The Real History of the Ed Gray Motor by Mark McKay
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Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2012, 06:07 PM
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I've seen videos of people lighting av plugs wirelessly from an SEC. What kind of voltages(primary and secondary)/frequencies are needed to get this effect?
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2012, 10:03 PM
xee2 xee2 is offline
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I have several videos posted on youtube at xee2vids. 1.5 volts will light fluorescent tube a foot away wirelessly.
Slayer exciter circuit - 1 AA battery - YouTube

Last edited by xee2 : 04-26-2012 at 10:19 PM.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2012, 11:51 PM
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xee2,
What kind of voltages were your getting on the secondary coil?
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old 04-27-2012, 12:24 AM
xee2 xee2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jake View Post
xee2,
What kind of voltages were your getting on the secondary coil?
Unknown. but I think over 20,000 volts.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 04-28-2012, 08:13 PM
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20kv nice

I played around with HV a lot last year. 50uF spark discharges of up to 5000V. Neon sign transformers and spark gaps are fun. I could light neons 15' away when stuck into the ground. The whole plastic as conductor also worked with NSTs.


I also did 3 Henry discharges/oscillations. Only 24v but scary with the amps I knew were there. I melted 4 neons in parallel this way. It only took 12 volts to melt 1 neon.

Any following Tesla's advice I went with smaller and smaller caps and faster and faster frequencies. That is when Eric came out with the crystal initiative and I thought that would be a good way to learn the in and outs of HF.

As I proceed I am trying to figure out what is HF related and what is HV related. I am so used to working with and reading about HF/HV at the same time I forgot that they are each their own entity.

I am starting to like this HF stuff.
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2012, 04:03 AM
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@madhatter,

What causes the two small peaks on each side of the large resonant point? I don't have a scope but they "show" up as audio on the piezo. It lets me know I'm getting close.
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2012, 05:09 AM
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it may have to do with the phase shift, before resonance the current leads the voltage at resonance it is in phase and after the current lags the emf. The shift may be what you're picking up.
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 04-29-2012, 03:10 PM
xee2 xee2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jake View Post
@madhatter,

What causes the two small peaks on each side of the large resonant point? I don't have a scope but they "show" up as audio on the piezo. It lets me know I'm getting close.
I am not sure what your setup is so this is hard to answer. But it is probably the modulation on the carrier. This shows up as sidebands in the frequency domain. You can sometimes even see this from signal generators due to 60 Hz leakage.
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2012, 02:09 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Smokey - Introduction

Hello All,
Here to introduce myself and have an Extra Coil discovery that you all need to know about which I will post shortly.
Have been over at 'n6kph' and working with, David, Jake, Scott and Gary Peterson of 'TFCBooks' and all have been most helpful.
This introduction is a copy of one I made at n6kph in response to a Post:

Gary,
These tests of Erics are designed to gain some distance tuning knowledge with the Extra Coil and with the Secondary test, to tune in the local AM Station via the Hertzian component and not the Telluric.

I have four Oscilloscopes, 1 x 100 Mhz (HP 1741A), 2 x Tektronix Valve and a Telequipment solid state which is UK Tektronix.
Have a fully set up Lab that has basically taken me 10 years to acquire or build the required tools.
Only thing I don't have is a Spectrum Analyser and working on that now.
Am not a Ham but fully qualified to be so and have a considerable collection of Vacuum Tubes that go along with my research, Moray/Ion Valve/Smith/Kapanadze type research.
I am 70 years of age and been at this full time since retiring 10 years ago.
I am ex Radio Station, RANavy, NASA Tidbinbilla Space Track and finally electronic designing for the Auto Industry.
Repairing a Yaesu FT-901 Transceiver due to its AM driver capabilities ready for the next step but these initial problems need to be overcome with respect to design.
Yes, I have seen your repeated information but can only do one step at a time and will get to do your Oscilloscope tests at the right time which is not right now as the working data is suspect as is my Extra Coil.
I am also into Aetheric Weather Engineering after Wilhelm Reich and TJ Constable etc which is another story again but helps with the Aetheric ubderstanding associated with all of this.
I have 13 devices here that can make it rain and all of which are not recognised by 'science' just as is Tesla's TMT and why I am also following this path.
Letting you know where I come from.

Smokey
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2012, 02:18 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Extra Coil Math Discovery

This Post is repeated at 'n6kph'.

