm gonna get it sandblasted and painted, John Deere green . Maybe, for the Figuera gen, I'll build the inner stator with oak.. Just 4 poles to match outer stator. @Dana, if I only knew how to help you, except to get my driver setup going. Thank you for your effort, you're doing a great job.
Hello Friend,

Cornboy is right...the Inner Exciters core MUST BE made out of steel...and equal/same Area of front of Poles to the outers, as center cores volume (where you wrap the coils)...otherwise the HOT Magnetic Fields/Flux will be uneven...therefore, not good Induction/Output. Remember we are dealing here with Hot, not Radiant...

Regards

Ufopolitics
__________________

#5028
07-03-2013, 05:32 AM
 Cornboy 555 Silver Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 803
Exciting.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ufopolitics Cornboy, Dreams become reality my friend, you know that... My "Dream" was not related to Energy (it just "came" to me...like I have posted before)...but to build a very stable, flying craft...that would NOT resemble ANY of the existing ones... so far...in our entire history...all this...was "once"... just a dream... I believe Humanity needs to "brake frontiers"...first, "locally" ...then..."Globally" or flying freely...between our own planet... Airport\$ Custom\$...Toll\$...Street\$, Highway\$, Expre\$\$way\$...Limitation\$ would be COMPLETELY destroyed...gone...history... We need that in order to reach Higher Civilization Levels...as much as we need Free Energy Devices. As it ALSO would have to be "Open Sourced"...as you will understand it is "also" a "National Security Treat"... Imagine you could "Fly" your Load of Garlic ANYWHERE...and ANY Weight you Want... Possible? Yes, and being as serious, as a Heart Attack. I will eventually display to you all the "Counterweights Engine Design"...however, I see it like the making/constructing/training of another "Super Heavier Weight Fighter"...for a "Fight" that is about to be finished very soon...my friend...hope you understand what I mean. Regards Ufopolitics

Thanks UFO, i am not quite sure what you mean, but i eagerly await, your new designs, as you probably know by now, i like to plan ahead, with building from scratch,it can take some time to get quotes etc.

I need to do some modification to the commutators of the MAG3, and that finishes all the structual embodiment work, ready to finish the epoxy build up removal, from the rotor, and then wind the rotor.

After that, it's wind the stators, and i will draw some alternatives and post them for your advice, before i start them, if you don't mind.

Lots a work, but Exciting as well.

Warm Regards Cornboy.
__________________

#5029
07-03-2013, 05:59 AM
 GChilders Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 176
Dana,

There is no overlap in the program that I posted. If you examine it you will see that in the time period that each led is on or each pin is active that the value for the duty cycle is incremented up or down by 5 points each time it goes through the loop. The effect this has on the leds is that they will get brighter until they reach the maximum brightness and then they will dim until they do not have enough voltage to light up. After the wait period at which they exhibit a duty cycle of 0 to 255 in other words nothing to 100%, they are shut off on the line analogWrite(blueLED, 0); thus they do not conflict with each other. This pin is off while the other three are operating. But while the pin is on the pulse wave can have a different intensity based on the setting of 0 to 255. This is why the leds get brighter as the numbers grow larger. You need to separate in your mind the duty cycle frequency from the frequency of the machine. The frequency of the machine has 4 on periods in every rotation. Within that on period the frequency of the duty cycle can vary from 0 to 255 giving a much stronger response or weaker response if necessary to back off the rpms. Look Dana I respect everything you are doing and I love the work being done on these two threads. I have built two replications and am working on my third. I only recently purchase the Arduinos that I have. So I am by no means an expert on all the things that the arduino can do. I know that all of the programming for the Arduino comes from C++ language. That I am well versed in. I have gone through many tutorials on line as I imagine you have also. I believe knowledge is power, but only if the foundation is correct. I certainly don't mean to insult any one or be derogatory. I know everyone here is making honest efforts to find the truth, and I believe we will.

