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  #31  
Old 02-22-2012, 05:44 AM
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I second that comment about John B. Without the stuff he has done we would be nowhere. I was lucky enough to go to the first conference and it was incredible, not just because of the material presented, but because of the chance to meet some of the folks I only knew from phone calls or postings on the forums. A once in a lifetime opportunity.

If you are building this simple setup, remember you have to have some load on the motor. If it is't working a little it doesn't seem to do what it needs to.
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  #32  
Old 02-22-2012, 09:07 PM
clueless clueless is offline
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Turion or anybody else who has experimented

with this, have you considered matching the 3rd battery to the motor? Does that 3rd "bad" battery act as a capacitor? If it does would the motor capacitance be a factor?
This set up fascinates me for several reasons. It doesn't cost an arm and leg to replicate, it seems simple enough and has just a few variables. The other thing that stands out is from the testimony this system does real work. Something we can use to make something move is real work.
Has anybody tried smaller batteries like 6 volt lantern batteries or "D"/"C" batteries non rechargable?
Thanks again for the information.
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:19 PM
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I have only been able to get it to work with lead acid batteries. You're welcome to try something else, and it would be good to eliminate other types of batteries as possibilities, because that would give us even MORE information.

If you read what we've been saying, you MUST match the load on battery three to the load on the motor. You do this by putting a load on the motor and then adding small loads to battery three and waiting. The second you add a load to battery three, the motor will speed up. If you wait a few minutes it will speed up AGAIN if the load is matched. If not, keep adding or subtracting loads until you get a match.
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  #34  
Old 02-22-2012, 09:43 PM
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Thanks Turion for that reply

What I was asking is if the size of the motor and the 3rd battery size has any influence on the operation of the unit.
I was wondering if the 3rd battery was function in some manner like a capacitor.
Just curious what the secret to battery 3 is.
I may try this with a smaller setup as I don't have room for a larger one.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
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I have only been able to get it to work with lead acid batteries. You're welcome to try something else, and it would be good to eliminate other types of batteries as possibilities, because that would give us even MORE information.

If you read what we've been saying, you MUST match the load on battery three to the load on the motor. You do this by putting a load on the motor and then adding small loads to battery three and waiting. The second you add a load to battery three, the motor will speed up. If you wait a few minutes it will speed up AGAIN if the load is matched. If not, keep adding or subtracting loads until you get a match.
Hi David,

Waiting for the motor to speed up a second time is something I haven't tried yet... Usually, once it has sped up, the voltage has dropped either below or to around the 10-Volt range so I've been adjusting the load on the motor to bring the voltage on battery 3 back up into range needed to support the inverter...

So this will be the next thing I do with this system and I'll switch to lighter loads to see if I can get my system to replicate this behavior. Thanks for mentioning that again.

cheers,

Luther
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  #36  
Old 02-22-2012, 10:59 PM
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clueless,

I honestly can't answer your question, since I haven't experimented with different battery sizes or motor sizes. I know what size I had that worked originally, and have been trying to replicate that setup as closely as possible to try and get the magic to happen again. I DO know that the first day we had a VERY small motor we were using, and switched to the larger motor the second day, assuming bigger is better. Give it a shot with the mailer version. What have you got to lose IF you already have the stuff on hand. That's the best part about this setup, it's actually rather inexpensive to build if you have the parts lying around like most folks who have been actually experimenting with free energy research seem to have.
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  #37  
Old 02-23-2012, 12:20 AM
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Hi folks, I have a dead car battery, though it didn't work well because the plates, etc. are bulging the sides of the battery out.
I also have a 6 volt 4.5AH SLA that I knew was very dead and sulphated, so i used that as a third battery and used 24 volts, 2-12 volt 7Ah SLA for input.
Using a small 12 volt motor splitting the positives, it gradually started rotating while 6 volt battery is around 16 volts and if i put finger load on shaft it drops to around 10 volts.
Another thing, the motor periodically stops for awhile while 3rd battery voltage rises and then for no apparent reason, it will start rotating again.
And when i put a car tail light bulb on 3rd battery as load, the motor rotates much faster, though i do see the input batteries 1 and 2 dropping in voltage, though they do recover fairly well, not sure what to make of it so far.
peace love light
tyson
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:28 AM
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Tyson,
Glad you're giving this a shot. Hope you see what we're seeing, in that there is a period here where we're getting some extra energy, until the plates in the bad battery start to absorb the power. Then you begin to lose the potential difference and it falls off. In a totally sulfated battery you can get quite a nice run. The question is, how do we achieve the EXACT same thing without a "bad battery" What do we put in its place to mimic its behavior?
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  #39  
Old 02-23-2012, 11:16 AM
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SkyWatcher