A Discovery - Extra Coil:
I find repeatedly that simple Maths is a significant part of discovery and has allowed me to build many devices that others have failed at or not even bothered with, all because it appeared too hard.
I now have two Extra Coils, one considered wrong Math and the newer considered the correct Math.
Question to me was that the old worked and the new doesn't but why?
You may remember me saying that my first attempt at this coil worked as I was picking up my local 2 Kw station with the Headphone capacitor antenna some 8 to 10" away from the Extra Coil and it was proven to be a Telluric signal and not Hertzian.

The Math:
Old Coil data - works:
CalcF = 1.557 Mhz (1.557 x pi/2 = 2.4457) MULTIPLY
53 turns of 14 awg (same as Secondary wire size) with a diameter of 195.2mm
L = 30.829 meters (9.7244 Mhz)
Actual 1/4 wave Fres = 2.4655 Mhz AFTER F 1.557 Mhz
Error long by 198 Hz which means I need more turns over the 53 I did have but probably only one required and this should increase signal strength as well.

New Coil data - doesn't work:
Calc F = 1.557 Mhz (1.557 / pi/2 = 991.2 Khz) DIVIDE
125 turns of 21 awg with diameter of 195.2mm.
L = 75.61 meters (3.965 Mhz)
Actual 1/4 wave Fres = 991.4 Khz BEFORE F 1.557 Mhz

What this is saying is that you need to find the 1/4 Wave point from your number of turns and that needs to match your signal frequency MULTIPLIED by pi/2. (1.557 x (pi/2) = 2.4457 Mhz)

When I had completed the first coil I was happy with the Math and why I went ahead with the build.
It is only now, on analysis that the Math can be presented on paper and you can see what is happening here.
What I first built was, I feel, correct as the pi component is at the correct point AFTER the centre point going on to the full 1/4 wave and not before the 1/8th wave point.
This AFTER point is where Tesla's 'standing wave' is permitted/allowed to occur.
The second coil has its pi point BEFORE the 1/8 wave point and cannot resonate correctly and will be difficult to tune as is noted in the documentation many times.
What is of significance here is exactly where the pi point is (where your reference signal is) and is not a harmonic or octave or any of the regular resonance points but WITHIN THE FULL QUARTER WAVE at the 1/4 wave/pi/2 point and this is where your reference signal is located. (2.4457/(pi/2) = 1.557 Mhz)

If your Extra Coil does not work or is difficult to tune then the above will explain why.
If you then build a new Coil to the guide above, you will meet with guaranteed success as proven above.

I now have a difficult challenge to figure out if Tesla was on the wrong side with his pi point and working on that now.
I will be building a new coil on a new more open frame but adding one more turn to home in on the exact point as I still have the original wire ready to rewind.
Will advise as I proceed.
Hope you can understand what is documented above.
You MUST know your simple Maths if you are ever going to succeed in this business as I relate from empirical experience.
Good luck with your builds.
Will introduce myself over at Energetic and present this document as well.
Thanks.

Smokey

PS:
If anybody can see an obvious piece of data that I have overlooked, please respond.
David,
Would like to hear Eric's comments on this 'discovery'
Thanks.
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2012, 03:04 AM
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Good to see you here.
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2012, 03:23 AM
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Web000x Web000x is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
This Post is repeated at 'n6kph'.

A Discovery - Extra Coil:
I find repeatedly that simple Maths is a significant part of discovery and has allowed me to build many devices that others have failed at or not even bothered with, all because it appeared too hard.
I now have two Extra Coils, one considered wrong Math and the newer considered the correct Math.
Question to me was that the old worked and the new doesn't but why?
You may remember me saying that my first attempt at this coil worked as I was picking up my local 2 Kw station with the Headphone capacitor antenna some 8 to 10" away from the Extra Coil and it was proven to be a Telluric signal and not Hertzian.

The Math:
Old Coil data - works:
CalcF = 1.557 Mhz (1.557 x pi/2 = 2.4457) MULTIPLY
53 turns of 14 awg (same as Secondary wire size) with a diameter of 195.2mm
L = 30.829 meters (9.7244 Mhz)
Actual 1/4 wave Fres = 2.4655 Mhz AFTER F 1.557 Mhz
Error long by 198 Hz which means I need more turns over the 53 I did have but probably only one required and this should increase signal strength as well.

