Energetic Forum  
Facebook Twitter Google+ Pinterest LinkedIn Delicious Digg Reddit WordPress StumbleUpon Tumblr Translate Addthis Aaron Murakami YouTube 2020 ENERGY CONFERENCE - PRE-REGISTER NOW!!!!

2020 Energy Science & Technology Conference
PRE-REGISTER NOW!!!
http://energyscienceconference.com


Go Back   Energetic Forum > >
   

Renewable Energy Discussion on various alternative energy, renewable energy, & free energy technologies. Also any discussion about the environment, global warming, and other related topics are welcome here.

* NEW * BEDINI RPX BOOK & DVD SET: BEDINI RPX

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #4501  
Old 01-29-2019, 02:17 PM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,890
Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
... post truth, facts, evidence and proof.

Simple, right?

bi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfA
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote

Download SOLAR SECRETS by Peter Lindemann
Free - Get it now: Solar Secrets

  #4502  
Old 01-29-2019, 06:44 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by hherby View Post
Connect the second boost convertor to battery 3, Bat 3 pos to boost2 in pos, bat 3 neg to boost2 in neg, boost2 out pos to bat 2 pos (top positive of series connected batteries 1 and 2). Slowly adjust the boost2 output to slow down the drain on the series batteries by recirculating current going to bat 3. At one point you can come to a balance where the voltages stay very steady for a long time.
@hherby, thank you for your reply. I've done the modification to my setup, and now I'm watching the numbers...
L.E. Booster 2 is quite hot... I hope it will resist to this treatment... :-)
Best regards,
Teodor
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20190129_203709.jpg (170.4 KB, 28 views)
__________________
 

Last edited by axxelxavier; 01-29-2019 at 06:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4503  
Old 01-29-2019, 08:30 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 302
In the light.

In the light of overwhelming evidence from Aaron Iíll admit defeat on my
take on LA battery performance.
John.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4504  
Old 01-29-2019, 10:55 PM
bistander bistander is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,587
I'd like to replicate

Quote:
Originally Posted by axxelxavier View Post
Just a quick update.
As I told you, my test now it's using a booster, set on 14,7 volts on the output.
Total time running, so far, is 6 hours, 43 min, and battery 3 seems to be charged faster, BUT, C20 rate are exceeded, because current draw on the input of the booster (which was in the beginning at 2 amps) now is on 2,62 Amp, and it's increasing (differential voltage on the input = 11,47 volts). On the output of the DC booster (going to the inverter), current draw is 1,74 amp.
Not sure what to do, though. I think I am going to let the system to work for 2 more hours, and I am going to measure the current draw before stop it. If it will exceed 4 Amp, I think I am going to shut down my test. I cannot afford to kill a good battery...
Now I am using a 150 watt, like the first image in the attachment, with no current limit.
I have also a bigger one (1200 watt - second image in the attachment) which have an option to limit current... this should be better?
Best regards,
Teodor
Hi Teodor,

Did you get more data? Also, please post or refer to a circuit diagram. I am considering doing the test here.

Thanks,

bi
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4505  
Old 01-29-2019, 11:25 PM
Aaron's Avatar
Aaron Aaron is offline
Co-Founder & Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,963
topping charge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamnuts View Post
chart_lead1.jpg
It's very simple - I agree that chart is accurate, but only shows what happens when a topping charge is not attained. Why limit your possibilities to only that, which has been thoroughly conditioned into the mass mindset? That doesn't apply to what I told you, however. Again, any conventional charger pushing batteries to 13.8-14.8 will have a decline in capacity over time because on each charge cycle, there is still sulfation left on the plates.

That is the entire point to what I was telling you.

Here is the pdf with the chart for anyone to see - there is a lot of good info in there on lead acid charging chemistry: http://freesolarsecrets.com/solarsecrets.pdf

This is the most important chart ever made for lead acid battery science, in my opinion.





You must charge the battery until you get the voltage dip transition from P to R. When you do, you have reversed the chemistry to like-new condition. The dip is a drop in impedance as I said, the final layers of sulfation dissolved into the solution. If you do this on every charge cycle, the battery life cycle is theoretically INFINITE. If you have a solar setup with battery backup, the batteries can outlast the solar panels, which are expected to last 20-25 years, if the batteries were able to get pushed to the topping charge.

