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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2012, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mauiflipper View Post
When I do my first test conversion on a new battery. I will work out a chart for Alum hydrometer readings.

Daryl
Good idea,Thanks Daryl
I just ordered 5lb. Will take couple days from US. They have free shipping within US and free 1oz of any spice from their inventory + free sample
I don't have any "virgin" battery atm but few formatted LAB to choose from.

Thanks
Vtech
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:59 PM
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Lead Acid Conversion Alum Battery Virgin Never Formed Since 1951

In this video I show how we have taken a 1951 Willard Battery and formed it to work on Alum
electrolyte and some of the tricks to do this, I show that it does not suffer the same problem of deep discharge as I take this battery down to .5 volts. Happy to share this information with
everybody.
John B

Lead Acid Conversion Alum Battery Virgin Never Formed Since 1951

Lead Acid Conversion Alum Battery Virgin Part 1.wmv - YouTube

Lead Acid Conversion Alum Battery Virgin Never Formed Part 2.wmv - YouTube

Lead Acid Conversion Alum Battery Virgin Never Formed Part3.wmv - YouTube


Please give it time to process as they are big uploads.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:45 AM
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This is very valuable information. I just finished watching all parts. It's looking good. I never had a chance to try alum conversion on dry battery before. Those I did were desulfated/ rejuvenated scrap batteries with acid removed and rinsed well with rain water (I was too cheap to use distilled for purpose of cleaning ) and re filled with alum solution. After watching your videos I came to the conclusion (which was brewing in my head before) that such process has great potential to use reclaimed batteries in solar applications, since they can be safely discharged to 10.5V. Something which cannot be done with regular LAB's without hurting them. I'll see if I can get my hands on some forklift or golf cart batteries and convert them to alum. One think which always bothered me when dealing with acid was corrosion at both posts (either green/blue or non conductive, glass like) as well as wet spots around the vent caps. They often appear few days after charging and I have to clean them with soapy water. It would be nice for change not to have to deal with this. Same nuisance with rusted battery tray in every few years old vehicle. My first car was 1964 VW and 6V battery was under the rear seat. Pain in the b*** to clean it.
Just got datasheet from supplier. I already ordered this morning but they confirmed the right stuff.

Thank you John and Chuck I really enjoyed this video material.

Vtech
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2012, 06:07 AM
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John, I have a question. What would you suggest when dealing with older battery? (I mean decent one, not crap with short or bent cells etc.)

- restore with rejuvenator/ dump acid/ rinse/ fill with alum solution or
- dump acid/ rinse/ fill with alum solution/ run few cycles of charge/load.

What I did before was the first one. My logic behind was to clean plates and format with radiant charger first. In other words get the battery impedance down and bring it's capacity as high as possible. Then, dump acid with all impurities, rinse thoroughly and fill with 10% alum solution.
Is this the right way of doing it?

Thank you
Vtech
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:14 AM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
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Those were very informative videos John, well worth watching by all interested in how to prepare and load test.

After watching the first one, it fired me up to try out the alum idea. Possibly unfortunately, I didn't see the pre-forming with acid section before beginning though. The cell sizes in the other thread would mean a sort of crossover...this was to be a pills bottle sized cell. Mainly that's through lack of resources to go ahead and convert my 2 car batteries. Experience is always useful though.

Using burnt copper and galvanized steel, a 1:10 solution with rainwater was used.
Normally, such a cell, without alum, will produce around 0.8V and 1mA
I charged it with a 12V battery for a few minutes and ended up with just over 1V, but a good constant 12mA.
It would run a Joule Thief without issue. Exactly the same thing, but with no alum, will run a 'Penny' type ultra low power flashing LED oscillator, yet no way would they touch this JT that needs 10mA.
Then, the copper was swapped to a piece of graphite and, surprised the heck out of me, 2.7V initial charge before settling to about 1.8V after half an hour.
A bigger surface area of graphite (or other positive electrode) needs to be used for better amperage, but i'm very satisfied with todays tests.
No idea about magnesium or anything else yet.