Cheers,

Garry
__________________

#5030
07-03-2013, 08:11 AM
 Ufopolitics Platinum Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: US, Florida Posts: 4,999
Misunderstandings...and Solutions.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by prochiro Hi Garry I guess I do not understand you can have more than 25 percent duty. The total possible is 100, divided into four parts which is 25 percent each and UFO's requirement of no overlap so Amps stay down. If at any time there is an actual condition where any two of the four are on at the same time, Amps go high as well as spikes back. The only case where I could see that an overlap would be maybe useful is for higher power transfer for boosting but this has a vary high cost at input. However, if an overlap was desired for boosting, do you know of an easy way to do this without a lot of fractionating of high and low timing? I would like to have ideas and help. Maybe you could write a quick outline of how you would do this and then we have even more choices. My outline is more or less what I described in the above post. I am still not settled upon fastest and safest method to tx rx. I2C is unsafe even when adding caps( it only takes and stop to crash). I have not tried the latest more expensive accessories yet but the cheap ones are slow and junk. What would you use. Dana

Quote:
 Dana, There is no overlap in the program that I posted. If you examine it you will see that in the time period that each led is on or each pin is active that the value for the duty cycle is incremented up or down by 5 points each time it goes through the loop. The effect this has on the leds is that they will get brighter until they reach the maximum brightness and then they will dim until they do not have enough voltage to light up. After the wait period at which they exhibit a duty cycle of 0 to 255 in other words nothing to 100%, they are shut off on the line analogWrite(blueLED, 0); thus they do not conflict with each other. This pin is off while the other three are operating. But while the pin is on the pulse wave can have a different intensity based on the setting of 0 to 255. This is why the leds get brighter as the numbers grow larger. You need to separate in your mind the duty cycle frequency from the frequency of the machine. The frequency of the machine has 4 on periods in every rotation. Within that on period the frequency of the duty cycle can vary from 0 to 255 giving a much stronger response or weaker response if necessary to back off the rpms. Look Dana I respect everything you are doing and I love the work being done on these two threads. I have built two replications and am working on my third. I only recently purchase the Arduinos that I have. So I am by no means an expert on all the things that the arduino can do. I know that all of the programming for the Arduino comes from C++ language. That I am well versed in. I have gone through many tutorials on line as I imagine you have also. I believe knowledge is power, but only if the foundation is correct. I certainly don't mean to insult any one or be derogatory. I know everyone here is making honest efforts to find the truth, and I believe we will. Cheers, Garry
Hello and Welcome Garry!

We really appreciate someone like you contributing here on the Programming Codes, as also on Controllers Data.

For sure We will be open for new Input/Opinions Contributions!

Now, related to Quad Signals for Asymmetrical Controllers...some things you must realize:

1-We are using Arduino to Emit ONE SAME Signal, but spread through Time and "Mirrored" into Four. (We could do it on Two, or Six...but for Imperial is Four (4))
2- What can NOT overlap is the On Times between "mirrored" Gate Signals.

Hello Dana!

I believe I know where some of this misunderstanding could be...

Dana, in your post above, you are completely right, and I do NOT want Individual Channels signals to Overlap through Time...BUT, relating strictly to On Times.

However, I believe it is my fault, because I have displayed the Graphics to this Signals in a LINEAR FASHION , like on Diagram on bottom left:

[IMG][/IMG]

And of course, that is exactly the way that an Oscilloscope would display them on a Two Dimension (Time X Signal Width/Height) on a Flat Line screen...Then Your Calculations on dividing the Duty Cycle (Based on "Time On") in Four (Four Gates/Four Channels) will result in NO MORE than 25% Duty per Signal.

However, if you look at the Way they manifest/enter at Machine's Gates...then notice it is quite different.

At Machine they enter in a Radial/Curved Input, not Linear, therefore, here it is based on Angles of Duration, and NOT on straight/linear divisions.

