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  #1  
Old 05-15-2012, 09:52 PM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Modifying Motors/Generators

Hi all, This thread is for all different kinds of motor/generator modification's.
I know there is already a lot of other motor generator threads but I thought a
thread with some devices developed from existing common equipment or
household appliances might be fun.

To show my first bit of progress toward exploring this area of experiment I
present the "Generating Field DC Motor". I used a vacuum cleaner motor which
I think was a 2000 watt rated vacuum. I believe it's a universal motor I tested
it with 120v AC first as it was originally wired with the armature in series with
the field coils, and it went well with 50 watts.

Generating Field DC Motor 24v input - YouTube

Generating Field DC Motor - YouTube



Then I separated the armature and the field coils and inserted another coil
between the field coils to make the two field coils in series with the other coil
then by powering the armature with DC from a battery the motor works and I
can get power out of the field coils as well.

Being out of an abused vacuum cleaner it's not as efficient as it could be
it seems to work well from 24 volts and has quite a bit of power. I'm
interested at looking into using some common appliance parts/motors to
experiment with.

I was also thinking about trying to use it the other way around by using a
motor controller to pulse the field coils then take the power from the armature.

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Old 05-16-2012, 01:52 AM
geotron geotron is offline
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Hi Farmhand, what an interesting project...

I'll have to look up some specifics on how these motors work,
because from your diagram it isn't registering to me how the
armature generates torque. Your motor has two coils and two
brushes, yet they aren't connected. Normally I'd guess the
coils would receive a pulse from the brushes. Otherwise it
seems like the armature would have the coils and it could
pulse against a set of magnets, as how an alternator is built.

Does the added coil have an effect on the output, or have
you included it for some other reason?

Recently I've obtained an old fan motor, perhaps candidate
for experimenting with; it registers at around 12ohms.

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Old 05-16-2012, 02:53 AM
geotron geotron is offline
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There are a couple of other ones as well... small motors
but what about rewinding with thicker wire? Also what about
replacing the magnetic strips with Neodymium? I'm having
difficulty determining their N-S polarity orientation with
a compass.

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Old 05-16-2012, 04:39 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmhand View Post
Hi all, This thread is for all different kinds of motor/generator modification's.
I know there is already a lot of other motor generator threads but I thought a
thread with some devices developed from existing common equipment or
household appliances might be fun.

To show my first bit of progress toward exploring this area of experiment I
present the "Generating Field DC Motor". I used a vacuum cleaner motor which
I think was a 2000 watt rated vacuum. I believe it's a universal motor I tested
it with 120v AC first as it was originally wired with the armature in series with
the field coils, and it went well with 50 watts.

Generating Field DC Motor 24v input - YouTube

Generating Field DC Motor - YouTube



Then I separated the armature and the field coils and inserted another coil
between the field coils to make the two field coils in series with the other coil
then by powering the armature with DC from a battery the motor works and I
can get power out of the field coils as well.

Being out of an abused vacuum cleaner it's not as efficient as it could be
it seems to work well from 24 volts and has quite a bit of power. I'm
interested at looking into using some common appliance parts/motors to
experiment with.

I was also thinking about trying to use it the other way around by using a
motor controller to pulse the field coils then take the power from the armature.

WOW, I'm impressed. I think you have created a DC induction motor

Let me explain.

When the current passes through the rotor a rising magnetic field is created. this would normally rise to a fixed point but at the same time it is inducing a field in the stator coils causing the rotor to turn. When the rotor turns the inductance changes as the commutator switches so now you have a varying field. It is still DC but it is varying in magnitude allowing the induced field to continue to oppose the rotor.

Universal motors are more efficient on DC than AC because we are not changing the polarity of the stator. I think you need to measure the output mechanical power. If it is more efficient than about 35% I think this will be proven.

With your induced current being in the outer coils it makes it simple to tap some of this. You could place a a high wattage bulb in series with your diodes and it should light.

