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  #4801  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:06 AM
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Heating

Netica,
I don't have an answer to that question, but I would assume NOT based another test runs I have done with a pulse motor running the thing.

Matt designed a circuit to use the coils as both a motor coil and a generator coil, and I built it. At the time, I had not yet discovered the solution to magnetic neutralization, so the motor was drawing a massive amount of amps. Anyway, there were two switches in the design. One to turn the motor off and the other to turn the generator on. They had to be flipped in the correct order, and of course I flipped them in the WRONG order, which blew the transistors. It was shortly after that I figured out the magnetic neutralization, and have just run the whole thing with a small motor. I haven't even bothered to run it on the 3 Battery circuit to recover most of the expended energy because I already know I CAN, and it is easier to just run the motor off a power supply than to mess with rotating batteries and all that switching.

My research was focused on TWO things when I stopped to remodel two houses. The first was core material, and the second was an entirely NEW configuration of the generator using a PacSci motor that has shafts coming out both ends. The new configuration would have 20 coils on it and at around 200 watts per coil, that would give me something worth keeping. I have the design all done, but didn't build the machine yet, although I bought all the parts.

The reason I wanted to experiment with that design is because a smaller machine could be built using a razor scooter motor that you knock the shaft out of and replace with (I believe) 7/16 all thread. By drilling a hole in the other end cap of the motor, you can put the rod all the way through and that allows you to build a small six coil machine that you can print all the parts necessary for construction on a 3D printer. I have the design all worked out and If you have a 3D printer, a Dremel tool, a set of dremel drill bits, and a plunge router attachment https://www.walmart.com/ip/Dremel-50...10090302008005
along with a regular drill, you can build all the parts.
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  #4802  
Old 06-10-2019, 06:25 AM
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Hello again Turion,

I have noticed a difference between the 6 coil machine and the 5 coil machine that I have been thinking about.

With the 6 coil machine I can see that all the coils energize at the same time, and with the 5 coil machine the coils energize one at the time.

Have you noticed any problems or benefits from either set up. More so for the generation of electricity and the way it is saved or used, does the coils interfere with each other, or any other issue you have noticed.
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  #4803  
Old 06-10-2019, 02:35 PM
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6 vs 5

Netica,
You are correct about the two machines. The six machine has six coils on each side of the rotor, so 12 coils interact at once. This was TOO MUCH magnetic drag for the motor to overcome, especially on start up (over 100 amps drawn through the motor) so I had already switched to the 5 machine, which has five coils on each side of the rotor and only a pair interacting at the same time, to reduce that amp draw to something that wouldn’t burn up so many motors before I figured out magnetic neutralization. Now I have applied what I learned to BOTH machines. The other major difference between the two machines is the six machine has two sets of magnets on the rotor. It has the N/S magnets that go past the coils and ANOTHER set of magnets out closer to the rim that are all N on one side and all S on the other. These interact with a set of adjustable magnets on the stator, so there is a north magnet on one side of the rotor that interacts with a north magnet on the stator and the opposite side of that magnet on the rotor is south and interacts with a south magnet on the stator. Because the rotor and coil holder must be bigger to accommodate the extra magnets, and it uses 3 times as many magnets, this machine is MORE expensive to build, and I felt it wasn’t worth talking about. The 5 machine takes advantage of the fact that with five coils evenly spaced, and an even number of magnets on the rotor, when a magnet on the rotor is aligned with a coil, the magnet directly across from it on the rotor is aligned with an empty space BETWEEN coils, so I could put repulsive magnets there. BUT, this required that the rotor have all North magnets on one side and all South on the other in order to make the magnetic neutralization work. My thought was that while this may ultimately not be the BEST of the two designs, it is the CHEAPEST and more likely to get people to actually build it. So it is the one I have done videos of and have been talking about for a while now. When I first brought up the generator on this thread it was the 6 machine because that’s what I built first, and it was fantastic with only four coils in it. Definitely COP>2. The problem was, when I tried to add more coils the motor was damaged. But as I already said, this was BEFORE I figured out the magnetic neutralization.

