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  #1  
Old 03-21-2012, 03:26 PM
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The reason for 1/4 wave length

Greetings every one, this will be my first real post I hope you all find it interesting and enlightening, I am a private researcher and currently a college student, I've been replicating Tesla, Bendini, and Stiffler projects for quite a while and I've decided to share some of the knowledge that I've learned, hope it helps.

Firstly in order to understand this concept you kneed to know how a spinning toroid or smoke ring is created. So first of if you have ever smoked and you know how to make smoke rings you would first breath out a cloud so that its traveling at a reasonable velocity, they you would sharply inhale, this causes the cloud to be formed into a spinning ring, that will carry the smoke for quite a distance before it breaks up.

Now to apply this to electronics, suppose we have very large secondary with many turns of fine wire, and a secondary out of 2 or 3 turns of large gauge wire. We start off by tuning the signal in the secondary to 1/4 wave length. Now as we watch the coil we see a electromagnetic field build up around the coil and then the primary suddenly shuts off but the field on the secondary is still there (this is because the secondary has many more turns and its inductance is much higher therefore the change in the em field will be much slower) as the primary shuts off there is a back emf because there is no longer voltage being applied to the coil, this is the smokers sharp inhale that creates the spinning ring, and likewise a spinning ring of em energy is created that can travel a great distance without being broken up(this works best when the primary is driven at 1/4 wave length of the secondary). If this em ring strikes a mass the energy will be released in the substance it strikes, if it is conducting a large current will occur.
Now the shape of your coil is very important for creating the spinning ring. For a coil wound on a pipe where the sides a perpendicular the spinning ring is created on the normal of the coil sides, basically the spinning ring only increases in diameter and does not travel in the upward or down ward directions. However suppose we had a coil that wound on a cone with the edges 45 degrees apart the ring will travel upwards with increasing diameter at the same rate. now suppose that we had a pancake coil wound on a flat surface, this would create a ring that travels upward at a very high velocity without increasing in diameter, this wave will be able to travel very far before its energy is released to the surroundings, its the basis for Tesla's Death ray and wireless transmission of energy.

Any way I hope this helped some of you, I would have posted pictures of these devices in action but at the moment I don't have a camera please comment I would like to know what you think
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Old 03-21-2012, 08:14 PM
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I agree. I wasn't able to see it as whirls but it is very possible that such form it take. Long time ago I understood that to release energy in the non reflecting manner is by such breaking , like happen in the car accident - by abruptly stop at the peak of accumulation ( imagine a car stopped by a brick wall - energy is released destructively , much less is reflected - cars are damaged in place instead of being pushed out).
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:52 PM
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Yes it is pretty hard to visualize with out pictures, one way to make more sense out if it would be to take a slinky and tape or glue the ends together. If you put a pipe in the center slinky and watch the slinkys rotation as you move it along the pipe this will tell you how the wave travels through space or along a waveguide(aka the pipe) hope this helps
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Old 03-22-2012, 05:23 AM
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I follow the smoke ring analogy. I am a Chiropractor and I do a low force adjustment and I visualize it as a smoke ring force. What seems to be important in my work anyway is the void inside the ring and not the spinning smokey part.
The void allows for the structures to move toward my hands.
To take the analogy further to electrification, the void created by the smoke ring electrical field allows the universal energy to fill in for the void. The greater the void, the greater the flow of universal energy toward it.

If a clean enough void can be generated, massive amounts of energy will follow. Its a law of the universe.
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:35 PM
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I follow the smoke ring analogy. I am a Chiropractor and I do a low force adjustment and I visualize it as a smoke ring force. What seems to be important in my work anyway is the void inside the ring and not the spinning smokey part.
The void allows for the structures to move toward my hands.
To take the analogy further to electrification, the void created by the smoke ring electrical field allows the universal energy to fill in for the void. The greater the void, the greater the flow of universal energy toward it.