If the combined mechanical power and light bulb is more than 60% of the input power, using a 3 battery setup would possibly bring it into overunity as additional power will be collected in the return line battery.

The third winding is probably causing a phase shift in the field coils.

Does my explanation make sense to you?

I need to build one of these
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Old 05-16-2012, 04:40 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Obviously pulsing it would improve the efficiency further
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Old 05-16-2012, 04:46 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Try replacing the third coil with a transformer, this may make it easier to draw power from the system. What's the signal look like on the scope from the third coil.

I love universal motors, there is so much you can do with them, Its like they are wanting to give you energy.
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Old 05-16-2012, 05:26 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Hi Geo and mbrownn, Thanks mbrownn I think you just explained to Geo for
me how the shaft gets torque. You're right it is more efficient with DC and
much more efficient with the windings as normal and with low voltage DC like 24 volts.
Which is strange because the windings are quite low resistance. I used the
extra coil between the field coils to raise the voltage, a transformer there is a
good idea, but it's so much more efficient with the field coils in series with the
armature, two sets of field coils would be good or a DC bias current or something.

It's just so easy to supply DC from a battery and let the commutator do the work.

It will glow a 25 watt incandescent bulb but just a bit I measured about 5 watts.
This is just something I did while messing around, maybe it could be made
better or with different motors.

So many things to try and think about, I would think that adding some small
permanent magnets in the right place would allow better use without powering
the field coils, I'm guessing when the field coils give current they make a field.

For some reason when i place the neos in there it make it slow down, maybe
they are too strong. I also noticed as the motor speeds up the magnetic
intensity skews slightly in the field, rotating a fraction the same way as
rotation (I think).

Anyway it is interesting and surprising it even ran when not energizing the
field. Wierd it can run well from 24 volts with 50 watts and is made to run
from 240 v it does have a SCR or triac motor speed controller PCB I saved as
well.

Cheers

P.S. It is a bit of a pain removing the cowling from around the impeller I drilled
a hole in the dome cowling and peeled it off like a sardine tin. I can be
more specific if need be. I had to clean the motor and free up and oil the
bearings as well.

..
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Old 05-16-2012, 08:32 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Geo, Those microwave fan motors can be handy but I don't think they will run
on anything but AC at around the correct Hz, I found that to power them
from my square wave converter I must use at least one series capacitor to
limit the current and prevent nasty reactions.

I kinda wanted to try to stay away from using permanent magnets, those fan
motors can be difficult to find the poles in.

I was thinking before i get too carried away I should quickly check out some
other motors just to see how they are built.

I've decided I might try to wind a few turns on top the field coils and see
what happens. I got an interesting result earlier by reconnecting the coils as
they were originally then leaving one field coil out of the powering circuit and
leaving the other field coil out of the output circuit but including the armature
in both. Still everything relies on using the shaft power as well, this motor has
a poor chance of good coupling of the shaft to different loads.

Cheers
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Old 05-16-2012, 09:17 AM
geotron geotron is offline
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Then the rotor spins when the load is supplied
from the generator field coils? This would mean the output is
resonating the motor! When a load draws current from
the motor coils it normally causes drag on the system rather
than increasing the torque if I'm not mistaken. How this works
is still a tad confusing.

What would happen if your third added coil was bifilar with
one input and output and the first of the two connected in series
with the other getting the magnetic fields to collide? Couldn't
any extra emf be captured somehow and sent back to the battery?

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Old 05-16-2012, 09:43 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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I would still like some torque and speed figures. Normal induction motors are surprisingly efficient on AC so figures for this would be very interesting. I think it may have more power when wired normally but is it more efficient?

For the bulb, try a 6v or 12v 60w because I think the voltage will be low in the field windings.

Again with the transformer use the output side of a 6 or 12v transformer so it is acting as a step up because we want to keep the resistance low.

