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  #1021  
Old 05-06-2012, 11:38 AM
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Man got a PESwiki article on him and never told us.....

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  #1022  
Old 05-06-2012, 03:20 PM
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Well,
If you read the stuff at OU, you will see that NOBODY got any good results trying to replicate, which is one of the reasons I got discouraged. Nobody seemed to be seeing what I was seeing. Of course people wouldn't pay any attention to me when I said lead acid batteries and other things, so they didn't have success. At least here MOST people paid some attention, and because of that, they saw some results. Also, there was information in the PESwiki article I BELIEVED to be true at the time, like the fact that my buddy had replicated the thing with small motors and AA batteries, which I later found out NOT to be the case, and I didn't want folks trying that because I was pretty sure it wouldn't work. So I thought it best to give as little info as possible and let people try it the CORRECT way. I have learned that nothing works until you SEE it work with your own eyes and MEASURE it with your own instruments, which is why I tell folks to just quit asking questions and build their OWN. If they can't build THIS simple system, they shouldn't be messing with free energy at all.

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  #1023  
Old 05-06-2012, 03:48 PM
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I just noticed one thing different; you placed the load between batt2 neg. and batt3 neg. not in parallel with batt3 as we tried.
was that your successful original setup? I had load across B3 in my tests..



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Vtech
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  #1024  
Old 05-06-2012, 04:51 PM
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I also hooked loads directly to it. At one point I tried connecting a voltage regulator to battery three directly, and it smoked the voltage regulator after I had been running loads off it for a few minutes, so I never tried that again. I still have that voltage regulator I believe. It was one my dad had for his solar system that he was no longer using.

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  #1025  
Old 05-06-2012, 05:19 PM
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Having seen the pictures at Peswiki from boguslaw's post I want to note one thing as it seems related to a number of devices that came to my attention recently. And that particular thing has been rumored as a possible source of the special effects being seen. What I'm talking about is an effect that can be setup a number of ways. Seeing the picture of how loose the belt appears to be I would ask if there tended to be an oscillation setup from that loose belt that may have resulted in some sort of power surging while it was running. It would be similar to having some flywheels or an offset cam in effect. It may be nothing but it's an observation that came to mind when seeing the pictures.
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  #1026  
Old 05-06-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I also hooked loads directly to it. At one point I tried connecting a voltage regulator to battery three directly, and it smoked the voltage regulator after I had been running loads off it for a few minutes, so I never tried that again. I still have that voltage regulator I believe. It was one my dad had for his solar system that he was no longer using.

Dave
Ok, Thanks for clarification Dave.
I just went again over the OU thread to see if I missed anything. I maybe wrong but it seems to me that the crucial part of this setup is the open dipole or a negistor, created in B3. Cap will not work as a substitute due to the low impedance - just like a good battery. I'm still fascinated by this setup despite other attempts.

Vtech
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  #1027  
Old 05-06-2012, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchisel97 View Post
I just noticed one thing different; you placed the load between batt2 neg. and batt3 neg. not in parallel with batt3 as we tried.
was that your successful original setup? I had load across B3 in my tests..



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Vtech
If that was the original setup it seems easy enough to try and I'd say it's certainly worth exploring a bit. I'm going to give it a try. Like this?
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File Type: jpg 3bat-orig.jpg (13.0 KB, 68 views)
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  #1028  
Old 05-06-2012, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
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If that was the original setup it seems easy enough to try and I'd say it's certainly worth exploring a bit. I'm going to give it a try. Like this?
Yes ewizard, at least to my understanding. I just hooked my motor setup 30min ago because something else started staring me in the face. If the impedances withing this setup are so important, including thick wires...what about the impedance of a load? We could use different light bulbs but their impedance varies according to the passing current. It can be low when the filament is cold but will rise as soon as the filament starts to glow.
I hooked 20W bulb and she is lit happily but series bank started to drop. I replaced the bulb with older, 2 filament headlight bulb (at least 50W) and the filament isn't even glowing but my serial bank isn't dropping anymore. Actually, it recovered 0.02V after switching to bigger bulb. This is the bulb between the negatives of B2 and B3, not the one across B3. I'll keep this running and take notes. Maybe it is nothing but the devil is in details