New Coil data - doesn't work:
Calc F = 1.557 Mhz (1.557 / pi/2 = 991.2 Khz) DIVIDE
125 turns of 21 awg with diameter of 195.2mm.
L = 75.61 meters (3.965 Mhz)
Actual 1/4 wave Fres = 991.4 Khz BEFORE F 1.557 Mhz

What this is saying is that you need to find the 1/4 Wave point from your number of turns and that needs to match your signal frequency MULTIPLIED by pi/2. (1.557 x (pi/2) = 2.4457 Mhz)

When I had completed the first coil I was happy with the Math and why I went ahead with the build.
It is only now, on analysis that the Math can be presented on paper and you can see what is happening here.
What I first built was, I feel, correct as the pi component is at the correct point AFTER the centre point going on to the full 1/4 wave and not before the 1/8th wave point.
This AFTER point is where Tesla's 'standing wave' is permitted/allowed to occur.
The second coil has its pi point BEFORE the 1/8 wave point and cannot resonate correctly and will be difficult to tune as is noted in the documentation many times.
What is of significance here is exactly where the pi point is (where your reference signal is) and is not a harmonic or octave or any of the regular resonance points but WITHIN THE FULL QUARTER WAVE at the 1/4 wave/pi/2 point and this is where your reference signal is located. (2.4457/(pi/2) = 1.557 Mhz)

If your Extra Coil does not work or is difficult to tune then the above will explain why.
If you then build a new Coil to the guide above, you will meet with guaranteed success as proven above.

I now have a difficult challenge to figure out if Tesla was on the wrong side with his pi point and working on that now.
I will be building a new coil on a new more open frame but adding one more turn to home in on the exact point as I still have the original wire ready to rewind.
Will advise as I proceed.
Hope you can understand what is documented above.
You MUST know your simple Maths if you are ever going to succeed in this business as I relate from empirical experience.
Good luck with your builds.
Will introduce myself over at Energetic and present this document as well.
Thanks.

Smokey

PS:
If anybody can see an obvious piece of data that I have overlooked, please respond.
David,
Would like to hear Eric's comments on this 'discovery'
Thanks.
Smokey,

I like the Energetic Forum 'style' so I will ask questions here. Also, Eric is more apt to see info posted on the forum and not the Yahoo group since he doesn't know how to navigate it. Discussion here in the open is going to preserve these conversations on one thread for Eric to see since there is no way I can remember all details that he might like to know. How did you arrive at your calculations? I only briefly looked but couldn't find how you got a calculated frequency of 1.557 MHz.

That being said, if you can present your findings in a manner that builds them up from Eric's initial design equations to where your experiments have taken you, I will refer Eric to this thread. He told me the other day that he wanted to check the forum again to see if there has been any activity so he is looking for somebody with a computer to use.

Geometric_Algebra has been the only one to be able to functionally correspond with Eric thru the postal service. Eric received a letter from Geometric_Algebra that included coil dimensions, measurements, errors, etc. and sent back a response that is on the Eric P. Dollard thread. If you send Eric something that is a worthwhile question, he will respond. However, since you seem to be on the other side of the world, you should document your results here on this forum either in this thread or Eric's thread so that you are using a medium that Eric is used to.

I would be more than willing to use my own printer and paper to get questions to Eric for everybody that doesn't have convenient access the the United States Postal Service. However, I have no money and my printer is out of ink. If somebody wants to help with these problems, I will print and mail all day long. Otherwise, hope that Eric can have access to the forum long enough to fully digest your post or you'll have to mail him from your location.

Sorry about the inconveniences,

Dave
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2012, 03:50 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Extra Coil Confirmation

Confirmation:
Here is the Tesla data based on the Colorado Spring's Notes:
Extra Diameter = 2.52m
One Turn 2pir = 7.9168m
Turns = 100 Total Length = 791.7m
Full Wave = 378.67 Khz
1/4 Wave = 94.6675 Khz
Operating Signal Point 94.6675 MULTIPLY pi/2 = 148.703 Khz
Where Tesla should have been working and NOT here:
94.6675 DIVIDE pi/2 = 60.267 Khz where he was working and supported in the CS Notes 'about 59 Khz'.

