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#4441
12-28-2018, 05:48 PM
 Turion Gold Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,463
Schematic

In the basic 3 Battery system there is a high voltage source and a low voltage source. The motor simply acts as a mechanical switch to momentarily connect the high voltage to the low voltage sending a CHARGE pulse to the low voltage side. Notice the negatives are connected, completing the circuit. ANYONE should be able to understand that when you connect a high voltage to a low voltage, the charge is going to move in a SPECIFIC direction.

In the single battery circuit the output of the boost module is the high voltage source. Again, the motor acts as a mechanical switch connecting the high voltage to the low voltage momentarily. Notice the negative of the boost module, which is a through connection on the boost module (meaning the input and output negatives are tied together) is connected to the negative of the battery. So there IS a complete circuit here despite your contention otherwise.

This is how battery 3 charges in the 3 battery system and how the single battery in the single battery circuit charges. The Matt motor and LARGE batteries are required for it to work, as is the boost module.

Your discussion with Matt about a SPIKE returning to the primary battery from the motor has NOTHING to do with the CHARGE CIRCUIT and IF that happens it is an additional benefit. I cannot speak to that because I haven't investigated it. I am only concerned with the PRIMARY action here which is charging battery 3 in the 3 battery circuit and charging the single battery in the single battery circuit. It is EXACTLY the same circuit in both drawings. High voltage source switched by the motor to a low voltage source. It comes out of a high voltage positive and goes into a low voltage POSITIVE. And the negatives are connected.It is NOT rocket science. Why you cannot understand this simple principle I do not know.
Attached Images
 bi 1Basic 3 Battery System.jpg (50.1 KB, 36 views) bi Single Batery Circuit.jpg (38.1 KB, 175 views)
__________________
—Bernhard Haisch, Astrophysicist

Last edited by Turion; 12-28-2018 at 05:53 PM.
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#4442
12-28-2018, 06:15 PM
 bistander Gold Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 1,698
Pink arrow

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion In the basic 3 Battery system there is a high voltage source and a low voltage source. The motor simply acts as a mechanical switch to momentarily connect the high voltage to the low voltage sending a CHARGE pulse to the low voltage side. Notice the negatives are connected, completing the circuit. ANYONE should be able to understand that when you connect a high voltage to a low voltage, the charge is going to move in a SPECIFIC direction. In the single battery circuit the output of the boost module is the high voltage source. Again, the motor acts as a mechanical switch connecting the high voltage to the low voltage momentarily. Notice the negative of the boost module, which is a through connection on the boost module (meaning the input and output negatives are tied together) is connected to the negative of the battery. So there IS a complete circuit here despite your contention otherwise. This is how battery 3 charges in the 3 battery system and how the single battery in the single battery circuit charges. The Matt motor and LARGE batteries are required for it to work, as is the boost module. Your discussion with Matt about a SPIKE returning to the primary battery from the motor has NOTHING to do with the CHARGE CIRCUIT and IF that happens it is an additional benefit. I cannot speak to that because I haven't investigated it. I am only concerned with the PRIMARY action here which is charging battery 3 in the 3 battery circuit and charging the single battery in the single battery circuit. It is EXACTLY the same circuit in both drawings. High voltage source switched by the motor to a low voltage source. It comes out of a high voltage positive and goes into a low voltage POSITIVE. And the negatives are connected.It is NOT rocket science. Why you cannot understand this simple principle I do not know.
Thanks for the diagram.

So the pink arrow represents current. See the node where it ends in your marked diagram? There, it completes its circuit by flowing to the right into the positive terminal of the boost converter, not into the positive terminal of the battery. Therefore the current does not charge the battery.

Regards,

bi
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#4443
12-28-2018, 07:20 PM
 Turion Gold Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,463
Circuit

If you had actually built it with the CORRECT components, you would discover just how WRONG and RIGHT you are. It DOES go to the right, in a loop that keeps you from drawing down on the primary battery. The SAME energy is used over and over again because of that loop. With the addition of the generator whose output goes THROUGH a load the same way the output of the boost module goes THROUGH the motor, and to this same “node” there is more input to that point than is needed by the boost module, so the battery charges. These are FACTS.
__________________
—Bernhard Haisch, Astrophysicist

Last edited by Turion; 12-28-2018 at 07:24 PM.
#4444
12-28-2018, 07:59 PM
 bistander Gold Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 1,698
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion If you had actually built it with the CORRECT components, you would discover just how WRONG and RIGHT you are. It DOES go to the right, in a loop that keeps you from drawing down on the primary battery. The SAME energy is used over and over again because of that loop. With the addition of the generator whose output goes THROUGH a load the same way the output of the boost module goes THROUGH the motor, and to this same “node” there is more input to that point than is needed by the boost module, so the battery charges. These are FACTS.
Turion,

These are not facts, but just your imagination. The battery in the single battery circuit does not charge at any time. Therefore it does not matter if I used a Matt modded motor or a standard motor. Your explanation is incorrect.

