Good to see that some are still wanting to work on the
original system. I would like to do the same if I can find
time. Unfortunately, I came back home to a nightmare
of numerous problems that have to be dealt with first.

George

Sorry I have left the work here on the shoulders of others for so long. I'll be back at it the first part of next week after company leaves. Both Luther and I are committed to this thing, so you will be seeing the results of our testing and experiments in the near future.

I am also committed to the design Matt has come up with. Having the proper components to keep it up and running has been the issue, but that seems to have been solved. Once I have mine going for a while we'll probably create a new post where we can take that info and keep working with it to increase the output. It won't run a house yet! YET being the operative word.

Dave

Hi Dave

I hope soon we will be hearing good news about your basic setup .
I also working on gathering the proper parts for Matt's setup but that
Will take 10 days from now ,I hope .
Good luck

Ehsan

Hi all
I'm not sure if this post may be of interest in this thread. I would not make off topic.
I've been experimenting with defective batteries.
I have a couple of curious results.
I have yet to check the measurements. But for now I do not find explanation.

First circuit:

B1: Source, 12.53v
B2: Charge, 12.49v

mA IN ........ mA Out
140 ........... 450
200 ........... 600
300 ........... 720
400 ........... 820
500 ........... 920
600 ........... 990
700 ........... 1010
800 ........... 1050
900 ........... 1070
1000 .......... 1100

Frequency: 713-715 Hz

I adjusted to 400/800mA. After 1 hour is 400/750 and B1 which was loaded supposedly has dropped to 11.55v (was possibly marred) , B2 is 12.85v

Hi all
Second circuit with two defective batteries added (B3.B4):


B3 and B4 are in series to 3.5v
Initially rise to 1A in /5-6A out
Stabilizes and is in 400mA/1.5A
I adjusted to 200/700mA. After 2 hours is 200/700.
Several hours then left in 150/250mA. B1 10.60v, B2 13.24v, B3+B4 2.2v
Circuit is switched off and after several hours B2 12.76v

Glad to see SOMEBODY is still messing around with bad batteries.

I am putting my setup back together today to continue experimenting. I still have several motors and my batteries, and Luther and I discuss this thing all the time in relation to other things we have been doing and things we have been learning.

I got the most significant results with my original system when I had huge loads connected to the inverter. I really had to torque down on the belt/pulley arrangement I had for putting a load on the motor to keep everything in tune, and that is when my primaries got so high in voltage that it scared me.

With the setup I have been working with, I haven't been able to get my inverter to run those kind of loads or even stay on very long, and I don't know if it is an issue with the inverter or the voltage I am able to supply it with.

So I am going to go back to the same kind of setup I had originally, where I can put additional (this time measurable) load on the motor. It will be turning a generator and I will add loads to the generator side to try and get the inverter side to run steadily. I guess we will see what happens, but I am looking forward to it.

I am still involved in several other builds at the moment, including Matt's solid state setup, UFO's motor modification, and a couple other things, so I am busy all the time. However, I intend to make sure I spend some time on this every single day because it is too important to just let it slide away into the darkness.

Dave

What is "Matt's solid state"?

Hi cncjoe

I think he mean the scalar charger

Ehsan

Yes, the scalar charger is exactly what I meant. I got the boards for it and all the parts. Just have to do a little soldering.

I got everything cleared off my bench that I built just for the 3BGS setup. I installed three of the six amp gauges I bought. Tomorrow I will get all the batteries charged and maybe do a short test run with my new inverter to see how it works with the setup.

Dave

Can't wait Dave! Hope you will be posting details in this thread, or at least post links to where they will be. Thanks!
joe

There are still a LOT of folks out there messing with the 3BGS who don't report in here at all. Some of them PM or e-mail me and some of them have made comments about the 3BGS on other forums, so I know there is still an interest. And these are folks who know a thing or two about this stuff.

Anyway... it's off to the basement I go to gt my batteries charged up and get started with some test runs. And I will definitely be posting here.

