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Old 02-28-2012, 05:55 AM
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Alum conversion for lead acid batteries

I would like to start this thread for sharing experiences (successes and failures) with converting regular lead acid batteries.
Personally, I have seen both. Failure was likely caused by using very poor battery which wouldn't charge conventionally.

There was a thread which became dormant - Lead/Acid to Alcaline/Lead battery conversion - useful?
Just wondering if anyone have done more tests.

Thanks
V

Last edited by blackchisel97 : 02-28-2012 at 06:48 AM. Reason: link
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Old 02-28-2012, 11:46 AM
Joit Joit is offline
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I only talked with someone again before a while about it and he gave us again the right Description from the right Alum
" Alum, KAl(SO4)2.12H2O. The stuff used to keep pickles crisp. "

Molar mass of KAl(SO4)2*12H2O - Chemistry Online Education
Potassium Alum (KAL(SO4)2.12H2O) - China Potassium Alum (Kal(So4)2.12h2o),Potassium Alum,Aluminium Potassium Sulfate in Inorganic Salt
Potash Alum (99% / 98% / 92%) - China Potash Alum,Potassium Alum,Potash Alum White Alum in Additive

He had even a good Page where you can order it, but unfortunately i lost it.
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:55 PM
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I have converted a couple batteries to alum. These were old batteries and
were probably too far gone to work. Voltage did increase after conversion.
Have not tried it with new batteries as John Bedini did. He has said that doing
it with new batteries have made them last 14 years and they are still working.

I used one as a trade to buy a new battery at Wal Mart. I still have the other
one which I tried to use as the number 3 "bad battery" for the 3 battery charging system. IT DID NOT WORK, Turion emphasizes that lead acid batteries
must be used for it to work. Does anyone have information if these type of batteries work with SSG charging ?

George
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Old 02-28-2012, 04:52 PM
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Thank you for your feedback Joit & FRC. I also invited mklimesh to repost his data here to avoid hijacking Earth Light thread however, it is related since we started with using alum to protect magnesium in early cells. What I found is alot of confusion regarding alum and the results of people testing vary. I'm just as guilty since I did refer to such as "converting to alkaline battery" - which isn't correct term. Alum is considered a salt and as such cannot be defined as acidic or alkaline per se. Also, there are various alum products available, such as silicates, sodium, potassium,magnesium - epson salt and ammonium. While some will improve poor battery performance, they'll not work alone as a electrolyte replacement. I tried couple; potassium and ammonium (McCormick). Potassium didn't work well but my battery wasn't great either. My other test was with ammonium (ammonium aluminum sulfate) and it was successful. Battery sits (rests) a bit lower than acid filled but it seems to have same (if not better) capacity. I don't have access to West Mountain Radio's Computerized Battery Analyzer and my tests are just simple.
I designated an old useless battery as a "dump" for acid and returned to recycling center when became full. As Matthiew pointed out once, it isn't acid but led particles in it which aren't suppose to be dumped into environment. Acid can be neutralized and diluted but led will stay in. Other way would be to let it evaporate water and reduce the amount of fluid to be dumped into "recycling" container - dead battery.
I used 1:8 - 1:10 mixing ratio but John Bedini reported best results with even higher concentration. One more observation; there is no point of trying to convert poor battery. Alum will not remove short cell or heavy sulfation from plates. If pulse charger cannot fix the alum won't do it either.

Thanks
Vtech
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Old 02-28-2012, 07:37 PM
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Alum conversion for lead acid batteries

This is a repost from the Earth Light thread.

In dec 2007 I purchased a new U1P-7 lawn and tractor battery and dumped the acid mix out. I refilled it with a alum solution (McCormick's Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate and distilled water). I charged and discharged it 5 times using 'West Mountain Radio's Computerized Battery Analyzer (CBA)'. It then sat on a shelf untill sept 2009 when I repeated the tests again. It showed a standing voltage of aprox 11.6volts and the discharge curve continued below where it would if it was a lead acid. I took it off the shelf again and am charging it now to run another round of tests. The pics show charts of the 2007 and 2009 tests.

The battery has been charged and is on the CBA discharging.

Mike Klimesh
Attached Images
File Type: jpg alum_dec_2007_.jpg (56.5 KB, 80 views)
File Type: jpg alum_sept_2009.jpg (42.0 KB, 78 views)
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:18 PM
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Alum Batteries

Vtech,
Thanks for posting this over here. I have 5 Alum batteries here and can run some charts if you want.
I have taken the batteries out of cars here. I have one other one that has been sitting outside frozen.
Is Seamonkey welcome here with his comments?
John B
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:25 PM
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few questions

Thanks for posting mklimesh
I have couple of questions to compare with my results:
- did you use baking soda or just distilled water to flush battery?
- what ratio alum/water did you use?
- did you notice anything different (from LAB charging) during each charging, such as time, Amp?
- how low you're taking it down with a load (resting V after discharging)?
- what is the highest resting voltage after (charging cycle) you're able to get.