That chart is 100 years old - that is how long this has been known but the lead acid battery industry has quietly ignored this because they're in the business of selling batteries.

About 1-2 years ago, I met with a Linear Technology rep and we were talking about batteries. He used to be in the nicad industry and he said that is very well known that if you charge nicads without experiencing the dip, you will wind up damaging the batteries - yet, nobody seems to know this is exactly what lead acid batteries need as well.

If the batteries are AMG or gel cells, then 14.6-14.8 is the limit or you will dry them out - they also display the same voltage drop when they are truly topped out.


John, it would behoove you to understand this because if you failed in achieving results experimenting with the methods Bedini made popular, then you weren't applying all the information. I like John Koorn's rule of thumb if I recall it correctly - with a Bedini type system, 1 watt per 1 Ah is about what you need to do it right. So a single coil SG with 7-8 power windings will be roughly a 20-25 watt machine so is only good for getting a battery that is 20-25 Ah pushed to 15.1-15.3 volts.



I've seen the results go up in a very non-linear fashion. With Bedini's 10-coiler, that would be around a 200 watt machine - however, it could fully charge a 1200 Ah cell phone tower battery bank being run on an identical 1200 Ah battery bank. Each battery in the string was 2 volts 1200 Ah as far as what I can recall. And, when the output bank was charged, Peter discharged that output bank and got 10 times more than what left the input battery. That is a COP of 10.0 - that is some serious "overunity", but most people can't afford those banks. I wouldn't want them because they're a pain to handle. The reason is because of the ultra-low impedance on a bank that big. With the radiant impulses, any resistance dissipates it so with a large battery bank like that, it sucks it up like a vacuum. The round trip efficiency is irrelevant with these methods because what you get out of the battery is related, but is absolutely NOT directly proportional to what went in into the battery. The chemistry converts that radiant into charge separation and the amount of charge separation is clearly INDEPENDENT of the amount of electricity that went into the battery because it is an open system. The coils on the SG are open and the battery is also part of the open system. I don't know if I agree exactly with all the subtle nuances of Bearden's Negative Resistor explanation of the batteries being charged in this method, but the output battery definitely is put into a negative resistor mode.



Every time you have an impulse (sharp gradient), you are polarizing the aether at the coordinates in space where the terminals are, dipole or each bit of chemical charge separation. The aether then polarizes and condenses and moves into the circuit at those points meaning with the impulses, you are causing those points to become locations where environmental source potential enters the system. That polarized aether is the emf (electromotive force), which moves from positive to neutral and that causes electrons from the circuit to start moving in the opposite direction, which is the source of current - the copper wire, not magical charge that people think is stored in the battery.



This is why it is important to use as big of batteries as you can and is why most people have never seen anything unusual with small batteries. Dave here has mentioned big batteries many times and this is one of the main reason why - the lower the impedance, the more the battery chemistry will convert radiant to charge separation. You don't need 1200 Ah batteries.


I use 35Ah AMGs all the time for just testing things out and getting a feel for what I'm doing in my experiments. 100Ah at minimum is more time-worthy if you're looking for something interesting but I like my T-105s the best - those are 6v 225Ah batteries.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami


Last edited by Aaron; 01-29-2019 at 11:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4506  
Old 01-30-2019, 03:32 AM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,890
Battery Chargers???

Aaron,
With John's passing, is anyone manufacturing battery chargers based on his tech. I mean besides "you know who"?
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
  #4507  
Old 01-30-2019, 07:28 AM
Aaron's Avatar
Aaron Aaron is offline
Co-Founder & Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,963
Bedini's chargers/rejuvenators

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Aaron,
With John's passing, is anyone manufacturing battery chargers based on his tech. I mean besides "you know who"?
Short answer: Tom & Eric are making some solar charge controllers available and I've been testing some prototypes based on John's circuits that I'm putting into production soon.

Long answer: see below...

Tom & Eric I think have a couple solar charge controllers. Those are straight linear current regulator chargers so are not the best for rejuvenating old batteries but are good for keeping good batteries in good condition.

Soon, I'll be putting a 5 amp 12 volt solar charge controller back into production - actually, John only made one of those for me for to test, but it will be produced instead of the 3 amp 12v one, which was very popular. It is also a linear current regulator circuit.

