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  #4861  
Old 07-20-2019, 03:43 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Nit pick

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Originally Posted by Turion View Post
bi,
You nit pick what you KNOW you can discredit, and ignore everything else that makes you look like a fool. Yes, I know a battery is not completely DEAD at 12.2, buy YOU know you should not discharge a battery below 12.2 because it is harmful to the battery. You always want to argue the little details so you can make yourself look like the expert. But it is the concept where you fall on your face.
If you can't get the details right, why would anyone believe you have the concepts correctly understood?

BTW, any discharge harms the battery. It is just a matter of degree. Many types of batteries can be used well below 40% SoC and deliver rated life cycles.

Later in that post, you say "It(the motor) won't run off the dead 12 volt battery." It most certainly would run off a battery at 40% SoC. Is that nit picking?

bi
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  #4862  
Old 07-20-2019, 05:54 PM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Nitpicking

Then run the motor on the battery until it WONT run and THEN try the experiment. That’s the whole POINT bi. You have to actually LOOK at things on the bench and quit depending on what YOU think you know. Because you DON’T. And YES, it is nitpicking. You know very WELL what the purpose of that experiment is and STILL you avoid the issue and focus on details where you can CONTINUE to play the expert. You try your best EVERY time to sidetrack the discussion.
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Last edited by Turion; 07-20-2019 at 05:57 PM.
  #4863  
Old 07-20-2019, 06:19 PM
NROC NROC is offline
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Bi

Hey Bi,

I don't know why you make me laugh so much lol. Nit picking Dave because he said 'is' instead of 'isn't' your so funny hahaha.

Look man, I'm sure your banned from this thread that's why the bistander thread was created. I'm not sure if your a paid troll to attack Dave or what.

These systems aren't that complicated, Dave and Matt have given away so much information on this forum to people freely. Just put the pieces together and dont give up if it doesn't work first time, it takes a while to 'feel out' these systems. All these OU devices all have the same things in common:

Biggish batteries, modulated voltage or current spikes for low impedance, regulators and some kind of isolated load like a motor spinning a generator that you tie back to your batteries. The point of the spikes isn't just impedance its because what happens on your load side effects the ground side but in reverse and you use that to your advantage.

There is seriously soo much good info on this thread and a few others.

I know you tried before but have another go, do you still have the parts?
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  #4864  
Old 07-20-2019, 11:29 PM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Head pounding

NRIC,

You have to forgive bi. He doesn’t have near the background in electronics you do, and has been living in a box his entire life. Every time we try to take the top off he pulls it back down. He is not here to learn anything. His sole purpose is to detract, derail and discredit. And he is persistent. He has never contributed a single thing, but he is always hanging around, just waiting for any chance he gets to delay the work here.
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Last edited by Turion; 07-20-2019 at 11:38 PM.
  #4865  
Old 07-21-2019, 04:15 AM
bistander bistander is offline
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My test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Then run the motor on the battery until it WONT run and THEN try the experiment. Thatís the whole POINT bi. You have to actually LOOK at things on the bench and quit depending on what YOU think you know. Because you DONíT. And YES, it is nitpicking. You know very WELL what the purpose of that experiment is and STILL you avoid the issue and focus on details where you can CONTINUE to play the expert. You try your best EVERY time to sidetrack the discussion.
Hi Turion,

You're wrong. I don't know the purpose of that experiment. I was sure what would happen. Confident enough not to really consider running it. But WTF. I have an extra AA alkaline cell here and an older, yet functional 12V lead-acid. So I ran the test. The 12V battery was in decent shape with a charge and easily ran the scooter motor. The AA cell was good and could manage to run the motor slowly. Photo below.



Motor is running with 1.34V and .154A. So I discharged both and connected negative to negative with the motor connected to the cell positive and battery positive. Photo below.



Lead-acid battery at 1.655V, AA at 1.31V and 0.104A in the circuit. I confirmed voltage across motor with another meter at .34V. Motor did not rotate. Even giving it a twist. I could feel a favored rotation direction so the .104A was producing some torque, just not enough. I left it like that for about 10 minutes. Lead-acid voltage slowly crept upwards but never budged the motor shaft.

Results per my expectations.

