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| Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here. |
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06-12-2012, 02:46 AM
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If I measure the AC voltage off the wire with no rectifier and only measure the inner wire with 120VAC on the inner cylinder the wire will measure 80VAC. There is no spark gap, that was just a diagrammatic for where the wire vaporized. I really want to have some predictable equations for what is happening here. lots of notes to sift thru and input then it's on to the differential calculus and clifford algebra.           
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06-13-2012, 03:30 PM
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Ok,somewhat of an update on this undertaking.
I've been thru all the current and recognized equations dealing with 'displacement current theory' and not a single one can predict the outcome being measured here. I'll spare the group the differential calculus and algebra on that. I've gone back to the beginning so to speak, fundamental SI units and charge and will try and build a set of equations to predict the outcome based on observed measurements. One problem is the conservation of charge and the B field, it doesn't fit. This may fall into quiet oblivion, not very exciting and not obviously practical at the moment, but it does have some very strong implications on charge and quantization. I encourage others to play with this and see what results they get. I do not at the moment have any way to pulse plates with a DC potential. If anyone does and is willing to do this and record the results I'll gladly send them some copper plates to work with, the local metal supply house I purchase from for my other work has piles of remnants I get for cheap. thickness ranges from .022~.05 and 6"x6" on avg. The only reason I'm stubbornly stuck on this discovery is that it is directly applicable to electrostatics and plasma physics both of which are tied into the bigger project of taking Farnsworths research further. 
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06-14-2012, 02:09 AM
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What kind of pulsing do you have in mind?
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06-14-2012, 03:56 AM
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the surface area of all the components matched is one setup I want to test, the other is mass equivalence. details can be set based on what you can get. As to pulsed DC, tube based electrostatic discharge if possible.
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06-14-2012, 04:53 AM
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Replicate the tube
I would like to replicate the experiment with the windings on copper pipe.
IF and I repeat IF there was no short and the wires vaporised from outside energy source then I think it is te simplest and most effective I have yet seen. I will draw up my idea and post here for comment. I am wondering why after seeing this unusual event you are going back to plates rather than investigate it further. Gsmsslsb
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06-14-2012, 06:03 AM
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I haven't forgotten about it and will move onto that arrangement as well again, only instead of std 'coiled' windings I will have to jig up a form to wind them in parallel to the axis.
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06-14-2012, 04:39 PM
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This probably has very little relevance to this but your parameters of matching the mass and radius reminded me of something I saw a about a month ago posted by some guy which was pretty out there.
Here's the pdf of it: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx48...jg xMDZk/edit It all has to do with phi. The length is reduced by a power of phi, while the surface area and mass of the cylinders are kept the same. This is then pulsed and supposedly charges the cap with a higher amount of energy. Last edited by broli : 06-14-2012 at 04:42 PM.
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06-16-2012, 01:27 AM
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I've been working strictly with house mains AC, it's provided an interesting effect but it's not exactly the proper 'umph' that's needed. I really want to see what effect is derived from pulsed DC from tubes. My concern is solid state is going to filter and add in a quantized flow. I found an internal RCA document on vacuum tube design, going over that now to see what can be utilized here. The H field would be present in the coil itself, how to measure the supposed field between the plates is tricky, as any charge interacting with a coil of wire will induce a magnetic field in itself. Also an ES (electrostatic wave) will convert to an EM (electromagnetic wave) upon impingement of an inhomogeneous field, the field can be an EM wave of another source and magnetic field and since a magnetic field arises in a coil from the moving charge it will also provide the transition phase. Upon further reflection of this phenomenon it falls into tube design as the plates in a tube for the electron flow are capacitive. There has to have been some research into this at some point. I'll keep everyone posted and get some parameters out late tonight Pacific Time.
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06-19-2012, 06:27 AM
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Soooo much material to go over. I do like the challenge, not to mention I've learned more in this last yr than I ever thought I would. As much as I want to dive in and go for it a haphazard approach isn't going to be effective. It needs direction and outline. I'm sorry I haven't had more to share, summer season is here and my business is picking up, great  downside is less free time broad outline, two plates say 4" square, wire gauge 24, teflon insulation, or bare wire but the sheets will need a layer of teflon insulation. a good source for teflon is the teflon tape for pipe fitting. coil winding, bifilar, std. whatever strikes ones fancy as long as it's flat and the windings are parallel to the supposed magnetic field. I'm still trying to derive an equation that is helpful, what I've found so far is this equation: Pi r^2[Vmax/d]sin(wt), now the interesting part is that instead of the radius being applicable to the capacitor plate it is the behavior of the coil size. An increased plate size does not in the case of AC current have an increase in voltage. voltage varies on plate spacing and wire surface area or mass. It also raises the question of the induced magnetic field in the coil not by way of the plate charge but the flowing current in the wire.
