blackchisel97,
Glad you are having fun and getting positive results!

Clueless,
I ordered an inverter like yours also, so Luther and I will both try to replicate the results you are getting. If success is as simple as having the right inverter, we will all be happy! I wish I had the answers to your questions, but maybe Carroll or Matt, or Luther can help you out.

Of course I won't get a chance to replicate your setup or Matt's for a few days. I'm leaving at 5:00AM for a four day camping trip.

I have no idea if I will get cell reception there or not, but I am charging the battery case for my i-phone. I haven't been using my new case since my old one exploded into flames while I was holding it in my hand, talking on the phone! Can everyone say "Lawsuit?" I've been afraid to carry it around in my pocket for fear my man parts might go up in flames, but I want to be able to access the forum and see what you guys are up to! And I know my phone battery won't last four days!! The things we are willing to sacrifice for free energy!

Anyway, hope you get it all figured out while I am gone! Take care!

Dave

Thanks for sharing clueless!! Your model does'nt have an automatic shutoff system if your battery voltage is too low with a big load on it. It was discontinued for that reason. I think we just need to find out how to modify our electronic inverters to do the same. I hope its not just a misunderstanding of the meters working with radiant (static).

Clueless, this is what I had PM'd you about - to make sure David and I were looking at the right model... We've both ordered them so now we're waiting for them to get here...

Regards,

Luther

on that odd battery. I didn't know that model had been discontinued. Actually come to think about it I know very little about it.

or that is not enough light this morning but I did a quick run to verify yesterday's results this time with a light on the odd battery. All voltages were in the range you'd expect,12-13 volt range. Now for the odd part, after disconnecting the motor and generator all the batteries showed 24 volts. I don't know what to think now.
The odd battery does now have moisture around the terminals where it was dry before. I do have another dead battery I'll try later.
Okay, went out to check again and I think I may have solved this mystery, my friend who was up last friday used one of meters to check the AC voltage out of the inverter, he didn't reset it to DC and I didn't recheck it yesterday. Lesson learned.
I imagine I used that one to check the voltages, and I can't seem to get it work now on DC. Probably burned that one up. The only thing is that the motors did seem to run faster and smoother yesterday and I can't imagine I used that same meter on all the batteries. Right now I am in limbo and I am extremely sorry if I gave any of you a bum steer.
On the other hand the 4th bat did charge some and ran a 12 volt bulb.
-rg

Clueless,
Use that same meter (the one you had accidentally set on AC, set on AC AGAIN) to check the voltages and see what you get today. Then check those SAME voltages with a different meter set correctly to DC. That may clear it up.

Dave

Hello Clueless,

No worries if there is something going on with the meter readings... I needed a bigger inverter anyway... Its all good - we'll get this system sorted out soon.

Cheers,

Luther

Or maybe come up with our own
I found same model on the net but it looks a bit different than described earlier.
This is nice discovery
Just got home with 8 more batteries. Unfortunately, not deep cycle but one good candidate for A2. I have it running for the past 2hrs and fairly stable but the freq. is much, much higher than Matt was running. I put two caps (and recovery diodes) since I don't have any dead wing batt's.
I'll keep an eye on it and try to tune better. This isn't easy.



Cheers
Vtech

Tripp Lite makes heavy duty UPS's and inverters and have for a long while. I see a couple used ones on fleaBay right now. I've got an old Tripp lite UPS and it's built solid. I'm having a hard time imagining how this would be part of the magic but I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from trying. Maybe some sort of combination of parts that sets up a resonance on the input more easily than others?

I had a few hrs run today, scoped across GB,P1, FET etc.Yes, there are spikes but for some reason I can't get enough from secondary winding With 20W load I have double of what I get with 5W but there seems to be a limit. When I increase the load my secondary output drops.
I was running this since 11am and I lost quite a bit. A2 is desperate to fix itself and I have to drain completely after each run. I reduced freq. down, under 10kHz.
I'm driving P-Fet with 50% square.
Something isn't right.

