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  #61  
Old 02-25-2012, 07:55 AM
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I have a motor I rewound according to Peter's directions, ( the X pattern) but I did not put in a second set of brushes. With proper switching you can pulse the motor and collect the CEMF and collapse of the coil on the same wires you used to supply power. This is one of the motors I have been considering using with this setup. Just haven't had the time yet. Plus I just remembered I have another DC motor with two sets of brushes, wound the same way because originally I thought you needed two sets of brushes to run that setup. Will have to give that a try.

Dave
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  #62  
Old 02-25-2012, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbrownn View Post

Yes, lead acid batteries have the ability to recover somewhat from short heavy load drains but only as much power can be drawn as is seen when the battery is drained at C20. While they might appear fully charged they should in fact not be. If the batteries are in fact keeping their charge, I am baffled

Does anyone agree, disagree or have another explanation?
http://panacea-bocaf.org/files/TopTen.pdf

Check out the section on the Bedini\ColeTesla Switch.
The idea has been put forth many times on this forum, that the way a battery charges is always from the active vacuum. No matter if the energy is hot or cold.
But the radiant\cold energy seems to have special effect on Lead Acid battery's.
Allowing them to absorb radiant charge much easier as they are conditioned to it.
There are many mysteries concerning the LAB.
Mr. Bedini said once that LAB have at least 7 different function within a circuit.
Impedence both high and low inductance, resistance, and capacitance and could be made to take advantage of all of those qualities.
And that batteries could also work using combinations of those qualities to enhance their own charging if the circuit was properly setup.
Mysteries are us! Here on this forum.
Great listening to you guys think.
Carry on.
Stephen
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  #63  
Old 02-25-2012, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I have a motor I rewound according to Peter's directions, ( the X pattern) but I did not put in a second set of brushes. With proper switching you can pulse the motor and collect the CEMF and collapse of the coil on the same wires you used to supply power. This is one of the motors I have been considering using with this setup. Just haven't had the time yet. Plus I just remembered I have another DC motor with two sets of brushes, wound the same way because originally I thought you needed two sets of brushes to run that setup. Will have to give that a try.

Dave
By x patern do you mean the wave pastern shown here electrics_158.gif (image) This pattern has very powerful interactions with the adjacent coil. If it is 4 pole it looks to be ideal for a lockridge setup, as I see it, provided that the minimum number of coils is three but the more coils the better. This would be a zigzag pattern if there were no loops.

If its two coils just set at 90 degrees that is what I call non interconnecting star wound. This has interesting properties too.

I said "you will most probably find that there is more energy in the combined output of the generator and that going into the charged battery than what is being drained from the source. It should be possible to charge three batteries in parallel this way while depleting two." this is only possible if we are collecting the inductive kickback from a pulse motor of above 70% efficiency and either feeding it to the source or to the charging battery. Sorry for not making this clear, My head gets ahead of my typing
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:05 AM
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[url]
There are many mysteries concerning the LAB.

Stephen
This is very true and a Bedini SSG proves it
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  #65  
Old 02-25-2012, 02:30 PM
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I tried two identical motors this time. They seemed to work in sync, if I put
load on one the other slowed down to the exact same RPM's. Blew another tail light bulb. This time I tried a 220v stove element as load, it did warm up a bit but very slowly, then a 110v immersion heater from a hot water tank, it warmed a bit also. Then a 1500 watt inverter first with the immersion heater, but kept cutting out so then tried the 40 watt bulb again. Was the same story as the 75 watt inverter - had to have heavy load to run continuously.

The reason I tried the stove element was that I tried it in place of battery 3
to begin with, thinking that battery 3 is a resistive load but still is allowing current to pass through it. But it just took up the 24v in series and drained the batteries a bit.

Another interesting note was that I thought that I had completely drained
battery 3 from the last run, but when I checked it, it was back up over 12 volts again. So I drained it again before trying it this time.

George
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Old 02-25-2012, 06:19 PM
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Another run

I did another run after only allowing batteries 1 and 2 to rest for about three hours. This time with a larger battery 3 (same battery I had tried before but turns out there was a connection problem that time). Much better results this time. 40 watt light would run longer before cutting out, and run continuously with just a small load on motor. Next I tried hooking up a small 2 amp charger off the inverter and it worked well charging a fourth battery. Next the second motor again and the RPM's increased. All ran nicely with this arrangement. I
shut it down after about 45 minutes. I hope I will not ruin the good batteries
going over half an hour and not letting them rest longer.