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06-21-2012, 09:11 AM
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Patrick Kelly has updated the Vladimir utkin information on his site.
I am not sure if this part was in there before but there is a mention of a russian highschool student doing ALMOST the same as is being investigated here. Does anyone have any more information about the Mislavskij transformer. I googled a site where they were aparently discussing it but all in Russian. Anyway just thought I would bring it up as it is so close to the experiments here. LV
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06-24-2012, 09:33 PM
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Two pipe replication
Hello Mad Hatter
I have been trying to replicate your results with the copper pipes. I have the copper pipes wound and I have a heavy duty industrial full wave rectifier connected. When I connect a 440 volt capacitor acros the DC terminals I can only get about one tenth of the input voltage on the capacitor. So @ 48 volts input only 4.5 to 5 volts on the cap. This is only with the inner windings connected. This is only first try so I will use the other wire of the bi fillar and try the outer windings etc etc. One question though. Is the earth in your shematic connected to an actual ground earth or just to the other side of the cap? Anyway thats where I am at so far. LV Last edited by gsmsslsb : 06-24-2012 at 09:35 PM.
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06-24-2012, 09:59 PM
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with an earth connected to either terminal of the 5 mF capacitor the voltage slowly climbs to 145volts with the supply at 48 volts. I am not sure if it is charging somehow back from the main supply but there is No direct connection so I am still thinking. The voltage rise is quite slow maybe 30 seconds to reach 145 volts. I cant help wondering what would happen with my 15000 volt NST driving it. Madhatter did you see the voltages reported in your post immediately or slow climb??? LV
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06-25-2012, 01:57 AM
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06-25-2012, 02:12 AM
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My signal generator is no longer operating with adjustable frequency, need to fix that. Then I'll pulse the plates with a 20kV ignition coil.
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06-25-2012, 11:42 PM
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Ran a few tests this morning.
inn refers to the windiing on the inner pipe out refers to the winding on the outer pipe separately means the outer pipe winding connected to one ac terminal of the bridge and the inner pipe winding connected to the other ac terminal of the bridge. combined means both inner and outer pipe windings connected to the same ac terminal of the bridge rectifier. earth on red/black is means the earth wire connected to the pos or neg terminal of the bridge rectifier capacitor. The voltage in is AC volts from the variac. volts out is the DC voltage across the capacitor on the output of the bridge rectifier. It seems like after a certain voltage the output doesnt increase I may try winding more length on inner then on outer By the way how do I show the results in this window without having them as an attachment
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06-26-2012, 11:31 PM
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Strange strange strange
Ok I have been trying some more stuff withthe dual tube design from madhatter.
After I finished the tests above I wondered wether it is the number of windings so I tripled the windings on the inner pipe and tried again. Started with 17 volts supply output 320 volts in a 5 uF capacitor in one minute. Increse input to 50 volts output falls to 283 volt decrease input to 17 output rises to 320 volt decrease input to 10 volt output rises to 340 volt decrease input to 7 volt output rises to 360 volt. I dont know whats happening with this  Maybe if I turn it right off I will get thousands of volts out right hahaha  According to my calcs the best trial was 360 volt into a 5uF capacitor in one minute which = 1.8 millicoulombs in one minute =.03millicoulombs/sec = .03mA = 30uA = very very very tiny I also tried adding a third pipe inside the other two and connecting in various configurations but that did not seem to head anywhere. Also connected the inside pipe and outside pipe to the supply and tried the middle pipe as a output like a single turn coil but didnt seem to head anywhere either. not sure where to head from here? maybe start playing with frequency Madhatter any progress with the calcs? Last edited by gsmsslsb : 06-26-2012 at 11:37 PM.
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06-27-2012, 12:26 AM
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Seeing as how your setup has the windings perpendicular to the supposed B field the calcs should be easier. does your variac keep the current constant? you may have increased current as the voltage drops. late last night I was fiddeling around and pulsing one of the copper plates with 20kv to see if the coil would pick up anything, it does of course however my meters don't read higher than 600v on one and the other is 1000v, need to make a couple HV probes as well. I was tapping by hand the signal to the HV coil, so it's not that useful but it did show promise. I'll find my notes on cap charging with this and the resistor values, etc. Ultimately this arrangement is better suited to HV pulse than AC. Getting this setup in a vacuum will be more exciting too.