For all my power output testing I have hooked a 300 watt light bulb to a pair of coils that are across the rotor from each other. So each pair of coils is independent of all the other pairs and connected to its own individual load. I figured some electrical engineer who knows far more than I do about power conversion could figure out how to wire all those pairs to work together.

As I have said MANY times. This is a test machine. I built it to test size and thickness of magnets to see what outputs the best with 3/4 diameter coil cores. I built it to test core materials to see which produces the most with the least negative effects. I built it to test wire length, size and winding configurations. My hope was that others would build and I wouldn’t have to do ALL the testing on my own.
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  #4804  
Old 06-11-2019, 06:05 AM
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Thanks Turion,

The original 6 coil pair machine must have been very large to accommodate the extra set of magnets. How large was the diameter of the rotor?
Is there much performance loss with all the same pole magnets, Like is it really worth building?
I know also its also alot more challenging and dangerous to build a large rotor and coil holder.
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  #4805  
Old 06-11-2019, 01:46 PM
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Comparison

There is NO loss in performance PER COIL between the two machines. One machine has 10 coils and the other has 12, so there is a loss in total output. All magnets do is induce flux in the coil. N/S rotors vs N/N rotors seem to produce the SAME amount of flux. There is a “virtual south” between two N/N magnets. The biggest issue with any of these machines is that the cores can become slowly magnetized when sitting still, so I remove my rotors when they are not going to be running for a while, or disconnect all loads and let my rotor slowly rotate.

I can’t measure the rotor on the big machine as it is in for testing and some work at the machine shop in conjunction with the tests. , but it was about 12 inches in diameter. From the experimenting I did, I would recommend 1” between any magnet on the rotor and another magnet.
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  #4806  
Old 06-12-2019, 07:07 PM
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Turion,

That's good that no matter what configuration the power generation is the same for either set up.

I am wondering if you have ever tried to use 20mm or 3/4 inch diameter magnets in your rotors rather than the 1 inch ones and if so what kind of differences in results you may have found.
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  #4807  
Old 06-12-2019, 07:52 PM
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Magnets

It isn’t the diameter of the magnet that gives you the generating capacity, it is the MASS If you go to a smaller diameter magnet you can actually get MORE output by increasing its length. This makes a thicker rotor, but a thicker rotor has more stability.
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  #4808  
Old 06-20-2019, 07:26 PM
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Coil Question

An open question to the forum...What is the most power in watts you have been able to generate from a coil, and what was the makeup of that coil. In other words, how many strands of what size wire at what length. What size rotor with what size magnets turning at what rpm was used.
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  #4809  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:32 PM
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My personal experience

I have only used 8+1 coils (from TeslaGenX)before the junkyard build.
I will have 6 units to replace.
Each unit has 2 coils in parallel per circuit board.
The units run cold and no trigger resistor.
Each board holds 8 transistors.
The magnets are 2x1x1/4 inch N52 and two are used per set paralleling the coil middles.
I don’t know the watts but the working units charged my 1110 amp hour battery bank in about 12 hours from total discharge of about 9 volts, but I never let it go that low because it ran continuously to power my home.
I have 4 inverters that are 30/30 apiece.
So what is being used?
The coils side by side with a pair of magnets on one 2x4.
See the damages inflicted upon the build?
The circuit board is on the backside of the coil build.





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Last edited by Pot head; 06-20-2019 at 10:13 PM.
  #4810  
Old 06-21-2019, 03:44 PM
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Pothead, What do you mean by "4 inverters 30/30 apiece". I've got a big inverter (and other small ones ) but can't decipher what 30/30 apiece is about.
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  #4811  
Old 06-21-2019, 07:54 PM
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Sorry

Hello ewizard, sorry about the confusion.

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File Type: jpg 78FBEE17-F5AD-476E-8374-5D8DBEEFC551.jpg (137.6 KB, 106 views)
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  #4812  
Old 06-22-2019, 03:29 PM
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Final Build

I am building one final version of this generator.
I am ordering parts sometime in the next 30 days as I get my list together of all the parts I need. I will be able to consolidate a lot of things because I will no longer need to leave room for taking coils in and out of the design. Once they are in, they are basically in to stay.