Think this is sufficient evidence to point to the base reason why the Extra Coil is so hard to tune and is very much not so at the AFTER and not BEFORE 1/8 Wave point.
It may have been difficult for Tesla to get to the higher frequency where he should and probably knew he should be working at and this is his compromise.
He may have also considered that what he was attempting to achieve would work from both sides and chose the DIVIDE path when he should have gone the MULTIPLY way.
Hope this makes it clear as to what is required with your Extra Coil to make it work.

Am satisfied now that this is the case and will rebuild my Extra Coil to the new dimensions which will be:
F = 1.557 Mhz MULTIPLY (pi/2) = 2.4457 Mhz = 1/4 Wave.
Full wave = 9.78292 Mhz = 30.644 meters
Diameter = 195.2mm (r = 97.6 mm)
1 Turn = 2pir = 613.23 mm
Number of Turns = 30644/613.23 = 49.97
Wire size, same as Secondary and 14 awg in my case.
Number of turns very close to my original figure of 53 but would suggest that you add about 5 extra turns and then trim or better to probe back on turns that you have cleared of insulation when you can get a Sig Gen set on the exact frequency of your station and then tune for maximum gain in the Headphones or on the Intensity meter.
Hope this explanation is now clear to everyone.

Will be honest and say that using 21 awg for the new Extra did not appear correct as I could not see being able to pump this frail device with any watts to achieve a goal.
This IS different!
Will now go build my new Extra Coil and make this fact for good as it has already been proven by empirical means.
I have Tesla nodding approval.
Thanks.

Smokey
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2012, 05:35 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Radio Station Frequency

David,
The 1.557 Mhz is my local Radio Station that I am tuning into.
If you follow my last Post it is fully exampled there and shows what I feel Tesla would like to have done but couldn't due to technical shortages of his equipment or he may have just gone the wrong way.

Wish I could help more from afar but not easy - I have 5 Computers here, all the old ones I have fixed their problems and sit here unused or just kept as data monitors.

Think this IS a significant discovery and just needs builders to first understand what I have proposed and then to build following my examples.
The important issue here is where your AM Radio Station sits in the 1/4 Wave and needs to be at the 0.637 point of the 1/4 Wave of your Coil.
From my previous example - 1.557/2.4457 = 0.637 or on the HIGH side of your local AM Radio Station signal
I will now go away and work on what that point is, as it must have some other significance besides pi.
The Tesla way was 1.557/991.2 = 1.5708 or better as a comparison 991.2/1.557 = 0.637 the same but on the LOWER side of your Radio signal.

I knew 0.637 was something to do with AC and here is the connection:

Measuring the Sine Wave

The Average value of a Sine Wave.
Note now the association here with pi and the average value of a Sine or AC wave and this in itself speaks volumes.
This is where the 'magnification' takes place.
Now that we have a 'something' to work with we may be able to make some considerable steps in evolving this Free Enegy that we seek in all of our Coil designs.
Hope you have all been able to follow this unravelling so to speak as it just simply now makes all that much sense.
I have a Coil to build.

As a side note, please note that I have been at Energetic since March 2008 sitting on the sidelines and waitimg for my moment.
Hopefully it has arrived.

Smokey
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2012, 07:47 AM
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some fun with math.
300,000,000 x Pi/2 = 300,000,000 x 1.5707 = 471,238,898.04
300,000,000/471,238,898.04 = 0.636619772
1/(Pi/2) = 0.636619772
2/Pi = 0.636619772
0.636619772 x (2 x Pi) "revolution" = 4 "radians"
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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2012, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
some fun with math.
300,000,000 x Pi/2 = 300,000,000 x 1.5707 = 471,238,898.04
300,000,000/471,238,898.04 = 0.636619772
1/(Pi/2) = 0.636619772
2/Pi = 0.636619772
0.636619772 x (2 x Pi) "revolution" = 4 "radians"
Not fun.

So it comes down to "A/(A*Pi/2)=0.63661977"
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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2012, 02:11 PM
xee2 xee2 is offline
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@ David G Dawson

Have you built an antenna using the same EPD design that Jake is using? If so how well does it work?
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2012, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jake View Post
Not fun.

So it comes down to "A/(A*Pi/2)=0.63661977"
why not fun?