Vtech

I changed back to N Fet and disconnected voltage multiplier since I couldn't tell much difference with and without it.
I measured secondary before adding a bridge and (if I can trust my meter) I get up to 67V, depending on switching frequency.
The battery I used before began to hold too much and my next one isn't "dead enough". I put some iron shavings into it and hope to fix this problem.
I was running few times yesterday but couldn't sustain GB & P1.
Is it possible that I have too many windings on secondary? I didn't want to cut the wire from original coil and left 2 x 100T (approx.) which is more than double what Matt was showing.
I'm puzzled for now but need to recharge good batteries anyhow.

Vtech

OK, it looks like first good run in 2 days. I let it run for 1hr.
Freq. 1,997Hz (2kHz) measured across secondary winding.
20W load - car bulb.

GB 12.59V, P1 12.56V resting
GB 12.42V, P1 12.40V during 1 hr run. Across A2 with 20W load - 12.3V
Recovered to:
GB 12.60V, P1 12.58 after 1hr rest.

No diodes or capacitors, just a basic circuit. N Fet pulsed with square @ 50% duty cycle.

Vtech

I'm a bit of a manic/depressive and after thursday's run I was sky high enough to get very little sleep that night. Friday's results that indicated a wrong setting on my meter and the inability to replicate threw me for a loop. After the hysteria of thursday came the backlash and sleeping around the clock on friday.
I'm also a football enthusiast and watched the draft to switch to something less stressful.
I spent the time in between analyzing what I could have done better. I need better wiring, conections, and professionalism. That is while my friend left the voltage on AC (while checking the inverter) it was my responsibility to care for my tools. Bodyshop 101!
Again I apologize to anyone whom I misled.
While I might be working from my porch in the weather that is no excuse for sloppy procedures.
I can't say for certain now either way those readings I got on thursday are accurate. I honestly can't believe I used the same meter on all 4 batteries but I can't say that I didn't either.
I will on my next test use a different battery but only until I have better connections and schematic in place.
Thanks to everyone for all your enthuasism for this project and I hope I didn't damper that.
I believe from what I've seen that the motors can be run with little to no draw on the primaries with the A able to run loads and a genny (from the 2nd motor charge another battery (bank) for at least a small scale power source.
-rg

Hey clueless,

Don't worry about it so much. We have all done the same thing at one time or another. I have 50 years experience in electronics and I still forget to change the meter from AC to DC or vice versa. The only difference is I know what to check when things look funny. Now you have learned something so don't consider it a complete loss. We all have days when we think we finally have it and then the next day realize we forgot something or we did something wrong. I thought the other day one of my batteries was showing some strange very quick recovery from the run I finished. Then I remembered that I had just charged it the night before because it was getting very low and I had forgotten to write down the charge state before starting the new run and was going by the figure I had written down before I charged it! So take care and don't get discouraged by a bad day or few mistakes. They really do come to all of us.

Carroll

Don't worry, we all learn from mistakes. I doubt you could use same meter and believe you have discovered something important. I found converter on eBay and it fits your description; fins, 17lb etc. but they quote shipping to Canada about $100 but for US only $25
After two days of failures I discovered wrong connection in my setup. I couldn't believe I could done it Now, when I can hear transformer singing I realized that this sound was missing until today. I simply mislabeled start and end of one through winding.

Just finished second run, this time 1.5hr and converter with 13W bulb as a load. GB and P1 were sitting at 12.41V - 12.40V and 12.37V - 12.35V.
A2 sits at 11.7V despite having few nails inside.
After 30min GB and P1 are 12.60V and 12.56V.
This time I was running at 2.55 kHz.
It looks good to me. I was going to try heavier load but my batteries aren't deep cycle and I don't want to drag them down too low.
Is anybody else beside Matt working on this variant?

Cheers
Vtech

Nice run! I've got parts on order to build Matt's latest schematic.

Regards,

Luther

Hi Luther,
I'm driving FET from function generator which gives me control over freq. duty cycle, offset etc. I'll get proper driver done later. I was just to anxious to test it. I set it for third run tonight. I'll hold for 2hr and record results.

Cheers
Vtech

I am going to set up another one this week. I got my big 3kva trafo back. It'll be interesting to see what it and a couple 1400 cca batts do.

I gotta couple of more ideas to try out with the caps and stuff.

Matt

I'll search for couple of large EI as well. I want one for your TS replication.
I tried substituting A2 with cap but I think it should have fairly large capacity. I only have 10,000uF available atm.