Vtech
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Last edited by blackchisel97; 05-06-2012 at 11:43 PM. Reason: correction
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  #1029  
Old 05-06-2012, 06:55 PM
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well, we need more pictures and magic will be resolved I hope
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  #1030  
Old 05-06-2012, 07:27 PM
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This system requires BIG loads

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchisel97 View Post
Yes ewizard, at least to my understanding. I just hooked my motor setup 30min ago because something else started staring me in the face. If the impedances withing this setup are so important, including thick wires...what about the impedance of a load? We could use different light bulbs but their impedance varies according to the passing current. It can be low when the filament is cold but will rise as soon as the filament starts to glow.
I hooked 20W bulb and she is lit happily but series bank started to drop. I replaced the bulb with older, 2 filament headlight bulb (at least 50W) and the filament isn't even glowing but my serial bank isn't dropping anymore. Actually, it recovered 0.02V after switching to bigger bulb. I'll keep this running and take notes. Maybe it is nothing but the devil is in details

Vtech
Hi Guys,

This is something David and I have discussed about this system. That is, that with this system, you need big loads - the bigger, the better. High impedance is good... Indeed, its what makes this system work the way we're doing it. Also, on at least one occasion, when David was seeing voltage rise on all of the batteries, he was running a big shop vac off of his inverter which was tied to battery 3... So there's an added motor thrown into the scenario...

I've gotten the inverter to run connected between the negatives of batteries 2 and 3 but only briefly messed with this. I need to do a lot more work with this arrangement... The motor was still connected between the positives of betteries 1 and 3...

Best regards to all,

Luther
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  #1031  
Old 05-06-2012, 08:00 PM
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Guys,
When we first set this thing up the very, very first time, we were using a small 12 volt motor from some kind of child's toy. I have already posted all the info I have on this. We used whatever junk wire we had lying around. It worked, and we got all excited. So the next day we tried a different, larger 12 volt motor from a robotics kit. It still worked. So then we went out and bought battery cables and volt meters and switches and all kinds of crap and set up a system on a large piece of plywood. It is that setup that I had the shop vac hooked up to and saw the primaries increase in voltage to the point it scared me. Then I took the thing home, but that big piece of plywood wouldn't fit in my car, so I disconnected everything and took it home and just reassembled it on my bench using what wire and stuff I had at home. Eventually I bought some #6 wire and end connector and drilled the connectors and the connectors on my batteries out so a bolt would fit through and I could bolt them to my batteries.

All of these setups worked. All of these setups had ONLY three things in common ... A 12 volt (not 24, 36 or 72) motor, the SAME bad battery, and a LOAD on the motor.

It is my belief and always has been that you HAVE to use a 12 volt motor with this "3 battery" setup to get the high RPM's you need for the magic to happen. With higher voltage motors you may need to use MORE batteries and it MIGHT still work. I also believe the right battery number 3 is the other ingredient. Like Matt has said...we could look a lifetime for the perfect sulfated "BAD" battery. But I am going to have a three battery setup so I can test every single one I get my hands on!! That's for SURE!!

I am still looking for the pictures. I have moved to CA from AZ since those pics were taken, and gone through a divorce and remarried, so lots of things have gotten moved, and I am worried that I might not have them anymore. I thought I KNEW where they were, but they are not in that folder. (On the computer) I will keep looking, but the setup in the PESwiki pictures is after I ran wires from everything into a "black box" and all my connections were inside it. I had it set up so that you could charge battery 4 in parallel with battery three, and then disconnect it with switches to run a load off of it. This was so I could hook an inverter to battery four and a killowatt meter so that I could tell how many watts hours of power I could get out of the system. This never worked well because as soon as you drained the battery too low, the inverter would kick off and the kilowatt meter would lose its reading, so you had to be standing right there watching it every second to see how much power it had put out before it shut off, and that's an insane waste of time. I finally used a 12 volt 100 watt bulb as my load and just charged battery four and drained it, over and over again, keeping track of how many hours I ran the 100 watt bulb.

