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  #871  
Old 04-21-2012, 11:13 PM
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Matt, are you thinking about pulsing the resister with a motor, a reed or maybe something like the Stamp?

I've been thinking about a load in parallel with the resistor and still pulsing the resister, and wondering if that would work.

I'm in bad with a badly sprained ankle today, and it's KILLING me. I want be down in the basement working! My wife has to work from home tomorrow though, so I will have the whole day to work in the basement.

Matt, I found a place to get a bunch of golf cart batteries cheap(er) for the BPG.
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Last edited by Turion; 04-21-2012 at 11:16 PM.
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  #872  
Old 04-22-2012, 01:27 AM
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fathershand fathershand is offline
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More Tests

Dave, I'm sorry to hear about your ankle. What happened?

Matt, Dave, I feel that the radiant energy gets in more and more as the motor slows down when we load it. I also think we are going to have to "help" the motor with a "make and break" part of the circuit.

Matt, what about my question concerning the capacitor and mbrownn's idea for replacing the Accumulators with caps?

I'm going to get some more accumulators on Monday.
Tony
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  #873  
Old 04-22-2012, 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by fathershand View Post
Matt, Dave, I feel that the radiant energy gets in more and more as the motor slows down when we load it. I also think we are going to have to "help" the motor with a "make and break" part of the circuit.
Matt, what about my question concerning the capacitor and mbrownn's idea for replacing the Accumulators with caps?
Tony
Tony all you can do is try. And while were at it, there is no radiant energy in this system.

You guys need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid from your monopole days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Matt, are you thinking about pulsing the resister with a motor, a reed or maybe something like the Stamp?
I've been thinking about a load in parallel with the resistor and still pulsing the resister, and wondering if that would work.
I'm in bad with a badly sprained ankle today, and it's KILLING me. I want be down in the basement working! My wife has to work from home tomorrow though, so I will have the whole day to work in the basement.
Matt, I found a place to get a bunch of golf cart batteries cheap(er) for the BPG.
I am just going to pulse the system, and instead of using a motor I'll use transformer.



Matt
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  #874  
Old 04-22-2012, 02:17 AM
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Let me try to explain this. No Better I'll give you radiant riddles.

If you turn this on one time, build a magnetic field, collapse it, whats the rate of deterioration on the transient from inductive collapse? And how many points generate energy in this circuit both real and virtual?

LOL

Matt
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  #875  
Old 04-22-2012, 03:32 AM
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Radiant Riddles

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Let me try to explain this. No Better I'll give you radiant riddles.

If you turn this on one time, build a magnetic field, collapse it, whats the rate of deterioration on the transient from inductive collapse? And how many points generate energy in this circuit both real and virtual?

LOL

Matt
It all depends what gigawatt size flux capacitor that you use on the N-gate. Ordinarily, the regenerative factor goes high and the flux gate triggers the flux nano particle that we are searching for. However, most people use bucky-balls in their normative state, but this is only on alternate Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Tony
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  #876  
Old 04-22-2012, 04:19 AM
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I could be out of my head on this, but what I think I see is that
There is the voyage that goes out of the primary batteries. It arrives at the coils in the motor and there is a secondary about of electricity produced here that seems to go in both directions. Some of it goes back to the primaries, or at least the primaries show a spike after the motor gets hit with voltage. Then you hit the batteries with voltage and SOMETIMES they seem to hit back! So I would say at least three sources of energy in this system, all coming from the PROPER use of the energy in the primaries. Of course I don't have the kind of equipment needed to prove any of this, or more likely, I just don't know how to really USE what I have.

Think I have everything to replicate your circuit Matt, except I need to check my specs on my Fets. I only have one model of Fet.
Dave
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  #877  
Old 04-22-2012, 04:54 AM
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You can use the Fets you got. I'll post the setup in the morning for an Nfet.

Matt
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  #878  
Old 04-22-2012, 06:01 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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I have simulated the circuit the best that I can. Circuit Simulator Applet

Note that the power drained from the source will result in mechanical power (input power x motor efficiency) and that we get to use that same electrical power again in the load resistance. COP will be 1 x motor efficiency + load power, probably in the region of 1.5

The BEMF going to the source can possibly cause the anomalous charging effect we know can happen in lead acid batteries resulting in little or no loss in power in the source. COP of infinity.