I took a shot of secondary AC side and below scope across GB. Those spikes are beyond the screen but they would be poorly visible at higher V setting.
Just finished third run. After 30min rest GB and P1 recovered to 12.56V and 12.50V, so in total during 4 hrs runs with 20W load I lost approx. 0.07V
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[IMG][/IMG]

Cheers
Vtech

Hello,

About a month ago me and a friend decided to try and set up this 3BGS, but unfortunately it seems we haven't been lucky enough to pick one right "good bad battery" not even dreaming of getting 3 of them. It has become pretty hard to find old batteries around my place since they do so much to have everyone recycle them !

When I read Matthew Jones' post describing a possible system using no motor and replacing A1/2/3 with capacitors I regained serious hope that we "might" finally join the party...

I downloaded the schematics and went literally image by image through Matt's video covering his first setup (still with a battery as A3) to understand it as correctly as I could. I must admit I have no experience in electricity whatsoever and though reading a schematic doesn't scare me, it is not always easy for me to understand what component to use and where.

That is why I redrew Matt's schematic (the "N" one) in a more realistic view of the components. I've attached this drawing to the post (as a pdf file for readability). In the process I also tried to identify suitable components that might fit the requirements. So here comes my humble help request: could someone of the more experienced people around this thread please take a little bit of their precious time and review my attempt and probably correct it ?

Components references that I (supposedly) identified are noted on the drawing, those in orange are the ones I have doubts or questions about (many of them ). If of any use to the potential reviewer of my drawing, here is a list of digikey's website references of the selected components:

MOSFET and gate driver
IXTN170P10P IXYS | IXTN170P10P-ND | DigiKey
FOD3180 Fairchild Optoelectronics Group | FOD3180-ND | DigiKey
Transformer
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...rds=VPS230-110
Capacitors
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...s=ECET2AP123FA
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...=CGS422U075R4C
DC converter
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...=VFSD2-S24-S12

I'll now shoot a few questions I have and that are hopefully not so stupid that no one would even care to answer them (sorry if they are).

From what I saw on Matt's video, and from blackchisel97's earlier posts, I think I understand the MOSFET gate driver must be triggered by some sort of pulsating signal that will act as the "balance" to the load that is placed at the A2 end of the circuit, am I right ?
blackchisel97 reports running at 2.55 kHz with converter and a 13W bulb saying he's using a "function generator which gives him control over freq. duty cycle, offset etc...". Could you please tell us more about this function generator. I saw that Matt is using a "Parallax Propeller" and digging this indicated that it is a programmable microcontroller .
Any help pointing in the direction of suitable material would be appreciated, also I can quite easily understand that a "function generator" could generate a pulse at a given frequency, but what is the duty cycle and how/why control it ? Same for offset, any additional information in that field is welcome.

Back to the components, in Matt's video it appears that the setup he had at the time he shot it wasn't "complete" compared to the posted schematics. I noticed two main differences:
1- I couldn't detect the diodes (and their wires) that are linking A1 and A3 to P1+ and GB(P2)- , what model should those be ? I recall reading earlier that they have to be "super fast diodes", is that right ? (part reference welcome)
2- I couldn't either detect the capacitors that are in the schematics right at the output of the rectifier. A few questions here:

• could someone give a part reference for the D2 rectifier ?
• could someone enlighten me about those capacitors function (C1/C2 in my drawing) ?
• I assumed from previous posts that 4200uF/65V could fit for them, is it correct ?

And here comes my last question at the moment: the voltage converter I picked is mostly shooting in the dark... Could someone explain me what are the requirements for this component (in the current circuitry I mean) ? Once again part reference is welcome.

As a final note, remarks regarding mistakes that I might have done in my drawing are also welcome naturally

Well, hope this post isn't too long and will get a chance of bringing me the answers I still need before I go and order everything to start building it !
Oh, btw has anybody already tried the 3 capacitors as accumulator configuration ?

Thank you all for sharing this and hope to hear from some of you soon.