I think you mean, 'A/(A(Pi/2)=0.636619772'

What I was getting at was that 0.6366.... is a function of Trig. As Smokey mentioned the A/C useage it's the rms multiplier value for 1/2 of the sine wave of a rectified wave for DC. and .707 is the full wave. a lot of these 'numbers' will factor back out and can seem 'magical', they do help in recognizing patterns and relations though.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 04-30-2012, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
David,
The 1.557 Mhz is my local Radio Station that I am tuning into.
If you follow my last Post it is fully exampled there and shows what I feel Tesla would like to have done but couldn't due to technical shortages of his equipment or he may have just gone the wrong way.
<snip<
Smokey
That's why I thought you chose 1.557 Mhz. I can get lucky sometimes Good to see you here Smokey! I've been on Bruce Perreault's list for something like 15 years and have seen you there as well as the OU forum. Always enjoy your posts. While I've built crystal radio's long ago I'm not really up to speed on this thread. Would you say your concept is anything like a scalar energy receiver?
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2012, 12:23 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Extra Coil detail

Quote:
Originally Posted by xee2 View Post
@ David G Dawson

Have you built an antenna using the same EPD design that Jake is using? If so how well does it work?
Yes, and it doesn't work.
My old design as per my instructions worked first off without any problems and was picking up the signal from the 1N34 probe head into high impedance Headphones from 8 to 10 " away from the Extra and this was on a piece of metal used as a neutralising capacitor in an old RF transmitter without any specific direction of alignment.
It was obvious that the coil was radiating as well as magnifying the signal and was of a Telluric nature.
It is very clear in Tesla's Colorado Springs Notes that the length of the Secondary be equal to the Extra and this is NOT the case in Eric/Jake's example but is in mine.
I will put up some pics of both so you can see what I am talking about.

Just getting used to the procedures here at Energetic and always thought it was a neat means of display and communication.

Busy day here building the 3rd Coil but will come back later and put my formula into a step by step instruction so that it can be easily followed.
I am/was most familiar with spreadsheets but will leave that to the keen ones like Jake if he would like to build a new sheet for this working proposal at some later date after I have the 3rd coil working.

The final Colorado Spring's organisation only had 17 turns on the Secondary but I am using 20 as instructed but have a tap at 17 for testing purposes.
I, like Eric, spent many hours digesting the CSNotes and have come away with a different theory than Eric which works.
Eric leaves me for dead with the engineering data side but I have intuition on my side which has worked very well in the past.
Thinking about my working theory and I need to progress on that from an engineering viewpoint.

I have spelt it all out in the Posts but may be difficult to follow.
No, Phi is not involved here so far as no connection has been found.

On the new coil I will allow for fine tuning for a peak as the last one was just as built and could probably have been improved considerably and will fit this stage into the final Math.
Currently reading Eric's 'The Tesla Transformer' and can see some new holes there that need filling.
Later on this.

Smokey
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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2012, 02:38 AM
xee2 xee2 is offline
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Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
Just getting used to the procedures here at Energetic and always thought it was a neat means of display and communication.
Thanks for the reply. For your information, you can post images here but the storage space is very small so it will fill up quick. This is probably best to start with. But you will need to use ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting and paste the link into your post here when your space is filled up. They now require setting up an account. Setting image size to 640x480 or 800x600 will fit on screen best. There is a preview button that allows you to check how your post will look before actually submitting the post.
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:10 AM
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Whats going to happen next?

I got my hands on a piece of copper flashing 59" x 7". That is about as good as it gets for me. Right size, Right volume, or close enough to start. This will be my primary capacitor and connecting lengths. My thought is a simple two plate capacitor.

cut it like this.. and the thinner strips solder to the primary.


By jastermake at 2012-04-30

BUT, before I cut...

What will the 2 turn primary and capacitor do to the resonant frequency of the secondary when I excite them both? I'll be using the same 1 turn strip and function generator I used to test the secondary?

What else should I consider when designing this capacitor? Please keep in mind this capacitor may play more than one role in this setup. I believe Eric called this capacitor the 'energy transformer' in one video.

So.... what will it do?


Last edited by jake : 05-01-2012 at 03:42 AM. Reason: imageshack its easy!!
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2012, 03:29 AM
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madhatter madhatter is offline
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Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
Yes, and it doesn't work.
My old design as per my instructions worked first off without any problems and was picking up the signal from the 1N34 probe head into high impedance Headphones from 8 to 10 " away from the Extra and this was on a piece of metal used as a neutralising capacitor in an old RF transmitter without any specific direction of alignment.
It was obvious that the coil was radiating as well as magnifying the signal and was of a Telluric nature.
It is very clear in Tesla's Colorado Springs Notes that the length of the Secondary be equal to the Extra and this is NOT the case in Eric/Jake's example but is in mine.
I will put up some pics of both so you can see what I am talking about.