Regards,

bi
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  #4866  
Old 07-21-2019, 04:27 AM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Lol

I gotta hand it to you bi, you will go to any lengths to try to discredit me, including running a perfectly good battery down to nothing. Good for you! I SINCERELY APPRECIATE the fact that you ACTUALLY tried the experiment. So I take it this means you do not accept my theory that the energy is not consumed by the load? Or that the energy is still in the battery just equalized between the two sides?
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Last edited by Turion; 07-21-2019 at 04:29 AM.
  #4867  
Old 07-21-2019, 05:39 AM
bistander bistander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
... So I take it this means you do not accept my theory that the energy is not consumed by the load? Or that the energy is still in the battery just equalized between the two sides?
Let's put it this way. I accept the science and theories which are well established and easily found in many reputable textbooks and college curriculums. Theories are like claims. You're expected to provide proofs. The authors and professors do this and have been for a very long time for the views I hold. Case in point; how the lead-acid cell works.

Quote:
https://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/lead.htm

The present lead-acid cell consists, in a state of full charge, of a negative plate, or cathode, of spongy lead in a grid of hard lead, a positive plate, or anode, of PbO2*paste in a grid of hard lead, and an electrolyte of dilute sulphuric acid of specific gravity 1.28. This is a 37% solution, with 472.5 g/l of H2SO4. At full discharge, the electrolyte is of specific gravity 1.05, an 8% solution containing 84.18 g/l of acid. Both plates are coated with PbSO4. Approximately 4 moles of acid are used per litre, which corresponds to 213 A-h of charge (an ampere-hour is a current of one ampere flowing for one hour, or 3600 coulomb). Assuming that 4 moles of Pb are reacted at the cathode, and 4 moles of PbO2*at the anode, the total weight of active materials is about 3 kg. This gives a weight-to-capacity ratio of 14 g/A-h. Of course, this is much lower than is required for a practical battery, with case, electrode grids and other necessities. However, a limit of perhaps 25 g/A-h represents the maximum that can be expected of a lead-acid battery, and a limit of about 200 A-h per litre of electrolyte volume.

The cathode reaction is Pb + SO4++*→ PbSO4*+ 2e-. For each atom of lead, two electrons pass through the external circuit when the cell is delivering current. At the anode, the reaction is PbO2*+ 4H+*+ 2SO4++*+ 2e-*→ PbSO4*+ 2H2O. This reaction uses the two electrons sent by the cathode through the external circuit. For each two electrons, two molecules of acid are turned into two molecules of water and two molecules of lead sulphate. The electrode potential of the cathode reaction is -0.355V, and the electrode potential of the anode reaction is 1.685V, at standard concentrations. The net potential difference is 1.685 - (-0.355) = 2.040V. At the concentrations in a fully charged battery, the potential difference is closer to 2.2V, decreasing to 2.0V for a fully discharged battery.

It is easy to measure the specific gravity of the electrolyte with a hydrometer, and this gives an accurate estimate of the state of charge of the battery. This is one of the great advantages of the lead-acid cell. Note that the electrode reactions do not show any evolution of gases. With open cells, there is in fact some emission of H2*and O2, so the water lost in this way must be replenished regularly. This was once a regular duty in servicing a car, but modern batteries require very little care, and some are sealed, venting gas only when necessary. Also, ventilation was necessary to prevent the hydrogen from becoming an explosion hazard. When ordinary car batteries are charged rapidly, water is electrolyzed.
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  #4868  
Old 07-21-2019, 08:47 AM
NROC NROC is offline
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Is Your Circuit Wired Up correctly?

Hey bi,

Looking at your circuit, you have a red lead from positive of the lead acid bat going through a clamp ammeter to the +ve of the motor. Then you have the -ve of the motor going to a black cable which looks like its going to the negative of the 1.5v batt when its supposed to go to the +ve of the 1.5v batt. I dont know why you havent shown exactly where that black cable from the motor is going?

Can you show the entire setup?
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  #4869  
Old 07-21-2019, 12:42 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NROC View Post
Hey bi,

Looking at your circuit, you have a red lead from positive of the lead acid bat going through a clamp ammeter to the +ve of the motor. Then you have the -ve of the motor going to a black cable which looks like its going to the negative of the 1.5v batt when its supposed to go to the +ve of the 1.5v batt. I dont know why you havent shown exactly where that black cable from the motor is going?