Dave

Awesome! Thanks dave! Good hunting.

OK boys and girls, I might as well start things off with a BANG! since I'm going to be posting here pretty regularly until we get this thing figured out.

I hooked up the 3BGS setup using UFO's idea for a modified motor. I used a 16 pole razor scooter motor that I rewound with 50 turns per coil of #23 wire. I did a little video on my YouTube channel of how I wound the wire for those who would like to duplicate. You need a second commutator on the motor because you begin on one commutator and end on the other.The second commutator allows you to use the motor as a generator, and I hooked the output of the generator to my inverter along with battery 3 so that I could run loads. I ran over 100 watts in load on 12 volts (so over 8 amps draw) on my two 18 amp hour batteries, and they went up in charge from 12.3 to over 13 volts by the end of the day.

Here are two different videos I took, The first video is my third run of the day after I got everything working and the second video is about my 5th run of the day after I moved things permanently to my test bench from my work bench.

UFO motor/ 3BGS - YouTube
UFO/ 3BGS test 2 - YouTube
3BGS Test 3 - YouTube


And then.....it QUIT WORKING. Just like my original!!!!! But at least this time I got some data which will help us make some informed guesses about what the heck is going on here. And there is a possibility I was just pulling too much LOAD for the setup and draining the batteries. Gotta get some meters on it and see what's what.

If you will notice in video two, the voltage on battery three is reading negative, even though the meter is hooked up correctly. In fact, battery three reverses polarity. How do I know this for SURE?? I don't, but my meter is a pretty good indication. It is reversed polarity now TOO. After being hooked up to battery three for quite some time, it reads negaitve numbers when connected correctly to a battery, and positive numbers when its positive connector is placed on the negative. It is PERMANENTLY ( or so it appears) messed up. And I believe it is during this time when the battery is reversed that we get this period of time when the voltage will climb on the primaries even with the system under load. At some point, the battery flips back, and the magic comes to a screeching halt. If my setup is actually NOT working anymore, that would be my best guess as to why.

The dead battery is showing a negative reading between the hot and ground. The battery is flipping the voltage and sending it back to the primaries via the ground side. The motor is sending current back to the primaries and that is why you see the jumping of voltage on the gauge,

Tose are the best guesses.

I am putting two diodes (in opposite directions) between battery one and the motor, and connecting a volt meter and an amp meter to each one to see the movement of electricity there. I will do the same thing between the motor and battery three. That should give me lots of good info. Going down to do that now.

Will shoot more video

Dave

I should have figured this out!!...
You left Us there...waiting while you are using MY TOY, to PLAY with YOUR TOYS...

The Negative Value is Radiant Turion...and yes, you will screw up meters...but charge batteries while De-sulfating them...Bob Smith posted that phenomena in the Asymmetric Machines a while back...Your best bet would be -like you are saying- using diodes...to protect meter...but good and fast rectifiers...not the 1N4000 diodes family...

I will submit the Invoice Later on... for using "My System" in "Your System"...


Where are the DYNO TESTSSSS!!???



Regards


Ufopolitics

Please be happy to share your results in My Thread...they will also love the outcome...

Thanks


Ufopolitics

I was puling too much load and not allowing the primaries to receive anything to charge up. This will take a bit of careful management to understand how the system works, and getting gauges on everything is critical. I am in the process of doing that now, so I can make sure there is enough getting to the primaries to keep them charged up, but not enough to overcharge them. I will take THOSE kinds of problems any day!!

Dave

Hi Turion, First video very cool! However second video I think I caught a booboo. You have the 3 red meters in a row all the same but the one which is reading a negative 15 volts on the dead battery I noticed the red and black leads where they plug into THAT meter are the opposite of the other 2 meters - that is the red and black are reversed compared to the other 2 meters. I think that would explain the negative value of 15 volts on the dead battery if I'm right.

