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  #2611  
Old 08-25-2013, 06:47 PM
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Mario Mario is offline
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Hi all,

just wanted to post this link:

JOHN Bedini IDEAS AND MOTORS

this would explain why there seems to be some success with brushed motors as opposed to electronically switched transformers... Sparks!

Mario
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Last edited by Mario; 08-25-2013 at 06:50 PM.

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  #2612  
Old 08-25-2013, 10:17 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Mario

The deal with a transformer or choke that electronically switched is not that it will not work its the fact you have to drive it with a different purpose.
Normally you would switch them on and off giving you fluctuation in voltage. This would include OFFTIME.
You do not want off time and you really don't want a much fluctuation in the voltage. But you do want it in the current.
It is possible to just raise the current then back it off, but you need chokes or some kind of magnetic inhibitor of the current. You want current Ripple with voltage stabilty.
Driven correctly they look and act electrically just like motor except they have a lot more control as far as speed and total current past.
We can also raise or lower the voltage in the process. Without including the OFFTIME that come from a pulsed transformer or such...

You just think a little further than the box and soon its start to make sense why current fluctuation is more responsible for the actions in this system then anything else.

Soon I'll have working model for you. I have already seen it work but I have been the process of refining it as to not waste anything. I had some issues initially that I had to resolve, and to resolve them I had to order some parts.

I have been testing a choked system without the dead batteries and I am seeing result.

Right now thats my goal is to get rid of all the variable that we are trouble with. If others test an all good battery scenerio and it does not work well then we go back. I have tested with the dead batteries as well and I am also seeing results. People like Shylo are testing with the caps and that is working for him.
So all in all I think personally there is a solution at hand that can be reproduced even easier than the 3bgs with dead batteries.

That would be the goal anyway.

Cheers
Matt
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  #2613  
Old 08-26-2013, 02:30 PM
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I'm back from my week of being grandpa, and have some things for your consideration.

Different people are approaching this from different ways based on their theory and their goals.

Some want only to have a motor that runs for free, and could care less what they get out of the inverter. Some want the AC output of the inverter and would just as soon get rid of the motor. Frankly, I could care less, as long as we get a stable working system that produces usable power.

So lets talk about that power for a moment. Unless I see it in front of me and can measure it with a meter and a scope, I have a hard time believing it exists, which means if I can't replicate it, to me it is suspect.

So I want to talk about facts, not theories. I have toasted three inverters with this setup and one voltage regulator. I believe some others have experienced the same thing. I know the exact circumstances for each melt down.

In the case of two of the inverters I had a very heavy load on the motor...so much that it was barely able to turn, and I was adding loads to the inverter to speed up the motor. I was between 600 and 800 watts of load on the inverter trying to balance the system. As anybody who has tried this knows, the voltage on your primaries is sinking like the Titanic when you try to do this because of the load on the motor and the load on the inverter, so you have to be FAST until you get it balanced.

In both cases I added a load to the inverter and "POW", it smoked like a bad cigar. In the third situation I also had a huge load on the motor and had put a huge load on the inverter that I thought was MORE than what I needed to balance it out. I was REDUCING the load on the inverter. The motor had sped up and I was removing small loads from the inverter to balance the two. I had already removed a few 3 amp bulbs, removed one more and "POW", the inverter smoked. In the final case, which is the voltage regulator, I had it in place to keep the inverter from smoking. I had a huge load on the motor and was adding loads to the inverter and it smoked the regulator. In none of these cases do I know if the device smoked because of voltage input to them or because of amps input to them, but it would have to be one or the other wouldn't it?

The voltage regulator was rated for 60 volts input. I have no idea the amps rating on it or the voltage input limits or amps input limits on the inverters that smoked.

Those are the facts. Any number of theories could be created that those facts could support. You make up your own. I have mine, but it has not been proven or tested. It is just a theory. My THEORY was that when I was adjusting the load and trying to hit that balance point, whether I was adding loads to reach it, or removing loads to reach it, when I hit it, something happened that caused some kind of surge that blew out the inverters and/or the voltage regulators. Whether it was a surge in voltage (it would have had to be a surge of over 60 volts to blow the regulator) or a surge of amps, I do not know, but that is my theory.