If a clean enough void can be generated, massive amounts of energy will follow. Its a law of the universe.
wyndbag, your experience with the smoke ring projection is quite interesting .... as i do not desire to derail the topic of this thread...could you give some details on the process of the creation of the smoke ring.....If it is ok with you, i 'll be looking forward to reading your answer in the following thread: The Brain is an Advanced Fractal Antenna ... so as to keep the topic of this thread on track



ps: just for info 1/4 wave is HM 7 (see pyramid measurements ) and Tesla obsessed with the Number 3
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:16 AM
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ah very interesting wyndbag, its neat to see parallels between electrical and physical applications.
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Old 03-23-2012, 03:35 PM
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I am enjoying exploring this too. Since I am too old to learn the math, I relate to the less abstract pictographic approach.
The quarter wave in the body is represented by the knee. To energize the body, stretch the calves. The calves are often referred to as the 2nd heart.
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Old 03-23-2012, 05:50 PM
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Now to apply this to electronics, suppose we have very large secondary with many turns of fine wire, and a secondary out of 2 or 3 turns of large gauge wire.
I am confused by this statement. A very large secondary of what? A standard transformer, or a Tesla Magnifying Transmitter, or a toroid? And also what is the importance of comparing two different types of secondary, one with thicker gauge and less turns the other thinner and more turns?

Also how exactly does tuning to 1/4 wavelength produce the em ring? Tesla was using 1/4 wavelength because it was the smallest length of wire that could sustain a natural standing wave, with the greatest amplitude (pressure) fluctuation. This was in his TMT.


Source: ~60% way down through Chapter 3 of free energy info

Tesla often made extensive use of Impulses, the Impulse can be imagined to create a quick "pressure" differential, which appears to be the same principle that Vortex ring guns use.



I would think that producing a em ring that decreases in size over time (contracting) might have the most interesting power concentrating/focusing like effect. Brilliant creative ideas Leviathan! I will be definitely looking into ways of producing em rings, and also on a related note I want to produce an em vortex as well.
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:17 AM
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Ok finally got a camera and took some pictures, makes a lot more sense once you can see it












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Old 03-24-2012, 09:28 AM
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these are some of the coils I've been using, I run them at around 250-350 KHz
using a slayer circuit with a TIP2N3055. With the big fat coil I can transmit enough energy up to 2 feet away to light a low powered led, the circuit driving it was pulling .04 amps at 4.16 volts, thats about .16 watts. The receiver I use is just separated conducting masses that I connect to the led, it doesn't use a induction coil as a receiver it would be quite impossible to transmit that much energy with induction using the power levels that its running at. Also the denser the mass the more energy is received, this next week I will be casting some lead to make some very sensitive receivers I hope to have some more pictures of my device in operation soon and more details on the receivers.
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:22 PM
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Leviathan, your drawings correspond quite amazingly to the pyramid set up and HM 7 / 1/4 wave :



Quote:
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Ok finally got a camera and took some pictures, makes a lot more sense once you can see it




Very interesting Set up .... Thank you for sharing your experiences
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:27 PM
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ps the following picture



Reminded me of :



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Old 03-24-2012, 01:18 PM
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From the link Gestalt gave (Practical Guide to Free-Energy Devices - Chapter 3)


Quote:
Accordingly, an understanding of the “quarter-wave” phenomenon will help a reader understand how a straightforward and easily-controlled factor (i.e., the length of a wire ribbon which will be used to form a spiral coil) can help create a “quarter-wave” resonant response, which will create the types of electromagnetic pulses and fields referred to as “standing waves”. The speed at which a voltage impulse is transmitted through a metal wire is extremely fast. It is essentially the same as the speed of light, which travels 300 million meters (186,000 miles) in a single second (that distance would circle the earth more than 7 times).

If wavelength (in meters) is multiplied by frequency (cycles per second), the result will be the speed of light, 300 million meters/second. Therefore, the wavelength of an “alternating current” (AC) voltage, at some particular frequency, will be the speed of light, divided by which frequency.

Therefore, using simple division, if an alternating voltage operates at a frequency of 1 megahertz (MHz), which is a million cycles per second, then the “wavelength” at that frequency will be 300 meters. If the frequency halves become 500 kilohertz, the wavelength becomes twice as long (600 meters); and, if the frequency were to increase to 2 megahertz, the wavelength drops to 150 meters.
@ Leviathan
based on the quoted text above, at 250-350 KHz, the wire lengths of your coil, would need to be between: 1200m and 857.14m long

On your drawing you state 1/16th, does that mean your wire length is about 300m to 214m long?

