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  #31  
Old 07-16-2012, 07:26 PM
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pages 108-145 of the book (page 131 of the pdf)
Article is titled "contributions to electricity and magnetism no III 0n electro - dynamic induction."

Cheers
Nat
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  #32  
Old 07-16-2012, 08:18 PM
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Just in case you miss it. Pages 115-116 of the book (page number 138-139 of the pdf). The mass matching of the coils is described on page 115 at the bottom.

"the weight on this helix happened to be precisely the same as that of the coil.....the shock was almost too intense..."
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  #33  
Old 07-17-2012, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nat1971a View Post
Just in case you miss it. Pages 115-116 of the book (page number 138-139 of the pdf). The mass matching of the coils is described on page 115 at the bottom.

"the weight on this helix happened to be precisely the same as that of the coil.....the shock was almost too intense..."
Thanks, I always was wondering what was the source of it. Great find and for average tesla coil builders, a great miss.
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  #34  
Old 07-17-2012, 04:37 PM
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Gentlemen, this guy was discovering electricity! When you put some students in series with a abruptly discharging coil they surely will feel the "shock". That's the law of induction.
Now get back to school or get a job!
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  #35  
Old 07-17-2012, 09:15 PM
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@mcalavera,

Lets test your knowledge on this topic. Who is the other famous electrical engineer that could also be discussed in this thread? What was the configuration of the coil used in that experiment? What were the dimensions of the capacitor? What was the colour of the spark?

If you can answer all of these questions you can go to the top of the class if not you can go to the bottom.
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  #36  
Old 07-19-2012, 08:47 PM
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ok so lets summarise the information we now know:-

1. Copper strap spiral creates shocks in a secondary as advised by Joseph Henry
2. The intensity of the shocks is increased by extra turns in the copper strap primary & decreased by less turns. (within certain limits)
3. Mass matching the copper strap primary with the secondary creates the most intense shocks
4. The shocks can also be increased by increasing the voltage
5. The primary circuit was interrupted with a mercury cup


So what did Tesla do differently? He added a flat spiral secondary. This is well known from the Tesla patents. He was using less turns in the copper strap to either prevent or reduce the shocks.

So are we to assume that the creation of a shock wave with the introduction of a flat spiral secondary does something special? Is there more to the flat spiral secondary than what is revealed in well known Tesla patents and pictures?

I already know the answers but i am presenting these questions as a way of analysing the information we now know and to promote discussion
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  #37  
Old 07-19-2012, 09:24 PM
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  #38  
Old 07-21-2012, 10:12 PM
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From "The Free Energy secrets of cold electricity" Peter Lindemann (page 27) -Tesla searched the literature to find references to this radiant energy but he could not find much...........No such reference was found, except in the surreptitious observations of two experimenters. In one case, Joseph Henry....the second case elihu thomson)

ok so an understanding of Tesla's radiant energy system is not quite complete unless we look into the other reference provided to us - elihu thomson

It is in the 1871-06-10 edition page 377 of the scientific american magazine. Titled "On a new connection for the induction coil" It is a reprint from the franklin journal. So I have found another of Gerry Vassilatos references.

Scientific American Volume 24 Number 24 (June 1871) : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive Scientific American Volume 24 Number 24 (June 1871) : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

What is important in this document is that they tell us that the coil was made by E.S Ritchie. After looking through all the references i could find on the E.S Ritchie coil it was described as having multiple layers of flat spiral coils. I shall post a description of it shortly.
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  #39  
Old 07-22-2012, 07:46 AM
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nat1971a

You are doing marvellous work ! Keep going please, it's like good detective story and you will find somebody removed something to hide another thing Conspiracy theory is a real deal...
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  #40  
Old 07-23-2012, 12:22 PM
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LMD Network Diagram.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SERG V. View Post
Hi Mr. Sputins !!

Yes you are right, phenomena exists but how many people know the truth sense of it ??