Can you show the entire setup?
Hi NROC,

Here's a photo near the end of my test showing the test leads in question. There is a red clip lead from AA+ to a black clip lead going to motor plug. Just an extra clip lead I left in there because I was breaking the circuit there and could easily reach other points in circuit.

No funny stuff. I just tried to get close enough to show meter values. I'll hold off recharge in case you want another photo or test. Just ask.

Regards,

bi

ps. Be interesting to see what it does this morning after a night to recover. Lead-acid always seem to bounce back or recover some charge from just resting OC after a discharge. I suspect that was the reason the motor ran for Turion. He may have waited longer between discharge and motor run attempt. I moved quickly and did not give it a chance to recover. The AA cell has nothing to do with it except for being an additional load on the 12V battery.

{edit}
Today, after setting open circuit, overnight, the lead-acid battery showed a bit over 8V and the AA was about 1.3V. The lead battery would run the motor by itself as well as when the AA was put in series, negative to negative. Just normal expected behavior for batteries.



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Last edited by bistander; 07-21-2019 at 11:41 PM. Reason: Added info
  #4870  
Old 07-21-2019, 06:20 PM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Test results

bi,
Unlike some past experiments, you did this exactly right, and I can't argue with your results. I am going to have to go back and find my notes and redo my test. It wasn't QUITE the same as yours, as I had several of the smaller batteries in parallel, but close enough that the results should have been the same. At the time, I was worried about overcharging a single small battery and having it explode. I also worked my way down from a fully charged battery that I kept discharging before measuring. But I measured EXACTY the way you did. SO I find no fault with anything you did. Now I just need to figure out WHY we saw different results. Could be I was seeing things. I saw a UFO's twice. Nobody believed that either.
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  #4871  
Old 07-24-2019, 08:09 PM
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Turion Turion is offline
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A couple things before I go

When I get the time to rerun the experiment bi just did, I will post my results to compare to his. Good or Bad.

Second, when I get the generator put back together, which I am working on now, I will shoot some video and you will all have access to that, though maybe not in a way you expect.

Three, my final thoughts about the 3 Battery system. The one thing you should have understood from the 3 battery system is that the energy is NOT consumed by the load. All else flows from that understanding. It has brought me to where I am now.

I have nothing more on the 3BGS that I am willing to disclose, and the gen info you will get when it is available. So coming here is a waste of my time. I will see you all when there is something worth discussing that I CAN discuss.
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  #4872  
Old 07-25-2019, 02:43 AM
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SkyWatcher SkyWatcher is offline
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Hi all, Hi turion, thanks for sharing.
Look forward to the video you will be sharing in a way you think we will not expect.

Also, 2 men can be standing beside each other and looking at the same thing, we should not assume each are seeing the same thing, and that includes ufo's.
Seen much myself in this weird, wild realm we are in.
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  #4873  
Old 07-25-2019, 04:09 AM
Pot head Pot head is offline
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Hi Skywatcher

I hope your build is coming along.
On the subject of batteries being discharged,
my 24 volt bank was 4 volts when I returned from duty.
I charged it added water and keep it up until needed.
Because of its depletion, I took the time to keep on top of the cells until balance is achieved again and the rate of health is normal.
I try to keep a float charge now to aid in staying healthy.
27 volts at 2 amps is the float charge rate for these.
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  #4874  
Old 07-25-2019, 04:21 AM
Pot head Pot head is offline
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Turion, stop, write a book and make money.
Let the book be read and studied.
Thumb your nose at obvious immature personalities.
If anyone has a problem with that I can still wrestle your carcass while scalping.
Yeah, I talk big.
I have a tiny life with half a wit like my inspiration Gilligan.
Now for real talk.
Make the brats read a book.
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  #4875  
Old 07-25-2019, 09:15 AM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Book

The book is mostly written. Just waiting until after we win the Nobel Prize in Physics before we publish. Will sell more copies that way. I'd send you a copy of the manuscript, but there's too much stuff in it we haven't released publicly.
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Last edited by Turion; 07-25-2019 at 09:18 AM.
  #4876  
Old 07-29-2019, 12:56 PM
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Machiuka Machiuka is offline
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Exclamation Overunity by mistake