Using this circuit to recover a dead battery over the last 24 hours has been successful, I am quite impressed. I have been using a battery charger as the source whose open circuit voltage is 15v. I noted that the voltage is 15.5 volts using this circuit. note that there is a smoothing capacitor on the output side of my charger and the back spikes may be giving this small boost in voltage. The charger is rated at 12 amps but was drawing only 0.45 amps when I measured this voltage. If I put the amp meter in the circuit now that the battery has recovered the motor stops and the circuit draws about 100mAmps
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  #879  
Old 04-22-2012, 06:16 AM
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That's what I was up to few days ago, before my motor arrived.
What is the electro-physical model of DC brushed motor?
A stator with permanent magnets, rotor with coils and commutator. We have coil resistance, inductance, idle current (to overcome friction) and BEMF as a result of magnetic field collapse. Without the diodes those spikes seem to go both directions. Our commutator and brushes are excellent mechanical on/off switch.

Matt,
Are you thinking to simulate DC motor in our setup with a coil or transformer and FET switch ?
I had another good run today with single "bad" battery and started making generator but I have this persistent thought that both, motor and "bad" battery can be substituted with something different and we may end up with solid state version.

Dave, try to get some DMSO gel from local vet for your ankle (you may have to say it is for your dog). It has strong antyinflammatory properties and will reduce swelling/discomfort within 15-20min.


Vtech
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  #880  
Old 04-22-2012, 06:24 AM
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I am going to make a few bold statements.

The only energy consumed in a motor is the result of ohmic and hysteresis losses. The rest if the electrical energy fed into a motor passes out of the other side. The mechanical power comes at no cost and is a free byproduct.

it is for us to learn how to capture this wasted energy that passed through the motor and this 3 battery generating system shows us a way.

The anomalous charging effect of lead acid batteries, that are subject to transients produced in a coil, is well known has been reproduced many times and in many ways. Again this 3 battery generating system exploits this effect.

Once we understand this, it is only a matter of time before we can produce machines that easily, effectively and repeatedly take advantage of this and the days of big oil are over.

keep up the good work
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  #881  
Old 04-22-2012, 07:47 AM
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My self diagnosed ankle sprain turned out to be gout. That's why I'm not a doctor. Since I can't walk much, I get out of doing my chores and can work on this! All I have to do for this is sit at my bench. That I can do!

So I will be working on this all day tomorrow, using one setup and set of batteries or the other.

mbrownn,
I like your statements!!

blackchisel97,
Solid state would be nice. I like the motor running for free though. It remains to be seen whether or not it needs to be eliminated from a solid state version.

Dave
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  #882  
Old 04-22-2012, 10:32 AM
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Hi Matt,

In your latest schematic when you turn on the Fet you are applying 24 volts reverse polarity to batt a2 less the drop across the transformer. Is that to try and keep a2 from charging up or did you just get a couple of lines crossed when you were drawing it up?

Later,
Carroll
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  #883  
Old 04-22-2012, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by blackchisel97 View Post
Matt,
Are you thinking to simulate DC motor in our setup with a coil or transformer and FET switch ?

Vtech
No. This is not like a motor as motor cannot inductively pass current to second set of winding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Hi Matt,
In your latest schematic when you turn on the Fet you are applying 24 volts reverse polarity to batt a2 less the drop across the transformer. Is that to try and keep a2 from charging up or did you just get a couple of lines crossed when you were drawing it up?
Later,
Carroll
Look here's what happens.
I pull 24v+- from the primary in pulse for given time.
It goes through the transformer, induces current on the secondaries, then deposits into A2. Then it is abruptly shut off.
Now the secondary windings takes the initial pulse and sends it to the multiplier, and back into the transformers primaries to replicate and deposit in A2. 2x for 1 pulse.
But we also have that spike that showed up when we first turned the thing off. So now we are up to 3x.

So now start looking at it running say a 30 percent duty cycle. Kinda like spinning a flywheel.

Then you got the induced current on the wing batteries. And what ever type of back EMF shows up and gets replicated accross the transformer.

You follow me?