Thibaut

Attached Images

MJM2B3CGS-N.pdf (87.8 KB, 46 views)

Welcome bitbox,

FET's need to be driven in certain way to switch properly (just as bipolar transistors do). What is needed here is a pulse generator/driver which will provide square pulse (preferably with regulated duty cycle - ON/OFF time) and variable frequency.
Ideally, generator it should be galvanically separated eg. by optocoupler to prevent any spikes from destroying IC in it. There are many ways to get this done and many IC's will work, including 555.
STAMP or PIC will provide precise pulsing and can be adjusted by changing code.
I have couple IC in the mail but since I have BK function generator, I decided to use it. It provides square wave and I can adjust dc from 1-99% but I'm running at 50% here. I also have option of variable TTL/CMOS outputs.
I have a negative budget atm. and I try to work with the stuff I have available.

I'll try to answer you other questions later but Matt would be the best person to address them.

Cheers
Vtech

I am about to show some more stuff. A few more components so If it were me I would hold up. That way I'll be able to tell ya if all this works out or not.

Just make sure the rectifier is rated high enough to do what your doing. I cannot predict your loads and stuff.

Everything else looks OK.

Matt

Thank you guys for taking the time to answer me...

blackchisel97, I'll certainly have to read your answer a few times again and google a lot for it to make sense to me but I'm convinced the information it contains will lead me to a better understanding of what is required as a "fonction generator"...
I would also greatly appreciate any further answer if you find the time...

Matt, I'll definitely wait for your post before going any further !
Tanks already for taking the time to look at my drawing and reassure me that I don't have it all wrong after all

I'm so impatient to join you guys in the building !

Regards.

Thibaut

What I am setting is basically a pretty solid method for keeping the batteries charged, while running a load.

I have become convinced though that a gradual loss is going to be inevitable unless somehow an outside power source is introduced into the system.

But maybe we can end up with something like a 100 watt load running with a 10 watt or so supplement. Thats fairly significant. And I don't mean for an hour. I am personally looking at month.

I already know from some other projects I have running at the moment that you can extend the power taken from the batteries pretty far. But to achieve a stable battery charge it takes 6-8 times more (Depending on the battery health) to keep the batteries from falling while running. And it is a highly processed method for re introducing the power.

If you aren't up to speed on an IC you better start getting there.

As soon as its all stable and safe I'll get it to you guys.

Also you can pick up a Propeller from Radio shack about 35 dollars. I can tell ya from personal experience and others who have took the advice its worth every penny.

Matt

We'll end up with somthing

I didn't mean to make things complicated, sorry about that.
In this setup FET transistor acts as a simple ON - OFF switch, connecting two batteries in series for a brief moment.
In order for transistor to do that we need to trigger its base withe relatively small pulse. This pulse has to last certain time and turn off. Duty cycle means relation between ON and OFF time. 50% means they're equal. This is a square wave. In order for any transistor to switch sharp this input pulse has to have sufficient amplitude. (sometimes referred as a "hard switching").
For this setup you don't need a function generator, only square wave with adjustable frequency and duty cycle.

I hope I expressed myself clearer

Vtech

10 Watt supplement for such a long run would be great. If up-scalable, say 100W for 1kW .
I'm thinking of something but I need to try it first. Maybe nothing.

Vtech

Hi Matt,...you say it takes 6-8 times more to achieve a stable charge...
Does that mean 6-8 times higher than battery voltage?....72-96 volt pulse??
Or is it 6-8 times more than what were drawing off the batteries??

I currently have 6 coils on my pmg (room for 30 more)..I can charge caps to 14volts in ~3 sec , then discharge into P1.....but I don't think this will maintain charge.....but by adding more coils I will be able to dis-charge caps into primaries faster.

I can make the cap bank ,either higher in capacitance or voltage or both.( I've got a bunch of caps)

I've tried alot of different scenario's with this ,but eventually the primaries lose in the end.......just need to keep them topped up.

Just curious what your view is on pulse charging batteries, Or anybody else's for that matter.

shylo

blackchisel97, thanks for the clarification, it's crystal clear this time !

Cheers.

Thibaut

6-8 times the power to hold the battery steady. The trick is you can hit with less at higher voltage 2x-3x but the battery has to be off or just turning on when you do it.

I do not know what PMG is...

Matt

I guess, he is referring to permanent magnet generator...

Vtech