It will be the final build of the generator for several reasons. First, the only thing left was to see if a different core material produced equal flux with less heat. I no longer care about that. I have seen that a water jacket will keep the cores cool and the generator can be used to heat water while it is running. Next is that this machine running on a PROPER 3 battery system or even the single battery circuit is everything I wanted to accomplish.

Finally, as I have seen what is possible with the 3 battery system this kind of tech has simply become outdated. There are more efficient ways to produce power and I want to spend my time with that.

As I add parts, I will update the list below. I just wanted you guys to see that I put my money where my mouth is on this stuff, and I wouldn't put out this kind of money for something that doesn't work. Or would I? Am I really THAT crazy?

The new rotor I am building requires 24 of these:
Rotor Magnets
$527.76 plus shipping
Just a moment...

A New rotor just over 4” thick from 4.25 stock.
Acetal (polyoxymethylene) is a high strength, low friction engineering plastic that has excellent wear properties in both wet and dry environments. Easy to machine, acetal makes an outstanding choice for applications that require complex, tight tolerances.
https://www.eplastics.com/4-250-X-12...k-Acetal-Sheet
$268 plus shipping

Five of these
https://www.magnet4sale.com/magnet-w...s-11-lb-spool/
$595.30 plus shipping (Actually a couple bucks cheaper than the wrong one I posted previously

3 of these
$33.84 plus shipping
https://www.amazon.com/UCF202-10-Pil...V4/ref=sr_1_8?
keywords=5%2F8+flange+bearing&qid=1561216018&s=gat eway&sr=8-8

4 sheets of plastic 14 x 14 x 1
$310.88 plus shipping
https://www.tapplastics.com/product/...uper_thick/615

Base sheet 14 x 30
$166.54
same supplier

Two Inside 1/4 sheets to retain coil
$39.20
Same supplier

Spacers
Stainless steel bolts, washers, nuts
bobbins
core material
epoxy
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Last edited by Turion; 06-24-2019 at 02:36 AM.
  #4813  
Old 06-22-2019, 10:51 PM
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Thanks Dave, you are making history with this build. The possibilities
are greater with a core that can be changed? And the heat issue
sounds like you might be able to heat a tiny hot water heater something
tank to wash your hands with in the shop. I like water cooling better
anyway. All generator have some form of cooling @ 2000watts.

Thanks for sharing the price list with the specific parts list. It is an
exciting opportunity that I am glad you have chosen not to miss.

Sounds like more than a 2000watt machine actually but 28awg?

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Last edited by BroMikey; 06-22-2019 at 11:16 PM.
  #4814  
Old 06-23-2019, 12:21 AM
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In tribal and or family issues, to tell the tale to seven witnesses and then they tell seven others, is how early legends and history was established.
Since Turion is telling the tale, it will be told to the several others who are of this tribe and or family.
This is my way and this post waits for all the details to follow.
Please tell more of your tale Turion so even the newest member can bear witness.
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  #4815  
Old 06-23-2019, 01:26 AM
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Turion wrote:
Five of these
$598.25 plus shipping
https://www.amazon.com/Magnet-Wire-S...y&sr=8-2-fkmr0

Is this a typo? Didn't you mean 23awg?
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  #4816  
Old 06-23-2019, 01:34 AM
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Correction

YES. #23
I’ll find the link and change ut
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  #4817  
Old 06-23-2019, 02:59 AM
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Turion,

If you are making an aluminum rotor and you still are using the stationary magnets to prevent the cogging, surely as the aluminum rotor spins, the magnetic field of the stationary magnets will cause drag on the rotor and heat up the rotor.
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  #4818  
Old 06-23-2019, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netica View Post
Turion,

If you are making an aluminum rotor and you still are using the stationary magnets to prevent the cogging, surely as the aluminum rotor spins, the magnetic field of the stationary magnets will cause drag on the rotor and heat up the rotor.
Dude if it does heat up a small amount, aluminum is easy to machine
out an 1/8" so magnet shields could be used to stop flux migration.
But it is time to get away from a liquid rotor.
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  #4819  
Old 06-23-2019, 03:47 AM
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Netica, hi, I think magnets as bearings are in the right direction but Turion might have another thought.
Water bearings? Good for the sharp mind to build.
Vacuum bearings? Tesla design.
Perhaps Turion will write the answer.
Perhaps a metal tube vacuumed out to 2 atmospheres and injected with water until minus one atmosphere and then set as the core of a coil?
How rediculous, huh?
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Last edited by Pot head; 06-23-2019 at 03:51 AM.
  #4820  
Old 06-23-2019, 10:14 AM
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Eddy current brake