I've had the privilege to witness for almost an hour how overunity looks like. I was amazed, and if not the films that I've made, I've doubted myself about it. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to replicate that experiment since then. Almost like Turion with his 3 batteries setup. I saw my 4 batteries under load how are maintained fully charged, despite the fact that the charger itself and a led bulb was energized by them through an UPS transformer. If any of you could explain that I'll be grateful for. The link is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX-CzxNov5s. I have also 3 more videos made on that day, but they are pretty much the same, therefore I didn't post them on YT. I'm in search of overunity for years, and if not my own experiment I couldn't believe that this phenomenon truly exists. Now I know for sure it exists, but I know also that the balance to generate it is very fragile.
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  #4877  
Old 08-02-2019, 05:48 AM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Fragile Balance

How fragile that balance is depends on a number of things. The frequency of the pulse you are using to charge the batteries, the size of the WIRE used in connections. The metal in the wire used to make connections. The size of the batteries in the experiment. The temperature of the room in which the experiment takes place. I can tell you right now that a working Tesla switch will sometimes work in the morning but not in the afternoon. A five degree temperature shift can kill that "fragile balance" you speak of. We know this from experience.

Dave
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  #4878  
Old 08-10-2019, 05:45 AM
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Bad Battery

In my very first post on this thread back in 2012, I told the story of the bad battery I ran across that did amazing things in the 3 battery system. I looked to replicate that results for over two years, and was not able to. I believe I have run across such a battery again.

Let me tell you about it. I have a battery charger that is designed to maintain batteries, and since I have 8 lawn and garden 12 volt batteries and 8 pair of deep cycle 6 volt golf cart batteries (each pair wired in series to give me 12 volts) that charger is always being moved down the line, keeping all my batteries topped off. One battery has really given me problems. The charger has four positions on the front 25%, 50%,75% and 100%. It will take an entire day to get that problem battery up to 100% and within a couple hours it is back down to 10.5 volts.

So tonight, just for fun, I connected it in the 3 battery system. I had JUST charged it, so when I connected it, the STOCK motor immediately began to run, but all the batteries, though they all went DOWN immediately in voltage, held steady, and eventually all began to climb. I called Bob French on the phone and he and I talked for ten to 15 minutes AT LEAST while I kept checking voltages and doing things that he suggested. Finally, I got off the phone and shot the following 19 minutes of video. I apologize for the blank spot for a minute or so in the middle, but I had to put the phone down while I connected up the 35 watt bulb to try and keep my battery from overcharging.

Anyway, it is replicating the performance of my original "bad" battery that allowed me to run loads for several WEEKS before I took the setup in an airplane to CA to visit a patent attorney, and when I got home it no longer worked. I will not MOVE this battery, and intend to do lots of testing over the next few days and shoot lots of video. So prepare to be bored to death watching numbers on volt meters for long periods of time.

In the 19 minutes of running this video, the voltages on the two primary batteries did not go down, and the voltage on battery 3 continued to rise, even with the load of a 12 volt motor and a small auto tail light bulb directly across battery 3. You will see that I added a 35 watt load, and was able to draw down battery 3, but the minute that light was disconnected, the voltage began to climb right back up.

Now I realize the naysayers are going to say that the two motors I ran and the light bulb I had connected are "nothing" loads that draw no amps, and I agree. I am not disputing that. But I hope over the next several days of testing I am able to show that there is something to all this. I am NOT recharging the primary batteries, and I am NOT recharging battery 3. We will see where all three stand tomorrow when I get a chance to run some more tests.

For now, here is the 19 minute video. Hope you like it. These are all STOCK MOTORS.


David Bowling <dvd.bowling@gmail.com>
10:24 PM (1 minute ago)

to Bob, me

https://youtu.be/8ZIFTKUiEqY
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Last edited by Turion; 08-10-2019 at 05:48 AM.
  #4879  
Old 08-10-2019, 06:34 AM
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BroMikey BroMikey is offline
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Good demo Dave, when I did this experiment with 16ah (Small)
batteries the 24v side only went down .02v per hour but hooked
straight off 2 batteries in parallel way faster. Something about the
3 battery system keeps all the batteries charged up while running
and I think it is the brush discharge is open to spikes, does it.