George
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  #67  
Old 02-25-2012, 09:29 PM
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This could help here

From the Donald Smith thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenssurplus View Post
Several years ago on the EVGRAY forum there was a person who developed a Tesla Switch using capacitors instead of batteries which operated very well using the principle of capacitative induction, where as long as you could supply a steady potential to one side of the top capacitor, then there would be a usable potential induced in the capacitor dielectric and switched between bottom capacitors. I don't recall all the details very well, but I remember that hardly any input power was required.

Anyone here remember this from EVGRAY?
This three battery generating system (even in its present form) could work as a viable home power generating system. This would require enough batteries so that you would have multiple three battery setups. Adequate motors to charge generators to charge even more batteries. An automated battery swapper. The weakest part of it would be maintenance and replacement of the number 3 "bad batteries" One would cycle through a
number of 3 battery setups through a 24 hour period. Combined with solar it could be used during non light hours. In its present form it would still be very expensive to do. Improvements are needed to bring the total cost and size down for this to work. Lets hope we find them.

George
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  #68  
Old 02-26-2012, 12:46 AM
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A friend of mine ran his 12 volt brushed DC motor splitting the NEGATIVES rather than the positives for 10 hours on a battery that was so bad (in the third position) that it held only milivolts (It came from the junk pile). He had no load on the system, but was just running the motor because he had no way to put a load on the motor and so could not balance it with a load on battery three. After resting overnight batteries one and two actually increased in charge. Not by much, but how many people have run a motor for ten hours and had the batteries increase in charge?

That's the good news. The BAD news is that he had two other setups, both using bad batteries in the third position that were at low voltage, and neither of them had successful runs.

I HOPE the message here is that you HAVE to have the right battery in the third position. I can't stress that enough. And just because it is low in charge does not mean it is the right battery. Keep searching. You will get there.

I do want to let you all know that I have disclosed EVERYTHING I know up to the point where I started this thread. YOU have all the information I had when I began this. I also need to say that I am part of a private group that is working on some projects, and what we learn or share within that group I have promised not to disclose. So take what was given here and expand on it. Don't give up. There is much more to be discovered here and to think that this is not worth your time would be a huge mistake. Things that I find out on my own I am posting here as long as they do not result from something shared by someone in that group. I try to keep my promises.

mbrownn
Will take a picture of the winds on that rotor. I don't think they are what you are looking for. They are two coils at 90 degrees to each other. I guess I am not familiar with the wave wind and your picture didn't make it any clearer to me. Sorry. Sometimes I am really dense!

erfinder,
I have seen that cap discharge test before. The idea being when you use that circuit to dump the voltage from one cap into two caps they both end up with the same voltage as in the original cap. I have never tried it, so don't know if it works. Sure would be nice if it did wouldn't it? A never ending supply of energy from one charged cap, as long as you have more and more caps to connect!

Take care all.
Dave
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  #69  
Old 02-26-2012, 03:54 AM
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Quick test with non rechargeable dead battery

Hi all, I tried a quick version of the 3 battery setup. I had tried splitting the positive previously with a non brushed fan motor with no results around a year ago(did not wait 15 minutes though). I have 2 sla batteries which have a total of 25 volts as the source. I ran for about 30 seconds with a dead 9 volt alkaline battery in parallel and a small brushed motor from a cigarette machine. the 9 volt is nearly completely charged in this time frame.