If you get a constant current constant voltage adjustable dc power supply - you can set it to charge up to 15.1-15.3 for flooded cell batteries - just short the leads and adjust how much current you want it to max out at and when hooking it to a battery, it will for the most part act just the same. Just with the solar charge controllers, they can always receive solar input easily.

I've been testing one of John's prototypes that is more efficient than the older charge controllers (Solar Trackers) - still linear current regulator circuit, but more efficient. He considered it to be the best one he ever designed but never had a chance to put it into production. I'm waiting for some of the components so I can build a few more prototypes for testing. This one will obsolete all linear current chargers that he produced in the past.

Any of these solar circuits can of course be operated with a power supply instead of panels - like the one described above to mimic a solar panel for testing.

For rejuvenation of older batteries, the only charger John came out with that did that with inductive discharges (spikes) was the original Generation 1 - 2A12 - 2 amp 12 volt. It was short lived because the batteries charged or rejuvenated that way long enough didn't like to get charged with normal straight current chargers anymore. All 2A12 models after that went to cap discharge.

The last model (5th generation) 2A12 that was released was the EX or Extreme version, which was the best. It was actually identical to the 3rd generation model. The 4th generation was less aggressive and discharged a cap about half as fast - still excellent but the 5th generation was a reintroduction of the 3rd generation because it was stronger. Magically, after John died, the pic chip source code for that model disappeared. I might just put the 4th generation one back into production - still an excellent unit and nothing else touched it for what it was compared to anything on the market.

I have also been experimenting with some of the old Tesla Switch Solar Amplifier circuits prototypes. I may put those back into production as well and they are also excellent rejuvenators. The charged the caps in parallel and discharged in series.

First one I'll put back into production will be the S5A12 solar charge controller. Second will be either the 2A12 Generation 4 model or the Tesla Switch Solar Amplifier or the linear current one that is the most efficient one that John never put into production. Anyway, the 2nd one to be put in production will be one of those 3 - haven't decided yet.

Other than these future plans, nobody is producing anything worth mentioning in my opinion.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami


Last edited by Aaron; 01-30-2019 at 07:34 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4508  
Old 01-30-2019, 01:58 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Teodor,
Did you get more data? Also, please post or refer to a circuit diagram. I am considering doing the test here. Thanks,
bi
@Bi,
I have data only for the first run of the 3BGS setup with booster, which last only 11,27 hours, until differential voltage drop below inverter low voltage limit (9,6 volt).
Second run is not complete, and I added also a second booster, for recovering some energy in the primaries. The results looks so far promising, but, I believe now the load it's too big for the system, so I may drop one led bulb, to see if I can balance the system.
In attachments, you will find also the schematics with one booster and with two boosters, I hope they are clear enough.
Best regards,
Teodor.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 01.jpg (187.4 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg 20190130_155446.jpg (301.7 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg 20190130_154618.jpg (288.4 KB, 43 views)
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4509  
Old 01-30-2019, 02:46 PM
bistander bistander is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,587
Thanks

Thanks, I can work with those diagrams.

Was the 2.070 Amperes in the baseline (test without boost converter) measured at the input to the inverter?

Regards,

bi
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4510  
Old 01-30-2019, 03:29 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 70
@Bi,
Yes, this value was on my first setup, at the input on the inverter, without booster, using only a 300 watt inverter (200 mA idle current draw) and 3 LED bulbs as load (two 7 watt Led bulb + one 8 watt led bulb).
With booster set on 14,7 volts on the output (inverter), current draw raised quite fast to almost 2,8 Amp, as you can see in my latest diagram.
Now, I've removed from load one led bulb (7 watt), so current draw now fit in C20 discharge rate, and I have also hooked the second booster back to primaries.
I am just curious to see how much will last this setup.
L.E. Just a quick update. I've notice something interesting: yesterday I was using for a time the second booster, and today, after almost 18 resting hours, batteries showed almost the same voltage as before rest...
In my previous setups, without the second booster, the voltages from all three batteries has changed significantly after a long resting - both bats from primaries gain some volts, and the charged batteries usually lose some volts....
Best regards,
Teodor
__________________
 