Reducing the number of turns on the field coils or increasing the wire size should increase the amps and torque due to lower resistance. Note that the rotor winding on an induction motor is practically zero ohms.

Very nice work Farmhand.
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:41 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Geo, It does spin without the field coils even connected to anything but it
seems that if there is direct current flowing in the field circuit the correct way it
is more efficient. I haven't really wrapped my head around it yet, but put it this
way. With the motor wired as original it uses just under 1 amp with 24 volts, but
spins slower too. With no field coils in the power circuit the input is about 2 amps
there is about 10 mH less inductance but only a few Ohms less the rotor spins
up faster too but takes longer to do it, then when loading the field coils I don't
think a whole lot happened. I'm setting it back up again so I'll take note.

Cheers
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:21 PM
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Peculian Peculian is offline
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Thanks Farmhand for this topic.

Now just a simple idea:
What if you put different capacitor values at the coils you added up in series
or parallel ?
This is just an idea, nothing more.
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Old 05-17-2012, 01:20 AM
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Series vs shunt

Hi Farmhand,

You may already know most of what I am posting because I know you have been studying a lot, but I'll share this for those that may not have a good grasp of how these types of motors work. You have modified it to be a shunt wound motor which means the fields are in parallel with the armature instead of in series with it. This type of connection of the fields has some advantages over a series connected motor. I believe you are still getting it to run because of some residual magnetism in the field cores. And since you have a complete circuit with the coils and the bridge this allows some current to flow in the field coils which would give the motor enough torque to allow it to run. Have you tried seeing if the motor will still run if both field coils are not connected to anything? My guess would be it will barely turn if at all, and the armature current will be pretty high. This is because there is no BEMF being generated without the influence of the field.

In industry I worked on DC shunt wound motors up to 50 HP. When the field current is at the normal rated full field current the motor will develop almost full torque at very low armature voltage. One of the motors I worked on was driving a 40 ft milling machine table. When they were doing actual milling I have seen that motor move that table with only 2.5 volts on the armature and it was turning so slow you could count the armature segments go past the brushes. Amazing to watch a motor have that kind of power and turn so slow.

When the motor has full armature voltage and full field current it will be running at its rated speed and torque if not overloaded. If the motor is not loaded too heavily you can reduce the field current and the motor will speed up. Of course it will draw more armature current until the it gets to the speed where the BEMF limits the armature current. In this condition you have also reduced the torque of the motor although that is usually not a problem since the equipment is already up to speed. There are safety circuits built into the motor controllers for these large motors because of the potential for extremely high current in the armature if the field current were to fail. The current could go as high as several hundred amps or even up to a few thousand amps. And the motor would continue to accelerate until it or the device it was driving was destroyed.

So you can see that the field current has an impact on how the motor will run. Increase field current and you increase torque and limit speed. Decrease field current and you increase speed and decrease torque. These two statements assume you are keeping the armature voltage the same.

I really like the idea you have come up with for experimenting with a universal motor. I have never thought about taking the power off the field windings like that! I want to try that as soon as I get caught up on some other things I have going on. Thanks for sharing that idea.

Later, Carroll
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:52 AM
geotron geotron is offline
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Would there be any change in performance through pulsing the armature with
a capacitor instead of connecting it to the battery? With a second capacitor
on a CDI circuit in series with the emitter of the armature coil, it seems
like it would collect the emf output of the coil and could then be used alternately
to for some purpose during the off pulse of the motor.

One of the 12v fan motors from earlier is now providing an output; having
first rewound two of the stator coils after manually figuring out how they are
wrapped. This particular fan had the opposite coils in series. It now has
three of them in series and one that will be used to pulse the rotor. There's
enough room left on the stator for a secondary coil to be wrapped around one
of them for sensing when to pulse... or a reed switch and custom magnet rotor
could be positioned on top.

Through the use of another coil in series with the other three, could it possibly
obtain a suitably higher voltage with which to charge a 12V battery?