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Hi folks, I have a dead car battery, though it didn't work well because the plates, etc. are bulging the sides of the battery out.
I also have a 6 volt 4.5AH SLA that I knew was very dead and sulphated, so i used that as a third battery and used 24 volts, 2-12 volt 7Ah SLA for input.
Using a small 12 volt motor splitting the positives, it gradually started rotating while 6 volt battery is around 16 volts and if i put finger load on shaft it drops to around 10 volts.
Another thing, the motor periodically stops for awhile while 3rd battery voltage rises and then for no apparent reason, it will start rotating again.
And when i put a car tail light bulb on 3rd battery as load, the motor rotates much faster, though i do see the input batteries 1 and 2 dropping in voltage, though they do recover fairly well, not sure what to make of it so far.
peace love light
tyson
Thanks for trying a 6v for battery three. I was wondering if this would work
myself, but do not have a six volt battery on hand that I could try.

George
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  #40  
Old 02-23-2012, 04:00 PM
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Looks like a company in Africa has this all figured out. I would pay VERY close attention to what they market and snap one up, because I KNOW this tech really works. It appears they have solved the issue of using a bad battery in the third position, using two batteries in parallel, which are then switched to a series connection while the two primary batteries are now put into a parallel configuration. A Tesla switch like Matt Jones has been working on with the addition of the motor in the circuit to generate power.

South African Fuel-Free Generator Preparing for Market
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  #41  
Old 02-23-2012, 04:56 PM
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I saw this on the Tesla Switch thread. It does look very similar. Maybe they
came up with a circuit to mimic the third battery. Would be nice if it made to
market without being suppressed.


George
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:28 PM
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George,
If they can figure it out, we can figure it out. I've got three different versions of Matt's Tesla switch up and running, and all the parts to build his BIG one. My transformer is even wound. So I'll be playing around to see what I can come up with.

People need to put together the simple little three battery setup with the motor and play with it so we are all on common ground as we talk about this thing, and then we'll see where we can take it by incorporating the necessary switching. Add that fourth battery in parallel to battery three, and we have what they have, except for the switching. We just need some folks to get to work!
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  #43  
Old 02-23-2012, 08:34 PM
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They use 24V batteries on both sides. No tesla switch configiration.
The system was comprised of a series-wound, brushed, DC motor (slightly modified) powered by one bank of two 12-Volt batteries (102 Ah) wired in series for a 24-Volt output. The company says the back-EMF is harvested into a second, identical battery bank, which is also wired in series. These two banks are periodically cycled, trading places in the circuit, and the net charge stays essentially the same, across both banks. The optimized cycling of power and storing of the back-EMF are all controlled by a proprietary circuit board and software developed by the inventor. The motor shaft is connected directly to the shaft of the AC generator, which spins at 3,000 rpm to produce 5 kW of power at 50 Hz, 220-V.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:37 PM
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Thanks nvisser

Thanks nvisser for the extra information. That is what I was beginning to think about what is going on here (well maybe not in the same way) the motor is an important component to what is happening here. Not just battery 3.

I just finished an over an hour run with the same battery 3. It still works, turns out I had a loose connection on battery 2. I burnt out a taillight bulb when I put to much load on the motor. This time I ran a 75 watt inverter with a light bulb. Also tried exact same motor as load and it worked. I could have run things longer but quit because I was too tired.

Just had another thought, The circuit and the software on the South African
device could be similar to Matthew Jones process, or if not maybe the software could be tweaked to work. Even though I do not Know that much about Matt's system, I know you have to program it.

George
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:48 PM
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They use 24V batteries on both sides. No tesla switch configiration.
The system was comprised of a series-wound, brushed, DC motor (slightly modified) powered by one bank of two 12-Volt batteries (102 Ah) wired in series for a 24-Volt output. The company says the back-EMF is harvested into a second, identical battery bank, which is also wired in series. These two banks are periodically cycled, trading places in the circuit, and the net charge stays essentially the same, across both banks. The optimized cycling of power and storing of the back-EMF are all controlled by a proprietary circuit board and software developed by the inventor. The motor shaft is connected directly to the shaft of the AC generator, which spins at 3,000 rpm to produce 5 kW of power at 50 Hz, 220-V.
" No tesla switch configuation, (DC motor slightly modified) " Sounds like it could be more like a Lockridge device, but with the electronic/software system as opposed to mechanical.