Just getting used to the procedures here at Energetic and always thought it was a neat means of display and communication.

Busy day here building the 3rd Coil but will come back later and put my formula into a step by step instruction so that it can be easily followed.
I am/was most familiar with spreadsheets but will leave that to the keen ones like Jake if he would like to build a new sheet for this working proposal at some later date after I have the 3rd coil working.

The final Colorado Spring's organisation only had 17 turns on the Secondary but I am using 20 as instructed but have a tap at 17 for testing purposes.
I, like Eric, spent many hours digesting the CSNotes and have come away with a different theory than Eric which works.
Eric leaves me for dead with the engineering data side but I have intuition on my side which has worked very well in the past.
Thinking about my working theory and I need to progress on that from an engineering viewpoint.

I have spelt it all out in the Posts but may be difficult to follow.
No, Phi is not involved here so far as no connection has been found.

On the new coil I will allow for fine tuning for a peak as the last one was just as built and could probably have been improved considerably and will fit this stage into the final Math.
Currently reading Eric's 'The Tesla Transformer' and can see some new holes there that need filling.
Later on this.

Smokey
Jan 2, 1900:

New Extra coil, 98 turns last modification.

25' 11" turn length = 98.99" Dia coil.

Still a 1:1 coil and there is notation of various 'tap' points on the primary and secondary to bring them into resonance.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2012, 03:34 AM
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a note also in the CSN of Tesla on Picture V. Extra coil connected to the secondary at 3/4 turns from ground connection. any idea on what 3/4 turns means? 3/4 of the turn or 75% of the total number of turns?
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:12 AM
xee2 xee2 is offline
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Originally Posted by jake View Post
What will the 2 turn primary and capacitor do to the resonant frequency of the secondary when I excite them both?
When close together the inductance of each coil will be increased by the other coil. The coil with the highest Q will primarily effect self resonant frequency. You should set SRF of secondary then gradually move primary closer re-tuning the SRF of each coil as you move them together.

This is how I measure self resonant frequency.

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Old 05-01-2012, 08:54 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Extra Coil Math

Goint to be away for a week so will make an itemised listing of the Math now.

Crystal Set Iniative Extra Coil:
In brackets are the figures for my situation.

1. Write down the frequency of the local AM Radio Station you are building the Crystal Set to receive from. (1.557 Mhz)
2. Multiply this number by pi/2 - this is the 1/4 Wave frequency (2.4457 Mhz)
3. Multiply this number by 4 (9.7829 Mhz) - this is the Full Wave frequency
4. Use your Frequency & Wavelength calculator to find the total length of wire required - this is what I use:

FREQUENCY & WAVELENGTH CALCULATOR

My length of wire = 30.645 meters or 30645mm
I use the same size awg (14) as for the Secondary which means the Copper masses are equal for all of Primary/Secondary and Extra Coils.
Length of Secondary = length of Extra.

5. Calculate Coil diameter with We = 0.4 Ws (195.2mm)
6. Calculate 1 turn using 2pi r = (613.24mm)
7. Divide this number into your total length (30645/613.24 = 49.97) = number of Turns
Suggest at this point that you wind a few extra for tuning purposes and then with Headphones on, tune for a maximum by probing back along the coil.
8. Use another tin can about 6 to 12" away from your Extra Coil to hang your 1N34 probe onto, doesn't need to be oriented in any way.
Those of you with excessive local transmitters may be blown off the map so be warned.
Mine is only a 2 Kw.

If at step 2 you were to DIVIDE that number you would arrive at the point where both Eric/Jake's Spreadsheet & Tesla would be working at.
This is in my view the wrong point as it brings you back into a 1/8th Wave and not just before the 1/4 Wave where the 0.637 'average AC Wave' becomes a significant factor.
This is the exact point where your local AM Radio Station sits at.