Can you present us your LMD network sch. and most importantly the geometry of your setup. Speciallyy segmentation of grill's grid and his relative position to you and your right hand !!

Thanks for informations !!


See above for the circuit diagam.

This was the circuit I used years ago so the exact details, I have since forgotten. Inductances were around the 2mH range, wound on ferrite rods, perhaps 3 layers? The whole network was ziptied onto a wooden ladder-like frame that I constructed to hold it all together. The geometry was like the drawing shown. The grill detail isn't known (sorry) but I'll have a search for it. (A primary coil of one or two turns might be a better idea).
I used one solid connection to the grill, the other was brushed lightly against the rust, as Eric mentioned, like a Cat's Whisker connection, (or spark gap if you will). Then WHAMO!!

There is no reason why other values of capacitance, inductances would'nt work, as long as it's within the capability of the amplifier. Happy to answer questions if I can. The amplifer was around 100watts.

@T-REX sorry for the cartoon. Any credit is all yours.

@ Jake, I didn't mention, but thanks for sharing your story, experience and your ciruit too.. Good on you, there are some similarities.. This is the kind of thing we need to take notice of. The strange happenings..

If this Stinging Charge Effect could be reproduced reliably, at will and consistantly, that would really be something! Tesla worked this out.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:50 PM
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We need experienced radio operator/technician. I would like to know the difference of feeling between stinging effect and high power radio nearfield of the same low frequency.

In my theory the difference between radiant energy and radio waves are tiny - radiant energy just never change direction - never undulate. Either charge negatively or positively.
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  #42  
Old 07-24-2012, 01:52 AM
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Love that cartoon. Looks just like Eric!

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@T-REX sorry for the cartoon. Any credit is all yours.
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  #43  
Old 07-24-2012, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nat1971a View Post
Just in case you miss it. Pages 115-116 of the book (page number 138-139 of the pdf). The mass matching of the coils is described on page 115 at the bottom.

"the weight on this helix happened to be precisely the same as that of the coil.....the shock was almost too intense..."
this is some great news nat1971a ... thank you for bringing it ti light .... closing another gap in figuring out Tesla's Puzzle

an similar pattern






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Over the course of an evening, the stars appear to move in the night sky. This movement, however, is not the stars changing position, but rather Earth rotating on its axis. This image faces north, with Polaris, the north star being the brightest trail closest to the center of the light paths.



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  #44  
Old 07-24-2012, 10:42 PM
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Sorry to keep you guys in suspense but i am currently on holidays in sunny queensland australia. I will post again sunday or monday next week.

Cheers
Nat
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  #45  
Old 07-25-2012, 07:20 AM
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ok in continuing the investigation on the E.S ritchie coil which was used by elihu thomson and was referenced in "the free energy secrets of cold electricity" and the franklin journal of which i posted earlier.

We can check out the references in the following book

"History of induction : The American claim to the induction coil and its electrostatic developments"

Pages 46-48 of the book (pages 65-67 of the pdf)

History of induction : The American claim to the induction coil and its electrostatic developments : Page, Charles Grafton, 1812-1868 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

In these references it clearly indicates that the coil is made of flat spirals

I have found all the references in this book and will post them when i get back home.

A wise man once said to me that you can't build what you don't understand
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  #46  
Old 07-25-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nat1971a View Post
ok in continuing the investigation on the E.S ritchie coil which was used by elihu thomson and was referenced in "the free energy secrets of cold electricity" and the franklin journal of which i posted earlier.

We can check out the references in the following book

"History of induction : The American claim to the induction coil and its electrostatic developments"

Pages 46-48 of the book (pages 65-67 of the pdf)

History of induction : The American claim to the induction coil and its electrostatic developments : Page, Charles Grafton, 1812-1868 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

In these references it clearly indicates that the coil is made of flat spirals

I have found all the references in this book and will post them when i get back home.