George
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:10 PM
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The motor is absolutely essential to this setup. It pulses the power through from the 24 volts to the 12 volt. A load like a light bulb in place of the motor will also allow battery three to charge, but look what happens to batteries one and two when you use a load that does not pulse. Plus, in my opinion, the motor is acting as a generator, when its coil collapses, sending energy forward into the system.

George, take note of how long it takes batteries one and two to recover from that long a run. It could be quite a while, if they ever do. By the way, now that you have seen it run for an hour with a load (what kind of light bulb was it on your 75 watt inverter?) do you see that you've gotten more energy out of the system than your batteries have put in? Did they completely recover? We need folks like you to weigh in on whether this thing really works or not so that we can get some people building it and figure out how to replace battery three with something easier to replicate.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:26 AM
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Dave

Dave, after 12 hours of rest, battery 1 is back to full charge, battery 2 has a slight loss. I only used a 2.5 watt led bulb from Wal Mart. I had also tried to use a Wal Mart 20 watt inverter, but it did not want to stay working as the 75 watt did. I also tried a 40 watt incandescent bulb, it would stay on continuously only if a very heavy load was applied to the motor. Battery 1 is a new one, battery 2 is an old one, I do have two other new garden batteries that could be used for battery 2.


George
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:19 AM
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Can ask a couple of questions

Can you post a schematic?

Are you testing the primary batteries for loss of charge, if so how?

How do you think it is working?

Just trying to get my head round it
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:06 PM
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Here is what I THINK. The difference in potential between the 24 volt stack and the 12 volt stack causes current to move through the motor. The motor acts as a generator and adds power to the system which pulses the 12 volt battery. These sharp pulses induce SOMETHING in this battery. The power we are able to pull off battery three (until the sulfated plates begin to absorb power and then it diminishes to nothing) is considerable, with little or no effect on batteries one and two that they cannot recover from. The more sulfated the battery in the third position, the less batteries one and two are affected. Get a really sulfated battery, like my original, and you actually get a back feed into those two batteries.

How did we test that batteries one and two had recovered? First, with a meter. But it could be just a surface charge, so you have to isolate the battery and connect it to a load to make sure that you have an accurate reading.

You have to run loads for short periods of time because you will overcome the sulfation if your run is too long, and that's when you lose charge out of the two primary batteries. But I have run loads over and over for weeks on end, allowing my batteries to recover, and my amp hours of use total more than several batteries could provide. This is why we are running loads off an inverter through a kilowatt meter, so we KNOW how much power we are getting, and since we KNOW what three FULL batteries would hold, we have a reasonable idea of how successful we are.

The goal here is to replace battery three with something that doesn't require sulfation to work. Possibly a cap to provide the potential difference and a resistor to mimic the sulfation. What might be best is to pulse the system with a connection to a third battery, so that the potential difference is SEEN, and the current moves through the motor, but the connection is terminated before there can be movement of ions in the third battery that allow it to charge. In that case you could use ANY battery in the third position. We're hoping to get enough folks working on this that we can figure it out.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:28 PM
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The underlined part stumps me.

Maybe somebody can explain why not use another motor on the "other side" and eliminate switching the batteries. Seems to me that will increase the output too.
Admittedly I am over my head and there is probably a logical reason why you can't use two motors with two battery banks and just stick with the one motor.

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Originally Posted by nvisser View Post
They use 24V batteries on both sides. No tesla switch configiration.
The system was comprised of a series-wound, brushed, DC motor (slightly modified) powered by one bank of two 12-Volt batteries (102 Ah) wired in series for a 24-Volt output. The company says the back-EMF is harvested into a second, identical battery bank, which is also wired in series. These two banks are periodically cycled, trading places in the circuit, and the net charge stays essentially the same, across both banks. The optimized cycling of power and storing of the back-EMF are all controlled by a proprietary circuit board and software developed by the inventor. The motor shaft is connected directly to the shaft of the AC generator, which spins at 3,000 rpm to produce 5 kW of power at 50 Hz, 220-V.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:28 PM
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:36 PM
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Look at it this way. When you put two batteries in series through a load (like a light bulb) to a third battery that is discharged, the current moves like water to equalize between the higher and the lower. The light lights, and you get minimal loses of current (in the form of heat). It's like an old mill set up on a river. As the water flows past it turns the mill wheel and grinds the corn. The "work" the water does as it moves is free, just like the current moving from higher to lower through the motor is free.

