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Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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  #691  
Old 04-07-2012, 09:45 PM
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citfta citfta is online now
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Matt is correct. A shorted condition means the resistance would read very close to zero. This also means a SSG would not light the neon when connected to a shorted battery. The neon only lights when connected to a battery that has high internal resistance which would normally be caused be a badly sulphated battery or a battery with broken internal connections as Matt said. There are a lot of people that do not understand the difference between shorted and open. Shorted means very low resistance and open means very high or infinite resistance.

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  #692  
Old 04-07-2012, 11:41 PM
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Hey Matt,
I've been on pins and needles waiting for you to post the video of your shorting experiment with the big resistor. I know folks are gonna want jump all over that because of the results you got. It only worked the one time with my 18 amp hour batteries, and that was it for them. I've tried twice right after recharging them and still no joy. They are fine for everything else, but just don't have the guts for that experiment. I ran it again this morning with the deep cell marine batteries and got what I was hoping for, so I can back you up on the results because both times on the big ones it worked. I don't know how many others are running motors on larger batteries, but I don't think it will work with the smaller ones from what I have seen. I believe Luther also tried with the smaller batteries and was unsuccessful with them, as did a couple other folks who aren't reporting out their results here. But the few of us who have tried it with the large batteries have been successful. Monday I intend to get up early, pack my lunch, head to the basement and run it for as much of the day as I possibly can so that we have the data on a really extended run. I will shoot some video, but I will probably just do the beginning and the end results.
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  #693  
Old 04-07-2012, 11:52 PM
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Yes, we need higher impedance (sulfated battery or a substitute) not a low one. When the impedance is low motor will run as soon as we flick a switch and drain our primary bank while loading battery 3. No magic.
I got my second setup hooked up. Still searching for second set of booster cables to replace thinner wires (12 atm). I use car heater motor (perm. magnet, no brushes). I bought 12/24/36V DC motor today but it may take few days to arrive.
My battery 3 wasn't bad enough, actually I was in the process of restoring it. It's Interstate, 800CCA. The other two are also similar size. I'm getting near 16.4V and the motor starts to sound like my first VW. I have a scope across and the wave looks like a sawtooth with 3-4V spike at each apex. I'll probably shoot it down in a minute and let the batteries settle to get reading.
I have a feeling that I'll need few bad batt's for this. All I have are restored.

Cheers
Vtech
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  #694  
Old 04-08-2012, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Hey Matt,
I've been on pins and needles waiting for you to post the video of your shorting experiment with the big resistor. I know folks are gonna want jump all over that because of the results you got. It only worked the one time with my 18 amp hour batteries, and that was it for them. I've tried twice right after recharging them and still no joy. They are fine for everything else, but just don't have the guts for that experiment. I ran it again this morning with the deep cell marine batteries and got what I was hoping for, so I can back you up on the results because both times on the big ones it worked. I don't know how many others are running motors on larger batteries, but I don't think it will work with the smaller ones from what I have seen. I believe Luther also tried with the smaller batteries and was unsuccessful with them, as did a couple other folks who aren't reporting out their results here. But the few of us who have tried it with the large batteries have been successful. Monday I intend to get up early, pack my lunch, head to the basement and run it for as much of the day as I possibly can so that we have the data on a really extended run. I will shoot some video, but I will probably just do the beginning and the end results.

I have got all my batteries tied up at the moment. 42 of them all running something.
I gotta let this other thing run its coarse I just can't stop it right now, on top of all the other stuff I got going.

I promise I'll take a film soon.

I am going to set it up on an IC and with a Fet. I just gotta get the other stuff out of the way first.

Cheers
Matt
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  #695  
Old 04-08-2012, 04:03 AM
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Update on my setup

I checked all batteries; third one went from 10.5V to 12.52V and 1&2 dropped from 27V down to 25.52V. I need to work on the load tomorrow but I think that motor making more "noise" - brushed will be better.
I'll also try tomorrow 2 diodes across bad battery and Matt's 1 Ohm test, probably on monday.

I forgot to add that motor was running for nearly 3hrs. Normally it draws 1.9A at 12V.
Vtech
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Last edited by blackchisel97; 04-08-2012 at 05:14 PM.
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  #696  
Old 04-08-2012, 05:07 AM
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If my math is right

you gained .9 volt overall. All 3 bat at the start: 37.5 volts and at the end 38.4 volts. I don't know if I'm looking at it wrong but it seems to me you ran the motor and gained some in the process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackchisel97 View Post
I checked all batteries; third one went from 10.5V to 12.52V and 1&2 dropped from 27V down to 25.52V. I need to work on the load tomorrow but I think that motor making more "noise" - brushed will be better.