Thanks
Vtech
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:16 AM
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Chucks Alum conversion experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchisel97 View Post
Thanks for posting mklimesh
I have couple of questions to compare with my results:
- did you use baking soda or just distilled water to flush battery?
- what ratio alum/water did you use?
- did you notice anything different (from LAB charging) during each charging, such as time, Amp?
- how low you're taking it down with a load (resting V after discharging)?
- what is the highest resting voltage after (charging cycle) you're able to get.

Thanks
Vtech
Flushing: After acid was drained and battery shaken by hand 5 times. Left it upside down on 5 gal bucket for a few hrs (T105) Shaken more. Then used garden hose to flush for about 20 minutes 3 times (Filled let set 20 minutes, drained 3 times and shaken) Let sit for about 24hrs with caps off to help evaporate. Then mixed 2 cups Alum to 1 gallon of distilled water (HOT) until disolved. Then filled battery with hot solution then charged to 15.4Volts (Bedini charger). This only works if you have a semi decent battery to work with. Heavily sulfated/ shorted batteries are useless to try.
I have converted 10 batteries. If the battery was realy bad to start it stayed that way. If it was semi decent then it worked well.
Discharges deeper.
Charges faster then lead acid
NO CORROSION ON POST.
Discharge to 10.5 volts
Resting voltage after charge: 12.4volts roughly
John is making a video that will address some of these questions he will post in the next day or so. Hope this helps

Chuck Hupp
Energenx RnD
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Vtech,
Thanks for posting this over here. I have 5 Alum batteries here and can run some charts if you want.
I have taken the batteries out of cars here. I have one other one that has been sitting outside frozen.
Is Seamonkey welcome here with his comments?
John B
Thank you John for PM and joining. Yes, definitely, if that's not too much trouble for you I would love to see the charts to compare characteristics and I'm very curious about the frozen one. I don't have battery analyzer at my disposal. I believe I'm not the only one successful with pulse charging and rejuvenating effects in batteries and also believe, that this maybe good way to build efficient battery banks, either as a backup or storage (solar) . They can be discharged much deeper as lead acid (similar to deep cycle) without any harm. Also, I didn't notice any sulfation/degradation of plates. What I saw instead was some sort of crystalline formation which may explain the way they behave. I left some of my stuff behind when moved (despite pulling 53" trailer ) and most batteries "didn't catch the bus".
I need to call one supplier and find out if their alum is the "right" one. They're in US and have free US shipping (Canada $15). Their price gets better with volume - Alum Powder - Used for Pickling, baking and as a preservative - My Spice Sage

Thanks
Vtech
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck H View Post
Flushing: After acid was drained and battery shaken by hand 5 times. Left it upside down on 5 gal bucket for a few hrs (T105) Shaken more. Then used garden hose to flush for about 20 minutes 3 times (Filled let set 20 minutes, drained 3 times and shaken) Let sit for about 24hrs with caps off to help evaporate. Then mixed 2 cups Alum to 1 gallon of distilled water (HOT) until dissolved. Then filled battery with hot solution then charged to 15.4Volts (Bedini charger). This only works if you have a semi decent battery to work with. Heavily sulfated/ shorted batteries are useless to try.
I have converted 10 batteries. If the battery was really bad to start it stayed that way. If it was semi decent then it worked well.
Discharges deeper.
Charges faster then lead acid
NO CORROSION ON POST.
Discharge to 10.5 volts
Resting voltage after charge: 12.4volts roughly
John is making a video that will address some of these questions he will post in the next day or so. Hope this helps

Chuck Hupp
Energenx RnD
Thank you Chuck This is very valuable feedback and much appreciated. I also noticed no corrosion on either of posts, faster charging and sitting a bit lower than LAB, which fooled me at first conversion attempt and resulted in wrong conclusion.


Vtech
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:12 PM
alvarohn alvarohn is offline
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batts

Hello ALL!!

I am intrested in the crystallization of lead acid batts when charged and discharged at the same time (like in JB '84 machine)

Is this a bad thing? how bad? machine won't work affter the battery crystallizes?

and, regarding this thread, Would a alum converted batt crystallizes also when charged and discharged at the same time?

best to all!!