The steel has a charcoal colour to it now and charge retention improves with each discharge and charge. No idea if the steel change even relates to what happens to lead though.
Future charging will be with an SSG, as I doubt the conventional 12V is very healthy on these 'plates'.

Here's a video of the cell and what I did, including the Joule Thief test:
Alum rainwater cell - good 2.7V initial charge - YouTube
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2012, 08:20 AM
mauiflipper mauiflipper is offline
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OK John, so I am trying to understand what you said about forming the plates on a new, unformed battery. I heard you say to form the plates with a weak Sulphuric Acid solution and then to add the Alum after forming. Here's what I would love to know:

1.) When you said to "add the Alum after forming", did you mean to dump the Acid first that you used to do the forming?

2.) When you purchase a new deep cycle battery (like an L16) from a place like Interstate, are the plates already formed/crystalized?
a.) If not, forming the plates using your method with a Rejuvenator, will make how much of a difference as far as the Amp Hour capacity of the new battery?
b.) If so, is it best to just dump out the stock sulphuric acid, switch to the Alum mixture and be done or cycle it a few times with a Rejuvenator first and then change to the Alum mixture?

3.) If I can acquire batteries that are not formed and never had Acid in them, would it be that much better?

Thanks,

Daryl
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2012, 04:34 PM
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You must cause a differential between the two lead plates

Mauifipper,
You must cause a differential between the two lead plates. Normal Lead Acid batteries are formed at the factory in a big tank. Then the plates are assembled. Then they are filled with Acid or used as a dry charge battery that you add acid to. With the battery I show in the video, was never formed, the military did that when they were activated. So to make the battery with alum work you must cause the two plates to be different from each other. So the trick to forming this is to add to the alum solution 1/4 mix of alum and acid until you form it. after that you use the battery normal adding just alum water in place of distilled water. You will never see a hydrometer reading on this battery. If it is a regular car battery you do not need to do this.
John B
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2012, 04:54 PM
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building a lead Acid battery

Mauifipper,
Go read this book on building a lead Acid battery it will help you understand what forming is.
http://rawfire.torche.com/~opcom/tbe...lectrician.pdf
John B
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2012, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider2732 View Post
Those were very informative videos John, well worth watching by all interested in how to prepare and load test.

After watching the first one, it fired me up to try out the alum idea. Possibly unfortunately, I didn't see the pre-forming with acid section before beginning though. The cell sizes in the other thread would mean a sort of crossover...this was to be a pills bottle sized cell. Mainly that's through lack of resources to go ahead and convert my 2 car batteries. Experience is always useful though.

Using burnt copper and galvanized steel, a 1:10 solution with rainwater was used.
Normally, such a cell, without alum, will produce around 0.8V and 1mA
I charged it with a 12V battery for a few minutes and ended up with just over 1V, but a good constant 12mA.
It would run a Joule Thief without issue. Exactly the same thing, but with no alum, will run a 'Penny' type ultra low power flashing LED oscillator, yet no way would they touch this JT that needs 10mA.
Then, the copper was swapped to a piece of graphite and, surprised the heck out of me, 2.7V initial charge before settling to about 1.8V after half an hour.
A bigger surface area of graphite (or other positive electrode) needs to be used for better amperage, but i'm very satisfied with todays tests.
No idea about magnesium or anything else yet.

The steel has a charcoal colour to it now and charge retention improves with each discharge and charge. No idea if the steel change even relates to what happens to lead though.
Future charging will be with an SSG, as I doubt the conventional 12V is very healthy on these 'plates'.