Anybody up for toasting some more regulators or inverters? It's an expensive hobby!! Maybe the simplest thing to do would be to use a whole bunch of 12 volt lights you can get from an RV place that sells lights for 12 volt systems instead of an inverter. They screw into a regular socket. Then if there's a surge, you explode some glass or burn out some bulbs. I have a row of those bulbs, but maybe I need to get some more.

But it is that surge that interests me. What is it, and where does it come from? If it is a high voltage surge, it must be over 60 volts. Is it momentary, or can it be sustained? Is it a surge, or is it a pulse that will repeat, or is it a steady flow? Is it an increase in voltage or amps. In either case, where does it come from? It does NOT take much of a voltage increase to blow an inverter. They are not built to have an input much over 12 volts, (in MOST cases) especially the cheap ones I am using. But the voltage regulator I smoked WAS designed to take a high voltage input (60 volts) and take it down to 12 volts, and it too was smoked. If it was an increase in amps OR voltage, why did it happen when I REMOVED loads from the inverter?? That fact led me to suspect the "balance" issue and that when you balance the loads this surge happens.

None of this gets us anywhere until someone else replicates it and until we see if it is more than a single surge. But if you have toasted an inverter, you have already seen what I am talking about.
Dave
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  #2614  
Old 08-26-2013, 04:31 PM
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Hi Matt,

I'm not sure I understand your theory about current and no off time, but I'm open and willing to learn and hope you'll get it to work as you want it to.
The difference I see between a motor and a transformer is basically only in the coil turn off.
In the transformer you can choose wether to collect the coil collapse or not (unless you drive it push-pull) with a bridge rectifier but there will be a spike who's amplitude depends on how fast the coil is turned off, inductance and resistance.
If electronically switched, at turn off the 3BGS circuit is open since the transistor or mosfet is open. In the motor, when the coil is switched off with the commutator the circuit is open for an instant, voltage of collapsing field builds up until high enough to jump the air gap, at this moment the conducting air CLOSES the 3BGS circuit on both sides of the coil, and the collapsing field creates a forward current through the whole system, which is not the case with electronic switch. This may do something different to the whole setup.
Correct me if I'm wrong, it's just the difference between the two as I see it.

Mario
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  #2615  
Old 08-26-2013, 06:48 PM
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Turion, it seems like fuses would be a wise choice to have inline several places or breakers if it's 120AC volts. Or do you think these are blowing below their ratings? Many cheaper inverters are over rated in their power output just like audio amplifiers. 1000 watt inverters of the cheap kind are probably lucky if they can handle 500 or 600 watts.
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  #2616  
Old 08-26-2013, 07:22 PM
john00287 john00287 is offline
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Hi everybody! The last couple of days I have been working on a circuit to switch the batteries with a load attached to the inverted battery which is our buffer battery. Attached you will find the circuit, and its equivalent circuits with when the appropriate relays are energized. Dave I was watching your youtube video on homemade transducers. When you are pulse charging them do you charge them with opposite polarity? Thanks Dave and everybody for sharing your work here. John
[ATTACH]1362[ATTACH][ATTACH]Relay 3 &4 Energized_schem.pdf[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]8[/ATTACH]
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Switching ckt with load_schem.pdf (602.3 KB, 51 views)
File Type: pdf Relay 1 Energized_schem.pdf (157.1 KB, 36 views)
File Type: pdf Relay 2 Energized_schem.pdf (157.4 KB, 32 views)
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  #2617  
Old 08-26-2013, 07:45 PM
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john00287,

That is not quite the circuit we have been using. The two latest are the one at post #2335 or just the original with a GOOD battery in the third position instead of a bad battery. Some folks are omitting the coil and the earth ground to see the difference in the one at # 2335, which is Randy's design.

If the circuit you are using is WORKING for you, I would keep on with it and see what you can make of it.

As to the transducers, YES, I was pulsing them with opposite polarity...positive from my transformer to neg of the battery, to try and get the polarity to reverse. And it did. Took a while, but it did. And those were GOOD batteries when I started.