Or am I missing something on how to determine the length of a wire to get 1/4 wave length?
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Old 03-24-2012, 04:40 PM
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From the link Gestalt gave (Practical Guide to Free-Energy Devices - Chapter 3)




@ Leviathan
based on the quoted text above, at 250-350 KHz, the wire lengths of your coil, would need to be between: 1200m and 857.14m long

On your drawing you state 1/16th, does that mean your wire length is about 300m to 214m long?

Or am I missing something on how to determine the length of a wire to get 1/4 wave length?



ah yes very good question, when running this system with an AC signal my coils would have to be 1200-857m, however I am running these coils on pulsed DC with a very short on-time, which means that my signal can never be more that 1/4 wavelength. To make more sense of this look at the drawings I made, the cone with the 1/4, simply means that the coils field is at its largest while the current is flowing in one direction, therefor if I attached a DC power supply the em field would be equivalent to a AC signal at 1/4 wavelength. So even though my coils aren't 1200-857m long I can run a pulsed DC wave for and get the same effect if I used a AC signal at 1/4 wave length, the less on and off time(aka higher frequency ) for my DC wave the better.
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Old 03-24-2012, 05:42 PM
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I personally think the wave length corresponds with the harmonics of the system..
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Old 03-24-2012, 09:57 PM
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Leviathan, your drawings correspond quite amazingly to the pyramid set up and HM 7 / 1/4 wave :





Very interesting Set up .... Thank you for sharing your experiences

interesting, now that you mention it it does seem to have a similar geometry to the pyramids, looks like I would be worth some thinking about
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Old 03-24-2012, 10:01 PM
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I personally think the wave length corresponds with the harmonics of the system..
yup thats true the harmonics of a system is determined by the geometry of the coil and its surroundings, when running my transmitter coil I can change the operating frequency up to around -100 kHz just by putting my hand next to the coil, also it seems to have differently shaped waves depending on what substance is near the coil, pretty interesting stuff
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:08 AM
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Naudin Coil

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Originally Posted by Leviathan View Post
these are some of the coils I've been using, I run them at around 250-350 KHz
using a slayer circuit with a TIP2N3055. With the big fat coil I can transmit enough energy up to 2 feet away to light a low powered led, the circuit driving it was pulling .04 amps at 4.16 volts, thats about .16 watts. The receiver I use is just separated conducting masses that I connect to the led, it doesn't use a induction coil as a receiver it would be quite impossible to transmit that much energy with induction using the power levels that its running at. Also the denser the mass the more energy is received, this next week I will be casting some lead to make some very sensitive receivers I hope to have some more pictures of my device in operation soon and more details on the receivers.
Hi, thank you for your posting those. Have you seen the Naudin coil (see)

JLN Labs - TEP Project - EM Vortex generator

regards,
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:39 PM
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ah yes very good question, when running this system with an AC signal my coils would have to be 1200-857m, however I am running these coils on pulsed DC with a very short on-time, which means that my signal can never be more that 1/4 wavelength. To make more sense of this look at the drawings I made, the cone with the 1/4, simply means that the coils field is at its largest while the current is flowing in one direction, therefor if I attached a DC power supply the em field would be equivalent to a AC signal at 1/4 wavelength. So even though my coils aren't 1200-857m long I can run a pulsed DC wave for and get the same effect if I used a AC signal at 1/4 wave length, the less on and off time(aka higher frequency ) for my DC wave the better.
How are you determining that your DC pulses are within the 1/4 wavelength limit. How long are your DC pulses "on" for?

How can the pulsed DC produce the same effect as an AC signal, seeing as with AC, you would get a reversal in the field each time the AC wave crossed over from positive to negative, or are you comparing to rectified ac, where you only get one part of the output?

I'm not saying your wrong or anything like that. I am just trying to understand how to replicate your setup. How to achieve 1/4 wavelength with pulsed DC, while using shorter wire lengths.
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:35 AM
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@Leviathan

Thanks for your contribution. I won't pretend to understand what you are getting at, it seems I am having quite the mental block trying to determine how you take the Slayer circuit, which seemingly "does what it shall do", i.e. - it picks a frequency and runs at it, there are no capacitive tuning elements to the primary, nor the secondary - though they can be added... but nonetheless... you state that your winds are not long enough to emulate the proper 1/4 wave "wire length" but you obtain the same thing by using pulsed DC... which would seemingly require quite a fine tuning (or at least I'd think it would...) so, what exactly then, are you doing differently?

