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Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

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  #481 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 01:19 AM
citfta citfta is offline
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Yes it works!

I had a few minutes last night to try Matt's circuit. I didn't have a 100 ohm 1/2 watt resistor so I decided to try a pot instead. With a pot in place of the 100 ohm resistor you now have a speed control for the motor. The only problem with that is if you are not real careful tuning you will let the magic smoke out of your transistor. I let it out of 2 of them last night. When I have some more time I will put together a mosfet circuit as I agree I think that will work fine. I was just playing around last night. So it looks like Matt has done it again. Congratulations Matt!

I think we could also use a control circuit like a Pic or even a 555 circuit to control the transistor and maybe get some more interesting effects. With the Pic or any of the other small microprocessors we could maybe make the tuning automatic.

Carroll
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  #482 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 02:25 AM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Originally Posted by citfta View Post
I had a few minutes last night to try Matt's circuit. I didn't have a 100 ohm 1/2 watt resistor so I decided to try a pot instead. With a pot in place of the 100 ohm resistor you now have a speed control for the motor. The only problem with that is if you are not real careful tuning you will let the magic smoke out of your transistor. I let it out of 2 of them last night. When I have some more time I will put together a mosfet circuit as I agree I think that will work fine. I was just playing around last night. So it looks like Matt has done it again. Congratulations Matt!

I think we could also use a control circuit like a Pic or even a 555 circuit to control the transistor and maybe get some more interesting effects. With the Pic or any of the other small microprocessors we could maybe make the tuning automatic.

Carroll
Thanks Carroll

I do have a little bad news to report. Under a 5 hour test which was started in the video I lost about .15 of a volt out of both batteries.
The resistors were getting hot so I think that is were it went. Not a loss from the motor. And not having the switch in place caused this.

We might could get around this....

I do have an idea. Maybe NOT use the resistor and use 2 diodes one to collect the ground and one to collect the positive. Both the diodes will deposit into the correct pole of the battery. You do not want to use a Ultrafast but rather a slugish diode with a high voltage drop, like 1n5408 or somthing along that line.
Follow me?
The resistance of the diode will act the same as the resistor but the polarity will be routed directly to the correct pole of the battery.
This may or may not work but I think its worth a try.

The switch is counter acting the BEMF and forcing it back to the source. If you follow the curve of the motor on the scope you can see that the negative leg of the wave form gets cut off. The left over power is then in serial with the source batteries and is force back through the coil of the motor so it can deposit on the opposite plate in the battery.
This is why you have little to no heat in the resistors when you use the switch. But the diodes may allow the same interaction at a faster rate but we have to see.

Anyway I am glad to see people working towerds the goal, but you have to make sure you cover your P's&Q's. Measure everything, detail everything, get as much info on your setup as possible and start documenting it in formatted way, or else alot of us are just going to be going over the same ground. That not needed in alot of cases other than to prove out a setup after that its time to move on to the next steps.

Cheers
Matt
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  #483 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 02:49 AM
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Matt,
If you think the absence of the switch caused the loss in voltage won't replacing the switch with one that won't fry solve the problem if we can do that? I'll give mine a shot tomorrow with the diodes and see what happens. Those I have boxes of. And I'll also try the Mosfett switch on a duplicate motor to see what happens with that combined with diodes. It'll give a basis of comparison for a long run, say five hours with each setup. I have enough batteries to run them both at the same time, although one of my bad batteries is probably a better "Bad" battery than the other, so after recharging my primaries on a conventional charger and letting them rest for a couple hours, I'll switch bad batteries and compare results. That will take the whole day.

At least I won't be sitting around waiting for the big resistors to arrive in the mail and can get on with testing.

Dave
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  #484 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 03:39 AM
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Dave have you been doing any runs with your coiler setup. Seems like you were
saying you were waiting to get the welding done and then you were going to
be experimenting. I had been holding off trying different things because I wanted to get the motor/generator setup working before doing more. But then
I tried the 2BGS in the meantime. Now I might be leaving tomorrow or Thursday
at the latest, so don't know when I will try something again.

George
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  #485 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 04:00 AM
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Still Working On It

Great Work, Matt, and guys!!

I've been working on this but haven't made any post lately. I'll try the new schematic soon.