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netica View Post
Turion,

If you are making an aluminum rotor and you still are using the stationary magnets to prevent the cogging, surely as the aluminum rotor spins, the magnetic field of the stationary magnets will cause drag on the rotor and heat up the rotor.
Good catch, Netica.

bi
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  #4821  
Old 06-23-2019, 01:21 PM
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Netica,
That is a really good point. I appreciate you pointing that out. I DO intend to use the opposing magnets so I will definitely have to rethink the use of aluminum. I do NOT want to have to pay for a SECOND rotor.
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  #4822  
Old 06-23-2019, 09:22 PM
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One possibilities so magnets are not flush with the surface of the rotor
"might" keep the flux down to a minimum, however 4" Lexan and 1.5"
shaft and bearing would work also.

Acetal Sheets $268 here for 3" X 14" X 14" probablt to expensive tho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u751Qmq6li0


https://www.professionalplastics.com...-POMSHEET-RODS

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Last edited by BroMikey; 06-23-2019 at 10:29 PM.
  #4823  
Old 06-23-2019, 10:36 PM
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You don't ever, ever, EVER want the magnets to stick out of the rotor. Take it from someone who learned the hard way. If they catch on ANYTHING at high speed, that rotor can EXPLODE. Neos flying at a couple thousand rpm won't go as deep into you as a bullet, but the impact area is a WHOLE LOT bigger. With what I have seen it do to lightweight metal, plastic and wood, I truly FEAR what it will do to flesh and bone.
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  #4824  
Old 06-24-2019, 01:48 AM
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I really do have these same fears of ceramic glass bullets flying
so it is so critical for me to have the magnet shield on mine. Without
a solid steel shield I would be afraid too. Also I would be afraid of a 5/8"
shaft for such a big rotor. If it was me and had all that money use for
this project the shaft and bearings would be over 1" to cut down on
any play.

you know I have not thought enough about this yet having so many
magnets on a rotor of metals. What went thru my mine was to have
a small distance as shown so if it was a metal rotor the opposition
magnetic fields would not have an effect being so far away.

Leaves you one thing to use, non metal rotor, I can't even find any
plastics that thick yet. Lexan would be so much heavier and you
bearings would need to be bigger is all.

There is composite board just as good as steel, I just can't find it
again. It is a higher temperature rated material.

The other guy is right, aluminum would heat up at 1/8" gap really bad.
The shields also now only safe guard against impact of the ceramic but
could reduce the size of the magnets and you are going to need them
with 24 of them side by side anyway.

If I see that (Oflalic?based composite) special board again I'll point
it out to you down the road. Either way being so close together those
magnets might have overlapping fields without a shield.
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  #4825  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:38 AM
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Update

Found some 4.25 thick x 12" x 12" sheets. Pricy
https://www.eplastics.com/4-250-X-12...k-Acetal-Sheet

I updated the parts list. Not that anyone else's going to build this, but you never know.
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Last edited by Turion; 06-24-2019 at 03:02 AM.
  #4826  
Old 06-24-2019, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Found some 4.25 thick x 12" x 12" sheets. Pricy
https://www.eplastics.com/4-250-X-12...k-Acetal-Sheet

I updated the parts list. Not that anyone else's going to build this, but you never know.
Dang nice find, yer good to go, same price as the link I sent you for 3".

Please consider doing some experiments or just treating the whole
thing as an evolving work. I am going to draw it out in a minute, trying
to think how much space is in between the magnets. Maybe there is
enough so no fields overlap. Boy that would be nice, wouldn't it?

That floppy rotor you sent me? Don't want to hurt your feelings
here. Anyway the system you have works so I think you
should stay with that unless you want to build a few little ones?