Now in a motor, the voltage goes in and we know it would flow out the same way, (virtually) unused (except for heat losses), to be used somewhere else downstream. PLUS there is also the energy that is produced by the sudden collapse of the coil in the motor. This second (generated) current is sent into the windings of the motor to dissipate and die so that it doesn't fight against the incoming current.

Now Dr. Lindemann has talked about using a second set of brushes in a modified motor to collect that current and funnel it out of the motor Wouldn't a battery waiting to be charged provide an easier route for the flow of current than into windings that dead end and back up the flow? Once it is full, you charge a second battery that had been providing current for a while. Now you have two full batteries and your two initial batteries are now empty and ready to swap places. In all probability this is what they are doing. You also get the power of the work done by the motor pretty much for "free". In this case it is hooked to a generator which also produces power.

Of course, this is only a guess, but it is based on what I have seen and what I know about how motors work after messing with them for the last four years. There are others out there who know a heck of a lot more than I do about this. And even THIS explanation doesn't take into account what happens to that discharged battery when you hit it with those pulses from a DC motor, because whatever THAT is, it's also an addition. So maybe their off the shelf DC motor is "slightly modified" simply by adding a second set of brushes

This MAY be much simpler than what we imagine. We are seeing power from our setup, which is just as simple and possibly nearly the same. So get to work people! LOL

Dave
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:37 PM
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clueless

I can not comment on that device, but I was thinking of trying two motors
connected where only one is now with the three battery setup, to see what
will happen.

@ Dave, I think I remember seeing a comment at OU that this system is what
Magnicoaster had there. You can google Magnicoaster and see that he is
trying to sell his devices. But from what I can tell he never perfected it
either. He can give a short demonstration, and it looks like it works. But
it does not look like it will work continuously. Any thoughts ?


George
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:21 PM
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I don't know anything about Magnicoaster, so I don't know.

Do you mean two motors connected in parallel into the system where there was one? Interesting idea. Doubles the load, and then you have to balance that with a load on battery three. Maybe running two motors will be ENOUGH load without putting a load on the motors. Worth a shot. Let us know what happens.
Dave
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:31 AM
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In this setup, I can see how it will desulphate in the period that the motor wont run by the fact it is working as a tank circuit. This makes sense.

During the running period it makes sense that the current is flowing through the motor causing the motor to have torque with the only loss being the ohmic loss in the motor as the current that has passed through is collected in the second battery. This is in its self proof that running a motor does not consume power other than that consumed in ohmic resistance. I have said this before on many threads and as yet no one has challenged it.

Adding loads to the third battery just reduces the impedance seen by the primaries and motor allowing the motor to run faster. These loads will consume power based on their ohmic resistance. All this makes sense and it is an efficient way to run a motor. The spikes generated by the running motor will also desulphate the third battery but as I see it we are still consuming the same power out of the two supply batteries and they should be getting depleted.

Yes, lead acid batteries have the ability to recover somewhat from short heavy load drains but only as much power can be drawn as is seen when the battery is drained at C20. While they might appear fully charged they should in fact not be. If the batteries are in fact keeping their charge, I am baffled

Does anyone agree, disagree or have another explanation?

I like what you are doing as it proves that a motor does not consume power to make it run. If there is no loss or even a reduced loss from the primaries this needs to be documented as something else must be going on.

Of course the power produced by the motor can be used to power a generator that can feed power back into the circuit and when you do this you will most probably find that there is more energy in the combined output of the generator and that going into the charged battery than what is being drained from the source. It should be possible to charge three batteries in parallel this way while depleting two.

If the motor used was of my design it may be possible to charge many more as we will be having an additional pulse effect charging the batteries plus overall higher efficiency.

I fully believe you have an overunity circuit when a generator is fitted but the source batteries must go down.

To see the overunity you need a high efficiency motor and a high efficiency generator, that is both need to be in excess of 70% efficiency. As the efficiency of the motor and generators go up the overunity will go up.