That's it.
Will work on the theory while I am away as I need to know the electrics behind all of this.
David,
Would be appreciated if you could get this Post to Eric as he may be able to see what is happening here.
This one he can simply copy down the instructions on paper from the phone.
First time I have ever seen a pi and average AC wave association.
Bottom line is that this arrangement works.
Goint to enjoy this holiday, first in about 5 years.
May call in while I am away.
Thanks.

Smokey
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2012, 10:27 AM
David G Dawson David G Dawson is offline
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Why Hard to Tune?

Have now drawn both the Multiply and Divide situations out on paper and you can see why the Eric/Tesla situation will make it difficult to tune.
In the MULTIPLY way which is my way, the 0.637 'average AC wave' point is on the UPCURVE of the frequency waveshape slope.

In the DIVIDE way that same point is on the DOWNCURVE slope.
So what we are seeing is an opportunity to tune in the first instance and only a brief and parting opportunity in the second instance.
That is sufficient evidence for me as mine required NO tuning where the other is said 'to be difficult to tune' and there is your answer as to why above.

OK have attached the drawing and hope it comes out viewable.
Math also shows the difference in length involved and how it is calculated.
Have always had this notion that all of this should not be difficult if we are to work at the correct operating points.
Thanks.

Smokey

Last edited by David G Dawson : 09-18-2012 at 08:51 AM.
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2012, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by T-rex View Post
5) PI over two; this factor appears twice in the Crystal Radio Initiative, C.R.I. The (20%) secondary coil "effective" propogation velocity is the velocity of light in the space in which it occupies. Here the Pi over two factoris an offsetof a unit value to shorten the winding to compensate for the heavy external loading that the secondary is loaded with, that is, the external inductance and capacitance from the earth and extra coil connections. The aspect ratio of 1 to 1 on the extra coil gives an "effective" propogation of 187% the velocity of light, hence the winding length must be made greater in order to get a quarter wave resonance at a higher speed. This is brought down to Pi over 2 percent, 157%, the velocity of light to compensate for the burden upon the extra coil, this mostly arising from the dielectric upon which this coil is wound. The secondary is Pi over two shorter, the extra coil is Pi over two longer. Golly Mr. Wizard that's Pi squared over four! Do not hunt for magic where it is not, this is all experimental. So go experiment.
This is all I know about the extra coil according to Eric.
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by David G Dawson View Post
Have now drawn both the Multiply and Divide situations out on paper and you can see why the Eric/Tesla situation will make it difficult to tune.
In the MULTIPLY way which is my way, the 0.637 'average AC wave' point is on the UPCURVE of the frequency waveshape slope.

In the DIVIDE way that same point is on the DOWNCURVE slope.
So what we are seeing is an opportunity to tune in the first instance and only a brief and parting opportunity in the second instance.
That is sufficient evidence for me as mine required NO tuning where the other is said 'to be difficult to tune' and there is your answer as to why above.

OK have attached the drawing and hope it comes out viewable.
Math also shows the difference in length involved and how it is calculated.
Have always had this notion that all of this should not be difficult if we are to work at the correct operating points.
Thanks.

Smokey
the 0.637 is not the AC average but the rms of 1/2 of the sine wave of a DC rectified current. AC average or rms of a full wave is 0.707 or sine45*, cos45*.

If the extra coil is designed around C and harmonics at velocities of C it will only continue to receive hertzian waves. The extra coil dimensions that Eric supplied should be useless in reception of hertz transmission in air.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:04 PM
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1/4 and 3/4 according to EPD

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-rex View Post
@All struggling with 1/4 and 3/4

There is no inductance, capacitance, or wavelength. The wavlenght I gave of c/omega is not the standard wavelength. The standard way is c/f, then take 1/4th of that. That's the electromagnetic wavelength. The coils are not electromagnetic devices. Wire length is calculated by c/omega. A factor of 2pi is involved, so it's c/2*pi*f. There is no quarter. This gives a wirelength that is now 2 over pi shorter. There is no inductance and capacity to compensate or think about, the coil is both. They are not separated. Read the article in 7 parts just put in, paying special attention to the section labeled disruptive discharges. In the Colorado Springs all you want to look for is the final dimensions of the Magnifying Transmitter. Other than some circuit diagrams and final dimensions there's not much there of any use for coil design. Tesla was figuring stuff out as he was going along, he was struggling to figure out what was going on, he had nothing to work with. So read the Colorado Springs notes and share in his confusion.
I miss the old thread and all the goodies hidden in it.
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