In this example I took my coil and struck a 15 watt fluoro to light end to end on the tube and it did not flicker in my view, though the cam shows it... at 1.2V and 13 mA, approximately 16 milliwatts.

The odd thing about it was, that, in order to get it to illuminate I had to 1. attach my output to the tiny hole in the actuall Fluoro electrode, so literally connect it, but more oddly, I had to hold the bulb at 90 degrees to the tower, close to the top. Once struck, I could then lean it closer to the tower. That I found strange.

I will read over your stuff a bit more, I would like to learn to fully understand the Slayer circuit and tune it to maximum potential, thus far everything I have done, has been tedious trial and error. And yet I read a lot of stuff; i.e. the mass of the copper in the primary should equal the mass of the copper in the secondary... but a lot of the information pertains to a true tesla coil, so I don't know how relevant it really is.

Thanks though!
Cheers
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:22 PM
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Thanks for posting kcarring look like you have some experience with the slayer circuit. The secret to tuning you coil with the slayer circuit is to position the primary in the right spot, usually it is a little less than 1/4 the way up from the bottom. This is how you tune it to 1/4 wave length, the transistor shuts off from the feed back of the secondary, now when the voltage is high enough to shut off the transistor in a correctly tuned circuit on the other side of the primary will be oscillating at 1/4 or less wavelength A neat thing to do is to connect a oscilloscope to the emitter and collector of your transistor and slide the primary up and down, you'll see quite and interesting wave, and if you have a led on an av plug or something similar you can find where it is the brightest which is the sweetspot.
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:27 PM
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How are you determining that your DC pulses are within the 1/4 wavelength limit. How long are your DC pulses "on" for?

How can the pulsed DC produce the same effect as an AC signal, seeing as with AC, you would get a reversal in the field each time the AC wave crossed over from positive to negative, or are you comparing to rectified ac, where you only get one part of the output?

I'm not saying your wrong or anything like that. I am just trying to understand how to replicate your setup. How to achieve 1/4 wavelength with pulsed DC, while using shorter wire lengths.


ah good question, if you have a AC signal tuned coil to 1/4 wavelength there will be no reversal of the voltage that the coil will see, so if you looked at a sin wave and shaded in 1/4 wave length on every period you would see what the coil "sees" and that is a pulsed DC signal
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
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interesting, now that you mention it it does seem to have a similar geometry to the pyramids, looks like I would be worth some thinking about
Quote:
Thanks for posting kcarring look like you have some experience with the slayer circuit. The secret to tuning you coil with the slayer circuit is to position the primary in the right spot, usually it is a little less than 1/4 the way up from the bottom
Just wanted to share with you the schematic of the Pyramid ... hope this inspires you

imagine it is your coil



also mentioned , the 1/4 wave that is in the following presentation:

Bosnian Pyramids - Exotic Energy Generation - ICBP 2011 - YouTube
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Old 03-27-2012, 10:54 PM
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@Leviathan Yes, indeed I have played with and noticed the importance of the positioning of the primary and it's height and I agree, it is best exactly where you talk of. I have a couple of questions, if you don't mind...

1. Of those three conical shapes straight cylinderical, slight conic, exaggerated conic (funnel) .. do you see one being better than the rest?

2. What do you make of the importance in mass of wires (primary vs. secondary) or perhaps the primary being fractional length of the secondary... anything?

I guess it would totally depend on what driver we were discussing but the Slayer circuit and the standard spark gap Tesla coil, are the two, that immediately come to mind.

I have noticed on very low voltage input a variable capacitor in parallel with the primary 0-500pF can be beneficial, but also have noticed that in higher voltages, it seems to make less of a difference, as learned from Gbluer.
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Old 03-29-2012, 03:30 PM
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1. Of those three conical shapes straight cylinderical, slight conic, exaggerated conic (funnel) .. do you see one being better than the rest?

2. What do you make of the importance in mass of wires (primary vs. secondary) or perhaps the primary being fractional length of the secondary... anything?

I guess it would totally depend on what driver we were discussing but the Slayer circuit and the standard spark gap Tesla coil, are the two, that immediately come to mind.