Not a closed system, open.
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  #4880  
Old 08-11-2019, 01:57 AM
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Nice vid

Thanks for the vid Dave. It's remarkable how the run bats stay pinned at same voltage. (and even seem like they want to climb?) I have a battery just like you are describing that I'll be hanging on to till I can experiment with this..

I wonder if a battery converted to alum may be interesting in this setup as I've read they exhibit similar lower voltages. Anyways I don't want to speculate in your thread any further and will just wait until I can start working with this..

Did want to ask a question though. I have one of those bike motors (24v is the one i could find) on the way and will be ordering more soon. Should I be looking at converting to the Matt motor config? I've seen some mention of it but have not really found where it was originally discussed and searching hasn't turn up much other than more mentions.

Can anybody fill me in on the benefits of that configuration? more torque? more returning energy to the system?

I'm totally eager to read up on it if anybody can point me in the right direction.

Thanks!
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Last edited by RIDDIM; 08-11-2019 at 02:55 AM. Reason: grammatical error
  #4881  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:31 AM
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Turion Turion is offline
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DRDIM,
The reason for the Matt modified motor is that every battery has a frequency at which you can pulse it where the impedance is the LOWEST possible. This means MORE of the energy you put into charging the battery is absorbed by the battery instead of wasted overcoming impedance. The modified motor allows you to pulse at that frequency because of its built in off time.

Couple that with hitting the battery with couple volts over its standing voltage by using the boost module, and you have a battery charging circuit.

I need to report that I did a few hours of testing with what I hoped was a "special" battery today. Not so special. Back to the drawing board.
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  #4882  
Old 08-13-2019, 05:22 PM
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Turion Turion is offline
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3 Battery Setup

Bob French is seeing some really interesting results with 2 alum batteries, a Matt modified motor and caps in place of battery 3. Here are the three videos he has sent me he gave permission for me to post.

https://youtu.be/ARYWLM3iTu0
https://youtu.be/HG-bKmNOeg8
https://youtu.be/QPbbwzTUtDY
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  #4883  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:46 PM
RIDDIM RIDDIM is offline
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[QUOTE=Turion;319990]DRDIM,
"every battery has a frequency at which you can pulse it where the impedance is the LOWEST possible."

Fascinating. So you are saying that by the nature of how the Matt Motor works, (and perhaps how it is wired into this circuit?) it operates at the frequency of lowest impedance for the battery it is working with automatically?

Have you noted if the frequency of lowest impedance for a given battery is static based on its characteristics or dynamic through it's charge curve?
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  #4884  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:29 PM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Data

I have not.

Watch the videos Bob French posted about battery two charging negatively. One of the things he did, when the system would no longer run because both primaries were so low in voltage was to turn the modified Matt motor with the drill to get it to charge negatively. It was done to LEARN more. What he saw was that at lower frequencies the battery charged BETTER and he adjusted the rpm of the drill accordingly. It is why I disagreed with bi when he said the pulsing boost module provided the pulse the battery could use to charge. From what I have seen, that pulse was way too fast to achieve what we want, and it is entirely possible, and even likely, that the optimal frequency changes with the sulfation present or the charge present in the battery, or some combination of both. Possibly very low frequency when the battery is very low, and a higher frequency when the battery is near full.

The cool thing about Bobís experiment is it shows that battery 2 is being hit with voltage to send it negative, even when the other primary battery is nearly dead. Could this voltage be coming from the motor as a generator? I know what Bob thinks. You should ask him about the little lights he tried to put on the system that melted in his hands.
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  #4885  
Old 08-17-2019, 03:31 AM
RIDDIM RIDDIM is offline
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noted

Okay, thanks. I will.
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  #4886  
Old 08-19-2019, 11:52 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Its Funny!!

All these phenomena were found years ago, and today people who find them wonder how it is possible, "OH my god what is going on here...."
Yet to this day this thread is wasted on people like BISEXUAL (bistandard) and his rubbish and the over filled NONSENSE of the bromikey, spelled in lower case for a reason.
Man this place has gone down hill. Just walk away, learn about electricity and research the true history of it, This place will tell you nothing and even less tomorrow. Thanks Dave!!!
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  #4887  
Old 08-21-2019, 10:05 PM
Quantum_well Quantum_well is offline
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Zinc chemistry, see Revolution Green.
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