Here's a video of the cell and what I did, including the Joule Thief test:
Alum rainwater cell - good 2.7V initial charge - YouTube
Hey Slider, nice work!
After getting a look at your video, I went ahead and did a very similar test, and have gotten great results so far.
I mixed a 10:1 sterile water/alum solution, and just used copper and what appears to be aluminum (found it in a cabinet of random scrap, so it could be something else, but it is light weight, and looks like aluminum anyway )
I also have a large piece of what looks like some kind of charcoal pencil, though it doesn't mark very well (also found it in my house when we moved in, so not really sure exactly what it's made of, but it's clearly some kind of carbon). Right now, I have the single strip of aluminum as my negative, and a half round piece of copper tubing I cut, with the carbon rod (as far as I know...) touching the copper plate, and right now, without charging this cell at all, I am getting 1V and 6.5mA loaded on the same oscillator I use to test the cell I made in the Bedini Earth light thread.
The LED appears to be full brightness, or at least you can't look directly at it, cause it's too bright!
I am interested to see what happens when I apply a charge to this cell, but to be making that kind of output for this very quick and dirty test, is pretty cool.
great little experiment, and lots of fun to see working. I will try and charge this cell a bit later, but for now, I want to see how long it takes to start seeing a voltage or current drop. So far, this thing is steady as a rock, and when it starts to drop, I will then charge it a bit on my SSG, and see if I can't get it to hold a better charge.

without having to use lead in a battery like this, you could very easily and very cheaply make cells that will run useful loads, right at home, and if it doesn't corrode like a normal battery does, I can't see a downside here!


N8

Funny thing, in the time it took me to type out this post, the current draw went up on the meter, and it is now sitting at the same voltage, but drawing 7mA, up from 6.5mA...
isn't it supposed to be going the other way? just too much fun!

Last edited by Neight : 03-06-2012 at 05:42 PM.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2012, 07:08 PM
mauiflipper mauiflipper is offline
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Thank you John. This morning I realized that I missed the first two videos about differentiating the plates. They answered all my questions and you clarified it even further with your personal response. Also, thanks for the link, I will read the section on battery forming. The entire book looks pretty darn interesting.

So basically, it's best to just get the batteries pre-formed from the factory. Fully charge the batteries with the rejuvenator, dump the acid, rinse, repeat, repeat, repeat and put in the alum mixture.

The Xantrex Inverters we use will allow me to set the cut out voltage as low as 42 volts in a 48 volt bank. That would be the equivalent in 10.5 volts on a 12 volt bank. I think this just might work!

The Xantrex charge controllers will allow to to use a 2 stage or 3 stage charging method and also allow me to customize all voltage points, including the equalizing voltage. Do you think a 3 stage is really necessary with slum, since alum will allow the batteries to charge faster?

Daryl
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2012, 07:35 PM
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Battery Secrets

Peter's Battery Secrets lecture is the companion to the videos that John has posted here: Battery Secrets
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2012, 10:46 PM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
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@Neight...good to hear of your results. Surprising results there for non charging and it would be useful to see a vid of your setup. Someone may then be able to identify your mystery metal too.

This is all an offshoot to what, I believe, the thread is intended to be about and I don't want to sidetrack.

Kyle Carrington appears to have hit the nail on the head, in a reply on the above video, regarding rain water - acid rain !
The acid/alum may be forming the cell here and I can say that was by accident if it is. Next would be to tip that mixture and use purified water and alum. Will read the .pdf link above and research more.
I'll make some more cells when my wife gets paid and replicate. But also use control cells of straight purified water and of purified with alum. Rebuilding an SSG at the moment, for charge tests.

Acid rain is obviously cheaper than actual battery acid and it would be good to use a 'natural' source, so maybe it has relevance here.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2012, 12:39 AM
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Neight Neight is offline
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Originally Posted by Slider2732 View Post
@Neight...good to hear of your results. Surprising results there for non charging and it would be useful to see a vid of your setup. Someone may then be able to identify your mystery metal too.

This is all an offshoot to what, I believe, the thread is intended to be about and I don't want to sidetrack.

Kyle Carrington appears to have hit the nail on the head, in a reply on the above video, regarding rain water - acid rain !
The acid/alum may be forming the cell here and I can say that was by accident if it is. Next would be to tip that mixture and use purified water and alum. Will read the .pdf link above and research more.
I'll make some more cells when my wife gets paid and replicate. But also use control cells of straight purified water and of purified with alum. Rebuilding an SSG at the moment, for charge tests.