Still all very impressive!

you are correct!! Good!! Means I didn't ruin the meter! That is a load off my mind. It means basically the system still works like it did before. When you flip the switch you should read about 24 volts on battery three, which is really a reading of the difference between battery three and the stack of two batteries. As battery three charges up some, that difference becomes less and less. At some point the "black hole" of a dead battery begins to fill up, and this allows the motor to use some of the current to begin to run ( usually at around 18 volts) on the meter on battery three. I haven't seen that with UFO's motor yet. Every time I have had to connect another motor to get that current draw, and then UFO's motor would start and I could disconnect the other motor.

My motor to use as a generator came in today, so I will be able to balance the load on battery three with the load on the motor. It all seems to be coming together. Now I need some folks to replicate this setup.

Dave

Here is a schematic. I am trying to run tests today, so will try to get everyone's questions answered tonight.

Dave

Two things.
I couldn't get the setup to work today and it was freaking me out and I was in a total state of panic. Then I decided to push everything to the side on the bench, watch my three videos and build from what I could see on the videos. The very first thing was, I remembered I had just charged all my batteries, so I started with fully charged batteries and it worked. So that may be a really important secret key. If you do not have completely charged primaries there is not enough of a potential difference to make the magic happen. When they ARE charged you can KEEP them charged or even raise the charge in them, but if they are NOT fully charged, you can't get enough of a potential difference to start the process.

I could tell there was something wrong today, and then I remembered what happened to me yesterday that got this all started. I hooked up UFO's motor and it wouldn't start up, as sometimes happens. I have told everyone. Hook up the motor and wait. It should start eventually. Sometimes you can spin it by hand to get it started if you are impatient. Well, I was REALLY impatient, and I thought there might be something wrong with my setup, like a bad wire, so I had a 12 volt fan and I touched the connections where UFO’s motor was connected between the battery positives. It started up and so did UFO’s motor. When I tried this today, the fan motor would start, but UFO’s motor would NOT. Which made me realize that maybe I didn’t have enough amps in my battery to kick that motor over. I ran it way down yesterday when I left the basement with too much load on the motor. SO that is ANOTHER reason I felt like it needed to be charged, and it worked.

To answer questions I have been asked…Yes, you still need a dead battery in position three. That’s what makes the whole thing work. But with UFO’s motor I don’t believe it is nearly as critical a component. A drained (good) battery most probably will work. I don’t know. Need to test it and find out.

Earth Ground. I haven’t tried this, but have always wanted to. The gas lines and water pipes run right over me head only a couple feet away. It would be real easy to connect to either of them.

Howdy,

The load you are connecting in parallel over the 3rd battery is needed so that the series potential of batteries 1/2 has somewhere to go to "do work" and it probably is acting like a "primer" to get the flows moving. At least thats what I'd think given what I've read of this thread.

The fact that you initially get 24vdc measured over the dead battery implies that No current is flowing from batteries 1/2 thru battery 3... and that as you see that voltage drop from 24vdc down to 18vdc and thus the "motor" in series on the negative side of battery 3 starts turning, you now have current flowing in the system. Analog meters should confirm the current flow aspect of these statements.

The next thing I'd comment on is the ufomotor thingie... and the fact that using a smaller load (the fan) allowed the flows to be instantiated. It seems that to much current draw still causes the dipole to *maybe* become balanced in its asymetric state in relation to the 3rd dead battery...? Whats the ufomotor draw when driven by normal battery arrangements? And whats the fan draw? (looking for amps drawn for both the motor and the fan at same volt potential being noted by the series 1/2 batteries, which seems to be 24vdc, that should give us an idea of what sort of "initiator/primer" current needs to be drawn to initiate the process.)

The fact that you have to "recharge" the 1/2 batteries seems to point to the fact that they are still discharging the chemical induced currents even if they are returning to the original volt potential. They are losing their ability to supply current to the load circuit then right? Otherwise why would you have to charge them back up?

Anyways just some questions and thoughts. Thanks for sharing your benching efforts!