Vtech
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  #697  
Old 04-08-2012, 07:30 AM
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I found 24 pages of text to be intimidating, so as a visual learner i wanted to take thee oppurtunity to make a community mindmap of this project, so all the info is on 1 page. I think this would help any newcomer immensly. It sure would help me. I got the ball rolling. See the photo i attached.

here is the link to edit the map for the 3 battery system

Mindomo - Log In

you have to sign up,(that sucks sorry) but it lets you share a link for many people to collab. i think it will be helpful.

you just drag from the little arrow at the bottom of each bubble to make a new bubble.

Good Luck! I hope it takes off~
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File Type: jpg Picture 23.jpg (12.8 KB, 83 views)
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  #698  
Old 04-08-2012, 03:13 PM
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All,
I think you will find that for short runs you can get gains overall in the system, but without the right kind of batteries you will never get your primaries to maintain. They always lose some over time, even with a balanced load. At least that has been my experience. And I have had a hard time convincing people of even THAT, because they tell me it is just surface charge and no real gain.

I would encourage those of you who can, to start saving up for a couple of large deep cell lead acid batteries to be used in future experiments. I know they are costly and so far this has been a fairly low budget project, but the more we look at this, the more it appears you can get some things to happen with those larger batteries that have more capacity for ups and downs (you can hit them harder, and therefore they respond with higher spikes). I think that is the direction we are going to be headed with this to achieve our goals and want to give you all fair warning.

When Matt posts his video you are all going to want to replicate, and you WILL NOT get the results from 18 amp hour or less batteries. I know from experience. And I hate to see you all disappointed when you've all put in such hard work. I have this vision of your neighbors' cars with their hoods up and the batteries missing. For those of you who have a Walmart in the area they have deep cycle marine batteries for $99.00 I am investing in a bunch of those, as I want to be able to do some battery rotation and I need a bunch of them for my Tesla Switch project anyway.

Dave
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  #699  
Old 04-08-2012, 04:51 PM
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I just want to say something about those deep cycle Walmart batteries. I've got a fair number of them for various uses and in my experience they have been about the worst quality batteries I've ever had. Some only two years old are bad and won't hold any charge (by traditional charging methods). If they are up to $99 now I'd recommend looking around for another brand. The only good thing is if one is bad right away (which I've had happen twice) they are fairly good about replacing it.

Most bigger cities will also have rebuilt battery suppliers and those can come in at half or less cost than new ones. The may not last as long as new ones but you'll likely get a couple years use out of them at least and for this experiment it can save some bucks. I know things have changed in the last few years due to recycling and buy back value of dead batteries but in the past I got a lot of good batteries at those U-pull-it type wrecking yards for cheap. A lot of them were good for only a couple bucks but now I think you'll pay at least $10. Just check the date codes on them and bring a voltmeter. Stick to those less than 2 or 3 years old and ones that read over 12 volts. I know the voltage does not guarantee it's good but it generally means there are no dead cells and all the ones I got over 12 volts were good with a recharge.
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  #700  
Old 04-08-2012, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clueless View Post
you gained .9 volt overall. All 3 bat at the start: 37.5 volts and at the end 38.4 volts. I don't know if I'm looking at it wrong but it seems to me you ran the motor and gained some in the process.
Yes, the math is right. I agree with Dave about deep cycle batt's. They would work better here. I have none atm. but hoping to get some from golf carts. They're 6V but great batteries to work with.

Thanks
Vtech
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  #701  
Old 04-08-2012, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I am going to set it up on an IC and with a Fet. I just gotta get the other stuff out of the way first.

Cheers
Matt
Matt, what is approx freq. you're running? I got this setup but need to drain battery more and get bigger heatsink for Fet. I'm pulsing with square from function gen. I wasn't able to find any bad battery today since scrap place was closed.

Thanks
Vtech
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  #702  
Old 04-08-2012, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by blackchisel97 View Post
Matt, what is approx freq. you're running? I got this setup but need to drain battery more and get bigger heatsink for Fet. I'm pulsing with square from function gen. I wasn't able to find any bad battery today since scrap place was closed.

Thanks
Vtech

I doubt its given frequency. I'll list out what happens.
You have your motor running straight into the battery.
Then you connect the resistor and you get surge from the motor.
This surge causes the primary batts to drop (Surge currenta), and then they come back a bit.
As soon as they come back you release the connection from the resistor.
Now the batts spike back up above where they were, let them go back down to running voltage.