Acid rain is obviously cheaper than actual battery acid and it would be good to use a 'natural' source, so maybe it has relevance here.
I agree, this is sort of in between threads, so I wont drag this out much further. I would like to say I am getting some color change on the cathode I used here, it turned very dark, and that is with purified water, so there is a reaction taking place.
I did put my cell on an SSG charger for about 4 hours (accidentally fell asleep, really didn't want to leave it like that for long...) and got some surprising results. The anode has started breaking chunks off, and they are attaching themselves on the cathode, much like when you make a simple HHO gen with metals. I am also getting lots of bubbles off the cathode, both while running and charging. The chunks of anode also nearly made a bridge between it and the cathode. The alum solution has gotten dark enough that I can't really see through the glass anymore, without some light source behind the glass.
The cell was putting out 2V even, though it has quickly settled down to just under 1.5V. It will run a three LED joule thief I built, that none of my other cells so far would light. It also runs my 7 color LED joule ringer, though it wont light the green LED on the secondary windings I put on the toroid.
It runs the super bright 10mm LED on my test oscillator at full blinding brightness. This could easily drive an LED flashlight made with a joule thief or joule ringer circuit.
I have to clear up my workbench again, but I will try and make a video and post it up as an edit to this post when it's uploaded.

N8
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2012, 08:24 PM
Slider2732 Slider2732 is offline
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Looking forward to the vid

Well, this thread doesn't seem to be getting much traffic, so i'll post an update here.
The graphite sliver was great for voltage, as shown in the video below. But there's no sustainable amperage as such and it seemed to be being eaten slowly ! So, it's been swapped for burnt copper. 1V instead of 1.8 - 2, but much stronger milliamps.
The results from the video below are that alum/water/copper/galv steel will produce 1V @ 50mA when charged with an SSG. How long the charge needs to be and how long the cell will last with such a load is unknown yet.

It has meant that i've been able to power up a selfmade levitator motor - first time any homemade cell has been strong enough to do so

Alum Cell running levitator motor + SSG charging - YouTube


(Bigger version: http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...7/100_0025.jpg )
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:04 PM
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Neight Neight is offline
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OK, here is the link to the video I uploaded
Alum Water Cell - YouTube

There is a part two uploading right now, but it wont be done before I have to leave for work. It should be ready to watch in a couple of hours.

I am getting a lot of electroplating happening in my cell, which I didn't expect. I figured I would get some during charging, but it's still happening even during discharging...

I have some ideas for cells I will build this weekend, though I may post those to the Bedini Earth Light thread, since they will be more along the lines of crystal cells.

good stuff, and lots of learning going on here!

N8

Here is the link to the second video, for anyone who is interested to see the cell output and what happened after it was charged
alum water cell (part 2) - YouTube
enjoy

Last edited by Neight : 03-08-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 03-11-2012, 03:10 AM
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Hey guys
I think I have identified the copper power that I show in the second video I posted above. I am quite sure it is copper(I) oxide, which will oxidize down to copper(II) oxide.
Not sure if it is useful, but I know getting an oxide layer on the copper plate helps these cells, and I am thinking of trying to apply a layer to a copper electrode, and see if it does anything.

here is a quote from wikipedia on one of the uses of copper(II) oxide.
"Copper(II) oxide has application as a p-type semiconductor, because it has a narrow band gap of 1.2 eV. It is an abrasive used to polish optical equipment. Cupric oxide can be used to produce dry cell batteries. It has also been used in wet cell batteries as the cathode, with lithium as an anode, and dioxalane mixed with lithium perchlorate as the electrolyte"

perhaps this would be better to post in the bedini earth light thread, but either way, here is it. I am going to play around with the small amount I have, and see if it has an effect on a cell I plan to make tonight.