I am still searching for viable dead batteries, although i have a bunch, but they appear to mostly have bad cells or are all dried out.
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:19 AM
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If you HAVE a bad battery in the third position that won't take a charge, hook a battery to it in parallel that you need to charge and watch how fast that happens. This thing charges batteries very quickly. The motor has serious torque. It can do lots of work, and you can get the primaries to fully recover. As is, it is a fun little setup, but it has tremendous potential.
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  #71  
Old 02-26-2012, 08:37 AM
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Had to wade through a couple days of work, but I am running a 2nd test right now. Using only the LED's and PC fan for a load. It's been running now for a little over 3 hours, and I think the bad battery has nearly stabilized. When I first connected power tonight, the LED's came on immediately, but the fan didn't come on for about 30 seconds.
I am charting and graphing my data as I go, and will do so over several tests, to track the progress of battery 3 and the recovery of batteries 1 and 2.
I do have one more bad battery, a 12V 33Ah battery. I haven't been able to get it to charge, and I am thinking of trying it in bat3 position. Not sure if it will work, since batteries one and two are only 7.5Ah each, and much smaller than the 33Ah. If it does work, that will be incredible. I might also try hooking it in parallel to battery 3 in my next test cycle, to see if it charges, and how it effects the test.

I have noticed that the LED's will blink off occasionally, and the fan will momentarily slow down at the same time. I haven't been able to find a regular pattern to how often these disturbances are happening, but it is fairly often.

I will keep testing and tracking the data, and report anything I find. When I get my next check, I am thinking of picking up a 12VDC motor to try this with, so I can increase the load on the system without having to add addition components, just put some tension on the motor drive.

Great info coming in so far, and thanks to everyone for sharing your data!
this is a pretty fun little experiment to have going, and still be able to work on other things at the same time

N8
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  #72  
Old 02-26-2012, 09:53 AM
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I want to try a second 3 battery setup and have alternate runs between the two. The last run I did was the best so far. To me it seems that the bad battery
that works best is one that will still take a charge but can not retain it for very
long. I am also going to try a third motor and maybe even four, also try a different sized motor a long with the one I have been using. Maybe even a PC
fan as one of them.

@ Turion, another possibility is running a second motor at the split negatives
at the the same time as the split positives is going. Or is this just a stupid
idea? Will try it to see what happens anyway.


George
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  #73  
Old 02-26-2012, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
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I want to try a second 3 battery setup and have alternate runs between the two. The last run I did was the best so far. To me it seems that the bad battery
that works best is one that will still take a charge but can not retain it for very
long. I am also going to try a third motor and maybe even four, also try a different sized motor a long with the one I have been using. Maybe even a PC
fan as one of them.

@ Turion, another possibility is running a second motor at the split negatives
at the the same time as the split positives is going. Or is this just a stupid
idea? Will try it to see what happens anyway.


George
I definitely noticed this second run has been much longer than the first before the bad battery stabilized.
It is nice to see several people all getting very similar results from different tests, shows we have a lot of wiggle room, and are on the right track!

I think the idea of splitting both positive and negative at the same time is a great idea to try. Why not open both radiant highway lanes at the same time (maybe a bad analogy, but you see what I am getting at, I hope)
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  #74  
Old 02-26-2012, 04:07 PM
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If you saw my post above, my friend had great results splitting the NEGATIVE, so you can split either, and possibly BOTH at the same time. It MIGHT just mess up how this thing works though, so I would advise getting a working system by splitting either the positive OR the negative, and then making changes. Otherwise you really don't KNOW what you have. I haven't tried splitting both, but that's why we're here; to try things and see what works. The more people that DO try this and get positive results, the better for ALL of us because it will encourage more people to give it a shot. It is so simple and inexpensive to build if you have the batteries and a brushed DC motor.

I appreciate all the efforts by all of you. When I brought this to Overunity.com four or so years ago, NOBODY got any good results. They didn't use lead acid batteries and were in such a rush to see what I had seen that the wanted the whole pie right now and wouldn't do short little test runs to see what was happening. SO no one believed me. I think they all thought I was a fraud.
This go round, many of YOU are seeing success, and all of my friends I have shared this with on the forum, who aren't even posting here, are seeing it too. So keep looking and lets figure this out.

Dave
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  #75  
Old 02-26-2012, 06:35 PM
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Second test run

Hello everyone. I have started retesting the 3 battery setup today. I had a few bad batteries and at first could not get the unit running. After I added new water to one of the batteries and waiting 20 minutes I manually turned the rotor and it is slowly spinning, occasionally now speeding up then almost stopping.
If using SLA batteries remember most of the time they go bad because they dry out easily. The battery I am using I added some sea salt to, to see if i could replate the cells and improve the conductivity.

I will post later today when i get time.