Here is a suggestion. You can find heavy diodes in car/truck alternators. Maybe your local garage has some alternators in their scrap heap.

Also, if you need some high watt low ohm resistors, put several of the high watt low ohm ones in parallel. The resulting resistance goes down and the watt rating goes up. For example, I needed to be able to do a one ohm check to see what my current draw was in the circuit. I put 2 @ 2 ohm resistors that were rated for 10 watts each together in parallel, I got 1 ohm and 20 watts!!

Keep up the good work!!
Tony
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  #486 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 04:12 AM
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FRC,
I have been doing some runs with my original motor (110 volt DC) as well as two very small DC motors I bought a while back. The problem with the two small motors is I have nothing to use as a load, and I know from experience that you need at least a little load on the motor to try and balance the system. The best I have EVER gotten has been a six hour run on my large motor where I had it balanced perfectly and had no draw down on my two primaries.

I have all my welding done, and am in the process of winding coils for my energizer, which is going to take a week or two. But I have pretty much put it aside to concentrate on getting a MOTOR working. My priority now is getting this setup to run as Matt had done, and as David P has done with the large resistors or possibly the diodes and Mosfetts as switches. I have the large diodes on order and that is the only thing I don't have right now.

I picked up four 24 volt Razor scooter motors today, and should be able to salvage two or three of them by the time I clean them up, tear them apart, and put them back together. Then I will have several setups running at the same time with the same motor and the only variable will be the bad battery and whatever else I do to the setup to test out. Luther is also sending me a couple 12 volt motors, so I will have no shortage of test setups. I wish they were all the same, but then having a variety of different kinds of motors will come in handy when we think we have something and I can plug six or seven different kinds of motors into the system and see how they function. I am pretty committed to this thing. I have spent the last four years of my life messing with it on and off, getting discouraged and putting it on the shelf, then dragging it back out when I got some hair brained idea.

I also have the pulse motor I rewound for the Peter Lindemann Lockridge thread, and have thought about using it, since it really is designed to be a pulse motor. The one I am considering only has one set of brushes, and it probably needs to have an external commutator to run with this setup, but it is lying around too. I also have a 12 volt fan with a motor and a car vacuum that runs on 12 volts, so I am in motor heaven.

I know Matt rewound one of the Razor motors for Peter's thread too, so maybe he will try that one with this.

One of the things I really want to convince myself of is that running that 110 volt motor on high speed with a balanced load hooked up to my energizer draws down my primaries. Will it or won't it. I have only run it on two batteries, and I have 9 that are the same that I could use, plus a bunch of others that are just random 12 volt car batteries. I need to run those kinds of tests and record the data and share it, so for th next couple weeks I intend to be a data producing machine.

We'll miss you while you're gone. It was good having another pair of hands working on the bench and reporting in. Get yourself back here as soon as you can. We may have it all figured out by then.

Dave

Last edited by Turion : 03-28-2012 at 04:14 AM.
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  #487 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 05:11 AM
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Thanks Dave, was not expecting that much of a reply. You did answer something that had puzzled me foe a while though, and that is why you had not done that much with the 3BGS in the last four years.

I will probably be gone for a month at the least. I will still try to check in with
my iphone. I do not have it hooked up and can only use it with WiFY, I have
another cell I use for a phone. I will be staying in a camper van and do not
have an internet connection there. I still might try working on this in the van,
but space is limited.

Now that things have started to advance, thanks to Matt and many others I do not want to miss a beat. So I will try to stay involved as much as possible. Also I will pick up those couplers that I need for my motors and try them out. So I will not be completely away from this. It is just too important to ignore this now when things are rapidly advancing like they are.

George
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  #488 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 06:04 AM
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FRC,
I went through a really rough patch with this where everybody was telling me that it didn't work and I was seeing things and I didn't know what I was talking about. And even though I KNEW what I had seen, when enough people tell you it can't be, you begin to believe it and doubt yourself. I can't believe I let that happen, but I did. I was a newbie to all this stuff, with very little actual electronics experience and I had "experts" telling me it couldn't work. I could wire a house, but that ain't the same thing. I also went through a move and a divorce and everything else at the same time, and this setup was definitely NOT a priority. So it was really awesome when Luther contacted me a while back and told me he believed in what I had been saying and that got me motivated again. And now a whole bunch of people have seen at least part of what I have seen, so that has done a lot to restore my confidence that there IS something here worth exploring. It has meant a lot to me to see you guys get excited about this and jump on board. I was afraid I was going to get shouted down again, and that hasn't happened, so it's all good! All I needed was for some other people to see the same thing I saw, and now some of you have. And that is just awesome.