Alvaro H
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:44 PM
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It has been posted before -

@alvarohn I think John would be the best person to address your question. The way I see charging and discharging happening at the same time is like shifting from forward to reverse while vehicle is still in motion. It takes a pulse (bunch of electrons) to get ions moving in one direction. They have inertia, which is beneficial since they don't have to be pushed constantly to move (similar to driving DC motor with heavy flywheel by short pulses). Charging and discharging process means the ions moving "right" or "left". What happens when you try to achieve both at the same time? With good timing you can "give back" to the battery while she's disconnected from input but after some time the battery will fail.
The proper way would be to use a swapper rotate banks so they're either charged or powering a load but never both at the same time.
Again, this is just my opinion on this subject and it may not be 100% correct.

Alum converted batteries form crystalline structure on the plates too but it is different. I didn't allow enough time to compare long term effect in both, acid and alum filled.
Thanks
V
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Old 03-01-2012, 03:16 AM
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Alum battery conversion

Vtech,
I have just about got the video on the Alum battery conversion done will be posting the video tomorrow as I ran out of time today. It is in two parts because it is very long as I go through the loading at different levels so you can see how the battery responds, I also show conventional charging and the rejuvenator charging.
John B
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Old 03-01-2012, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Vtech,
I have just about got the video on the Alum battery conversion done will be posting the video tomorrow as I ran out of time today. It is in two parts because it is very long as I go through the loading at different levels so you can see how the battery responds, I also show conventional charging and the rejuvenator charging.
John B
Thanks alot John I sent you PM since my mail to you bounced back.

Vtech
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:05 PM
alvarohn alvarohn is offline
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tnx

Tnx VTech I will read the JB's battery bible.

I hope you are great! I am the same guy that contacted you by youtube

best!

Alvaro H
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Old 03-01-2012, 05:16 PM
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Alum Battery Conversion Part1and Part 2

Alum Battery Conversion Part1 and Part2,
This is a converted Ford Mustang battery 590 cold cranking amps that is about 30 Amp Hr battery. Testing on a battery that was junk. but no shorted cells. You make up your own mind if you want to do this experiment.
Part 1 Lead Acid Alum Battery Conversion Part1.wmv - YouTube
Part2 Lead Acid Alum Battery Conversion Part2.wmv - YouTube
John B
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Old 03-01-2012, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
Alum Battery Conversion Part1 and Part2,
This is a converted Ford Mustang battery 590 cold cranking amps that is about 30 Amp Hr battery. Testing on a battery that was junk. but no shorted cells. You make up your own mind if you want to do this experiment.
Part 1 Lead Acid Alum Battery Conversion Part1.wmv - YouTube
Part2 Lead Acid Alum Battery Conversion Part2.wmv - YouTube
John B
Just watched both videos, amazing!
I think I am going to need more alum....
Thanks for sharing!
N8
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:48 PM
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Thank you

Just finished watching first part. This is way beyond what I was expecting to see Sweet!
Thank you John for time and effort. I need to gather some wood so I won't freeze and will watch second part when I come back.
This is very promising.

Vtech
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Old 03-01-2012, 11:27 PM
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chuck H chuck H is offline
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60 year old battery!

Yes! A virgin lead acid battery never activated built in 1951!
Well, were gonna activate her with Alum. Charge it. And put it through the paces. Here is the video. More videos to follow...

Chuck

1951 lead acid battery never activated.wmv - YouTube
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:13 AM
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Great presentation

Just finished watching second part. I knew it is working because I tried but I never imagined what I just saw
You couldn't push and pull lead acid the way you did with alum electrolyte, without violating such small battery. I've seen characteristics (graph) od NiKad and it is similar. I'm gonna watch again later. Thank you John and Chuck for your effort It was well worth it and much appreciated.
I love your PC analyzer.
Where did you find those '51 batteries

Thanks
Vtech
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Old 03-02-2012, 05:11 AM
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1951 Willard battery

That is a 1951 Willard battery that I bought back when I was doing pulse charging experiments. I bought these batteries from a surplus house in June1999 for about 15 dollars each they were 6 volt batteries that I glued together to make 12 volts. Chuck will run the experiment tomorrow and I will start filming it. We will see what happens with a battery that is not formed. Normally you would form these batteries for 48 hrs. So Chuck will be forming them with Alum instead of Sulphuric Acid. If the sun would shine I would show the Tesla Solar Charger doing this forming from the sun.
John B