-sidenote, even though i could not get the unit running with some bad batteries, I noticed that the voltage on the bad battery sometimes would temporarily get up in voltage
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Old 02-26-2012, 08:57 PM
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tester16

The first bad battery I had success with is a small sla, and it still works as far as I know. I had taken it apart a while ago and added water to it, but I guess it was too far gone to save it. But for this it works good.

George
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Old 02-26-2012, 09:37 PM
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I tried before 1 26Ah 12V and 2x 4,5Ah SLA's.
The 26Ah has about 10,80V and seems has a sulfated or damaged Cell also.
The others smaller one sitting at about 10,70V and 11,70V. I had the same effect with a CD-Rom Drive Motor also.
I used for #1 26Ah, #2 4,5Ah at 11,70V and #3 the 4,5Ah at 10,70V. #3 did go up to 23V, and still did go down, and after few minutes the Motor did start running.
I did take it apart, because i would record it, but after that #3 did not go down again to less then 18V. It never works when someone's watching. At last i did see the Effect. I may blame it on #2 too, because it was weak in charge and i think it did not have enough Current in it anymore to push through both Batteries.


Edit.
In doubt, when someone dont have a DC Motor by the Hand, take your cordless Drill, take the Accu out and connect 2 Wires to the Connectors inside.
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  #78  
Old 02-27-2012, 01:30 AM
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Just some ideas on this as I had tried this about a year ago. It was a few quick and dirty tests. At times it seemed to be working using 3 SLA's through a 12 volt auto wiper motor. But all 3 batteries were marginal pulls I had on hand. Two were better than the third. I was getting quite a lot of run time on the motor and some charging on the third battery. However at one point I decided to add a Bedini style SSG into the mix between 2 of the batteries. This did help out a lot and I felt it was close to being a self sustaining circuit. But at that time I was running it with a low power transistor not made for big 12 volt batteries. I've since changed it out to a higher power transistor for another project but as yet have not had the time to go back to trying it in this 3 battery circuit. I think sometimes if we can combine two 'almost' OU circuits or two different concepts that both have merit we might push things into the 'success' zone I don't want to confuse things Turion is doing here but it's just an idea if you happen to already have a Bedini SSG laying around.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:16 AM
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I don't want to discourage people from trying ANYTHING, but I would advise you to get a system put together that works FIRST, and then see what you can do to improve it. If it doesn't work in the first place, you aren't making it any "better" by adding something else to it, you're making something new. Not that making something new is wrong. But what I have found is that people try a couple different batteries on this setup and it doesn't work, so they immediately start changing things. And then they get discouraged because it didn't work and they quit. Try 50 different batteries in the third position like I have done over the years, always trying to find one that works a little better, and THEN change something or add something.

If you had seen the power produced by my original setup, you wouldn't be trying to build ANYTHING else. Believe me.
Three lead acid batteries
The one in the third position won't hold or take a charge and is as dead as you can get it.
One permanent magnet DC 12 volt motor.
The batteries connected by battery cables, not small wires.
Here are my original lab notes if you want to read them.
David Bowling's Continuous Charging Device
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:32 AM
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Your third battery seems critical, maybe it would be an idea to try and define it.

Things like voltage, how much does it hold? acid SG? etc etc. I am sure this could help
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:51 AM
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Thanks for pointing those out. I was aware of your thread on OU but had not been through to that page. I wonder what property it is of a particular dead battery that is helping create this special condition. If we can answer that I would then ask if there is a way to duplicate those characteristics with other components so that we could keep the 'special' dead battery characteristics all the time. Just thinking out loud ... a dead battery would have a particular resistance, capacitance, impedance .... inductance? what else? Maybe this has already been covered in your lab notes. Was their any other unusual conditions in the area of the batteries at that time OR the area the batteries were in? If I recall you said you moved from where the original experiment location. You know that saying in real estate? It's location, location, location... could that have something to do with this? I came across some special map a while back that I had never seen before. I have been trying to recall what type it was as it was not a magnetic field map but it was found that certain experiments would not work in many areas of the U.S. and only in a few areas did they work well. These experiments were what I would call quantum physics and may be related to ZPE, radiant energy or similar. The map was an actual government map but at the moment I can't recall what type it was. Memory sucks at my age sometimes. Rambling is another thing
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:53 AM
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Your third battery seems critical, maybe it would be an idea to try and define it.