Repeat....ect..ect.ect..

I did this for 2 hours and lost nothing in my batteries. The motor was pushing 1.2 -1.5 amp and running a small load from its attached generator.

I am getting hooked up now and I will have that filmed this evening.

Cheers
Matt
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  #703  
Old 04-08-2012, 11:00 PM
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battery sources

If you live near a golf course or a forklift supply, you can possibly buy used batteries from them cheap. They are all deep cycle, high amp hour batteries with lots of reserve potential. Most golf batteries are 6 volt Trojan or equivalent and most forklift are either 24-48 volt, with most being 36 volts. Also heavy equipment batteries are high amp hour as well as over the road tractors. many sources are available if one of these are located close to you. Almost all these sell repacement batteries and take used ones in as trade in. Good Luck. stealth
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  #704  
Old 04-08-2012, 11:26 PM
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Deep Cycle Batteries

hi guys,

I was at costco yesterday, they are now selling deep cycle batteries, I did not get a chance to look at the weight, and could not find a manufacturer mark, but they look like crown manufacturered and they have the costco warranty. 89 dollars 225 amp hrs equivilant to trojan t125's

Tom
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  #705  
Old 04-08-2012, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I doubt its given frequency. I'll list out what happens.
You have your motor running straight into the battery.
Then you connect the resistor and you get surge from the motor.
This surge causes the primary batts to drop (Surge currenta), and then they come back a bit.
As soon as they come back you release the connection from the resistor.
Now the batts spike back up above where they were, let them go back down to running voltage.

Repeat....ect..ect.ect..

I did this for 2 hours and lost nothing in my batteries. The motor was pushing 1.2 -1.5 amp and running a small load from its attached generator.

I am getting hooked up now and I will have that filmed this evening.

Cheers
Matt
Ok, I follow now. I thought you're pulsing resistor with Fet but gated from another pulse source.
I'll wait for your video.

Thanks
Vtech
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  #706  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:39 AM
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Hi guy's, I'm joining in for a while. I've got a big stack of bad batteries that
have resisted all means of desulfating I've tried. So I grabbed one and
connected it as in the simple arrangement on the first page, I used a small PM
DC motor which uses about 1 amp and after about 2 minutes it started
spinning, the voltage of the bad battery went straight to almost the voltage
of the two series batteries which was 25.6 volts then as the bad battery
voltage dropped under the pressure of the voltage, a voltage difference
appeared and became more and more which allowed the voltage difference to
cause more and more current. After stopping it the bad battery went to 8.4 volts
where it is now sitting. This is promising because 12 months or more ago when
I tried to desulfate this battery it wouldn't rest above 5 volts.

I have noticed when reclaiming batteries it helps to run a small load from a
battery that will not take charge, by doing that it causes the current from the
load to "loosen the battery" a bit, then it will take charge.

I think this is doing a similar thing but with an external power source and
rather than draining the bad battery it is charging it, of course a small load
cannot be run directly from the bad battery unless the bad battery already
has some charge enough to run a load.

Anyway I'll see what happens with this setup after a while, I need to see if I
can arrange a useful load for the motor like a small generator.

I have a stack of about 10 big bad batteries. I have nothing to lose unless
one blows up in my hut. I don't think that will happen with a 1 amp load
though.

Cheers
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  #707  
Old 04-09-2012, 11:22 AM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmhand View Post
Hi guy's, I'm joining in for a while. I've got a big stack of bad batteries that
have resisted all means of desulfating I've tried. So I grabbed one and
connected it as in the simple arrangement on the first page, I used a small PM
DC motor which uses about 1 amp and after about 2 minutes it started
spinning, the voltage of the bad battery went straight to almost the voltage
of the two series batteries which was 25.6 volts then as the bad battery
voltage dropped under the pressure of the voltage, a voltage difference
appeared and became more and more which allowed the voltage difference to
cause more and more current. After stopping it the bad battery went to 8.4 volts
where it is now sitting. This is promising because 12 months or more ago when
I tried to desulfate this battery it wouldn't rest above 5 volts.

I have noticed when reclaiming batteries it helps to run a small load from a
battery that will not take charge, by doing that it causes the current from the
load to "loosen the battery" a bit, then it will take charge.

I think this is doing a similar thing but with an external power source and
rather than draining the bad battery it is charging it, of course a small load
cannot be run directly from the bad battery unless the bad battery already
has some charge enough to run a load.