N8
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Old 03-11-2012, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
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Hey guys
I think I have identified the copper power that I show in the second video I posted above. I am quite sure it is copper(I) oxide, which will oxidize down to copper(II) oxide.
Not sure if it is useful, but I know getting an oxide layer on the copper plate helps these cells, and I am thinking of trying to apply a layer to a copper electrode, and see if it does anything.

here is a quote from wikipedia on one of the uses of copper(II) oxide.
"Copper(II) oxide has application as a p-type semiconductor, because it has a narrow band gap of 1.2 eV. It is an abrasive used to polish optical equipment. Cupric oxide can be used to produce dry cell batteries. It has also been used in wet cell batteries as the cathode, with lithium as an anode, and dioxalane mixed with lithium perchlorate as the electrolyte"

perhaps this would be better to post in the Bedini Earth Light thread, but either way, here is it. I am going to play around with the small amount I have, and see if it has an effect on a cell I plan to make tonight.


N8
Hi N8, Thanks for the update. I didn't abandon this thread but still waiting for alum to arrive and hoping to get better way to chart.
Please feel free to post here as well.
I used copper oxide on copper coiled electrodes in some of my early concrete cells. I still have one left. I was tempted to dissect and check but she's still running after a year with a bit of moisture added.
Thanks
Vtech

Last edited by blackchisel97 : 03-11-2012 at 03:49 AM. Reason: edit text
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:41 AM
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Neight, you'll find a good rise in voltage and amperage, if you burn the copper first. My method, is to heat a piece of copper on the highest heat of a cooker/stiove/bunsen burner for a couple of minutes and then quench in water. Do that 4 or 5 times and your copper should turn a salmon colour, there should also be plenty of black...that's your oxide. The copper I use has been from a PC heatsink and is fingernail thickness, by finger length size, rectangular. It becomes noticeably softer after the heating process.
Approximate figures - where normally a water, galvanized steel and plain copper cell will produce about 0.65V and 0.3mA or similar, you may see 0.8V and 1.7mA.

I must just mention a surprise from this evening. It rained quite heavily, so a couple of pills bottles were filled with rain straight out of the sky, dropping straight into the pills bottles - zero contamination (can't beat materials costs like that eh lol).
Galv steel and burnt copper as electrodes.
Plain, the readings were 0.75V 1mA
I added 1/8oz of Orthoboric Acid (Roach Killer 5oz for $1 from Dollar Tree) and 1/8oz of Baking Soda (Arm&Hammer) to one bottle. About a thimble of each to visualise.
On shaking the mixture up, the whole thing fizzed like a stomach gas tablet.
The readings were 0.95V 20mA !!!
It ran the little motor with propeller from a recent video (4mm cellphone vibrate motor and tail rotor from a micro helicopter, nothing like John and Chuck's setup of course !).
4hrs later, the mix has settled some (it doesn't have gas lol) and we're down to 0.85V and 20mA that drops to under 8mA with the DMM connected as a shorting load. Might be just interesting to look at the metals over time. My naivety of chemicals thinking being that I put an alkali with an acid to help balance the reactions. The plain water one will show any difference to just rain acid.

Alum may be the winner, but these sorts of experiments are certainly fun
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider2732 View Post
Neight, you'll find a good rise in voltage and amperage, if you burn the copper first. My method, is to heat a piece of copper on the highest heat of a cooker/stiove/bunsen burner for a couple of minutes and then quench in water. Do that 4 or 5 times and your copper should turn a salmon colour, there should also be plenty of black...that's your oxide. The copper I use has been from a PC heatsink and is fingernail thickness, by finger length size, rectangular. It becomes noticeably softer after the heating process.
Approximate figures - where normally a water, galvanized steel and plain copper cell will produce about 0.65V and 0.3mA or similar, you may see 0.8V and 1.7mA.