Last edited by axxelxavier; 01-30-2019 at 05:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4511  
Old 01-30-2019, 07:33 PM
hherby's Avatar
hherby hherby is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 86
Booster 2 connection

Quote:
Originally Posted by axxelxavier View Post
@Bi,
I have data only for the first run of the 3BGS setup with booster, which last only 11,27 hours, until differential voltage drop below inverter low voltage limit (9,6 volt).
Second run is not complete, and I added also a second booster, for recovering some energy in the primaries. The results looks so far promising, but, I believe now the load it's too big for the system, so I may drop one led bulb, to see if I can balance the system.
In attachments, you will find also the schematics with one booster and with two boosters, I hope they are clear enough.
Best regards,
Teodor.
Teodor,
The output of booster 2 should be connected to the + of battery 1 according to your diagram. You show it connected between battery 2 and battery 1
Cheers,
Alex
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4512  
Old 01-30-2019, 08:18 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by hherby View Post
Teodor,
The output of booster 2 should be connected to the + of battery 1 according to your diagram. You show it connected between battery 2 and battery 1
Cheers,
Alex
@Alex, thank you for your reply.
You are right, I've notice a significant fall from battery 1, so I will make the modification tomorrow evening, when i will run again my setup.
This is for me the most obvious proof that booster 2 mod is working, because even now, batt 2 and 3 are in equilibrium, and batt 1 which is not helped by booster 2, drops slowly voltage.
Best regards,
Teodor.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 02.jpg (243.2 KB, 13 views)
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4513  
Old 01-31-2019, 11:55 AM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 302
Point.

A point I was trying to get across was RTE.
I did this test with lithium ion because it is fairly accurate.
I used 1780 mah from my battery. I then charged my battery with
my IMAX B6. This showed me that it needed 2000 mah. to recharge.
This means that the efficiency was 89%.
100% was coming from the wall and I got back 89% of that from my
battery.
Aaron couldnít seem to grasp this.
From what I get from various sources is that, for lead acid, it is sort of
the 90% mark.
The IMAX manual says it is difficult to determine full charge with la, thatís
why I used li ion.
According to me this is a factor in 3BGS.
John.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4514  
Old 01-31-2019, 12:15 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 302
A few facts.

According to the forklift boys.
Use a modern charger.
Never go below 70% DOD.
Donít overwater a new battery at break-in.
Donít if possible give a lunch-time boost charge.
1500 cycles is decent.
Donít over-charge.
Never let electrolyte below top of plates.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4515  
Old 01-31-2019, 01:57 PM
citfta's Avatar
citfta citfta is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,319
There is no comparison between Li-ion and LA batteries. They are totally different. I use LA batteries regularly for my research into the possibility of OU. I use Li-ion regularly in my RC airplanes so I am familiar with the charging and care of both types of batteries.

Just for your information I tried a little test yesterday. I have a good battery analyzer that will give me the actual CCA of a battery and the internal resistance. I took a badly sulphated battery and measured a CCA of only 36.66 CCA. This battery is supposed to have a CCA of 145. It is a small U1 type of battery. These are the very minimum size battery you can use to prove the 3BGS system will work.

I pulsed the battery with 15.5 volts with a duty cycle of 25% and a frequency of 20 hz. After pulsing the battery for about 8 hours I let it rest overnight. When tested again this morning I got a CCA of 45.40 and an internal resistance of 65.50 milliohms. The previous internal resistance was 72.28 milliohms. So both the CCA and internal resistance shows that the proper charging of a battery can restore and keep a battery in good condition.

And I did see the battery reach a plateau of about 14.45 volts and just sit there. It was at that point I believe the desulphation was taking place.

I will keep pulsing this battery until I can't get it to restore any further and see how far it can be restored. It has been sitting for over a year without any use or charging so if it can even be restored to half of it original capacity that if proof enough for me that pulse charging and using a higher voltage for charging than is normally used is the proper way to take care of a battery.

Carroll
__________________
Just because someone disagrees with you does NOT make them your enemy. We can disagree without attacking someone. This means YOU especially BroMikey.
Reply With Quote
  #4516  
Old 01-31-2019, 03:01 PM
bistander bistander is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,587
Battery testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
There is no comparison between Li-ion and LA batteries. They are totally different. I use LA batteries regularly for my research into the possibility of OU. I use Li-ion regularly in my RC airplanes so I am familiar with the charging and care of both types of batteries.