Anyway I'll see what happens with this setup after a while, I need to see if I
can arrange a useful load for the motor like a small generator.

I have a stack of about 10 big bad batteries. I have nothing to lose unless
one blows up in my hut. I don't think that will happen with a 1 amp load
though.

Cheers

Just remember we are not trying to fix the bad battery. For more detail read the very first post. Davids got it all laid out.

Matt
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  #708  
Old 04-09-2012, 01:29 PM
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Just checked my batteries from last night run. I used another candidate for batt 3 but it wouldn't start unless I had a load across. I tried different loads and with just a 5W dome light I could feel the shaft turning very easily, hoping it would start to run. It didn't, unless I increased a load. I let it run anyhow but I've lost 0.2V. I don't thing it is good candidate. I'll search for another one.
(Maybe they should use the same criteria for presidents - let it run a bit and see if the economy recovers)

Cheers
Vtech
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  #709  
Old 04-09-2012, 02:23 PM
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Don't forget, it could take as much as 20 minutes before the motor starts up depending on the shape your battery is in, and the LONGER it takes, the better the "bad" battery is for these experiments.

Dave
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  #710  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:04 PM
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12 volt golf cart batteries

I have an opportunity to buy 2 golf cart 12 volt batteries that are not any "good"?
I haven't put a meter on them yet and ifI buy them it will have to be today 'cause the recyler is coming tomorrow for them. What voltage and are there anything else I should be looking at and can a golf battery be reconditioned like a car battery, desulphation and or new acid?
I can get these for $25 each which I think is a bargain.
I believe I recall that the larger deep cycle batteries works best. Give me your advice on these.
Thanks
-rg
PS Matt I got the stuff today.
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clueless View Post
I have an opportunity to buy 2 golf cart 12 volt batteries that are not any "good"?
I haven't put a meter on them yet and ifI buy them it will have to be today 'cause the recyler is coming tomorrow for them. What voltage and are there anything else I should be looking at and can a golf battery be reconditioned like a car battery, desulphation and or new acid?
I can get these for $25 each which I think is a bargain.
I believe I recall that the larger deep cycle batteries works best. Give me your advice on these.
Thanks
-rg
PS Matt I got the stuff today.
I would buy them on the spot. They're the best batteries you can have. Beside being deep cycle (they can be safely discharged down to 10.5V) they are never abused like an automotive starting batt's, when being raped in the winter to start the car. They can be sulfated but this is a minor inconvenience
Two batteries like that will outperform 10 starting batteries bank.
Yes, they can be reconditioned just like any acid battery but better.

Cheers
Vtech
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  #712  
Old 04-09-2012, 10:12 PM
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SOme new stuff

DavidsSetup3.AVI - YouTube

This is movie of setup. I will post a link to the switch test as soon as it gets uploaded.

@Clueless buy the golf cart batts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Don't forget, it could take as much as 20 minutes before the motor starts up depending on the shape your battery is in, and the LONGER it takes, the better the "bad" battery is for these experiments.

Dave
@All I had a stroke of something today the goal is not to let the bad battery get fixed right? Use 2-3 dead batteries in series depending on whether or your primaries are 12 or 24 volt.
May take a couple of hours to get started. Be patient.

I'll post that link as soon as its done.

Matt
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  #713  
Old 04-09-2012, 10:55 PM
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Update on my setup

Thanks Matt

I left my bigger setup alone until new motor arrives and went back to small setup. Instead of two 6V in series as 1&2 I just used 12V power wheel battery and 6V 5Ah SLAB sitting below 4V. I used the same RC motor as before (in my first setup). Motor didn't want to start even after 30min but I could see the spikes with my scope across the motor. I don't know why but I put a coil in series with motor (between the motor and + of 12V battery). I had a spool of thick wire salvaged from MOT. At first I used without the core but later fitted with 2 pcs of hollow ferrite cores. I did notice spikes across the motor getting near 8V p-p. I also tried various capacitors in parallel and their effect on the spikes. The highest were with couple hundreds nF range. However, I didn't notice clear effect in potential over the batteries after motor started running so it's is probably not important.
12V battery was at 12.56 and batt 3 at 3.56V before the switch was turned on.
After throwing switch they were 12.52V and 10.57V and within 15min motor started. Since it did that I recorded 12.43V and 8.67V respectively.
After an hour running - 12.40V and 8.80V and motor stopped. (switch remained ON all the time).
Batteries recovered to - 12.55V and 12.38V. Within 5min motor restarted, ran for 30min and stopped again.
Batteries recovered to - 12.64V and 6.67V. System restarted on its own and ran for 15 min. Since it didn't restart again within 30 min I decided to shot it off.
After an hour batteries are - 12.73V and 6.48V.