[ Fan Rotor Generator, 4.7uF ]
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:05 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Hi Cifta, Thanks for the explanation It will run also with the field
coils unconnected but as you point out the armature current is high, it does
speed up differently, I think what I was seeing in the video with 12 volts is
when I pushed on the shaft to load it a bit the input increased (armature current), which
increased the field current slightly, which then reduced the input power while
maintaining speed, those small batteries are quickly drained by 2 amps. I'll
setup the same arrangement tonight and make a better shorter video. I've
cleared some space. I'll show more clearly the wiring and stuff
I've got a better meter as well, I destroyed that analogue amp meter, it's
toast.

Geotron, I think I see now what your doing there, that's a cool experiment. I
think if you add another coil in series with the output coils outside of the motor
it will raise the voltage for sure, I think it's like an auto-transformer effect
(variac). I like the idea of the fan motor/generator, I think slider replaced the
flexable magnets in a fan with little neo's and it worked ok because they stuck
to the steel inner cylinder thingy in there.

Cheers

P.S. About the broken meter, I think I'll keep the meter even though it's
broken, I accidentally made a short circuit in reverse through the meter with
2 batteries in series then I accidentally did the same thing the other way
around, haha now it reads a maximum of 2 amps regardless of if the current
through it is more, but it does read down to zero. I should have used a
5 amp fuse.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:00 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geotron View Post
Would there be any change in performance through pulsing the armature with
a capacitor instead of connecting it to the battery? With a second capacitor
on a CDI circuit in series with the emitter of the armature coil, it seems
like it would collect the emf output of the coil and could then be used alternately
to for some purpose during the off pulse of the motor.
Yes, because we then get inductive kickback which also contributes to the motor torque. This is, I believe, one of the keys to three overunity devices I have been studying but not only cap discharge to the coil, we need the coil to discharge to a cap. The energy then stored in the cap can then be used to power a load or be used to power the motor again with maybe a small top up from the source. The energy transfer from cap to coil to cap is more efficient.


Quote:
Originally Posted by geotron View Post
Through the use of another coil in series with the other three, could it possibly
obtain a suitably higher voltage with which to charge a 12V battery?

[ Fan Rotor Generator, 4.7uF ]
What we need in our motor coils is amps, in this case, induced amps. Obviously under ohms law we want low resistance to give maximum torque. when we collect power from the coils it will introduce an impedance which fights against this but with the use of a transformer any draw lowers the impedance of the transformer. Hopefully there will be enough variance in the voltage of the field coils to make the use of a transformer a good option for energy collection.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:31 PM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Unfortunately I don't think it will do much good measuring much with particular
motor, the bearings are shot. It's stiff to turn again, i'll have to find another one
tomorrow, I did disassemble a food processor but it's motor has brass bearings
and a multi tapped field with much thinner wire, I noticed it has a big diode with
a heat sink wrapped around it and DC will make it run.

So my bearing would be causing a lot of drag, they stayed ok for a while
after I freed them up but now they are even making funny noises, obviously
worn out. I've got other motors but they're bigger.

Cheers
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:04 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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You need to find a large power tool as they have up to 2Kw motors. I am using one out of a 2Kw cut off saw and a 1.2kw angle grinder. As I am using lower power in them, I have to reduce the contact pressure of the brushes but I can get them to run off 12v no problem.

Obviously the high power units have lower resistance coils
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:22 PM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Well this motor has skate board wheel bearings so I ordered some new
ones, there are single skate board wheels on ebay for less than $7.00 Aus.
They're 608 bearings - 22x8x8 mm or thereabouts. I managed to reduce the
brush pressure a bit too.