To make it self running, I would feed the output of the generator to the output battery and use an inverter to feed this back to the source. Once the system is running all the batteries could be replaced with capacitors.

Note the similarity with one of my Lockridge circuits but this would require a special motor. Circuit Simulator Applet
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Old 02-25-2012, 06:26 AM
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mbrownn,

We have a couple different ideas for motors to use with this. The first is the modified DC motor of Dr. Lindemann's design. That is a rewound motor with two sets of brushes. One set provides the current to run the motor and the second collects the collapse of the coil and sends it back out.

The second would be a motor with something to collect the CEMF rather than send it into the windings to die.

But if you have a motor you want to try have at it. If there is a modification you want us to try, let me know what it is, and we'll try to make that happen.

Now, as to the current setup. What if, because of the fact that the motor is run between two positives, and because of the pulsing that I KNOW is affecting somehow the magnetic field of battery three, something is happening to either the supplied current, or the current that comes from the collapse of the coil? Just an idea.
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Old 02-25-2012, 06:57 AM
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mbrownn,

We have a couple different ideas for motors to use with this. The first is the modified DC motor of Dr. Lindemann's design. That is a rewound motor with two sets of brushes. One set provides the current to run the motor and the second collects the collapse of the coil and sends it back out.

The second would be a motor with something to collect the CEMF rather than send it into the windings to die.

But if you have a motor you want to try have at it. If there is a modification you want us to try, let me know what it is, and we'll try to make that happen.

Now, as to the current setup. What if, because of the fact that the motor is run between two positives, and because of the pulsing that I KNOW is affecting somehow the magnetic field of battery three, something is happening to either the supplied current, or the current that comes from the collapse of the coil? Just an idea.
Question...

Has this been tried on a "Brushless Motor" yet?

Regards
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Old 02-25-2012, 07:16 AM
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erfinder

Neight tried brushless PC fans.


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I am glad you posted this! I completely forgot I have a few 12DC PC fans. They are brushless, but it gave me something to try tonight.
The bad battery that I am using wouldn't take any thing more than 3.5V on my SSG, and as soon as I connected any load at all to it, even a joule thief, it would drop down to 1.5V or less, and die in a hurry.
when it is on the SSG charging, it would read 11-12V charge.

I hooked everything up as per Turion's first post (fan connected to pos of battery 1 and 3, neg of 1 connected to pos of 2, and neg of 2 connected to neg of 3) and the fan started right away, which I understand may not be a good thing, but oddly enough the bad battery (bat 3) is reading 17V and climbing at the moment when it is under load. when I remove the fan, I now get 4V and dropping, instead of the 3.5V I had seen on it previously as a high mark. Not sure what to make of it yet, but I am looking to connect a load to bat 3 and see what happens next
The fan is running, though no where near full power yet, and it has some LED's in it, which will flash off every few minutes. the fan doesn't seem to change speed when it happens, though it is hard to tell. Not sure what that means either. I will leave the test running for a while, monitor all three bat voltages, and post what happens.
Thanks for making that post FRC, you got me started at least!

N8

I have connected a light bulb I pulled out of a drill press that stopped working to bat 3, to see what happens. With the bulb connected, The voltage on bat 3 drops to 14.5V and sort of stabilizes, though it does still show it climbing slowly. Batteries 1 and 2 don't seem to notice the extra load at all, and in fact, bat 1 gained a few mV after the bulb was connected. I do not get much light at all out of the bulb mind you, but it does glow ever so slightly...
Again, not sure if any of this even means anything, but I am trying to document it, in case it is helpful in any way
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Old 02-25-2012, 07:21 AM
mbrownn mbrownn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
mbrownn,

If there is a modification you want us to try, let me know what it is, and we'll try to make that happen.
A universal motor with a wave wound armature fitted with extra brushes. I don't know where to get such an armature from so its a winding contest again. Peters windings in the lockridge thread are basically wave wound.
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Old 02-25-2012, 07:47 AM
erfinder erfinder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FRC View Post
Neight tried brushless PC fans.

Anyone tried this "cap discharge test" from the site below? I think it might be related to what you all are doing...

Capacitive Discharge Motor and other free energy files - J Snell

I tried test in the attached image.
Regards
Attached Images
File Type: gif cap discharge test.gif (4.1 KB, 174 views)
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Last edited by erfinder; 02-25-2012 at 07:49 AM.
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