I must just mention a surprise from this evening. It rained quite heavily, so a couple of pills bottles were filled with rain straight out of the sky, dropping straight into the pills bottles - zero contamination (can't beat materials costs like that eh lol).
Galv steel and burnt copper as electrodes.
Plain, the readings were 0.75V 1mA
I added 1/8oz of Orthoboric Acid (Roach Killer 5oz for $1 from Dollar Tree) and 1/8oz of Baking Soda (Arm&Hammer) to one bottle. About a thimble of each to visualise.
On shaking the mixture up, the whole thing fizzed like a stomach gas tablet.
The readings were 0.95V 20mA !!!
It ran the little motor with propeller from a recent video (4mm cellphone vibrate motor and tail rotor from a micro helicopter, nothing like John and Chuck's setup of course !).
4hrs later, the mix has settled some (it doesn't have gas lol) and we're down to 0.85V and 20mA that drops to under 8mA with the DMM connected as a shorting load. Might be just interesting to look at the metals over time. My naivety of chemicals thinking being that I put an alkali with an acid to help balance the reactions. The plain water one will show any difference to just rain acid.

Alum may be the winner, but these sorts of experiments are certainly fun
nice call on the acid, I had thought about doing something similar, but the little vial of acid I have isn't labeled, so I don't play with it. If I can identify what kind of acid it is, I may try and test it, but I don't like poisonous gasses in my lungs...
I do have a big jug of battery acid somewhere, though it is old, and I don't know what kind of shelf life battery acid has.

The copper plate that the oxide came off of did actually turn that same salmon pink without adding heat to it. Just being in the solution gave it a good oxide layer, which probably has something to do with the cell forming it's plates.
I have tested this cell with two of these aluminum plates, same metal for electrodes, and it still makes nice power. two copper plates doesn't perform as well, though it does work. so you don't even need dis-similar metals, this thing will just run with any ole' conductors in there (guess it's not that surprising, as lead acid batteries that are converted use all lead plates).

I have found that I can return the copper plate back to it's regular copper color, using a thinner aluminum plate on the negative, and right back pink with the same thicker plate as well.

another curious little observation on this cell, it bubble constantly. It is separating the H2O with no power input, and no load on the cell. just copper and aluminum electrodes, and some alum water solution, and you get electrolysis...

not really sure what all is going on, but there is apparently an ongoing chemical reaction in this cell, that produces power, even when you are not looking.

On an even further side note, I have an alum water cell that I made set up as the bad battery position from the work I am doing in the 3 battery generating system thread. It works, and quite well for a home made alum cell.
I shot a video of this working, and will post it up later on the 3 battery thread, for anyone who is interested.

Honestly, at this point, I have little to no idea what is going on here, but I am having a blast testing and trying to figure it out!


N8

here is the link to the video I posted on youtube, figure I would link it here also, since I mentioned it
3 bat gen sys + home made bat 3 - YouTube
enjoy

Last edited by Neight : 03-11-2012 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:41 PM
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Neight

I have not watched the video yet but am very interested in your results with
the bad alum battery. I have an alum battery that did not recover and would not work as a bad battery. I was thinking to try putting a bit of battery acid
back into it to see if that would make it work as a bad battery. Do not know
if it will work. Any information from your trial will be very helpful.

George
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:02 PM
Joit Joit is online now
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I guess now the final Solution is Aluminum sulfate hydrate, what seems like is an Extract from Alum.
Potassium Alum was earlier used for tanning, but they now replaced it with Aluminium sulfate, probatly because it works better?
We use here Aluminium sulfat too, it is used beside of tanning as insulating salt for Nicotin stains, or other critical stains, or to neutralize the ground before you paint mineral Underground.
I guess i could buy it at a specialty Shop or at Fleebay. But anyway, i ordered now 1 kg of Pottasium Alum, because it was actually cheaper, should do the same, i can use it at last anyway as styptic, and because the salesgirl was so pretty.
I may need to use a higher concentration for the Mix, but at last, it should do the same, hopefully Potassium will not a mess with the Lead in the Batterie.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joit View Post
I guess now the final Solution is Aluminum sulfate hydrate, what seems like is an Extract from Alum.
Potassium Alum was earlier used for tanning, but they now replaced it with Aluminium sulfate, probatly because it works better?
We use here Aluminium sulfat too, it is used beside of tanning as insulating salt for Nicotin stains, or other critical stains, or to neutralize the ground before you paint mineral Underground.
I guess i could buy it at a specialty Shop or at Fleebay. But anyway, i ordered now 1 kg of Pottasium Alum, because it was actually cheaper, should do the same, i can use it at last anyway as styptic, and because the salesgirl was so pretty. -
I may need to use a higher concentration for the Mix, but at last, it should do the same, hopefully Potassium will not a mess with the Lead in the Batterie.
Joit, check my link few posts up. They have good price and shop free in US.
I didn't check mailbox yet but hopefully my order will arrive soon. I think that SO4 part plays important role in our project.