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Old 05-18-2012, 10:16 AM
geotron geotron is offline
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In regards to the output voltage of this fan motor, it looks as
though from pulsing it with two AA batteries that it will produce
around 9V at ~4hz. It may be that it will instead have to be
stepped down eventually when running on its own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
What we need in our motor coils is amps, in this case, induced amps. Obviously under ohms law we want low resistance to give maximum torque. when we collect power from the coils it will introduce an impedance which fights against this but with the use of a transformer any draw lowers the impedance of the transformer. Hopefully there will be enough variance in the voltage of the field coils to make the use of a transformer a good option for energy collection.
Collecting energy into a load is one of the areas I purport could stand a few
improvements. The concept I've been working with is, through utilization of an
input switch that is normally 'on', energy would be gathered into a reactive medium
such as that of a capacitor. The output of this capacitor would be on another
switch normally off and the two would oscillate back and forth between charging
and discharging the capacitor from the source into the fan motor.

The resonator shown here will produce around 75V on a 22uF from 12V input without the
switch present, then dropping to 45-50V with it connected, and subsequently dropping
to 35V or so when the gate is connected to a small signal npn transistor.

Hopefully there exists some merit to this technique... and perhaps a better way
or combination of parts that would gather energy at greater level.

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Old 05-19-2012, 03:42 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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With a coil, no current is consumed in the making of a magnetic field, any Current that enters a coil, comes out the other side. The key things in calculating the magnetic force in a coil is ampere turns, the only voltage required is what is required under ohms law to make that current flow. We know that the energy lost in a wire is again related to ohms law. This means that resistance is a loss and serves no other meaningful function therefore it should be eliminated as much as possible. This way, less power is consumed in a motor.

Other losses are friction and iron losses and we all know to reduce friction as much as possible. so lets talk about iron losses. Eddy currents are a type of transformer action that consumes power and we reduce this by lamination of the iron or using special composites. This now leaves the power lost to changing the magnetic polarity of the iron, as a universal motor is more efficient on DC than AC it makes sense that we use DC but to get the transformer action inducing current in the stator coils we have to have a varying field. This is one reason why pulsed DC is the preferred option

What does all this mean? It means that all the energy used to create the magnetic field passes through the motor and it can be collected on the other side and used again. The capacitive method is a good way of collecting this energy as you say. We are powering the losses and not the load and so the motor power is for free

All this applies to transformers too.

When we pulse a motor or coil at sufficient speed we get inductive kickback which adds to the formation of magnetic power and also adds to the total power that can be collected in a capacitor.

It is these factors that when put together in the right way, will lead to the self running motor but as yet we have not succeeded. Why?

I believe it is because we use separate iron cores for motoring, generating and transformer actions therefore we have three iron losses. If we do it on the same core we will only have one loss.
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Old 05-19-2012, 04:58 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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I have to disagree on a couple of things there mrbrownn, I think that as the
magnetic field is building the voltage drop is an indicator of the energy from the
source being put into the magnetic field. If we were to measure current through the
coil and voltage across the coil in real time I think we would see that energy is
put into the magnetic field from the source while it is building. The current out
of
the coil x voltage out of the coil while the switch is closed shows the power is
less because of the voltage drop across the coil. more power goes into the coil
than out, though the current is the same because I think it must be.

Then when we collect the energy from the magnetic field we usually store it
into a battery or capacitor which is held over the battery voltage usually
double, so more energy is consumed to charge the 12 volts above the source
as well.

All in all as well I think when the motor must give shaft power under load
energy is delivered through the shaft, which comes from the supply as well.
When I load a transformer or motor I get less back than when it is not loaded
if the input remains the same.

Having said that it wont stop me from trying to make one run with no extra input.

The voltage is the force, the current is only the result of it. The current is
just a detectable effect of the movement of charge caused by the voltage.
It's like throwing a rock in a pool of water and measuring the size of the wave
it makes. The rock causes a different effect in air to water but only slightly
the disturbed air and disturbed water are like the electron flow. The object of
throwing the rock is not to disturb the air or water it is to move the rock
(the charge), if the air was full of smoke the smoke particles would represent
electrons, they are playing no part except getting in the way and representing losses.