Dave
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  #2618  
Old 08-26-2013, 08:02 PM
john00287 john00287 is offline
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Turion, Thanks for the reply. I will modify the circuit to include the pancake coil and ground and see if I can switch the motor to the other side. I have not built the circuit yet to test it. Will start with making the transducers first. Thanks, John
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  #2619  
Old 08-26-2013, 11:19 PM
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tachyoncatcher tachyoncatcher is offline
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Self made bad batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
john00287,

That is not quite the circuit we have been using. The two latest are the one at post #2335 or just the original with a GOOD battery in the third position instead of a bad battery. Some folks are omitting the coil and the earth ground to see the difference in the one at # 2335, which is Randy's design.

If the circuit you are using is WORKING for you, I would keep on with it and see what you can make of it.

As to the transducers, YES, I was pulsing them with opposite polarity...positive from my transformer to neg of the battery, to try and get the polarity to reverse. And it did. Took a while, but it did. And those were GOOD batteries when I started.

Dave
Dave,
I would love to know how those self made transducers are working for you. My results have always been poor. I would love to have someone get a good result with something that was made from a good battery other than the old, sulfated, bloated, bad batteries that I have always ended up using to get lasting results.
Thanks,
Randy
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  #2620  
Old 08-27-2013, 12:06 AM
shylo shylo is offline
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Resting batteries

Matts right you have to give the batteries a chance to rest.
I thought it was fluff charge at first , but am not sure, batteries should not hold the same level of charge after multiple runs??
I built a switch ,so there was only a few mil-seconds between switching , whereas manually there was a couple minutes.

The longer it takes to switch, that is the more rest ,the stronger the batteries will be.

But they do charge, and hold it.
artv
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  #2621  
Old 08-27-2013, 01:03 AM
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Randy,
After resting for a week while I was gone, my two good batteries I attempted to make transducers out of by pulse charging them with positive on the negative pole have gone back to positive, They are both sitting at .70 volts right now. So tomorrow I will hit them with the pulse charger again. Once I have them holding in the negative, I will do some test runs and let you know.


I am also going to do some test runs tomorrow with all positive batteries to see what I can do with that setup using three brand new batteries I purchased on my trip to AZ.

Dave
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  #2622  
Old 08-28-2013, 12:39 AM
john00287 john00287 is offline
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Hi everybody. Revised my circuit to follow the circuit in post 2335. You can also use double pole double throw switches instead of relays. When I get all the parts together I will use switches, that way it will be easier to experiment without disconnecting and reconnecting batteries.
Switching ckt1b with load_schem.pdf
Relay1_schem.pdf
Relay2_schem.pdf
Relay3&4_schem.pdf
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  #2623  
Old 09-01-2013, 05:38 PM
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Back to the fun

Hello to All,

Good to be back in US, wow so much to get done.

Caught up my reading on this forum, the new schematic from Randy looks interesting and challenging.

I don't have but one AGM battery, still testing with FLA batts. These FLA's are alum filled. Didn't get good results from this setup, will try the AGM ones.

Will also try to take an empty new battery, fill with crystal solution, let it crystallize and try it. Maybe waste of resources but some experiments are worth it.

Happy experimenting again,
wantomake
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  #2624  
Old 09-03-2013, 03:04 PM
gnino gnino is offline
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-wB_UK-7oU
Strange behavior of b3
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  #2625  
Old 09-03-2013, 10:44 PM
shylo shylo is offline
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Strange indeed

I was doing some different test's .
One was just using ,1 of my dead batteries ,to run my motor.
Since it kept charging up ( in the original set-up ) ,I decided to see how long it ( a dead battery ) would run a load ( my motor ) .
It ran for 12 hours ,all the way down to 5.4 volts.
The strange thing was as it ran, it would speed-up , and slow down, did this during the entire run.
Always when it sped up , the voltage reading climbed, slowed down drop.

I'm not sure how Batteries work , but am beginning to think they discharge or give off the stored energy in surges??
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  #2626  
Old 09-04-2013, 03:17 AM
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yes and no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shylo View Post
I was doing some different test's .
One was just using ,1 of my dead batteries ,to run my motor.
Since it kept charging up ( in the original set-up ) ,I decided to see how long it ( a dead battery ) would run a load ( my motor ) .
It ran for 12 hours ,all the way down to 5.4 volts.
The strange thing was as it ran, it would speed-up , and slow down, did this during the entire run.
Always when it sped up , the voltage reading climbed, slowed down drop.