Thanks
Vtech
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:14 AM
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Joit, check my link few posts up. They have good price and shop free in US.
I didn't check mailbox yet but hopefully my order will arrive soon. I think that SO4 part plays important role in our project.

Thanks
Vtech
Thanks Vtech.
Seriously, sometimes you dont wanna know what you eat or the Industry use for the Taste.

From an other Page 'Poisons'
Quote:
Harmful to the environment, especially for fish. Slightly hazardous to water

Characteristics: The white, shiny crystals or powder that is not combustible. On combustion or on heating the substance decomposes, forming toxic fumes (sulfur oxides). In an aqueous solution of the substance is a medium strong acid. It reacts with alkali. Many metals are attacked in the presence of water.

Symptoms: The substance can be taken orally or by inhalation and irritating to the skin, eyes and respiratory tract. In an oral intake of the substance is corrosive. Even at a temperature of 20 C, it comes very quickly to a toxic contamination of the air. An exposure of the eyes and / or the skin can be recognized by redness and pain. In the eyes burns can occur. After oral ingestion, the patient shows nausea, vomiting, a burning sensation and abdominal pain. Intake by inhalation leads to sore throat, a cough and dyspnea.

Measures: The patient can be saved with self-contained breathing from the contaminated environment. Each patient receives at least four liters of oxygen per minute. Contaminated clothing is removed and the affected skin is thoroughly rinsed with water. In an action on the eye is to anesthetize it and rinse thoroughly. The induction of vomiting is contraindicated. To reduce the corrosive effect of the patient should get a drink about 300 ml of water. With this amount of the esophagus is rinsed off. Dilution to change the pH value is not possible. All other measures are symptomatic. Clinical monitoring must be done in any case.

Precautions: The skin and eyes must be protected with appropriate protective materials. When personal protective respiratory equipment must have at least one P2 filter.
It seems like, Florists use it too to sour the Ground, so its maybe also available at a market garden.
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:25 AM
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My ordered alum just arrived, together with deliciously smelling vanilla beans and herb mix (they were free gifts from supplier). I already flushed one battery and I'll get the alum mix done tonight. I'm also planning to make a cake with some vanilla flavor and apple/pear. I'll update on both

Thanks
Vtech
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:33 AM
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Cake is coming well but I need to flush battery with water again and let it sit overnight. After filling with 10% alum solution battery was sitting at 8.53V. After an hour I started to smell SO2 and dragged battery outside. Normally, there should be some hydrogen released but not SO2 and not that intense. Unless I took wrong water container I didn't have that problem before.

Vtech
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:45 AM
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I have now converted 2 SLA Batteries, i opened them and saw, that most dont have Gel in it, looks more like normal Battery Cells, the Valves are 2 Gum Corks. I used 2 Spoons Aluminium Sulfat at one big Cup of Destilled Water, Liter. Both actually did charge before to 12V, just one of them didnt keep a lot charge anymore.
Now i refilled them, charged them with my SSG, and both have about 12,30 Volts and light a 5 Watt Bulb easy. I think it worked for both. i got some other bad Batteries, but i think the Cells are Damaged, so its may better, to take Batteries, what at last hold still some charge and have a Voltage around 12 Volt. Any other are maybe only a 'good Try'.