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06-27-2012, 10:21 AM
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I am going to try pulsing with an ignition coil and also maybe spark driven pulsing from a Neon Sign tansformer.
But before I do I want to try some other coil configurations. Madhatter or anyone can you look at the attached and tell me what you think the best config for winding a coil would be for this. I am having trouble visualising the magnetic fields around some of these. So far I have only done the BI FI coil. I am thinking maybe the Bi Fi toroid as maybe it will have the least induction and outside effects anyway let me know what you think.
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06-28-2012, 01:06 AM
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OK something happened.
I am not sure what but it involved as someone here put it The instantaneous molecular reconstruction of some wiring. It was not a short as the circuit breaker did not blow and I have shorted often enough to know that when I do the breaker will blow. I am still shaking a little and I ave left it on the bench. I will go back later and see what I can do. More later when I calm down ( stop shaking)
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06-28-2012, 04:59 AM
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it's something isn't it
 caught me waaay off guard too. do share as soon as you can the parameters involved. The bi-fi toroid is your best bet, although I suspect that your above experience has something to do with that wiring? Do to the strange nature of this and the propensity to generate what I can only assume is massive amount of current it's prone to be very dangerous.
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06-28-2012, 07:11 AM
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Its the variac. Because its an auto transformer and the supply is 230 volt then when I draw 10 volt off it the difference is to earth so I have 10 volt drawn off it then I have 220 to earth. And frying the wire etc was this 220 arcing through the insulation to the windings and going to earth. So I am thinking what may be happening is we are charging the output capacitor with capacitance to the plates. e.g. the coil windings become one plate of a capacitor inside the other capacitor and the bridge rectifier and smoothing cap are an avramenko plug. Thats what I think at present. This does not explain it completely though because it doesnt charge when I remove the inner pipe.( decouple the capacitor) I will have to think some more and try to nut it out LV
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06-28-2012, 08:07 AM
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initially I did consider the lumped model of the coil being a 'capacitive' plate, however the results and the math don't bear that out. as to the wire vaporize, are you sure it was a short that started between the windings and plate? I had thought so too, but further analyses the wire lead before the windings went poof and the current rush followed up to the pipe, much like a shockwave.
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06-28-2012, 08:25 AM
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08-12-2012, 08:34 PM
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quick circuit pic, info to follow
 Uploaded with ImageShack.us The above circuit was based on idea about grid control and tubes. this does indeed work. In the RCA 1940 vacuum tube design book, one chapter is a lecture on space current charge. the grid can be considered a equipotential plane if the grid wire spacing is closer then the gap between the cathode and anode. that's very much the case here. what interesting is that this is a room temp non thermionic electron emissions. what is being controlled? the magnetic displacement field? The rectifier bridged is not needed as the coils will also vary the AC voltage on the center disk. I found an interesting site: index not the most easy site to navigate but he's also questioning the displacement theory. from what I can make of his theory it seems very similar to what Eric is talking about.
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08-18-2012, 06:36 AM
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some more strange things...
going back to two disks, and one spiral coil with turn spacing equal to wire dia. I did some measurements. 2" copper disks 2" 24ga copper pancake coil oil/vellum paper dielectric 12VAC, each leg of coil one diode 1n34007, 10Meg ohm resistor and a 1.5uF 250v cap. voltage measured : with no ground ~2.5VDC; with ground lead ~6.5VDC coil ends, no diodes , no ground and shunted to 10meg Ohm R: ~4.5VAC, when charging a capacitor there is zero measured current on the plate supply power. now for the interesting bit, taking the AC transformer and holding it near the power cable drop,( I have a corded drop from the ceiling for power) the coil picks up this and puts out a voltage signal, looping the PS cable around the power cable also increases this effect, not too strange as this is 'inductive' pickup. It's highly sensitive though, esp to near body capacitance. the ability to charge a capacitor and yet not measure a current draw is the strange part. it's highly sensitive, picks up and amplifies mutual inductance greatly. been working on the calcs, so far the closer agreement is calculating a mutal charge field and not a magnetic field. need to brush up on my vector calculus some more and look a bit deeper into electrostatics.
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