Just for your information I tried a little test yesterday. I have a good battery analyzer that will give me the actual CCA of a battery and the internal resistance. I took a badly sulphated battery and measured a CCA of only 36.66 CCA. This battery is supposed to have a CCA of 145. It is a small U1 type of battery. These are the very minimum size battery you can use to prove the 3BGS system will work.

I pulsed the battery with 15.5 volts with a duty cycle of 25% and a frequency of 20 hz. After pulsing the battery for about 8 hours I let it rest overnight. When tested again this morning I got a CCA of 45.40 and an internal resistance of 65.50 milliohms. The previous internal resistance was 72.28 milliohms. So both the CCA and internal resistance shows that the proper charging of a battery can restore and keep a battery in good condition.

And I did see the battery reach a plateau of about 14.45 volts and just sit there. It was at that point I believe the desulphation was taking place.

I will keep pulsing this battery until I can't get it to restore any further and see how far it can be restored. It has been sitting for over a year without any use or charging so if it can even be restored to half of it original capacity that if proof enough for me that pulse charging and using a higher voltage for charging than is normally used is the proper way to take care of a battery.

Carroll
Hi citfta,

You do realize that internal resistance and CCA (cold cranking Amperes, which is related to internal resistance) are not real indicators of capacity, although batteries with low capacity due to sulfation tend to also exhibit low CCA and high internal resistance. Does your good battery analyzer have a capacity test (Ah)?

U1 is garden tractor cranking battery size. I think the 145CCA is the least available sometimes on sale under $20. As such, the quality could be questionable. Do you even have a specification for internal resistance or Ah? Let alone tested values when new?

I found over the course of testing a thousand or so high quality AGM batteries that incoming quality was an issue so every one was tested for capacity. Ampere hours, or actually watt hours, was our primary criteria. Always had 1 to 3 fail completely on arrival whether lot size was 1, 3, 12, or 100. Then remaining were sorted to tested Ah, with like a 20% variance. Without accurate benchmark testing on the actual sample, valid, reliable data from subsequent testing is tough. You really don't know what you started with.

Anyway, I like to see you testing that U1. Just a couple days ago I bought several batteries in from the barn to basement due to the forecast -20įF. One of which was a new "cheap" FLA U1. I bought it last summer for my mower but it didn't fit due to fill caps. Need a VRLA with smooth top. For the $16, I just kept the FLA thinking I had a use for it elsewhere. So, I was thinking I'd run some tests on it to Aaron's magic 15.2V dip. I need a way to record charge voltage vs time. My CBAIII doesn't have that feature.

Regards,

bi
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4517  
Old 01-31-2019, 03:11 PM
bistander bistander is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,587
Li-ion RTE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamnuts View Post
A point I was trying to get across was RTE.
I did this test with lithium ion because it is fairly accurate.
I used 1780 mah from my battery. I then charged my battery with
my IMAX B6. This showed me that it needed 2000 mah. to recharge.

This means that the efficiency was 89%.
100% was coming from the wall and I got back 89% of that from my
battery.
Aaron couldnít seem to grasp this.
From what I get from various sources is that, for lead acid, it is sort of
the 90% mark.
The IMAX manual says it is difficult to determine full charge with la, thatís
why I used li ion.
According to me this is a factor in 3BGS.
John.
Hi Iamnuts,

That's odd. The coulombic efficiency of Lithium ion batteries is usually greater than 99%. From my experience, 100%. The RTE figure is lower but pretty much entirely attributed to voltage drop.

Regards,

bi
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4518  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:41 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 302
Agree.

Bi,
just found this;

28 Oct 2016 ∑ Tesla just released all the details of its Powerwall 2 and it is a ... 7 kW peak; Round Trip Efficiency: 89% for AC Powerwall, 91.8% for DC ...
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4519  
Old 01-31-2019, 11:25 PM
Aaron's Avatar
Aaron Aaron is offline
Co-Founder & Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,963
Unconventional battery facts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamnuts View Post
A point I was trying to get across was RTE.
I did this test with lithium ion because it is fairly accurate.
I used 1780 mah from my battery. I then charged my battery with
my IMAX B6. This showed me that it needed 2000 mah. to recharge.
This means that the efficiency was 89%.
100% was coming from the wall and I got back 89% of that from my
battery.
Aaron couldn’t seem to grasp this.
From what I get from various sources is that, for lead acid, it is sort of
the 90% mark.
The IMAX manual says it is difficult to determine full charge with la, that’s
why I used li ion.
According to me this is a factor in 3BGS.
John.