Regards,
Gene

Gene,
I had to recharge the batteries because I took the system out of balance by putting too much load on battery number three without increasing the load on the motor...and walked away to talk on the phone. The second I did that, I suddenly have an inverter pulling 200 watts of power out of my two primary batteries for however long I was gone, and it just sucked them down.

When the circuit was IN balance I ran those same kinds of loads off and on all day long and the voltage on the primaries either remained the same or went UP. There were a couple times it started going down and I just decreased the load on battery three. But I was watching it carefully.

Lots of amps are getting drawn by UFO's motor...more than any of my gauges or meters will measure, so I have ordered two 65 amp dc meters which should be here in a couple days. Then I will have more accurate data to present. I am putting gauges ALL OVER this setup, as you may be able to tell by the schematic I just posted. I am GOING to find out exactly what is happening here. If it is cold electricity, I probably won't be able to measure it, but if it is not, the circuit Matt put together is designed to measure the movement of standard electricity no matter what it is doing.

Dave

Dave,

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification. Is there a process that is documented for maintaining the draw/system "in balance"?

Have you tried putting two Dead batteries in series in battery position 3? I'm curious what that might do. I guess I can do that once I try and replicate the configuration. I'll print out your schematic, and if you can point me at the "process" on this thread, I can print that out as well to give this a try at home on the bench.

Is there any common aspect of the system that shows up when the system starts to go "out of balance"? And is the only way to "rebalance" it to reduce the load or increase the loading at the place where the UFO motor is placed?

Would a light bank work in that Motors place? (incandescents will run on DC as well as AC and are usually brighter off DC, which is why I'm asking.) Its also easier to assemble a light bank with switches to adjust the specific watt draw than it is to find a series of motors and switch those in or out. But if that load has to be a commutated load then it would have to be motors I suppose.

If it is only commutated motors that work as load, are the axles doing any work? ie driving a DC perm mag motor to keep an added charge over the batteries 1/2 to add to that self charging phenomena? or maybe using the DC motor as generator to fill caps that are periodically discharged?

Lastly are the batteries lead acid or Gel Cells or some other particular type? I have some 7aH gel cells and some old auto starting batteries kicking around but nothing deep cycle or AGM type. Just curious if I need to use a specific "type" of cell for this configuration.

I've done tesla switch and the bedini version of the same along with building other systems that use that configuration as the battery source to drive transistors (which work fine by the way) but none of those charged the source batteries (the series bank), tho they would charge the parallel bank which could then be swapped around to the series bank (reversing the battery positions) to get an extended run time. So I'm at least familiar with the idea of relative potentials based on how they are put in local context with each other.

Thanks for the clarification, look forward to some direction and I'll try and contribute constructively to the thread.

Take care,
Gene

Gene,
If you read post #1, the whole process is there step by step. Nothing has really changed from that. I use a light bank off of battery thee and a light bank off another motor as generator as my load on the motor. The light bank off battery three is AC off an inverter and the light bank off of the generator is dc that has been rectified. But we find that if you run a MOTOR off the dc on battery three as load, THAT motor may have some feedback into the system TOO if it is brushed dc. You can also split the NEGATIVES with a motor the same way we are splitting the positives. There's just a boat load of stuff to this system and we have not scratched the paint on the surface of it.

Dave

Dave,

One other idea... for the torque off the load motors axle... are you familiar with the RV Alternator? Its sorta useless in the rotoverter context but it would work to act as a dynamic loading against the torque of the driving prime mover motor by reverse inducing at speed (presuming the drive motor runs at least around 1800rpm or so) which can be adjusted on the fly by using a run capacitor switchable binary bank...

One can get a 3 phase motor of some horsepower rating and wire up just wires 1/2 to the cap bank and dial in some VARS to be in existence as the Alternator turns which will act to cause variable friction on the axles torque output...