Matt
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  #884  
Old 04-22-2012, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Hi Matt,

In your latest schematic when you turn on the Fet you are applying 24 volts reverse polarity to batt a2 less the drop across the transformer. Is that to try and keep a2 from charging up or did you just get a couple of lines crossed when you were drawing it up?

Later,
Carroll
I do have it drawn backwards I see what your saying. I'll fix that.
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  #885  
Old 04-22-2012, 06:24 PM
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GB Change Request

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I do have it drawn backwards I see what your saying. I'll fix that.
Matt, thanks for posting this. It looks like we are headed into the final stretch of the race.

Could you please change the GB designations on the good batteries to P1 and P2 for Primary 1 and 2?

Thanks
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  #886  
Old 04-22-2012, 07:42 PM
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No!!!

I am busy building the thing. "Good Battery" = GB

Matt
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  #887  
Old 04-22-2012, 08:41 PM
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Matt,
Can't wait to see how that turns out. I'm stuck in bed, can't walk, in pain, and of no use to anyone. LOL. That's ok, I have an endless supply of self pity. I wasn't looking forward to soldering that H11d1 anyway. Those things are so dang small that making connections is always a big pain in the butt!! I have to get out my big document clips, screw them down to a board, and use them to hold the little buggers while I solder. I have tried using a circuit board but I always mess them up. Guess I'll just have to get to an electronics store tomorrow and get some more boards, PLUS a smaller soldering iron. Mine is too bulky and I am too clumsy. So I'm laying here checking in every five minutes to see if anyone ELSE has attempted to replicate your setup and to see what results you're getting. Can't wait to find out.

Dave
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  #888  
Old 04-22-2012, 09:48 PM
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Hi Dave,

I already have the pulsing circuit which I shared a few pages back. I am looking for a transformer that would work good with this. Very sorry to hear you are not able to participate right now. Wouldn't it be a shame if this circuit of Matt's turns out to be just what we are looking for and you didn't get to try it until after we find out it works great. Of course if it did turn out to be what we needed I guess you would get over it wouldn't you.

@ Matt, That looks like it might be a real interesting circuit to try. I hope to be able to try it later this evening if I can find the right transformer. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Later,

Carroll
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  #889  
Old 04-22-2012, 10:50 PM
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testing

In all the tests I've done ,I always lose on the primaries....If I let it run long enough.
If you run it for a short period of time, the P's seem to hold ,even gain a little in charge.
What makes the P's hold their charge or even increase???

Does it have to do with the collasping field,in the wire itself??...just a thought.

I use diodes to interupt the coil.

I think the brushes in the dc motors are kind of doing the same thing.

I have a magnet rotor attached to my radiator fan (which is my motor according to the schematic)

I charge caps and then pulse them into my primaries.

Does anybody have any suggestions at which capacitance and voltage to pulse the batteries with??

Just regular car batteries..definately something happening here....

Thanks shylo
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  #890  
Old 04-22-2012, 11:23 PM
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Hi guys,

I have finally gotten some time to work on this again. I have gotten a mosfet switching circuit to work on this. I have the motor connected the same as we have been doing and the mosfets connected across batt 3 to vary the current through the motor. It works very well with my little radio shack motor. It also will control my scooter motor although it will get pretty warm depending on the duty cycle. I have attached a schematic of the mosfet circuit. Thanks to Vissie for allowing me to modify his circuit and share it with the rest of you.

While I was working on this I had a scope connected to my 2 good batts to look at the spikes coming back to them. I discovered something that seems pretty strange. I only had the motor connected with the mosfet circuit as a load on batt 3. I have a switch in line between the motor and batt 1 positive. When I turn that switch off I still get spikes back to the good batts until the motor comes to a stop. There shouldn't be any way for the spikes to get back to the batts because the circuit is open. I checked this several times and they were always there until the motor stopped. I am using shielded scope leads so I don't think they were picking up the spikes and especially since the ground lead was still connected to - connection on the battery. Strange?

Carroll
citfta,
I haven't forgotten about your circuit, or about what you said about the spikes hitting the primaries AFTER the circuit was turned off until the motor stopped running, even though there was an open circuit. It's one of those things I have circled in red in my notes! LOL I haven't replicated your circuit, mostly because I couldn't make out the part numbers an things on it, and when I blew up the picture you posted, it was too fuzzy to read. I have to look at those things 50 times before I can figure out how to build them, because electronics is definitely NOT my strength! Neither is spelling! So I kinda blew it off, figuring if it worked out for you THEN I'd give it a shot. Wrong attitude, I know!