I already clarified that I understood that and also that what you claim to be battery science fact applies onto to low quality charging that never hits the topping event. Obviously, batteries will deteriorate over time - unless you hit the topping event as shown in the graph from the "Battery Bible."

For your information, around 2004 when Peter Lindemann worked at John's they did a lot of non-stop charge/discharge tests - that was during the week. The graphs all showed that they were able to discharge more from the battery than what went into them - it was absolutely overunity so your coveted round trip efficiency was over 100% with flooded cell lead acid batteries, indisputably - and it seemed to happen predictably every single time. Then over the weekend, the batteries sat and come Monday, the charge and discharge cycle showed that the overunity disappeared. Just sitting a couple days was enough to nullify whatever conditioning effects were happening in the battery that allowed the gains. That was all solid state, without a wheel spinning and without considering any mechanical work done. Most people will never see this because most people will never do that many consecutive charge and discharge cycles to see it.

"Various sources"?? Why not find out yourself so you can be your own source of information by actually doing the experiments? If I listened to all the various sources out there, I would have never accomplished anything because everything would already have been figured out.

There is no battery capacity analyzer in the world that will give an exact indication of what is in a lead acid battery. I remember John and Peter wrestling with this with all kind of meters they had and none of them were very good. I sort of recall John communicating with B & K to give them feedback on the deficiencies on their expensive battery analyzers. Some are better than others, some are pretty close, but nothing gives a more accurate measurement than charging a battery up and discharging it with a 20 hour rated load to calculate how many Joule seconds you got back. There are obvious situations where it would be good to know what the load-powering capability is without having to drain the battery.

However, if you have the battery full charged by a very specific method to a certain voltage and you do the draw down test - the CBA-IV automates this, you will see exactly what you got out of the battery until it gets down to a certain voltage. That gives you a good benchmark to go by. If you charge the battery up by the same method until it gets to the same voltage, you can be guaranteed that you will be within just a couple percent of your last draw down test. That is valuable information.

That can be done with the 3 Battery method so it does not have to be an issue or factor as you say. If the total work done exceeds what you start with and it is obviously well above a few percent difference, then it is over 1.0 COP, which it is. Instead of focusing on every reason why it can't work - why not focus on how it can be done?

Conceptually, this could work better with LiFePo4 batteries since they have ultra low impedance compared to lead acids. Babcock stair stepped his 24v LiFePo4 bank with his single coil SG up bit by bit and wound up with his battery banks charged up with more voltage and capacity than what they started with. Those batteries aren't supposed to like spikes or cap dumps, but they didn't complain the whole time there were being charged on the single coil SSG with inductive spikes. Long term, I don't know the effects on those batteries, but I saw this happen and I wasn't the only one.



Keep in mind Lithiums are constant voltage batteries and lead acids are constant current - so you are comparing apples to oranges.


There are only two points you have tried to make in this.

1. You get less from the battery than what you put into it - this can be and has been defeated many times. Concepts such as recycling electricity so to speak ought to ring a bell so one would think, "Hmmm, maybe I should actually listen to something that may benefit me!" Others have their ideas why and I have my own ideas, but the bottom line is that it can be defeated.

2. A battery will lose capacity over time and this only happens when the batteries are chronically undercharged. I show you a graph from a 2A12 Bedini charger showing the capacity goes up on each charge and what is your response? To post a charge showing the decrease in battery capacity over time, which is irrelevant if one knows how to charge the battery up to begin with? You're not bringing anything new to the table except for the desire to see the glass half empty. Bring them to a true topping charge and you can increase capacity even above the manufacturers rating and keep it there. If there is something that someone cannot grasp, such as yourself, it is this indisputable fact proven by people all over the world. You seem knowledgeable enough to understand the simple logic behind the Battery Bible chart. Why argue it without testing it out for yourself? Why you cannot admit this is true means you are only trying to maintain a confirmation of what you already believe instead of learning something new.