Dave
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  #1032  
Old 05-06-2012, 10:17 PM
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Thanks Luther and Dave
My motor is not very powerful so I have to adjust the load accordingly, but it has brushes and it will run from 5V-30V. I can't spare any $ atm on another one.
It might not produce sufficient spike at lower rpm to sustain primaries. I just turned off after 4.5 hr run and primaries dropped 0.05V during the run and switching different loads. I need to improve motor load so it is steady and adjustable.

Vtech
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  #1033  
Old 05-06-2012, 11:38 PM
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original connections

Dave so is the schematic E-wizard showed correct??
Also 4 years ago did you only add load to the motor to increase input to the 3rd (accumulator) battery??
And is Fathershand a good method of testing to find a good candidate battery for the accumulator?

I'm still doing tests with the original set-up, 2 primaries and one accumulator,but would like to verify the correct connections.

I think this system combined with a couple other systems will lead to the answer, but clairification of the connections need to be made.

And I do believe the key is in the commutor ,that is what I have been trying to mimick with an external switch, but timing is everything.

Thanks to all for your post's ,I find inspiration in just about all of them ......shylo
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  #1034  
Old 05-06-2012, 11:51 PM
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I have not done much

with this lately after that run where I got all those crazy readings and then couldn't duplicate it. Honestly I can't to my satisfication be 100% sure if I used only the one meter that was on the wrong setting.
So as we used to say in the bodyshop when a problem came up, "We'll smoke it over." That meant grab a cup of coffee and a cigarette, sit down at a distance and consider it. That is what I've done in the past week. Manual switches, solder connections, different batteries, trying to eliminate as many variables as possible. That is what I have decided to do that makes potential mistakes less likely. Though I've had to wait also 'till the 3rd.
I've got in mind several things to try but first I want solid connections and reliable switches.
-Lyn
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  #1035  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:08 AM
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I ran different combinations of things, but the original WORKING system ran with loads (and sometimes the fourth battery) connected directly to battery 3 in parallel.

I had a pulley and turnbuckle connected to motor (as in the PESwiki picture) and tightened the turnbuckle to put more of a load on the motor to get battery 3 to produce more power. But that original motor ran THROUGH a gearbox, so there was always SOME load on the motor.

I would watch the voltage on the primaries, and you could see them begin to drain, so I would tighten the turnbuckle and they would go back up.

It wasn't until I began to experiment more recently that I began to use a generator as the load on the motor because it gave the added advantage of ALSO producing power, but the load on the motor still has to be synched with the load on battery three.

Hope that helps.
Dave
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  #1036  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:20 AM
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@ Turion Have you tried to use the old wires, cables from your original set up?? One thing to consider is the relaxation time of the electrons. In my setup ur original 3bgs. When I was using aluminum wires, the system perform much better, burned the motors, bulbs. and its one of the reason I've never tried it again is because its keeps burning everything I hook on it, I have already burned several small 12 volt motors, 12volt bulbs, even the new ones . and this is just using 3 6volts SLA. And I think your right with the 12 volt motors, Max rpm. the original setup works!
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  #1037  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:24 AM
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Dave, was your 4th battery bad as well or half a decent one? I got 2 deep cycle which will not hold a charge despite draining, washing, rubber mallet therapy and few days cycling on my charger. One of them will climb up to 16V but doesn't hold more than 5-6V after rest. That's the one I tried today.

Every bit of information helps, even if you repeat something you have said on the beginning of this thread. I read entire thread over OU and found some details which skipped my attention before.

Thanks

Vtech
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  #1038  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:29 AM
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My 4th battery was a good one that would take a charge.