Things like voltage, how much does it hold? acid SG? etc etc. I am sure this could help
I guess we were on the same frequency as I was thinking about the same things and while I was writing my last message you were posting some of the same...
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:25 AM
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great minds think alike
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Old 02-27-2012, 06:48 AM
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Quote:
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Your third battery seems critical, maybe it would be an idea to try and define it.

Things like voltage, how much does it hold? acid SG? etc etc. I am sure this could help
I think that is what we are working towards at this point. Perhaps I have missed something, but I thought what we are trying to do here is figure out what makes one battery work and another not work, so this is widely repeatable on a larger scale.
That is why we are testing so many bad batteries, trying to find ones that work, then figure out why it works, then trying to determine how to make the system work without having to constantly find new bad batteries to use in the third positions.

to me, the ultimate goal here is to find a load/storage (bad battery stand in) that will allow the batteries on the good side to run a motor and power a load, without using any energy out, or at least be able to cycle out a few sets of batteries, so some are running, while others are recovering.

It would be nice if we all had batteries with the same properties to test and mass a huge amount of data, but right now we all have what we have and will make it work
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:06 PM
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3 motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRC View Post
I want to try a second 3 battery setup and have alternate runs between the two. The last run I did was the best so far. To me it seems that the bad battery that works best is one that will still take a charge but can not retain it for very long. I am also going to try a third motor and maybe even four, also try a different sized motor a long with the one I have been using. Maybe even a PC fan as one of them.

@ Turion, another possibility is running a second motor at the split negatives
at the the same time as the split positives is going. Or is this just a stupid
idea? Will try it to see what happens anyway.

George
Have not tried a second 3 battery setup yet. Did try three identical motors
this time. Adding extra motors is equivalent to placing a load on one motor,
output to load on bad battery 3 increases. This time the only load was a
12v halogen light. I was wrong before about RPM's, they decrease rather
than increase when motors are added. Although it seems that torque gets
better with extra motors, but I could be wrong. I also tried a different sized
motor and was amazed how fast it ran, though the two larger motors decreased in RPM's. This small motor was one I had attached a sort of a flywheel to with heavy (for its size) ceramic magnets on it hoping to make a type of Lockridge/Watson hybrid. Well I was amazed with the free spin time after disconnecting it. The original idea, a year ago, with this motor was to pulse it and have the free spin time continue while the magnets passed coils. Which brings up the notion of pulsing the motor with the basic three battery
setup . Even though things work okay in its present form, pulsing the motor
might serve to extend the runs longer.

Splitting both positive and negative
----------------------------------
This did not work out as well as hoped. This arrangement only slowed down the motors. But applying load to one motor sped up the RPM's on the other motor. Power to the load on the battery also decreased, and it appeared that the good batteries were now being drained. So ended this experiment quickly.

Prior to all these runs, which only lasted about 20 minutes altogether, I had
topped up the batteries with a regular 2 amp charger and had depleted the
bad battery to about 1 volt. After a 2 hour rest battery number 1 was down
.17 of a volt, battery 2 was down .05 of a volt, and battery 3 had only increased to about 5 volts. I think the losses were due to the positive split/negative split combination.

George
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:04 PM
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3 motors

Did another run for about 45 minutes using 3 motors again. Using halogen light
for load on battery 3 and adding tail light bulb from time to time. When adding
tail light bulb intensity of halogen would decrease but motor RPM's would increase. Then tried the 3 motors in series instead of parallel. They all ran slower, since all this did was divide the current. Now it seems like I am making battery 3 worse. It only reads about half a volt now. Battery 1 and 2 are down a bit but are recovering. I did the readings right after shutting things down so will check again after a longer resting period.

George
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:19 PM
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From what I have experienced, everything works until the plates in the bad battery begin to absorb energy. Then the ability of the system to generate power slowly fades. The reason for this is the potential difference becomes less as the plates begin to absorb. So in order to get it work, we need a continued potential difference. Once that is lost the dipole is closed and you're out of luck. That's why with a totally sulfated battery you can get really long runs. Days long....WEEKS long, as I did the first time. The PERFECT battery is one with NO voltage and so much sulfation on the plates it won't absorb any charge at all. That is where we have the greatest potential difference. Now if we can think of a way to duplicate that, we have it. It's as simple as THAT.