I'm not sure how Batteries work , but am beginning to think they discharge or give off the stored energy in surges??
Hey shylo,
Check out post #1924 you'll see the link to the YouTube I posted. Same effects except with 12 vdc bulbs.
Strange indeed,
wantomake
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  #2627  
Old 09-04-2013, 05:49 AM
gnino gnino is offline
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Strange battery behavior pt2 - YouTube
Strange battery behavior pt
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  #2628  
Old 09-04-2013, 06:03 AM
CrystalDipoleMatrix CrystalDipoleMatrix is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnino View Post
Strange battery behavior pt2 - YouTube
Strange battery behavior pt

Fake. You are playing your video in reverse. Why doing that?

I'm not a fool I can see these tricks. Good try.
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  #2629  
Old 09-04-2013, 06:17 AM
gnino gnino is offline
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I put another bulb in parallel forcing the battery to pull out more power both bulb go down and after a While go bright butta the effect is vanished
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  #2630  
Old 09-04-2013, 10:48 AM
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citfta citfta is online now
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Not a fake!

Why do you think this is fake? Many of us that have been working with the 3BGS have seen the same effect from the "dead battery". The battery will show some voltage and then as soon as you apply a load the voltage is gone and then slowly comes back up and powers the load. If you continue to let it run the voltage will slowly go back down until the battery is exhausted. There is some kind of chemical or electrical processes going on in the "dead" battery that we don't yet understand. Or at least no one has come forward and claimed to understand it. Not all dead batteries will do what is shown in the video. What you are seeing is an indication he may have a good candidate for the right "dead" battery.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CrystalDipoleMatrix View Post
Fake. You are playing your video in reverse. Why doing that?

I'm not a fool I can see these tricks. Good try.
Respectfully, Carroll
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  #2631  
Old 09-04-2013, 12:17 PM
gnino gnino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnino View Post
Strange battery behavior pt2 - YouTube
Strange battery behavior pt
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnino View Post
I put another bulb in parallel forcing the battery to pull out more power both bulb go down and after a While go bright butta the effect is vanished
After 5 hour resting the effect us coming back
Crystaldipole what reason i have to make a fake?
I didn't make any claim of overunity
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  #2632  
Old 09-04-2013, 01:06 PM
gnino gnino is offline
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I'm uploading pt 3 and pt 4,pt 4 show the effect vanished if the battery rest for a few hours the effect come back again.
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Last edited by gnino; 09-04-2013 at 01:15 PM. Reason: error in ty
  #2633  
Old 09-04-2013, 01:32 PM
gnino gnino is offline
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Pt 3
YouTube
Pt 4
YouTube
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Last edited by gnino; 09-04-2013 at 01:46 PM.
  #2634  
Old 09-04-2013, 04:39 PM
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NOT a fake

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnino View Post
Pt 3
YouTube
Pt 4
YouTube
No worries Gnino, we KNOW its NOT a fake. We've all experienced this. With me, my motor jumped up suddenly in RPM. Its on my video too...

Best regards,

Luther
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  #2635  
Old 09-04-2013, 06:04 PM
gnino gnino is offline
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pt 5
strange battery behavior pt 5 - YouTube
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  #2636  
Old 09-04-2013, 11:05 PM
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Surge

Hi folks ,with certain batteries you do get a flow of extra power or surge ,then a drop ,then a surge.
The one thing I am finding is , when it climbs ,it reaches a value, when it drops , it reaches a value. The next time it climbs ,it doesn't climb as high as the first surge or value , and when it drops ,it drops to a lower value.