A wise man once said to me that you can't build what you don't understand
I don't understand kids but that has not stopped me from trying

But on a serious note. Thanks for that book.

If you have an old battery operated(AA) push button ignitor for grills it has coil made up similar to this. I beat one open with a hammer once and reconstructed the pieces.
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  #47  
Old 07-25-2012, 08:28 PM
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Stinging Rays

I have some information about these "Stinging Rays' Tesla discovered. There are some errors in your description of the equipment used to produce these rays.

The primary power source was DC high frequency, at high voltage> 50KV and moderate current >10 amps.

This was stored in a large capacitor and dumped through a spiral primary as described. The secondary was often only a single thin wire.

The spark gap was not a rotary gap, but a magnetically quenched spark gap. This is an important key to what was happening. This specific type of spark gap, discovered by Tesla, prevents ANY alternations in the primary discharge circuit. The discharge is a SINGLE pulse of high voltage, but extremely low current DC.

Unlike a Tesla coil which relies on ringing and alternating high frequency, the setup to produce these 'Stinging Rays" is a single, high power DC pulse, an electrostatic pulse to be more precise.

In regards to comments about these "Stinging Rays" being currently classified by some other name or type of radiation, or as a purely electrostatic "Shock" are mistaken. At first Tesla thought the wire exploded with such force, he was hit by a spray of tiny metal particles. However simple shields did not block the effect. Tesla tried on many attempts to shield himself from these "Stinging Rays", he called "Radiant Energy". Neither, Faraday or Magnetic shield of many layers could shield this effect. In fact, Tesla remarked that when he stood inside the Faraday Cage the effect was actually amplified and the "Stinging" sensation more painful.

Tesla further remarks he made extensive searches for examples of prior art or reference to the effect or similar apparatus to what he used to cause the effect. He names only one such case he discovered, concerned a Ruhmkorff Coil , at a University. Ruhmkorff induction coils use a magnetic vibrator to make and break the circuit, causing the high frequencies. However, I here point out that certain Ruhmkorff coils have the spark gap, located directly in the strongest point of the magnetic field. Thus in only certain Ruhmkorff coils we have, by accident, a magnetically quenched spark gap!

The results of this specific Ruhmkorff coil experiment, were an unexpectedly large electrostatic output, throughout the entire building in which the experiment was conducted. For example, sparks or electric discharge of some type was seen to spray from doorknobs to rooms on the floor above the experiment.

People forget about Tesla and the significance of his work. He is too easily categorized as an eccentric.

People forget our entire amazing AC electrical grid today, the foundation of our modern society, was entirely Tesla's idea. If you read the history of the AC grid, you will read that previously there existed a DC grid, and the investors of this DC system were not keen to adopt Tesla's new AC system. Thomas Edison went to the extent of electrocuting live animals on public displays to prove the dangers of AC electricity.

What they do not realize is Tesla, invented another type of electrical transmission system, many times better even than his AC system. He called this his Wireless System. After heavy investment in AC transmission infrastructure, after the DC system became obsolete, these investors were not going to have the AC system become obsolete too. So this time they just suppressed the knowledge and the much better Wireless system, never came to be. So in a nutshell, some investors held back all of humanity, to make a buck.

The wireless system relied on "Electrostatic" fields rather than "Electromagnetic" radio like transmissions, and came from the experiments producing "Stinging Rays".

True story.
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  #48  
Old 07-25-2012, 08:39 PM
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I found this forum because someone hot linked the Tesla Spiral coil image from my website Tesla page here:

http://www.ovaltech.ca/tesla.html
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  #49  
Old 07-25-2012, 08:40 PM
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@teslasecrets

RE "Tesla further remarks he made extensive searches for examples of prior art or reference to the effect or similar apparatus to what he used to cause the effect. He names only one such case he discovered, concerned a Ruhmkorff Coil , at a University. "

This is the coil constructed by E.S Ritchie of which i have described above as having multiple layers of a flat spiral coil and was used by Elihu thomson at the university that he was working at.
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  #50  
Old 07-26-2012, 07:01 PM
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I read, "On a New Connection for the Induction Coil".