Hey, and if you can't access the internet, just call one of us and we'll get you caught up! LOL

Dave
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  #489 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 06:12 AM
Joit Joit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertMunich View Post
the last developments sound really interesting.
I have tried two identical 12 to 18 Volt dremel tools. connected them very simply by putting a drill in one of the chucks and clamping the other chuck to it. I never could get more than 7 to 8 volts out of the one that ran as a generator. It lit up my car lamp though, so there must have been some current. what is the output Voltage you are getting on your generator side? Can you charge both primary batts at once?

I blame their bad ability to work as Generators it on the bad Ratio from Wire,
to thick Wires and to less Windings on the Winding from the Rotor.
Maybe someone want to put some Magnets on his Motor-Generator? It should at last a bit increase the Output.

There i do come to the Point to make an own Generator again, but then i can go further to build a complete new Unit. Right now i really think hard about it, to build an Adams Motor,
The Theory behind is, that he use one (pair) of Coils to drive it, another one to generate and catch the Spikes. Thats why i am not really happy with my tiny Motor too, because i think, its continuously connected at the Commutator too.
But he has a exact timing, where it fires the driving Coils, close at he Center, when the Magnets passing, but the Generator Coils should connect about 10-15? later. He use Coils what should have minimum 10 Ohms. Still a few Options, what i dont have with a industrial made Motor.
So he actually has a Time delay between Generating and Powering, what may is more clever to catch the Energy, but at last some could run the Motor without recharging the Run Batteries.
And at all, this Build here is a very practical Lesson how to work with Resistors.

Last edited by Joit : 03-28-2012 at 06:16 AM.
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  #490 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 08:07 AM
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Sanskara316 Sanskara316 is offline
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@FRC Takecare and have lot's of fun, hoping to see your comments and suggestions soon. We'll be waiting your return
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  #491 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 12:10 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Matt,
If you think the absence of the switch caused the loss in voltage won't replacing the switch with one that won't fry solve the problem if we can do that? I'll give mine a shot tomorrow with the diodes and see what happens. Those I have boxes of. And I'll also try the Mosfett switch on a duplicate motor to see what happens with that combined with diodes. It'll give a basis of comparison for a long run, say five hours with each setup.....
Dave
No doubt adding a switch in is what is needed, but the diode thing is easy so it can be tested quikly. Getting the Fet to drive off the signal coming out may not be as easy as you would think. After all you have to have 15-16 volt at the gate and ground to shut it off. I am not sure thats going to be a simple little task.
You can try and Carroll will probably get it right the first time so I may wate see what he has up his sleave.

Cheers
Matt
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  #492 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 01:14 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Notice To All

I noticed alot of you subscribing to my you tube account. I do not make any videos public there fore you will never get any updates out of a subscribtion on anything I do.

Sorry
Matt
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  #493 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 02:55 PM
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Matt and Carroll,
I know I am not the sharpest guy when it comes to electronics, so mostly I just hide and watch, but I know I have wired MJL's in parallel for other applications to handle a higher load. Is that worth trying here or is that another waste of time?
If it IS a waste of time, what are the specs of the transistor we need for this application? I have contacts at a LOT of places in San Jose. This is, after all, the Silicon Valley, and I made some calls this morning. I came up with two different places ( I have a friend that works at one of them, so I can get kind of a discount deal by going through him.) that will put together a transistor to spec, and one of them specializes in LOCATING transistors that meet your needs which are currently being manufactured. To have one made would cost from $8 to over $100. 00 each, but I'll outlay the cash for a couple to do the testing with, and we can go from there. NPN, PNP, JFET or MOSFET, it doesn't matter.