Blackchisel, i think a part from it is the Solution itself smells.
Otherwise, the Lead Plates have a So2 coating, not sure, if yours been damaged, and fall apart, but as i said, i have some smell at the Solution itself too.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joit View Post
I have now converted 2 SLA Batteries, i opened them and saw, that most dont have Gel in it, looks more like normal Battery Cells, the Valves are 2 Gum Corks. I used 2 Spoons Aluminium Sulfat at one big Cup of Destilled Water, Liter. Both actually did charge before to 12V, just one of them didnt keep a lot charge anymore.
Now i refilled them, charged them with my SSG, and both have about 12,30 Volts and light a 5 Watt Bulb easy. I think it worked for both. i got some other bad Batteries, but i think the Cells are Damaged, so its may better, to take Batteries, what at last hold still some charge and have a Voltage around 12 Volt. Any other are maybe only a 'good Try'.


Blackchisel, i think a part from it is the Solution itself smells.
Otherwise, the Lead Plates have a So2 coating, not sure, if yours been damaged, and fall apart, but as i said, i have some smell at the Solution itself too.
Thanks for the update I flushed battery again and filled with new solution but strong suffocating smell forced me to stop. During the first time SO2 was so intense that I grabbed a respirator while moving battery outside.
The only way that SO2 maybe produced in such scale is during electrolysis of strong sulfuric acid and alum. Weak acid presence will not yield SO2 but H2. Since my battery was thoroughly washed the only explanation to me was deposit of sulfur compound which did "adopt" oxygen and formed SO2 gas released into the air. I decided to dissect the battery and what I found inside was that plates were much worst condition then I thought.
This was a bad battery to begin with ( accepting charge but leaking) but I just want to try it anyhow before discarding. It has no shorted cells and has been treated with radiant. Without doing autopsy I wouldn't know how badly those cells were deteriorated. I'm preparing another one which should be ready tomorrow. I also got some lead and I want to make small cells and see what happens on the surface with conventional and radiant charging in alum electrolyte.

Thanks
Vtech
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:08 AM
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Update

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRC View Post
I have not watched the video yet but am very interested in your results with the bad alum battery. I have an alum battery that did not recover and would not work as a bad battery. I was thinking to try putting a bit of battery acid back into it to see if that would make it work as a bad battery. Do not know if it will work. Any information from your trial will be very helpful.

George
For those not following the 3 Battery generating system thread. I now have the alum battery working with the system. So it was not a lost cause after all. In fact it is a
better "bad battery" that is required for the system than the regular lead acid ones.
To understand what I am talking about check out the thread.

George
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:51 AM
Joit Joit is online now
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I measured the Voltage today again from both Batteries, one have lost 0,01Volt, the other 0,02 Volt at one Day- which i think is actually not to bad.
An other 26 AH SLA Batterie did drop down to 4 Volt and now stay there, i think, its a old one, overcharged and boiled much Times.
But when i try to charge it with a SSG, the Resistance at the charge Side is more like, as if the Batterie has shorted Plates. i guess its a Candidate for the Trashcan at all.
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Old 03-21-2012, 03:04 PM
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Aluminum Sulfate dodecahydrate

synonyms alum, Aluminum potassium sulfate, kalinite,potassium alum, Aluminum potassiun salt

This crystal used in pools as positive charged ions to attract negative ions to form molecules for use in sand filtration....

Is the same alum that can be used in lead acid batteries.....

1/10 ratio is it the correct dilution ???

please advise .... any help is welcome

Want to explore this new electrolyte as i am in the process of collecting 1 1/2 yr old truck batteries for rejuvination with ss charger / solar

Another idea from another thread is to aerate the cells using aquarium aerators to constntly flush the plates and prevent sulfation





thanks

totoalas

Last edited by totoalas : 03-21-2012 at 03:11 PM.
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