Yes, I believe this is the exact experiment Tesla was referring too and I am mistaken that it was in a University, as the article clearly states it was in a Philadelphia high school.

You are discussing the implications of a Spiral wound induction coil and although this improves performance, a spiral coil is not required to reproduce the effect.

I should point out this article is entitled, A New " Connection " for the Induction Coil and not A New "Type" of Induction Coil. Since this was done in a high school, one could assume they were using an "Off the Shelf" Induction Coil produced for demonstration of induction in a high school environment. There is nothing special about the coils themselves. This induction coil likely used the external primary around an internal secondary, in a cylinder within cylinder configuration.

The key to the effects in this experiment, as I mentioned, is the location and orientation of the spark gap, or break, in relation to the magnetic field of the secondary. It was common practice when building early induction coils, to use the magnetic field of the secondary, and primary, to make and break the gap. If the gap was so positioned, so as to produce a magnetic quenching effect too, then we have a reproduction of Tesla's experiment, on a small scale. The ground connection and large conductor are important as well.

It is this "Magnetically Quenched Spark Gap" which is responsible for producing the necessary "Electrostatic" impulse, not the shape of the coils.
The coils purpose is too transform the voltage, as in any circuit. What is different in this circuit, is the nature of the electrical impulse produced.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:15 PM
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Let me define, electrical impulse, in terms of electrical systems.
We have DC, Direct Current, a steady flow of current.
We can have AC, Alternating Current, an alternating flow of current.
There is a third waveform, pulses in a single direction, which are neither pure DC nor AC. It is this third type of electrical power we are interested in.

Consider this example:

A wire carrying DC. A light bulb with two wires connected to it.
If we connect the light bulb to two points on the DC carrying wire, nothing will happen. The DC prefers the path of least resistance, and prefers to flow through the wire, rather than pass through the resistance of the light.

Now, if we expand the diameters of the wires, so they are more like rods of copper. Instead of DC, we apply high voltage pulses in a single direction only, at or above a certain threshold frequency. In this second case, we have a much different transfer of electrical energy through the wires. The impulse will travel in a longitudinal fashion, like a sound wave. From this analogy we can relate that the sound of a physical impact at any point on the metal wires, could be "heard" at any other point connected. In fact, Tesla found he could get the Light to illuminate, using this analogy.

There is a huge difference between an electrostatic pulse in a single direction, verses direct current or alternating current.
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:28 PM
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The title of this thread is "Tesla Stinging Impulse Rays"

Do you have any hard evidence on producing stinging impulses?

The information i have supplied is obviously what Tesla read and it is quite obvious that he combined the features of Joseph Henry's system and Elihu thomsons system.

And there is no doubt that a short duration pulse is part of the equation but is not the only variable in the equation.

To date i have never seen anyone post any hard evidence on this.

I have already done experiments with copper strap spirals & multiple layer flat spirals in conjunction with a thyratron. The details of which i wont elaborate on.
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:44 PM
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Someone wants hard proof? Build a Tesla coil or Rurmkorff coil with a proper "Magnetically Quenched Spark Gap" and connect it as described. For what better proof than seeing the effect with ones own eyes.

Tesla used a "Magnetically Quenched Spark Gap" to produce "Stinging Rays" which he was unable to find any literature about, except for this story from the Philadelphia high school. The Ruhmkorff coil used in the high school experiment had such a magnetically quenched spark gap, by accident.

A small set-up will not produce "Stinging Rays" because the power is too low, but the effect is still unique. What can we expect a tlow power? A white, flame like discharge and this "spreading effect of the charge" is an indication of the difference between this system and a normal Tesla coil or Induction coil. Describing one of the critical components required to reproduce the experiment, is critical to any demonstration or understanding. In the case of Tesla's experiments producing "Sting Rays", without knowledge of a Magnetic Gap, such a reproduction is impossible.