What can we do to a standard battery to achieve this situation. How can we duplicate it without a battery. For instance, a cap gives us the potential difference, and a resister would keep it from charging. Maybe that combination would somehow work. But first, find yourself a DEAD battery with NO voltage in it that will not take a charge, and PROVE to yourself that it is ALL you need for this thing to work like magic. Go find a hundred dead batteries that have been thrown away and test them to get the ones with no voltage. Those are the ones you want to try. Somewhere, somebody will come up with that perfect battery, and then you will see what I am talking about. Until then, the lower the voltage of the bad battery you have, and the less it will take a charge, the better it will work. Maybe even batteries with bad cells. That reduces the voltage but I don't know what it does to the potential difference.

If battery 3 never, ever charges, but you can hook a generator to the motor as a load, isn't THAT good enough? If you can't put much of a load on the motor, but you are able to extract all kinds of energy from battery three, isn't THAT good enough? Well, you should be able to do BOTH if you match the two loads and you have that dead battery in the third position. You are pulling current generated from the motor out of wires connected to battery 3 before it ever gets a chance to charge, so you get 12 volt generated current that you can use to run the inverter forever. You get both of these things until battery three starts to accept a charge, and then everything begins to dwindle.

I also think we are getting the CEMF of the motors sent right back down the wires to charge the primary batteries because of the way we split the positives (or negatives). But that's ANOTHER story.

Dave
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Last edited by Turion; 02-27-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:06 PM
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FRC FRC is offline
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Correction

Bad battery 3 was still hooked up to halogen light when checked. Now that it is
disconnected voltage is rising.

George
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:21 PM
plengo plengo is offline
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Amazing system. I read last night about this system and quickly I went to my lab to try out.

I have a few bad SLA batteries to test with. My first setup worked out of the box just like you Turion said and one of the videos shows.

The battery 3 MUST BE DEAD and unable to carry a charge. You are so right. It seams that that battery works as a infinite sink to Battery 1 and 2 and keeps generating energy but since it is unable to hold charge one can use that power into a load.

My setup work best when I put a load on battery 3 (bad one) while the whole thing is running. Unfortunately as you run battery 3 starts to get better and things start to suck energy from B1 and B2. One must keep a large load on B3 to keep it from charging.

Below is my understanding of the system.

Fausto.
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Last edited by plengo; 02-27-2012 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:47 PM
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plengo,
That's the setup. You got it right the first time. I'm glad you are seeing some success. Just don't make your runs too long, and batteries one and two will always recover. I don't know how many runs you can make on the system before you have problems with batteries one and two recovering, but I know I have pulled out way more energy from my setup than batteries one and two could possibly hold. My kilowatt meter tells me that, so it's a FACT, not a "belief." And they are still holding their voltage. And it is NOT a surface charge on batteries one and two. I have tested that also..voltage under load. AND I have had the energy produced by my motor hooked up to my energizer for free. So am I producing more energy than the system takes to run? Absolutely, positively, unquestionably, Yes. I need a kilowatt meter that doesn't reset, so I don't have to watch everything so closely, because the minute I shut down, you lose the present run reading. So I always have to write down the reading before I shut it off, and then add it to my total output. But at least it works.

The issue is not what I can do with this system, but what YOU can do. Can you repeat these results? Can YOU find a really good "bad battery" (an oxymoron if I've ever heard one) and make short runs until your kilowatt meter tells you that you have far exceeded the power that two batteries could possibly produce. Then can you make longer and longer runs until you learn to watch the good batteries and kill the power when you see them begin to go down, so you can let them recover. And then how do we make it better.

plengo,

Possibly your solution is the simplest...keep a huge load on battery three, so there is no chance it will charge. I have wanted to try different diodes and resisters, but am trying to get things welded up for my energizer and it's taking all my time away from more experimenting on my setup. Tell your friends and neighbors and let's get more and more people involved in making a working system out of this. The solution is here somewhere. We just have to find it.
Dave
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Last edited by Turion; 02-27-2012 at 06:05 PM.
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