Since We are "Injecting" Signal on the outer perimeter related to the Commutator at contact with respective Four Brushes...then We could have more than just 25% of duty cycle there.

Let me see if I could explain better:

Four Brushes/Gates are exactly located every 90º APART from each others. Therefore, even if you see on Scope they are "almost" overlapping ...in reality, at Machine they are NOT...

At Machine the Time is "Curved" not Linear, related to Signals Input, therefore, this curvature "stretches" time, allowing more percentage of Duty Cycle than 25%.

Look at Diagram below:

[IMG][/IMG]

Now, compare the two Dimensions shown by Arrows, Curved and Linear...which one is longer in Time?

Also Dana...remember We are using the SAME SIGNAL...for example in the Linear Diagram I have shown above...I am displaying approximately a 50% Duty for that Signal...and still they do not overlap/Intersect their times on. When you increase duty...remember they will "stretch" but EVENLY towards rotation sense (forward)...so still will not overlap unless is at 100%...

What does get "fractionated" here... in approx 1/4 , is our Amperage...

I hope this explanation would "clear" any misunderstandings...

It would be simple to verify this for you Dana...since you have the complete Set Up already running perfectly.

Get the Signals to go above "Your Linear" 25% On...and check if amperage will rise...keep doing it until there is amp increase ...then look at your Scope Signals...'

Actually, what does NOT ALLOWS for Signals to EVER Overlap, is the Established Dead/Off Times between them (and by the way, Off Times are ALSO the SAME Time amount for all Channels)..when Off Times between signals equals Zero, then, they start overlapping from there on...

My BIG question is:

Can we Adjust the Off/Dead Times Duration (And I am NOT referring to the Off Times at Signal)Independently from Duty/Frequency on Signal, just producing it as a "Delay-Duration Time Parameter" to "trigger" next signal?

If We could achieve this...then, this parameter would be the Main Speed/Torque Controller....Duty Cycle could be whatever percentage...and still...amperage would reduce like so far Dana have achieved and maybe more than that.

Regards

Ufopolitics
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Last edited by Ufopolitics; 07-03-2013 at 08:40 AM.
#5031
07-03-2013, 12:49 PM
 Midaztouch Silver Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Japan for 2yrs Posts: 546
Imperial Motor came!

Hello All!

I'm glad to see that everyone is in Good Spirits and the Team bond is growing stronger.

My motor came today! I'm so excited. I want to open the box right now but I have to wait. My place is one open room style. I have small children and they get into everything and anything!!! I have to wait for the motorcycle shop to clear a space for me, our motor and my bike.

I showed the shop Engineers the pics and vids of the Imperial running.(good job Dana). The shop owner call the boss of Mugen directly on his personal phone immediately! Mugen is the company that made the electric racing motorcycle, The Shinden Ni, for Honda. They talked for 20 minutes about the Imperial's 2 commutators and the Amps dropping to the floor. After the shop owner got off the phone, he said, "Lets build it." I went from having to wait until the end of August to get space, to this month!

Thank you UFO and guys! I will try my best

Keep it Clean and Green
Richie
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#5032
07-03-2013, 02:22 PM
 Turion Platinum Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,891
Cornboy,

Every time you mention garlic I wonder if you are from Gilroy, which is only 30 minutes from me.

Dave
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"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
#5033
07-03-2013, 04:36 PM
 prochiro Silver Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 670
analogWrite

Hi Garry
I an really trying hard to see how the analogWrite() could be utilized but still see that it can not be used as it forces a frequency of 490. This is way beyond the 30 Hz the Imperial is comfortable at. If I raise the Hz to 32, she drags down as also at 26Hz. Also at higher Hz, we have to deal with more backfire which is what Machine ran into. I will continue to work to understand this better yet with maybe a setup on the Imperial this weekend and let her decide of she likes it or not. Thanks Garry
Dana
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"Today's scientist have substituted mathematics for experiments and they wander off through equation after equation and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."
Nikola Tesla
#5034
07-03-2013, 04:45 PM
 GChilders Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 176
This tutorial explains the way the Arduino pwm works far better than I can.