I am giving information, which can be physically tested and researched. If one does not understand the significance or effect of a Magnetically Quenched Spark Gap on such a system as a Tesla coil, one will not see the significance of this information. Until such a gap is researched and its effect on current flow in a circuit is understood, one has no grounds to judge the significance of a magnetic gap in Tesla's design.

I tried to explain some of the changes such a gap does to current flow in a circuit, and why exactly it is unique form of power, but apparently this is off topic.

There are other variables, and I did say coil shape can make the system more efficient, but you will never get "Stinging rays" without a "Magnetically Quenched Spark Gap", or something which operates similarly, and a ridiculous amount of power.

The only way we could ever get "hard proof" of "Stinging Rays" would be to reproduce the high power experiments Tesla did at Colorado Springs. However, I do not see this happening in the near future. Therefore we are stuck with experimenting with low power devices, such as that referenced in the paper "On a New Connection for the Induction Coil". Look at these old Ruhmkorff coils, understand how a magnetically quenched gap works, and it becomes obvious a magnetic gap played a role in the Philadelphia high school experiment.

I am not trying to discredit anyone else's work here. I am only trying to provide what I believe is a significant piece of the puzzle, in regards to the production of "Stinging Rays" or "A Unique Electrical Discharge". That a magnetically quenched spark gap or something similar, is a requirement in this system.

I am just suggesting one should look more closely at the spark gap, Tesla was using in this experiment. The magnetic spark gap is the only common component between Tesla's experiment and the Philadelphia High School experiment. The spark gap is obviously the component which made the operation of this "off the shelf" induction coil, truly unique.

Research early DC transmission system circuit breakers and "Flash overs" in these early DC transmission systems. People used to die connecting breakers on these old DC systems and the cause for these "overloads" was never adequately solved. Special breakers had to be invented.

Its just information, maybe its wrong, maybe its right. Take it or leave it. I do not really care.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:53 PM
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i think i already have produced the stinging rays (on a very very small scale - happened at every make and break of the circuit)....i have no way to prove it......only a thyratron.

Strange tingling sensation was felt on the battery casings.
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  #55  
Old 07-27-2012, 09:53 PM
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That's not true

"There are other variables, and I did say coil shape can make the system more efficient, but you will never get "Stinging rays" without a "Magnetically Quenched Spark Gap", or something which operates similarly, and a ridiculous amount of power."

Not true.

Hot air draft and other methods work according to tesla.

But that's just read and say.

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Old 07-27-2012, 10:17 PM
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If you carefully read the document on elihu thomson you will notice that a shock was felt at the handle piece at every make and break of the circuit
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Old 07-28-2012, 06:43 PM
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I mentioned you could use a Magnetically Quenched Gap or something which operated similarly.

A thyratron acts similarly, whereas a hot air gap does not.

Please let me explain what a Magnetically quenched gap is and how it effects the current flow in the circuit, so you can see the difference between this type of gap and an air gap.

In a magnetic gap, the circuit is broken by the lorentz force on the current path due to the magnetic field, according to the "Right Hand Rule". It is important to realize, in a magnetic gap, the breaking force is proportional to the current. The greater the current, the greater the breaking force. Especially true when we are using the primary circuit as the power source for the magnetic field across the gap.

This is not the case in an air gap. The air pressure or flow, would have to be increased to break higher and higher currents. This is true for many of the other types of gaps Tesla experimented with. Thus a magnetic gap, self adjusts its breaking power according to current. In fact, the magnetic gap essentially prevents current flow, while passing voltage.

A thyratron acts in a similar manner, conducting in one direction only for the duration of the pulse, but a thyratron does not limit current flow in most cases and would need to be modified with magnetic field to do so( a magnetically quenched thyratron ).