I would use my old wires, and have drug out the # 6 wires I had in a box from back then. I'm sure that BIG wires make a difference, but wouldn't be surprised if LENGTH of wires make a difference too. Too many variables here.
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  #1039  
Old 05-07-2012, 12:43 AM
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Just need to deal with the variables one by one, until nothing is left to solve
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  #1040  
Old 05-07-2012, 05:22 AM
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I'm glad someone read the entire thing over at OU. Sometimes memory and reality are two different things! LOL. I do have my actual notes from back then, but I wasn't exactly scientific about keeping those either. All I know for sure is it worked right up until I disassembled it to take it to CA to meet with a patent attorney. I reassembled it in CA to do a demo for the attorney, but it was so loud we did not run it for long in his office, so I'm not sure whether it worked at that point or not. I was using all new batteries I got in CA because I didn't take my batteries on the plane with me, and I didn't realize how important the batteries were, so chances are it DIDN'T work at that point. When I returned home to AZ and reassembled it, it never worked correctly again. What I took to CA was the motor and pulley assembly and some wire to connect everything, all mounted on a board that would fit in my smaller suitcase. I had given my bad battery back to the guy it belonged to, not realizing how important it was to the system working, and that was it.

Dave
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  #1041  
Old 05-07-2012, 07:50 AM
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Yeah, I worked as IT specialist on crash scenario resolving. The first question after something was broken was :
when ,where, who , what has changed since last effective run ?
so, who was able to fiddling with your system in CA ?

P.S. Of course it has sense only if you have original batteries.
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:58 PM
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I tried to run again, late last night but motor would start right away despite B3 being drained from previous run.
I also tried yesterday run bigger load with B4 in parallel with B3 but converter was cutting on and off. I'll go back to 3 batteries for now if B3 decides to cooperate again. Indeed, too many variables. I don't even know if my motor is good enough for this project but will keep trying.

Cheers
Vtech
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  #1043  
Old 05-07-2012, 02:24 PM
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And again here is what I don't understand. With battery 3 DRAINED, the system starts immediately. WHY?????????????? Battery 3 should be just as "DEAD" as it was the first time. The FIRST time the motor would NOT start immediately, correct?? The "dead" battery would not ALLOW it to. But the instant it allows the motor to start, even if you disconnect it INSTANTLY and drain it overnight, it will STILL allow the motor to start immediately the second time. WHY??? If it is not an ELECTRICAL CHANGE, perhaps it is a MAGNETIC change. (Unless it is just a change in sulphation, in which case it needs a few days to "sulphate up" again)

I have been thinking about doing something to the battery to affect its MAGNETIC field during operation. Maybe tape a bunch of neo magnets to each end of the battery, or wrap the battery with a bunch of wire and connect noes to them. What do you guys think? Try to create an artificial situation that prevents the battery from allowing the motor to start. If THAT could be controlled, perhaps we would have the key to the whole thing. If you remember when I described what happened to the original setup. When the switch was thrown, nothing happened except the voltage jumped to about 24 volts. After about fifteen minutes the voltage had gone down to 18 and the motor suddenly started. The voltage CONTINUED to go down to about 8 volts, and then the motor shut off, and the whole process started over again. This was with no load but the motor. When I connected LOADS on battery three, it would NOT continue to drop down to the 8 volt point, and therefore would NOT shut off. So, we need to induce a state in the battery where it WILL drop down to the 8 volt point if we don't connect loads. If we can't induce that state in the battery electrically (and so far we have not seen anyone come up with a battery that would consistently do this as far as I know) then perhaps it is time to try to do this magnetically. I've got about 60 1" noes I can tape all over each end of the battery and see if that has any interesting effects.

Dave
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  #1044  
Old 05-07-2012, 02:40 PM
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Dave what would happen if

you wrapped bat 3 in copper windings and and connected the ends to the terminals? Would you have a giant coil, transformer? Or nothing.
It might be interesting.
Just a thought.

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And again here is what I don't understand. With battery 3 DRAINED, the system starts immediately. WHY?????????????? Battery 3 should be just as "DEAD" as it was the first time. The FIRST time the motor would NOT start immediately, correct?? The "dead" battery would not ALLOW it to. But the instant it allows the motor to start, even if you disconnect it INSTANTLY and drain it overnight, it will STILL allow the motor to start immediately the second time. WHY??? If it is not an ELECTRICAL CHANGE, perhaps it is a MAGNETIC change.