Beyond that tho its not much use for "extracting useful energy" tho in this case it might be as when you extract from it in the Rotoverter config, the prime mover RV motors input amp draws goes up, which given the function you're looking to add as loading to the motor on this 3BGS system might be the specific desirable aspect of using this sort of thing as the axle load. (not to mention any old 3 phase motor can then potentially be made to be a generator for this system... ) Maybe a DC perm mag motor as the load for the 3bgs nose coupled to a 3ph AC motor with adjustable excitation capacity would allow for output to be adjusted as the loading needs to be increased to maintain the systems balance eh?

Anyways just a thought.

Take care,
Gene

P.S. how do I get my uploaded image to show up next to my name like you guys have? (oh and thanks for the Malcolm Reynolds quote... I dig me some firefly/serenity!)

Thanks for the clarification, I'll draw it up and give it a go. I asked a couple more questions in parenthesis noted above as well if you can answer those.

That means the 4 x 25 watt lamps are all in parallel on a power strip into the inverter then, correct?

Yup, I have done the split positives on either rail, positive or negative, it doesn't appear to matter which side you draw from. I'll go print the details from post #1 as well for the starting point. I have a 12volt perm mag scooter motor which hopefully should work for this replication.

Have you formulated a theory on whats going on in the system?

Looks like, from your vids, that the batteries are all Sealed Lead Acid Gel Cells so I should be ok with the 7Ah gel cells I have on hand.

I look forward to more vids once you get the analog meters all wired up... they should do a better job of averaging the voltages than the DVM's tend to do.

Take care,
Gene

All my lights are wired in parallel.
The motor as generator will put out ac, and I rectify that to run the dc lights. I still have to rectify it to run the inverter to run the ac lights, because the inverter runs on dc. So no matter what, the ac from the motor as generator gets rectified.

Dave

@FRC
Hey George,
Did that Alum battery continue to work for you with the 3BGS?
Thanks,
Randy

Waiting for some higher readout amp gauges before I blow up any more meters doing testing

Dave

Hey guys, I have been following your thread on he 3 battery system, and decided today, I would have a very basic crack at it.

The only thing in very large suply laying around my house is 9v batteries, so I used them.

I used 3x heavy duty woolworths essentials brand batteries, 2 of which were pretty charged to full and one fairly dead one, it had been discharged alot. (reading 3v or so on meter.

all these batteries have been sitting round quite a while before I used them. I did a quick measure of all batteries before starting and got 21v total from all 3 batteries.

I used jumper leads for all the connections, placing b1
(highest charge) in series with b2. I then connected a small motor between the positive of b1 and b3 (flat batt). I then connected a 12v led strip which consists of 3 white led's - positive to neg of batt 3 and neg of strip to neg of batt 2. just following d bowling charger schematic.

the light's come on bright farily instantly and brightly. the motor did not run at all the whole experiment (not that i was fussed, just cause te ciruict called for it). I measured the batteries again and total voltage in system went to 27v, with the flat battery reading around 9v also.

I kept on measuring total voltage in each battery under load every 5 min or so and noticed all battery voltages still going up slowly but surely. After about 30min I exchanged the led strip load for a small 1.5v pocket radio which ran quite loud, but after a minute or two the batteries started to diminish where I could not get FM anymore just AM.

I let this run for about 20-30 minutes on AM until it was too crackly and voltage was draining quite quick.

I removed the pocket radio and replaced the load with my led strip again. It lit instantly but not very brightly. I let it run for about 20minutes again and all batteries had recovered to the point just before i disconnected them in the first place. The led burning very bright again after catching up on some charge. I let it run or a couple of hours and notice the batteries taking longer to charge as 2 of them at near their peak voltage. and after a few hours the charge down sightly but burning brightly. I removed the so called charged batt and plugged that into an 8x3led strip to burn off and placed another dead or near dead battery in 3rd position and getting same results.

don't know if motor needs to be in the circuit or not, but might remove it later and see if same results. all the batteries seem to charge under load but not if load is too big, it seems to love lights.

anyways my 2 cents chaps