I have noticed on very low voltage input a variable capacitor in parallel with the primary 0-500pF can be beneficial, but also have noticed that in higher voltages, it seems to make less of a difference, as learned from Gbluer.[/QUOTE]



1. there isn't really a better coil but the different geometries allow different shapes of fields around them, so your coils shape mostly depends on what your using it for.

2. I haven't had done much experimentation with masses of the wires I would like to in the future, maybe it will create stronger fields that way.


Interesting note about the capacitor I think Ill try it with a scope hooked up and see how it changes the wave form
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:50 PM
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in reference to the 1/4 wave tuning

Lets say we have a 100hz coil secondary. In tuning the primary do we use a 25 hz primary or a 400 hz primary? Both of these are correct are they not? What is 1/4 wave?

Bud
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:38 PM
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Lets say we have a 100hz coil secondary. In tuning the primary do we use a 25 hz primary or a 400 hz primary? Both of these are correct are they not? What is 1/4 wave?

Bud
Quarter wave refers to the conductor/antenna length relative to the full wave length (I.E. the operating frequency). If you want your 100 cycles per second secondary to resonate at 100 CPS then you must use a 100 CPS oscillator and everything must be tuned to work at 100 CPS, though technically your physical length of wire is a FULL WAVELENGTH at 400 CPS, but you are not trying to fit a full wavelength on it so forget that. At 100 CPS there will be a 1/4 wave distribution over the conductor/antenna. That is, the conductor is 1/4 of the length of a 100 CPS wave, everything must be worked around this 100 CPS regardless of the lengths of individual components.

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Old 03-11-2014, 03:41 PM
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Quarter wave refers to the conductor/antenna length relative to the full wave length (I.E. the operating frequency). If you want your 100 cycles per second secondary to resonate at 100 CPS then you must use a 100 CPS oscillator and everything must be tuned to work at 100 CPS, though technically your physical length of wire is a FULL WAVELENGTH at 400 CPS, but you are not trying to fit a full wavelength on it so forget that. At 100 CPS there will be a 1/4 wave distribution over the conductor/antenna. That is, the conductor is 1/4 of the length of a 100 CPS wave, everything must be worked around this 100 CPS regardless of the lengths of individual components.

Hi DR-Green, Thanks for the reply. Correct me if I am wrong......but the way I see this is to use a 100 CPS natural resonant primary with a 400 CPS natural resonant secondary. Am I seeing this correct?

I have built tesla coils before but they have always been resonant primary and resonant secondary.....1 to 1. I have never tried a 1/4 wave or 1/2 wave as I do not understand the relationship/concept.

Bud
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Old 03-11-2014, 04:33 PM
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Hi tekman,
The relation is pretty simple. Figure a Sinewave. ~
You have a positve wave and a negative one when you draw a line through it ~-. 1/4 from the lenght would start at the Zero point in the middle, and raise until the first top Point. But i still dont really know too why it fits into most Configurations at best. It would be more logical that you can use 1:1 too.
Maqybe because you have lesser losses at the Pickup as with the full Sinewave?
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Old 03-11-2014, 11:36 PM
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Hi DR-Green, Thanks for the reply. Correct me if I am wrong......but the way I see this is to use a 100 CPS natural resonant primary with a 400 CPS natural resonant secondary. Am I seeing this correct?

I have built tesla coils before but they have always been resonant primary and resonant secondary.....1 to 1. I have never tried a 1/4 wave or 1/2 wave as I do not understand the relationship/concept.

Bud
It's not quite correct because it's a 1/4 wave resonator, so the natural resonant frequency is still 100 CPS.

The resonant frequency is a function of the inductance and capacitance, which are functions of the wire length and coil geometry, how the wire is distributed in space.



Ideally you would design the secondary to operate at a certain frequency and this sets the system frequency. A primary coil of any number of turns or wire length has an inductance, and so with a parallel capacitance it can be made to operate at any frequency within reason, so it can be tuned to engage the secondary.

Also this doesn't show 1/4 or 1/2 wave actions, but it's good for visualising such things. Note the reflection at the free end of the machine (coil).

AT&T Archives: Similiarities of Wave Behavior (Bonus Edition) - YouTube
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