You admitted yourself you failed in the Bedini experiments so you are the one who was not able to grasp what was taught or did not actually apply what you learned. That is on you and not on anyone that is getting real results.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami


Last edited by Aaron; 02-02-2019 at 05:49 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4520  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:10 PM
bistander bistander is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,587
Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
...
1. You get less from the battery than what you get out of it - ...
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the lengthy explanation. But I don't understand the above quoted sentence. Seems to contradict itself.

Regards,

bi
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4521  
Old 02-02-2019, 05:49 AM
Aaron's Avatar
Aaron Aaron is offline
Co-Founder & Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Washington State
Posts: 10,963
edit

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the lengthy explanation. But I don't understand the above quoted sentence. Seems to contradict itself.

Regards,

bi

I corrected it.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

Reply With Quote
  #4522  
Old 02-02-2019, 01:57 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 70
Ok, so I've got final results...33 Hours running time, less than before.
Before jumping to a conclusion, let me tell you a few things about my setup: I used only one booster, in the beginning, and the current draw raised big time, from 2 A to almost 2,8 A.
After a resting time, I've removed a led bulb from load, to fit in C20 rate, so now the load was 2 A again.
I've added, also, a second booster, initially, to positive of the second from series batteries, and voltage for bat 2 and 3 was, for some time, very steady, but bat 1 has lost some power. In the end, I've hooked up the second booster to the positive of the first one from the series batteries. But all setup was unstable, so from time to time, I had to remove second booster from setup, to aloud Batt 3 to be charged, and after a while, I connected again, to charge also battery 1.
The results was not as I've expected, but, I have to admit this was a hybrid test, and the load was exceeded C20 rate for a good period of time.
What it was interesting, though, on this final setup: there was no need to rotate batteries, only to connect / disconnect second booster when needed.
I am going to recharge two from my primary batteries using the same charger as before (CTEK MSX 5.0), and maybe I am going to try again.
Anyway, I am open to opinions / critics / suggestions.
Best regards,
Teodor.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 01.jpg (187.4 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg 03.jpg (162.9 KB, 5 views)
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4523  
Old 02-02-2019, 04:50 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 302
Interesting sort of chart

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content...2/figure-1.gif
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4524  
Old 02-03-2019, 07:01 PM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,890
Circuits

None of the 3 Battery stuff we have posted can be “scaled up” to run your house. The whole purpose has been to teach some basic concepts about how this stuff works and get you to look at what is ACTUALLY going on in these circuits so you will learn some things that can be applied to OTHER circuits. You need a scope and you need to take measurements of every part of the circuit and you need to use your brain and think a bit. Or don’t. It is always your choice.
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda

Last edited by Turion; 02-03-2019 at 10:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4525  
Old 02-04-2019, 05:58 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
None of the 3 Battery stuff we have posted can be ďscaled upĒ to run your house. The whole purpose has been to teach some basic concepts about how this stuff works and get you to look at what is ACTUALLY going on in these circuits so you will learn some things that can be applied to OTHER circuits. You need a scope and you need to take measurements of every part of the circuit and you need to use your brain and think a bit. Or donít. It is always your choice.
Hmm, I thought this thread is about makers, about sharing experiences, about learning together from each other. I shared without any restriction all that I have learned, with failures and small progresses, sometimes...
I am not complaining about anything, I don't ask anything, I'm not judging no one, I am only asking:
what is the purpose of this thread, after all?
Anyway, I want to thank everyone who tried to help me: hat off!
Good luck in your researches!
Best regards,
Teodor.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4526  
Old 02-04-2019, 06:56 PM
bistander bistander is online now
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 1,587
Reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by axxelxavier View Post
Hmm, I thought this thread is about makers, about sharing experiences, about learning together from each other. I shared without any restriction all that I have learned, with failures and small progresses, sometimes...
I am not complaining about anything, I don't ask anything, I'm not judging no one, I am only asking:
what is the purpose of this thread, after all?
Anyway, I want to thank everyone who tried to help me: hat off!
Good luck in your researches!
Best regards,
Teodor.
Hi axxelxavier,

It does seem like Turion contradicts himself and avoids answering questions. I thought Aaron's resent posts explained the phenomena at the heart of the matter. So I altered my experiment plan to explore directly what he explained rather than repeat what you did. I just need to wait on delivery of the instrument (in the mail) so I can document the charge cycle energy. Hope you stick around. I like to see your data posts.