Arduino - PWM

You are almost there UFOPolitics. But because the Arduino operates at 500 hz and the pwm signal is the inverse of Arduino the time period may have many square wave signals in a given time period. This breaks down to a cycle every 2 milliseconds. Well I have work to do and this discussion has been beat to death.

Cheers,

Garry
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#5035
07-03-2013, 07:39 PM
 JohnStone Gold Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Global Village Posts: 1,094
Hi friends,
back again from vacation and trying to catch up the stuff. Unfortunately the health of my wife is getting worse - hence less time left :-) for free energy.
I am so sorry you experience smoking FETs. Feel free to ask questions. I want you to solve your problems!
JS
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Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.
#5036
07-03-2013, 08:48 PM
 machinealive Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 494
UFO

I got my parts today, so hopefully, I'll get at the drivers this week. I'll post on the other thread, until I get something working.

UFO or Cornboy

This is the last time I'll post here, about the Figuera generator, unless you want me to post here, but I have couple questions. So, I have a big 4 pole for outer stator. We are not sure how big of space we can allow for middle rotor, which we can spin or not, but I will spin, the dynamic version. Cornboy you mentioned 15 mm maybe. Then we have our inner coils.
Now my questions,
1. The inner coils are also stationary, or do they spin with middle section(rotor)? I thought they were stationary, and only middle section spins.
2. How many coils should the rotor have,middle section.
3. If I make the same 4 poles for inner section, with exact same size coils that is in the outer stator, what should the length of middle coils be, 1:1/4 with 4 x diameter of stator coils?

The stator coils will be huge, maybe we could go 2-3" for air gap.

Johnstone

Hope you had a nice trip, glad you're back. If my drivers still don't work, I'm going to make a vid of the drivers switching lamps, with scope at gate, and source and drain, maybe you could analyze. I don't want to bug Dana, as he is already very busy. I re-did the grounds, lets see what she'll do.

Machine
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#5037
07-03-2013, 08:59 PM
 JohnStone Gold Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Global Village Posts: 1,094
Hi Garry,
welcome as contributor!

FYI: My coding experience ended long ago but I often discuss with SW engineers the architecture of new programming approaches - hence I am no redneck in these matters.

I studied Arduino properties intensively and vote that there is no elegant and easy way to use PWM functions in order to get precise signals - UFO type.

The reqirements are:
• variable frequency,
• variable duty cycle,
• scalable 4/6 phase signals,
• precise timing.

My notions:
• In order to face those requirements I feel we need to leave those predefined functions like PWM.
• Pulse generation is time critical - all other functions NOT.

Pulse generation step 1 - timing:
• For 4 phases we need 8 values each representing the high time and low time of each phase signal (12 values for 6 phase - dedicated to MAG3 in AU/Cornboy).
• On initialisation the timer will be loaded with the first value (16 bit timer if you decide to).
• On timer expiration it generates a high level interrupt. Within the Interrupt routine the timer will be relodaed with the next value out of the array.
• At end of array it will reset the pointer to the beginning of the array.
• There is absolutely no drawback if we use 4 or 6 phases.
• Thus we get a predefined and very pricise but still variable heart beat.
• The timer vaues will be calculated and modified by a low prority function. I admit the calculation of array values is a certain effort - but does not affect real time pulse generatrion.

Pulse generation step 2 - output ports
• The patterns for output ports will be stored in the array as well. We extend the array by adding after any timer value a bitmap for output ports (byte)
• At any timer interrupt the next pattern will be output to the corresponding port (byte).
• There is absolutely no drawback if we use 4 or 6 phases (we can extend to 8!)
• The output patterns are fixed values and will never be changed.