I have been thinking about doing something to the battery to affect its MAGNETIC field during operation. Maybe tape a bunch of neo magnets to each end of the battery, or wrap the battery with a bunch of wire and connect noes to them. What do you guys think? Try to create an artificial situation that prevents the battery from allowing the motor to start. If THAT could be controlled, perhaps we would have the key to the whole thing. If you remember when I described what happened to the original setup. When the switch was thrown, nothing happened except the voltage jumped to about 24 volts. After about fifteen minutes the voltage had gone down to 18 and the motor suddenly started. The voltage CONTINUED to go down to about 8 volts, and then the motor shut off, and the whole process started over again. This was with no load but the motor. When I connected LOADS on battery three, it would NOT continue to drop down to the 8 volt point, and therefore would NOT shut off. So, we need to induce a state in the battery where it WILL drop down to the 8 volt point if we don't connect loads. If we can't induce that state in the battery electrically (and so far we have not seen anyone come up with a battery that would consistently do this as far as I know) then perhaps it is time to try to do this magnetically. I've got about 60 1" noes I can tape all over each end of the battery and see if that has any interesting effects.

Dave
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
And again here is what I don't understand. With battery 3 DRAINED, the system starts immediately. WHY?????????????? Battery 3 should be just as "DEAD" as it was the first time. The FIRST time the motor would NOT start immediately, correct?? The "dead" battery would not ALLOW it to. But the instant it allows the motor to start, even if you disconnect it INSTANTLY and drain it overnight, it will STILL allow the motor to start immediately the second time. WHY??? If it is not an ELECTRICAL CHANGE, perhaps it is a MAGNETIC change.

I have been thinking about doing something to the battery to affect its MAGNETIC field during operation. Maybe tape a bunch of neo magnets to each end of the battery, or wrap the battery with a bunch of wire and connect noes to them. What do you guys think? Try to create an artificial situation that prevents the battery from allowing the motor to start. If THAT could be controlled, perhaps we would have the key to the whole thing. If you remember when I described what happened to the original setup. When the switch was thrown, nothing happened except the voltage jumped to about 24 volts. After about fifteen minutes the voltage had gone down to 18 and the motor suddenly started. The voltage CONTINUED to go down to about 8 volts, and then the motor shut off, and the whole process started over again. This was with no load but the motor. When I connected LOADS on battery three, it would NOT continue to drop down to the 8 volt point, and therefore would NOT shut off. So, we need to induce a state in the battery where it WILL drop down to the 8 volt point if we don't connect loads. If we can't induce that state in the battery electrically (and so far we have not seen anyone come up with a battery that would consistently do this as far as I know) then perhaps it is time to try to do this magnetically. I've got about 60 1" noes I can tape all over each end of the battery and see if that has any interesting effects.

Dave
Hi Dave. Yes. it puzzles me too. I just measured B3 @ 2.3V after being shorted with 20W bulb overnight. Before previous run it was sitting at 5.5V and would not allow the motor to start right away.
It seems like the battery becomes somehow "polarized" in similar way as iron particles align under influence of magnetic field and remain "organized". My choice of words may not be the best but I hope you can follow me.
What I've been thinking since mid winter is to introduce the Earth into it. Not the mains ground!

@Turion If you tape magnets at each pole you may want to reverse their polarity vs battery.
@clueless I like your idea..
Vtech
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Last edited by blackchisel97; 05-07-2012 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:09 PM
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Turion Turion is online now
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clueless,
I have about 3,000 feet of multi strand speaker wire that I don't care if I melt into a useless blob of metal and plastic, so I will give that idea a shot also. What do I have to lose but a mess of wire, and possibly a small fire! LOL
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:45 PM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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And again here is what I don't understand. With battery 3 DRAINED, the system starts immediately. WHY?????????????? Battery 3 should be just as "DEAD" as it was the first time. The FIRST time the motor would NOT start immediately, correct?? The "dead" battery would not ALLOW it to. But the instant it allows the motor to start, even if you disconnect it INSTANTLY and drain it overnight, it will STILL allow the motor to start immediately the second time. WHY??? If it is not an ELECTRICAL CHANGE, perhaps it is a MAGNETIC change. (Unless it is just a change in sulphation, in which case it needs a few days to "sulphate up" again)

Dave
When you totally discharge batteries, especially if you do it repeatedly, the difference in capacity of the cells starts to show up. In this situation one or more of the cells reach total discharge and then start to charge with the opposite polarity, it may be that when you think the battery is totally discharged you might have charge in all the cells but three cells charged one way and three charged the other. If this is the case the impedance may not be so high.