I'm trying to switch out at the end of the surge.
Gotta keep trying, this with lots of other things.
artv
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  #2637  
Old 09-05-2013, 04:14 PM
Bob Smith Bob Smith is offline
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A while back, Matt was inviting consideration of whether or how the chemistry of sulfated batteries might be facilitating the effects seen in this setup. While frequency and their related factors seem to be the direction the "why" and "how" investigation has taken, I thought I'd post for your consideration this link to Lamare's post about the "catalytic layer" in Bob Boyce's setup:
Stan Meyers BIG secret: "electropolished" stainless steel

Could it be that something like a catalytic layer on battery/capacitor plates might also have something to do with this phenomenon?
Respectfully,
Bob
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Last edited by Bob Smith; 09-05-2013 at 04:49 PM. Reason: Clarification
  #2638  
Old 09-09-2013, 01:30 PM
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Hi Everyone,

Over time I have realized that there is real observation here that something unusual is happening with the 3BGS. I have no doubt of this. The most remarkable or unusual effects (there are many) I see observed are: 1. More energy observed in the system that initially was there at the start. 2. More work done that can be explained by the energy that initially was there at the start. There would have to be some rock solid way of accurately measuring these manifestations. It seems very unlikely these effects could exist in our universe with there being some way to measure them in a way that leaves little doubt. People have already expressed that they have no need to prove anything to anyone. I strongly disagree. The real need is to prove it to yourselves beyond any critic's reasonable doubt. This proof of concept seems to be what is missing from this entire project. Traditional research demands this proof before too much time and money is spent investigating anything. It seems that the more time one invests, the less likely solid proof is required by the participants. Why? Well, look at all the time and effort everyone has invested. Why chance proving that the effects aren't what they seem to be?

Please do not make this personal. I am challenging any and all to measure and show increased stored energy over the beginning charge state. I am challenging any and all to measure work done with original charge state compared to work done during the cycle plus exhausting all batteries.

Either one will show that energy is being added to the system during the cycle.

Here would be one example of work measured (although maybe not so practical). An electric pump, fills a very large tank with water. When the batteries quit, the amount of water is measured. Now compare how much can be pumped with the 2 fully charged good batteries plus the "Dead" battery. Then measure again during 3BGS plus using the remaining charge after the cycle.

Please remember that I really want all of you to succeed.
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  #2639  
Old 09-09-2013, 04:08 PM
Bob Smith Bob Smith is offline
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Catalytic Layer as Negative Resistance

If a catalytic layer is actually a part of the success of this system, I am led to two conclusions:

- that the catalytic layer over the capacitor/battery plates may be providing conditions for negative resistance;
- the negative resistance of such plates is only going to come into play when acted upon by the proper electrical stimuli
(frequency, duty cycle, voltage/current etc.) Matt has posted about these stimuli.

As a related aside (not to derail discussion):
If this is in fact a case of catalytic layer and negative resistance (under the proper electrical conditions) it may indicate that the 3BGS phenomenon has elements in common with other setups - not only the Stan Meyer WFC, but perhaps the Stubblefield earth batteries with their iron windings coated in ferrous oxide (catalytic layer). It may also point to helping researchers better understand the work of Gabriel Kron, one of the first to talk about negative resistance: Welcome to John Bedini
Perhaps a better understanding of what's going on in the 3BGS can provide a window into understanding other arrays which exhibit similar electrical characteristics.
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Last edited by Bob Smith; 09-09-2013 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Fixing typos
  #2640  
Old 09-09-2013, 07:23 PM
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Skeptic,
That's on me for not completing the test I promised you I would do. But I am working on it. In fact, I attempted to begin the test today, but had some problems with my meter and could not get it to reset. I have three brand new batteries that have never been used before. I will connect them one at a time to a small 12 volt motor through a meter that measures voltage flow, amps, Amp hours of power, watts used, and time. It also measures a couple other things that aren't that important, but you will be able to see it in the video. By measuring three full batteries connected to a load in parallel, I should get a pretty good idea of what those three batteries will produce. I will run them until the motor no longer turns. Then I will charge them back up, let them rest, and replace one of them with a "bad" discharged battery and run the exact same test, this time with the 3BGS circuit. I have a second meter ordered but it will not be here until Friday. I hope to figure out how to reset this one sometime today and can begin the test. If not, I will get it done this weekend.

The meter I am using is much like the Killowat meter, but it is for DC, not AC

Dave
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