Shocking sensations from the handle and so on are indications of this type of power. The ability of this type of electrical energy to pass through ordinary shielding, such as a Faraday Cage, would be easy to test at low power and would prove the unique nature of this energy.

Tesla referred to this as a Zero Current Coil or impulse coil and you could call it an electrostatic coil. 99.9% of Tesla coils built and described today, are electromagnetic current coils, not electrostatic coils. All that needs be done is apply a magnetically quenched gap to a electromagnetic current coil, to change it into an electrostatic current limited coil.

The goal of the magnetic gap, is to prevent any and all alternations in the primary circuit. Alternations are due to current. Limit current and you limit alternations.
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:20 PM
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Some math for you.

In mathematics, dividing by zero is undefined. In electrical theory, we can divided by zero and get a valid result. I can demonstrate this with Ohm's law, which is relevant to what happens in a magnetic gap.

In a car ignition system is an induction coil. This coil is energized and then the circuit is opened or broken. We have voltage and current flowing in the coil, and then the circuit is opened. So our resistance effectively jumps to an infinite value. For any amount of current flow, when the resistance increases to infinity, the voltage will try to increase to infinity as well. This is according to Ohm's law and is the principle used to create the high voltage for the spark plugs in the engine. Voltage = Current x Resistance.

If say the ratio of the windings in the ignition coil was 100:1, for 12 Volts of power from the cars electrical system, we would get 1200 Volts of output from the secondary of the coil ( 12 X 100 ). In fact using the above application of Ohm's law, we get an inductive spike or inductive kickback in the primary circuit, when the break is opened. Thus the primary goes many times higher than 12V, increasing the resulting secondary voltage output. The output of these car ignition systems is typically higher than 5000 Volts.

You energy gurus should recognize the above concept is being used to recharge batteries running electric motors, to greatly increase efficiency and extend battery life.

We can apply the reverse of this formula as well. If we have an open circuit, at some voltage and connect it. The resistance goes from infinity to basically zero. So when we try to calculate current, we get Current = Voltage divided by Resistance, but resistance is zero. So mathematically this is undefined. However, nature obeys this reaction despite mathematics failure. The current does try to approach infinity, but is eventually limited by the true resistance and voltage.

This is what happens when you throw the breaker on a high voltage DC circuit. For a brief instant, current approaches infinity.

In a magnetic gap, whose electromagnet is powered by this same current, for a brief instant, the magnetic field approaches infinity, and thus the breaking force on the arc, approaches infinity.
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Old 07-28-2012, 09:05 PM
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i like your idea of a magnetically quenched thyratron! Would that work?

I mentioned it on this forum about a year ago and was advised it wouldn't work or that it wasnt a good idea. I can't see why it wouldn't work. I never tested it. Something to test one day...

Thanks for the info on the magnetically quenching. Never realised that it didn't let current through.
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:56 PM
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When we look at a thyratron as a triggered vacuum spark gap, which is essentially what it is, we can see there is absolutely no obstacle to magnetic quenching this device. It would require redesigning the shape of the thyratron, flattening it, so we can place two magnetic poles in close proximity to the discharge path.

I do see reasons why someone would tell you, this was a bad idea. You would need a glass blower for one and this leads to the results I have discussed, for two. Remember, Tesla mentions the construction of a "vacuum tube" which can amplify power to any desired level. A magnetically quenched thyratron, fits this description perfectly. However, who has the resources and knowledge to build a custom made, magnetically quenched thyratron?

Realize we are dealing with the production of a very unique and specific waveform in these devices. The resulting waveform is more akin to a sound wave, then our current concepts of electron current transmission. If you read the right journals and papers, you will find discussion of the longitudinal component of an electromagnetic wave and how this component is not fully recognized as a REAL component of electric transmission. Explaining this would take pages. The main reason this waveform is so difficult to produce is because it just is not fully understood. Thus the effect is not easy to replicate.
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