Could this be your problem?
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:14 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Originally Posted by blackchisel97 View Post
Hi Dave. Yes. it puzzles me too. I just measured B3 @ 2.3V after being shorted with 20W bulb overnight. Before previous run it was sitting at 5.5V and would not allow the motor to start right away.
It seems like the battery becomes somehow "polarized" in similar way as iron particles align under influence of magnetic field and remain "organized". My choice of words may not be the best but I hope you can follow me.
What I've been thinking since mid winter is to introduce the Earth into it. Not the mains ground!
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Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
When you totally discharge batteries, especially if you do it repeatedly, the difference in capacity of the cells starts to show up. In this situation one or more of the cells reach total discharge and then start to charge with the opposite polarity, it may be that when you think the battery is totally discharged you might have charge in all the cells but three cells charged one way and three charged the other. If this is the case the impedance may not be so high.

Could this be your problem?
No A battery does not re polarize unless the crystal formation has been eliminated and rebuilt.

As far charge goes you can measure a battery and the thing will have 5 volt or so but drop to 0 immediately upon load or have infinite impedance. Then the next time you measure 2 volt but it can take load or a charge. Same Battery.

The difference is where the voltage is coming from. A sulfated battery is like capacitor, so it stores charge from the immediate environment or from the fluid. This is just a skin charge. Charge sitting on the outer surface of the plate.
Now if you hit that battery with 24 volt and some current your going to boil off the sulphation with heat. This allows the plates to start actually showing charge from the crystal structure of the plate. Further along the sulfation thins out and the plate charge goes up.
No battery will be completely dead ever, Unless there are no lead ions in the fluid, and the acid is at a ph of 7 or so and it is neutralized back into water.

Matt
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:20 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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No A battery does not re polarize unless the crystal formation has been eliminated and rebuilt.

As far charge goes you can measure a battery and the thing will have 5 volt or so but drop to 0 immediately upon load or have infinite impedance. Then the next time you measure 2 volt but it can take load or a charge. Same Battery.

The difference is where the voltage is coming from. A sulfated battery is like capacitor, so it stores charge from the immediate environment or from the fluid. This is just a skin charge. Charge sitting on the outer surface of the plate.
Now if you hit that battery with 24 volt and some current your going to boil off the sulphation with heat. This allows the plates to start actually showing charge from the crystal structure of the plate. Further along the sulfation thins out and the plate charge goes up.
No battery will be completely dead ever, Unless there are no lead ions in the fluid, and the acid is at a ph of 7 or so and it is neutralized back into water.

Matt
I hear what you are saying about the plate structure

Several batteries that I have been given to recover have suffered from a cell reversal. The cause of the reversal was cranking the engine when the battery was already getting flat (people seem to do that a lot here). I was able to detect this by inserting meter probes on each individual cell, a method I use to detect shorted cells.
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Old 05-08-2012, 03:21 AM
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I tried another run tonight, 3 hrs total. I started with fully charged batteries and drained B3. Motor started slowly, within 5 sec. With running motor and 20W (probably around 15W, since the voltage across was below 10V) I was able to maintain primaries within 0.04V on both during entire run. Motor draw at this voltage level was under 1A. I don't have a clamp meter to measure without interfering with circuit.
I did notice fluctuations within 0.01V during which motor was changing speed slightly and spikes across motor coil were different. Sometimes only 1-2V, sometimes near 20V.
What I want to try tomorrow is a commutator on the motor shaft which will interrupt flow trough its coils. I don't know if this make sense or not. I think my DMM's across primaries will go crazy.

@Matt Yes, you're right about polarization Thanks

Vtech
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