The same material as the thin floppy one is excellent and I am a good
of mechanical structures. Or some plastic thick enough, plus the magnets
are long cylinders and have all of that surface area to grab not like
standing up a silver dollar and trying to fasten it with the edge only.

Yet even with only a tiny edge it held pretty good so think of how much
better itis going to be. Safer. Here is the way i think lately on my design.

First I like shields (youknow) and I like press fit and magnets inside
steel sleeves have the advantage. First and foremost steel can be struck
and the ceramic glass inside of it will not crack. My only problem is
I want to attach the sleeves first by press fit and then tack weld those
once centered to the rotor disc. So as a compromise I have threaded
sleeves on the outside that could be tack welded also.

So what? Maybe I could come back over my rotors with a nice plastic
cover to shim up the space? Hum... got me thinking on safety.

Yeah $300 bucks is a lot of Maui Waui It's worth it.
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Last edited by BroMikey; 06-24-2019 at 06:21 AM.
  #4827  
Old 06-24-2019, 06:20 AM
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I will finish later but this is what I wanted to find out.

12" rotor 24 magnets around a 10" circle leaving 1/2" plastic
perimeter = 10" X 3.14 = 31.4" - 24" (the magnets) = 7.4"
left over to evenly space magnets @.308" not enough room
between to keep the fields from overlapping and no room
to come back later to add shields.

Still got 29days left to figure in the math. If you go to a 13" circle
you will have a .57" between so use a 14" rotor, I would say, this
would give you more flexibility in case you had to come back later.

It's yer baby.

http://flyer.thenetteam.net/3batterygen/graphrotor.jpg
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Last edited by BroMikey; 06-24-2019 at 06:24 AM.
  #4828  
Old 06-24-2019, 02:57 PM
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Info

Bro Mikey,
Attached is a way to make SURE the magnets do NOT come out of the rotor. In the 41/4” thick material you drill in two inches deep and 3/4 wide from each side. This leaves you 1/4 thick material in the center 3/4 diameter. You drill a 1/2” diameter hole in that material and fill it with a 1/4 thick by 1/2 diameter magnet. This acts as a magnetic link between the two larger magnets. Good luck getting them out!

Also attached is a picture of arotor with magnet centers at rotor centers. This is what needs to happen to fit the construction of the coil holder from the size materials I have shown. As you can see, there is plenty of room between magnets. There needs to be at least a magnet width between magnets , and I have more than that. But I also have only 12 (on each side) magnets on the rotor. I have room for more, so I am going to look at that.

Have you built a rotor WITH iron shielding and one WITHOUT iron shielding around the rotor magnets to measure the difference in coil output? I ask because adding iron shielding basically increased the diameter of the rotor magnet which means you can have FEWER magnets on the rotor. If there IS a gain from using magnetic shielding it is going to be x amount per magnet pass times a number of magnets vs a smaller output times a larger number of magnets. Which gives the most output? I don’t know. I really can’t afford to build two rotors to compare the difference.

Also, it doesn’t have to be 24 magnets or 12 magnets. It can be any even numbered amount.
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Last edited by Turion; 06-24-2019 at 02:59 PM.
  #4829  
Old 06-24-2019, 09:35 PM
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Reposting Video

I am reposting this video to emphasize a point. When you are running the modified motor on the three battery system, I have said the SIZE of the battery makes a difference. In this video I show two batteries in series charging batteries. If I had only charged one or two batteries, the gain would have been about the same per battery, because of battery impedance in the small batteries, but because I had a LARGE NUMBER of them, I was able to spread the charge energy across ALL of them. That is why I said you need a large deep cycle battery. Because you PAY for the energy (it is pulled out of the two primary batteries) that is used to run the motor and it is going to use the same amount of energy whether you charge ONE high impedance battery or 30 of them. As I showed, you can charge a BUNCH because there energy is THERE, but a single battery can only absorb so much per rotation of the motor. The rest basically goes to ground. You need to think differently if you are going to be successful with this stuff.

https://youtu.be/VMxEUZfncvA


Dave
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  #4830  
Old 06-25-2019, 12:16 AM
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I wish the video had analog meters to show the actual voltages before, during and after.
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