So....
Using the MJL as a guide

Collector-Emitter Voltage is 250 Vdc
Collector-Base Voltage is 400 Vdc
Emitter-Base Voltage is 5 Vdc (This should stay the same, right?)
Collector-Emitter Voltage 400 Vdc
Collector Current- Continuous 16 Adc
Peak 30 Adc
Base Current 5 Adc
Do either of you have a rough idea of what we would be looking for based on what you have seen? We can always try one and change our specs if it doesn't work. And if our specs are beyond what is possible, they will certainly let me know as well as discuss options with me.

Dave

Last edited by Turion : 03-28-2012 at 02:57 PM.
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  #494 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 03:06 PM
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Still Here

Might be leaving tonight. After reading Matt's and Carrol's posts I was thinking the exact same thing Dave. Something like a Darlington Pair with the MJL's. Also
of how to not push things to far so that you could still use Matt's original circuit
but maybe still draw some load off the good batteries.

gEORGE
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:09 PM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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No you don't to go through all that. If you wanna parrallel some up it will most likley work. I would use 47 ohm resistors with 2 or more, instead of the 100 watt.

Matt
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Old 03-28-2012, 05:44 PM
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All,
Speaking of drawing some load off the good batteries. I'm setting up a small setup with two 12 volt motors right now...one as motor-one as generator. I am wondering if the MJL would have fried when loads were put on the motor IF they had been balanced by loads on battery three as I have been doing. That is the FIRST thing I am going to try. What I am going to do is add loads to the motor until I burn out a transistor (on purpose) and then replace it, connecting an even greater load to the motor than the one that burned the transistor out, but prior to starting the system up, put a similar load on battery three. So they won't necessarily be balanced, but it might give me some indication as to whether that could be a successful solution or whether it really is going to be a matter of finding a different switching mechanism. I will post a video of what it takes to blow the transistor, and whether or not adding a load to battery three prevented an even larger load on the motor from blowing the second transistor. Does that sound like a reasonable test? The next step would be adding more loads to the motor until the second transistor blows, and then trying a third transistor with even greater loads on the motor plus more loads on battery three prior to starting up.

Dave
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  #497 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 06:13 PM
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Turion

Sounds like you are going to have a lot of transistors to play with. What about paralleling two or more transistors like Matt said might work ? Hope You have some left over to try this. If you can afford to waste a lot of transistors then this would be good research to try. Just hope you do not waste too much money on them.

George
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:31 PM
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I bought 25 of the MJL's a long time back, so I have a few to burn without feeling it too badly. I have it all wired with the two MJL's in parallel right now, and will fire it up as soon as I grab a sandwich and hook in the resistors Matt recommended. I only came upstairs to check what it was he suggested using, and thought I would drop in hare and make a sandwich while I read whatever was posted. If I have to, I'll yank some off of one of my monopoles. They've each got at least six.

I will let it run like that with some loads on the motor to see what it can do with some loads, and then balance the loads with loads on battery three and maybe pull one transistor out and see what happens.
Dave
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:05 PM
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Thanks Dave

I just came in from loading up the car. I am glad you are trying the parallel
setup first. Hope to see some good results.

George
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:48 PM
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Igbt

@Turion , Matt and others.

I have (4) GT50J102's sitting insulated aluminum heatsink. They are IGBT's, not sure if they might work, thing is I don't personally understand the implications of low saturation voltage (2.7V) on this circuit. VCE is 600V. 50A. They came out of a casino machine.

Available free to anyone here wishing to use them, as a trial, I'll even pay shipping. Only trying to help.

http://www.glyn.de/data/glyn/media/doc/GT50J102.pdf
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:52 PM
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I haven't been able to get it to run. The 47 ohm resistor got really hot, the voltage jumped to 24 on my meter, but the motor never started. I checked everything a couple times and all my wiring seems ok, as do my connections. So I pulled all the wires off and will rewire it from the beginning. Sometimes that's the only way I have found to fix a problem. I had a light on battery thee, as a load, and it wouldn't even come on until I flipped the switch, which is the way it should be. I'll keep messing with it'

Dave
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Old 03-28-2012, 09:12 PM
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Dave

Matt's may have worked with the circuit because of the size of the batteries
and the fact he was using a 24v motor. Maybe reduce resistance and see what happens.
I assume you are using a smaller battery for battery 3 than what Matt used.