Dave
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Last edited by Turion; 04-22-2012 at 11:36 PM.
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  #891  
Old 04-23-2012, 12:48 AM
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Hi Dave,

I already have the pulsing circuit which I shared a few pages back. I am looking for a transformer that would work good with this. Very sorry to hear you are not able to participate right now. Wouldn't it be a shame if this circuit of Matt's turns out to be just what we are looking for and you didn't get to try it until after we find out it works great. Of course if it did turn out to be what we needed I guess you would get over it wouldn't you.

@ Matt, That looks like it might be a real interesting circuit to try. I hope to be able to try it later this evening if I can find the right transformer. Thanks for sharing it with us.

Later,

Carroll
I'll post the movie before the night is over. It works like champ, but I have to make a few changes to the schematic. But before I do I have to find a change for the P Channel driver.
The Pchannel stays real cool unlike the N channel. But right now I am not turning it off hard enough so the part count isn't much different then the Nchannel

Also I will be posting a bit more on my forum for us Carroll. I have a transformer I can send you later this week.

Your gonna want to build this.

Carroll you already have a good idea about how this works. Just think better.

Its big!

Matt

ps Its also the first chace we have had to get rid of the dead batteries.
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  #892  
Old 04-23-2012, 01:44 AM
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OK, nowI'll NEVER get to sleep tonight! LOL. I have boxes of old transformers and I have the ones I bought for your Tesla setups Matt, including the big one I rewound. That BIG one should be in the right range for this I would think, if I remember the relationship of the winds correctly. I'll have to go back and check the notes on that, which I'm sure are on my older computer.

Matt,
I'm sure glad you got this thing working, and I'm REALLY glad to be able to get rid of the bad batteries. And when you say "We Got it" my heart almost stops! LOL. Here we go!!!

Dave
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  #893  
Old 04-23-2012, 02:00 AM
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Well we might be able to get rid of them. We'll see.

I am still waiting for the video. this is the link any way

70 more minutes

Modified 3bgs - YouTube

I live in the fricken 3rd world. What am I saying they have better internet.

Matt
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  #894  
Old 04-23-2012, 03:14 AM
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I spent large part of the day running my setup with loaded converter. I had to initially connect another bulb to prevent converter from turning off. I made simple friction block to load the motor. I got it once in balance and lost after a while. It wasn't bad run after all but I didn't gain much. However, counting inverter, 5W bulb and virtually running motor for free
My water filled battery worked well but I need to drain each time in order to start. Despite no acid in it it holds over 10V after few hrs run and it takes couple hrs to discharge with 5W/12V bulb.
I'm anxious to see your video Matt. I don't know schematics but I should have everything needed to build except the transformer. Is it off the shelf or you made it?

Cheers
Vtech
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  #895  
Old 04-23-2012, 03:28 AM
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Sheer Genius... :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
No. This is not like a motor as motor cannot inductively pass current to second set of winding.



Look here's what happens.
I pull 24v+- from the primary in pulse for given time.
It goes through the transformer, induces current on the secondaries, then deposits into A2. Then it is abruptly shut off.
Now the secondary windings takes the initial pulse and sends it to the multiplier, and back into the transformers primaries to replicate and deposit in A2. 2x for 1 pulse.
But we also have that spike that showed up when we first turned the thing off. So now we are up to 3x.

So now start looking at it running say a 30 percent duty cycle. Kinda like spinning a flywheel.

Then you got the induced current on the wing batteries. And what ever type of back EMF shows up and gets replicated accross the transformer.

You follow me?

Matt
I follow you Matt! This circuit is sheer genius! You create a wall avalance that falls back to the 24v stack and the surplus feeds the inverter. This also keeps the 24v stack topped up at every iteration...

Really awesome! I can hardly wait to get this built!

Thanks so much for sharing this circuit Matt,

Cheers,

Luther
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  #896  
Old 04-23-2012, 03:55 AM
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I'm anxious to see your video Matt. I don't know schematics but I should have everything needed to build except the transformer. Is it off the shelf or you made it?
Cheers
Vtech
The video is up. Enjoy.