Last edited by John_Bedini : 03-02-2012 at 05:12 AM. Reason: Correction
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Old 03-02-2012, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Bedini View Post
That is a 1951 Willard battery that I bought back when I was doing pulse charging experiments. I bought these batteries from a surplus house in June1999 for about 15 dollars each they were 6 volt batteries that I glued together to make 12 volts. Chuck will run the experiment tomorrow and I will start filming it. We will see what happens with a battery that is not formed. Normally you would form these batteries for 48 hrs. So Chuck will be forming them with Alum instead of Sulphuric Acid. If the sun would shine I would show the Tesla Solar Charger doing this forming from the sun.
John B
Sounds great John. I don't gamble but I'll make an exception and bet that they'll outperform "themselves" while filled with alum Too bad they don't make them "transparent" anymore. It would be much easier than cutting case open to examine plates.
I forgot to call supplier and verify that what he has is the right stuff I don't have enough left, even for a small battery.

Update: Just called supplier - Myspice.com, they're going to email me datasheet on monday. All they know is that this is ammonium sulfate. Most likely the right stuff but I don't want to order 20lb no knowing for sure. I used McCormick before but it is getting expensive buying 1 Oz jars.

Thanks
Vtech

Last edited by blackchisel97 : 03-02-2012 at 07:20 PM. Reason: edit
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:52 PM
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Just called another 2 companies. They don't know the formula and don't have datasheet. They don't know if this is potassium alum, ferric alum or ammonium alum. All they know is that this is aluminum sulfate, food grade. Guess I have to wait till monday.

V
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:05 PM
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alum

Hi amazing video!!!

I would also like to now about what alum is, I searched what alum is in spanish and there where a few kinds like V said.

Thanks!!!

Alvaro Hernandorena
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alvarohn View Post
Hi amazing video!!!

I would also like to now about what alum is, I searched what alum is in spanish and there where a few kinds like V said.

Thanks!!!

Alvaro Hernandorena
The one I'm referring to is Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate - (NH4)Al(SO4)2 x 12 H2O also known as ammonium alum.
Ammonium aluminium sulfate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks
V
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:39 PM
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Alum

Aluminum sulfate hydrate: Al2(SO4)314H2O
C.A.S. 10043-01-3 (Aluminum sulfate)
pH of 1% Solution (approx.) 3.5
Bulk Density (Ground), lbs./cu. ft. 63 - 71
(Powdered), lbs./cu. ft. 38 - 45
Dry Alum Assay as Al2(SO4)314H2O, % >99
Aluminum Assay as Al2O3, % 17.0 (min)
Alkalis and Alkaline Earths, % 0.22 (max)
Ammonium Salts Passes Test
Fluoride (F), % <0.0009
Lead (Pb), ppm <0.5
Selenium (Se), % <0.00005
John B
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:41 AM
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Thank you John
That's seems to be the same stuff as these guys carry - Alum Powder - Used for Pickling, baking and as a preservative - My Spice Sage

Alum Powder (Food Grade), 1 lb

Aluminum Sulfate | ChemistryStore.com

Vtech
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2012, 02:36 AM
mauiflipper mauiflipper is offline
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Thanks

Thank you John & Chuck. I am really looking forward to seeing your results on activating that 1951 battery with Alum. I am getting ready to order 24 UL-16's from Interstate and I found out that I can order them special, from the factory, dry (without lead acid in them). I am seriously considering this for a new solar installation in UpCountry Maui at my parents house. No nasty Sulfuric fumes is a huge plus. I have two of the Rejuvenators, so I could charge 4 at a time.

Do you guys know of the hydrometer tests will work in a similar manner as a lead acid?

Also, I just realized that my e-Max scooter has Silicone based batteries in them. Those batteries responded VERY well to radiant charging.

Daryl
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:13 AM
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blackchisel97 blackchisel97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mauiflipper View Post
Thank you John & Chuck. I am really looking forward to seeing your results on activating that 1951 battery with Alum. I am getting ready to order 24 UL-16's from Interstate and I found out that I can order them special, from the factory, dry (without lead acid in them). I am seriously considering this for a new solar installation in UpCountry Maui at my parents house. No nasty Sulfuric fumes is a huge plus. I have two of the Rejuvenators, so I could charge 4 at a time.

Do you guys know of the hydrometer tests will work in a similar manner as a lead acid?

Also, I just realized that my e-Max scooter has Silicone based batteries in them. Those batteries responded VERY well to radiant charging.

Daryl
Hydrometer reading are based on fluid density which is different with alum.
Look in John's video when he points to the test eye in the battery.
Don't forget to stop by and share your experience

Thanks
Vtech
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:54 PM
mauiflipper mauiflipper is offline
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hydrometer

When I do my first test conversion on a new battery. I will work out a chart for Alum hydrometer readings.

Daryl
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