The current I think will remain the same regardless of if it is a coil or a resistor
causing the voltage drop the resistor burns the energy off to dissipate it the
coil stores the energy in it's field. I do think that some of the energy
contained in the magnetic field is consumed when the field force is made to
perform work. As long as the magnetic field performs no work the energy
remains in it intact. It seems to me that with motors we can only ever take
the top fraction of the energy needed to be able to take that fraction off the
top. Mostly the rest is wasted, it's like building a pile of oranges to pick and
eat from the top of the orange tree, we have to use some oranges to do it
but we can use the same ones if we don't squash them, (too many losses)

I've been sidetracked by a paying job so I don't have a lot of time for a while.

Cheers

P.S. When I say we can only take the top fraction I mean from the shaft, we
can get the orange stake back no probs even though a little bit worse for wear.

..
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Old 05-19-2012, 05:17 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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I must say I am inclined to always think in terms of a worst case scenario, then
things can only get better. I do respect your thoughts though. And you are
right in saying an inductor can be lossless, in my opinion as well, I am just of the
opinion at the moment that loading the magnetic force will consume energy.

I would very much like to see that it didn't though, anything is possible and I
may very well be wrong and hope I am. As I say I not gonna stop trying, or
thinking about how we can do it, and show it. I think it's very important to show
it somehow, without all the numbers, but leaving no question.

Cheers

P.S. I've learned how to make a PICAXE chip work and I'm learning some code,
so I should have a micro controlled PWM sooner or later. It's not as difficult as
it looks.

EDIT: I've edited both the last posts, I hope they make more sense now.

..
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Old 05-19-2012, 05:43 AM
Farmhand Farmhand is offline
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Oh yeah I used a Pulsing circuit to pulse the armature with 50% duty up to
100% and it worked just like a transformer but the rotor didn't turn until almost
100 % duty, the transformer effect was fairly efficient at lower power.

The other way around hardly worked at all but it would be stepping down that
way I think. Can't wait till i get my new bearings, I've ordered a single 120 mm
inline skate wheel as well to make a generator wheel from. I'll have to wait till I
get it then decide what magnets I'll need to go in it.

The thing I like about motors and transformers is they are generally fairly
efficient to begin with, motors are fun too.

I agree that motors like current flow because the one I have seems to work
better with lower voltage and appears to want to get the same amperage
with 12 or 24 volts, kinda strange.

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Old 05-19-2012, 07:10 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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At last

Hi Farmhand, I am happy that you are disagreeing with me, I have been hoping someone would as I want to get to the bottom of this.

I agree the voltage drop is related to Power consumption but the current in and out of the motor is the same. You have seen that a motor can run on lower voltage and that the torque is proportional to the amps.. That's my point, its not the voltage, its the amps that are doing the work in a motor.

Now getting back to that voltage drop, the Ohms law part I understand, also the friction. I even understand the eddy current part to a great extent as eddy currents cause more draw of current from the source just like a transformer. Its the polarity changing in the core I still have to get a grasp of, How does that effect the power in or out?

On the magnetism. If we have a 10m length of wire and run 10 amps through it at 1v we have 10 watts input. if a small part of it was used as the coils in a DC motor it would still draw 10 amps even though the motor was doing work. If we doubled the number of turns in the motor it would double the work that the motor could do and the input would still remain the same as ohms law limits the current and so on. Obviously in a pulse motor we have to take into account the impedance caused by the inductance of the coil but as you know that energy isn't lost to heat as in ohmic resistance and is given back as the field collapse occurs.

I tried this experiment. I put a 12v 100w motor on a 12v power supply that is limited to 4 amps and measured the torque. I then connected two of these power supplies in series and powered the motor. The current was still 4 amps and the torque remained the same but the motor got hotter (as did the power supplies). To me this shows that it is the current doing the work and not the power as the increased voltage only increased the losses.