Regards,

bi
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4527  
Old 02-04-2019, 07:38 PM
Turion's Avatar
Turion Turion is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,890
Clarification

I said none of the 3 Battery stuff we have presented AS IT STANDS can be scaled up to run a home. That does not mean with a GENERATOR it couldn't, and it doesn't mean that if the concepts taught here are PROPERLY APPLIED you couldn't get what you need. I just don't want people believing you can get all the energy in the world out of a 3 Battery system, because it is too small to do much of anything the way we have presented it. It is only for proof of concept, and even THEN people don't build it correctly, so why show anything ELSE?
__________________
"I aim to misbehave" Malcolm Reynolds
"Try Not! Do or do not. There is no 'Try' ". Yoda
Reply With Quote
  #4528  
Old 02-04-2019, 08:09 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 302
Battery store.

I needed a battery today and called by my supplier.
When they were filling the acid I had a look round and noticed a few Optima
batteries in a corner.
They looked a bit different so this evening I had a look on the ĎbayOptima YELLOW TOP YTS 4.2 8012-254 8012254 AGM Battery 12Volt 55Ah 765A is an AGM technology dual-purpose deep-cycle and starting battery. This battery has three times the cycling capability (rechargeability) with ultimate cranking power for your auto, car or truck to outperform traditional batteries. This battery is perfect for powering heavy electrical loads, including winches, audio systems, inverters, and other demanding vehicle accessories and electronics. Lower internal resistance provides more efficient power output and faster recharges.

Main Features:

Lasts twice longer than traditional batteries
More than 15 times the vibration resistance
Completely spillproof, mountable in virtually any position
Maintenance-free
Faster recharging
300+ discharge/recharge cycles

Unfortunately all of this comes at a price. They seem to me to be about
three times the price of the ones I usually buy.
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
  #4529  
Old 02-04-2019, 08:43 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi axxelxavier,
It does seem like Turion contradicts himself and avoids answering questions. I thought Aaron's resent posts explained the phenomena at the heart of the matter. So I altered my experiment plan to explore directly what he explained rather than repeat what you did. I just need to wait on delivery of the instrument (in the mail) so I can document the charge cycle energy. Hope you stick around. I like to see your data posts.Regards,bi
I don't want to argue, with nobody. I payed attention to Aaron's explanations, as they fit with my own other projects. Maybe I will talk about them, when I have some validated results to show. Or maybe not.
I will consider sticking around, to see your tests - I'm curious if they coincide my current path.
If interested, I am going to make some other 3BGS tests, in a „classical manner”, maybe will present some interest for you or anyone. This time, however, batteries are charged differently: one with classical charger, and the other with a pulse charger. I will make this test probably in the weekend, to fit in a bigger time frame work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
... and even THEN people don't build it correctly, so why show anything ELSE?
Maybe some of us need encouragements, maybe some of us need examples... I cannot afford LiFePo4 or some fancy high tech devices (including oscilloscope), and I know the motor - generator system works, but right now I'm looking for a silent version (solid-state?), because the noise is simply too annoying in my small apartment. There must be other ways to achieve the same result.
And yes, I am a practical man, I want something which I can use in real life.
Lighting in my house (100-150 watt), while regenerating / recharging some batteries, will be enough, for me.
Best regards,
Teodor
__________________
 

Last edited by axxelxavier; 02-04-2019 at 08:48 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4530  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:44 PM
altrez's Avatar
altrez altrez is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 555
Hello All,

What is the most current schematic for each circuit that everyone is using to test with? I want to make sure that I have the right setup for my next run of tests this week.

Thank you,

-Altrez
__________________
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
save, system, generating, battery

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Please consider supporting Energetic Forum with a voluntary monthly subscription.

Choose your voluntary subscription

For one-time donations, please use the below button.


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v1.4.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2007-2015 Copyright - Energetic Forum - All Rights Reserved

Bedini RPX Sideband Generator

Tesla Chargers