George
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  #503 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2012, 09:52 PM
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Think I found the problem. My battery three has been doing weird stuff, and I forgot about it. I connected both transistors in parallel and it didn't work. So I tried one transistor and it didn't work. So I tried the basic original system and it still didn't work. I connected a car dome light across battery three and the motor did not come on. So I connected a car headlight across battery three and the motor did not come on. So I connected a SECOND car headlight across battery three and the motor DID come on. I think the metal filings I put in battery three are causing a condition that is worsening (or improving) the battery, depending on your point of view. Now it takes more load directly across the battery before there is a complete circuit in the system that allows the motor to start. Has anyone ever seen anything like that before? The load SHOULD bypass battery three completely, and now I need THREE loads to bypass battery three, and only ONE of them lights up.

At least I know WHY my setup did not work with the two transistors. I didn't have any loads on battery three. So I will have to hook everything up again and start over.

Here's the YouTube video:
Unusual Test 3 - YouTube

EDIT: While I was sitting here typing this and loading to YouTube, I heard my motor start up down in the basement. Apparently I left the "on" switch in the on position, only turning off the three lights, which caused the system to quit. Apparently it needed to set there quite a while before it would kick on by itself...a GOOD 15 minutes at least! My "bad" battery, which was at 0 volts when I started, and did not register any voltage the two or three times I checked, including immediately after I finished making the video and shut the system down, is now at 11.75 volts. I will let it rest and see what happens. So between the time I heard the motor start up and could walk downstairs to see what was going on, the motor went from 0 to 11.75 volts.

Last edited by Turion : 03-28-2012 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:50 PM
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FRC FRC is offline
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minoly

Yes the meters go crazy. I do not think I ever mentioned this before. It has
been posted here by others working on this. But I always forget to mention
that it happens to me also. Good to see you are trying this too.

George
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:07 PM
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Dave

The motors you are using in that last video look very similar to the motor I used in the 2BGS. The halogen would light up bright at first but then go to a very dim light also. But the motor would still run fast. So then I went to the computer fan for load so that the motor would run slower. You could try the 2BGS with that setup and see what happens.

George

Last edited by FRC : 03-28-2012 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:30 AM
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Turion Turion is online now
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At this point it's not my motors I'm worried about or concerned with, but the unusual behavior of the system because of battery number three. Why would it take three separate loads bypassing the battery (connecting directly across its terminals in essence bypasses it) to complete a circuit and get the motor to run? It makes no sense. And when left alone for 15 minutes, it starts on its own with NO load on battery three at all!! I want to get my head around this behavior of the third battery.

Dave
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:40 AM
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Dave

Dave is this still the bad battery with the iron fillings ? Do you have another bad battery you can try that was not modified in this way ? Sounds like the iron fillings have somehow created these anomalies in the bad battery. Or what else would account for it ?

George
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:43 AM
Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Maybe the battery is shorted out.

Check for continuity between the poles.

Matt
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Old 03-29-2012, 01:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
Maybe the battery is shorted out.

Check for continuity between the poles.

Matt
That would make sense. The fillings are floating around in the battery and intermittently shorting it out when they align with each other. At other times they are apart and the battery works.

George
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Old 03-29-2012, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
At this point it's not my motors I'm worried about or concerned with, but the unusual behavior of the system because of battery number three. Why would it take three separate loads bypassing the battery (connecting directly across its terminals in essence bypasses it) to complete a circuit and get the motor to run? It makes no sense. And when left alone for 15 minutes, it starts on its own with NO load on battery three at all!! I want to get my head around this behavior of the third battery.

Dave
Hmmm ... I'll take a wild guess at that one. Not based on hard physics or chemistry but with a little of both in mind I will say first we are dealing with very low voltages relatively speaking but dealing also with high current capabilities. So with low voltage we don't have a lot of quick or hard pushing but there is a mass of electrons available due to the amperage batteries like this have. So dead battery 3 is sitting there and probably has high internal resistance but still low enough that SOME current can flow. That massive current available at low pressure (voltage) will probably start agitating (not a full force kick) some ions in solution or in some way changing enough of the chemistry in it that you get an eventual cascade effect due to the large available current from your good batteries. Not really sure about any of this but it 'feels' like it fits what may be happening. Very high current like you can get from car batteries is also something I've been lead to believe can cause transmutation (which of course mainstream physics says is not possible). I've seen evidence that it is possible and because of the potential it has this info is suppressed.
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