Cheers
Vtech
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  #714  
Old 04-09-2012, 11:24 PM
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Here is the switch test

DavidsSetup4 - YouTube

Enjoy
Matt
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  #715  
Old 04-09-2012, 11:38 PM
clueless clueless is offline
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Guys your Enthausism must have rubbed off

My wife is in a wheelchair and I take her shopping ( women need to shop) (guys buy) but by the time I got back to the battery place they were closing but did indicate if I came before noon those batteries will still be available.
Here is the interesting part, I had talked with the owner of the battery center when I went earlier in the day about the 3BGS and he wants to be kept informed. From his response I believe he will hold two of the four batteries until I get paid next month.
I am going in the morning early and buy two. Hopefully he will hold the other two until next month.
It will probably take two days to desuphlate both batteries and a good friend of mine who is both a electrician and electronics guy is coming up on Friday to help me with some home repair stuff and he has agreed to help me wire Matt's setup.
In the meantime I will build a platform for the motor(s). I must tell you that patience is not a virtue of mine but I love the encouragement from everyone here. I'd just like to take what I can scrape together and get things moving but in this case I will wait until my ducks are lined up.
This setup deserves the best I can give.
-Robert
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  #716  
Old 04-10-2012, 12:06 AM
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blackchisel97 blackchisel97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
Here is the switch test

DavidsSetup4 - YouTube

Enjoy
Matt
Looks good! Thank you Matt

You should be all set to go Robert

Vtech
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  #717  
Old 04-10-2012, 12:47 AM
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Turion Turion is online now
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blackchisel97,
That's exactly the behavior my original setup had. If you look at my very first post, I talk about my motor stopping and starting all on its own.

Matt,
I agree with you about the load on the motor. I have NEVER been able to get the system into the zone without a load of SOME KIND on the motor, and I have no idea why. LOL

Also, I have always feel that the motor is putting out power in two directions....CEMF that goes back to the primary batteries and generated current that goes forward to the dead battery. I know I keep saying this, but it is the way I have always looked at this thing operating. And I'm probably wrong, but I've seen things that led me to think that way.

I really, REALLY appreciate the time and effort you have put into this Matt. I know you are a busy man, and it's awesome not just that you're working on it, but that you are taking the time to share results with all of us.

I pick up the last of my parts tomorrow for my setup, and then I will be doing some more testing of my own. Luther sent me two motors and I just HAD to incorporate them into my setup. SO I will have three different setups to play with.

Dave
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  #718  
Old 04-10-2012, 01:28 AM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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More!!!!



This setup is holding the charge in the primaries while running. It also running an extra 10-15 watt load via the inverter.

The resistor in the schematic is 1 oh 100 watt.

If you got the stuff try it and maybe look for some combos.

Cheers
Matt
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  #719  
Old 04-10-2012, 01:41 AM
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citfta citfta is online now
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Hi guys,

I have finally gotten some time to work on this again. I have gotten a mosfet switching circuit to work on this. I have the motor connected the same as we have been doing and the mosfets connected across batt 3 to vary the current through the motor. It works very well with my little radio shack motor. It also will control my scooter motor although it will get pretty warm depending on the duty cycle. I have attached a schematic of the mosfet circuit. Thanks to Vissie for allowing me to modify his circuit and share it with the rest of you.

While I was working on this I had a scope connected to my 2 good batts to look at the spikes coming back to them. I discovered something that seems pretty strange. I only had the motor connected with the mosfet circuit as a load on batt 3. I have a switch in line between the motor and batt 1 positive. When I turn that switch off I still get spikes back to the good batts until the motor comes to a stop. There shouldn't be any way for the spikes to get back to the batts because the circuit is open. I checked this several times and they were always there until the motor stopped. I am using shielded scope leads so I don't think they were picking up the spikes and especially since the ground lead was still connected to - connection on the battery. Strange?

Carroll
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Last edited by citfta; 10-06-2015 at 09:14 PM.
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  #720  
Old 04-10-2012, 01:51 AM
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citfta citfta is online now
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Hey Matt,

I guess you and I were posting at the same time. I really liked the videos and now your latest circuit looks very interesting. If I can find some more dead batteries I plan to give it a try.

Thanks for sharing,
Carroll
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