The transformer is hand wound. I used one I burnt up on another experiment. I describe it in the video.

I think before its all done with, I will use caps instead of a dead battery. I can control the available voltage on the caps by the rate of switching.
I have got a few more tricks also to put the power back and if I get real digital about it I can do it in a way that makes sure you get the full brunt of the power before you lose it. Run it all around circles until entropy hits home.
I'll think about it this week a little more.

@Mbrownn, regarding your PM.
A motor by default is not capable of a transformer action, period.
You have to modify it to do anything close. Current and magnetic fields are not the same thing. Also motors are incapable of an AC current to voltage 90 deg offset which in itself will allow transients to do work immediately by allowing the current in them to be turned into forward time.
When I tell you motor is not capable of this action is not because I do not have the basic understanding of the motor versus transformer issues, Its because I know what I am talking about. I have very in depth experience with both.
Your PM should have been a HOW question and not a statement arguing a position to inform me not to misinform other people. If you have argument and proof other wise make it available. Proofs in the pudding.

@Luther
Your spot on.

@ Everyone else.
If this circuit above your head don't feel the need to run out and build it. Just give it time and most of the people here can help. Keep going with the other ideas. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Matt
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  #897  
Old 04-23-2012, 05:05 AM
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Turion Turion is online now
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Matt,
I had a feeling weeks ago that with all the work you've done with transformers and the Tesla switch, that we would see a version of this that included a transformer sooner or later, and that is kinda what I was hoping for. Looks like we are getting closer every day! Can't wait to get this built.

Dave
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Old 04-23-2012, 06:24 AM
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Matt, this is very nice I like the idea of using a cap instead of "dead" battery. It should work.
I'll try to get this done on other IC. My both PIC's are "busy" and I don't have stamp chip (never worked with it before).

Thanks for sharing this

Cheers
Vtech
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  #899  
Old 04-23-2012, 08:27 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post

@Mbrownn, regarding your PM.
A motor by default is not capable of a transformer action, period.
You have to modify it to do anything close. Current and magnetic fields are not the same thing. Also motors are incapable of an AC current to voltage 90 deg offset which in itself will allow transients to do work immediately by allowing the current in them to be turned into forward time.
When I tell you motor is not capable of this action is not because I do not have the basic understanding of the motor versus transformer issues, Its because I know what I am talking about. I have very in depth experience with both.
Your PM should have been a HOW question and not a statement arguing a position to inform me not to misinform other people. If you have argument and proof other wise make it available. Proofs in the pudding.

Matt
I apologize if I offended you and I didn't want to debate about it on the thread but I will ask the questions.

What is the action going on between the rotor and stator in an induction motor?

What is the action going on between the coils in the different configurations of a universal motor?

Can you send me a link so that I may educate myself, clearly it is a complex subject and a few pointers in the right direction would help.

No offense intended and it was never my intention to argue , Its just that I have been led to believe there are such actions going on in motors, some of which are good and some bad. The truth is a persons intent is not always clear in the written word and I would never accuse you of misinforming people.
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Old 04-23-2012, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchisel97 View Post
Matt, this is very nice I like the idea of using a cap instead of "dead" battery. It should work.
I'll try to get this done on other IC. My both PIC's are "busy" and I don't have stamp chip (never worked with it before).
Thanks for sharing this
Cheers
Vtech
I use Propeller but it doesn't matter what you use its a real simple any variety of duty cycle at any speed. You'll find funny things happening at different speeds. Big thing is use an iron transformer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post
What is the action going on between the rotor and stator in an induction motor?

What is the action going on between the coils in the different configurations of a universal motor?
A regular motor IE which is what I was referring to is OPEN reaction between 2 fields to drive the motor. A transformer is closed.
I do not know what a universal motor is but it's not the little scooter motor.

More than likely if its turning a rotor its not as efficient in transferring energy as transformer.

The big thing here is I am just trying to get this thing running and try to simulate the effect as outlined with whatever looks like it will work.

And if you do not have a working MODEL of whatever it is you want to advocate then your opinions are fine but don't PM me with them. Like I care.

I do the work then I form an opinion. Not the other way around.

Matt
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