Pulse generation step 3 - enhancements
• If we are short on port pins we can add an additional mask value into the array. A simple bool calcualtion will read the port values, mask the phase pins out and add by OR function the intended 4 or 6 bit pattern.
• Alternatively those bits of the byte being not phase pins can be used as inputs. In thiscase we do not need any masking.

Value change /frequency / duty cycle
As I mentioned above the change of values is not critical in time. Hence the change can be calculated for new timer values and stored in the array. The calculation routine can be lowest priority level.
There is essential to synchronise value changes with interrupt routine in order to prevent transient and unsolicited port jam. I imagine to use 2 arrays and swap the pointers after value any change anly - controlled / synchronized in the interrupt routine

Governor
There is an official PID governer library available for Arduino. I studied the implications coverd and detected that the major code is for delaying with faults and exceptions - some problems I never heared before. Hence: Using this lib could be a direct and genuine approach with less head ash.
For first steps the I and D component can be canceled completely in order not jump in deep and troubled waters with initial control of the setup.
I am quite sure the phase control and governor function can be performed with one single Arduino!

Data transfer
I strongly vote to implement a serial / USB link to PC or other Ardunino in order to prevent the pulse generator from overload.
BTW: For convenience Arduino can be equipped with BlueTooth / COM I/F (spend some few bucks at eBay) in order to prevent any direct electric connection to PC or other Arduino.

My program attempt
Some month ago I wrote a program for pulse generation like mentioned above but experienced some flaws with serial link and pointer control. I am not able to debug it by myself.
There is control from PC for frequency and duty cycle in that program.
On request I can forward my Arduino program but beware! it is horrible coding style. It was mixed up of different Arduino examples.

Dashboard
Dashboarding is a special implication and can easily be done by a PC including storing of Data to charts and files, calculationg and displaying any form of gauges. Good news: There is no PC programming required. I own i.e. the program ProfilabExpert Consult the link in order to see the wonderful dashboards (scroll down). It runs with Ardunio as well and I got it running in my lab. Within minutes any individual dashboard will be available.
Once you have a running serial link I would be willing to supply a dashboard for PC on request.

The facts above would be my plot and suggestion for controlling UFO setups. It was tuned for lowest processor load and optimize scalability.

rgds JS
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Last edited by JohnStone; 07-03-2013 at 09:19 PM.
#5038
07-03-2013, 09:04 PM
 JohnStone Gold Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Global Village Posts: 1,094
Quote:
 Originally Posted by machinealive ... Johnstone Hope you had a nice trip, glad you're back. If my drivers still don't work, I'm going to make a vid of the drivers switching lamps, with scope at gate, and source and drain, maybe you could analyze. I don't want to bug Dana, as he is already very busy. I re-did the grounds, lets see what she'll do. Machine
Thanks - exciting trip!!

You are welcome!

If lamp switching is OK then next step should be connecting motor windings and bulbs in series for test purpose. No direct jump in troubled waters!
JS
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Experts spend hours a day in order to question their doing while others stopped thinking feeling they were professionals.
#5039
07-03-2013, 09:18 PM
 Cornboy 555 Silver Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 803
Underneath.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion Cornboy, Every time you mention garlic I wonder if you are from Gilroy, which is only 30 minutes from me. Dave

Hello Dave, if you mean Gilroy California, no, i live down under, or if the poles swap, then up above Ya.

I live on almost the same latitude as UFO, in the beautiful Byron Bay hinterland on east coast of Australia.

I have a 90 acre mixed Bio-Dynamic farm, that i make a living from, and speaking of Garlic, i will have to plant an extra couple of rows every year, to keep building UFO designed motors, until i reach my goal of a heavy duty traction motor suitable for all kinds of EV applications.

Warm Regards Cornboy.
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#5040
07-03-2013, 09:29 PM
 Cornboy 555 Silver Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 803
Welcome JS.

Welcome back John Stone, great to have your input here again friend.

Sorry to here about your wife, i wish you all the very best of luck.

Warmest Regards Cornboy.
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