I have never found anything that proves the magnetic field consumes energy. If you have, can you post a link as I still cant get my head around this

If I am wrong I really would like to know it and why.

Thanks again as it is through people disagreeing with me that I find out new things and learn.
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Old 05-19-2012, 09:30 AM
geotron geotron is offline
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While constructing the solid state resonator, all kinds of switching parts
around took place. This video includes the one that had shown to operate
with the most success.

[ Recovery Switch ]

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Old 05-19-2012, 12:04 PM
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boguslaw boguslaw is online now
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First a "lenz free" transformer, generator and motor has to be constructed, then electricians will change some laws I think.

This is originated from simple question : where is electricity going after powering load ? The only looses in circuit is via resistance and it is in form of heat and radio waves, all other can be recycled and used again because magnetic field is FREE created.
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Old 05-19-2012, 01:34 PM
geotron geotron is offline
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Reposted from earlier in the Bi Toroid Transformer discussion...

How the change in output is produced without loading the primary?

How the capacitive and resistive loads are prevented from interacting?

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Old 05-20-2012, 02:36 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boguslaw View Post

This is originated from simple question : where is electricity going after powering load ? The only looses in circuit is via resistance and it is in form of heat and radio waves, all other can be recycled and used again because magnetic field is FREE created.
This is the conclusion I am coming to because of the lack of evidence supporting energy being converted to magnetism, but It is hard to believe that magnetism is created at no energy cost.

It may be that a small amount of the input energy is consumed to produce the magnetism but as yet I haven't found it. Another explanation is that the energy is produced as a result of an interaction with the environment and it is this that produces the magnetism, but where is the evidence?

If magnetism is produced at no energy cost to us, then self powering devices are truly possible.
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Old 05-20-2012, 03:57 AM
wayne.ct wayne.ct is offline
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Energy in a magnetic field

The topic under discussion is easily misunderstood. So, if you don't understand what I am trying to say here, that is fine. It is entirely possible I am also wrong. The analogy I use, whether good or bad, is that of a bell. (Think big, Liberty Bell, type of bell) The parallel is Joe Newman's, 5000 pound coil of copper wire. Air core means no iron losses. Heavy gauge wire means low resistance losses. Getting low loss capacitors is a breeze, in comparison.

Now, strike the bell. Momentarily charge the circuit. This could mean open the tank circuit and charge the capacitor to a desired potential. When you close the switch, the circuit begins to "ring".

So, you can hear the bell toll from miles away and it vibrates for several seconds and gradually becomes softer and quieter until you can't hear it any longer. The current flows back and forth in the tank circuit until the (minor) losses mount up and the current decreases to zero.

Now for the questions.

Is there energy in the sound waves? Is there energy in the magnetic field?

My conclusion is this. Relative to the "BIG" amount of energy in the bell itself or the coil system itself, the "other" components of the system are very, very small. This means they are very hard to measure. The closer and more connected the system is to the measuring system, the more they interact. This interaction has its own consequence that are "on top of" the more intrinsic or inherent losses and characteristics.

All this makes it very hard to determine, either practically or theoretically whether there is actual energy in a magnetic field. But, you can dip your paddle in the stream, so to speak. Put a coil in the magnetic field and since it is changing you will be able to measure an EMF or voltage. If you also allow a current to flow (and you will, if you do any measuring of the EMF) then you will have some (small) additional losses to the BIG part of the system and a gain in energy in the SMALL part of the system.

In one of Don Smith's experiments he has one transmitter tank circuit surrounded by four identical receiver tank circuits. They are all constructed to resonate at the same frequency. Does he get four times the energy out than in? Is it OU? Go read about it and build an experiment. It is an experiment I have not done, yet.

It seems far from clear what is the truth.

Keep building and let's prove our theories to be practical in the real world. Teach us how to do it, too. So the knowledge will not be suppressed.
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Last edited by wayne.ct; 05-20-2012 at 04:00 AM.
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