You just wrote: "It [the current] DOES go to the right, in a loop that keeps you from drawing down on the primary battery."

It does not "keep you from drawing down" the battery because the power is coming from the battery in the first place. Even the power from the generator comes from the battery. It (the power at that node) will never exceed that which is "needed by the boost module". Therefore, like I said, current will not folw into battery positive and the battery will not charge, as you claim. I think my tests show that convincingly. I certainly would like to see tests from you and/or Matt, or from anyone else.

Regards,

bi
__________________

#4445
12-28-2018, 11:08 PM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 11,007
patent

Quote:
 Originally Posted by wrtner Apologies if I am missing something here - but surely a visit to the USPTO will sort this out.

I threatened the attorney because of his lack of due diligence. Thousands of people around the world witnessed me posting my work on it right here in Energetic Forum and it was the #1 public reference to the facts - no way the attorney could not have come across it unless Luc and others steered him away from it. After the battle, my name was eventually added to a patent where I share it with 3 other people that had nothing to do with my circuit. There are 2 other inventions in the same patent that I had nothing to do with so in the end, I have commercial rights to all 3, but so do they. They'll never do anything with it so that's fine with me.
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#4446
12-29-2018, 05:05 AM
 Turion Gold Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,463
Correction

The battery in the single battery setup DOES charge. It just doesn’t increase in charge from where it STARTED, unless of course you have a REALLY good generator running on the Matt motor, which is the whole point. By taking SOME of the energy put into the motor and cycling it back to the beginning, you get extended run times, which is ALL this small system was designed to show. But it won’t do that without the modified motor.

You have no idea what this system is capable of because you have not replicated it. Your opinion is based on the results of an improper replication. Unless you have a properly built system you have NO IDEA what is possible. This system is kindergarten stuff compared to where we are now, and was designed to introduce people to these concepts. Your lack of understanding of what is possible is your own fault, and you will reap exactly what you deserve from this, which is NOTHING.

We on the other hand have the financial backing to do pretty much everything we want to do, and our theories have been verified by individuals with credentiaks in electrical engineering and physics far more impressive than yours. So think what you want. It’s your loss. Your insistence that you know everything and we are wrong just makes me laugh. You know NOTHING compared to what there is to know on this topic, and I would venture to say that by the end of 2019 that will be very apparent to everyone. I can hardly wait.
__________________
—Bernhard Haisch, Astrophysicist
#4447
12-29-2018, 03:12 PM
 bistander Gold Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 1,698
Still

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion The battery in the single battery setup DOES charge. It just doesn’t increase in charge from where it STARTED, unless of course you have a REALLY good generator running on the Matt motor, which is the whole point. By taking SOME of the energy put into the motor and cycling it back to the beginning, you get extended run times, which is ALL this small system was designed to show. But it won’t do that without the modified motor. You have no idea what this system is capable of because you have not replicated it. Your opinion is based on the results of an improper replication. Unless you have a properly built system you have NO IDEA what is possible. This system is kindergarten stuff compared to where we are now, and was designed to introduce people to these concepts. Your lack of understanding of what is possible is your own fault, and you will reap exactly what you deserve from this, which is NOTHING. We on the other hand have the financial backing to do pretty much everything we want to do, and our theories have been verified by individuals with credentiaks in electrical engineering and physics far more impressive than yours. So think what you want. It’s your loss. Your insistence that you know everything and we are wrong just makes me laugh. You know NOTHING compared to what there is to know on this topic, and I would venture to say that by the end of 2019 that will be very apparent to everyone. I can hardly wait.
Still no proof. Just unsubstantiated, extraordinary claims by you without proof or evidence. While my position is backed by hundreds of years of science and millions of experiments and real life applications. You're just a lone voice saying "I have the secret of free energy".

Who is right?

I actually hope you are, but I know better.

bi
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#4448
12-29-2018, 10:14 PM
 Turion Gold Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,463

Time will teli

I should clarify a couple things. The 3 Battery system will extend run times on one or three batteries, depending on which of the two circuits you use. That’s ALL it will do. You can get really long run times. I believe with the addition of a proper generator it is an OU system. The gen I built puts out much more than is consumed by the motor running it when running on those circuits. But I have NOT looped that system. My work was focused on coils that would not heat up with continued use when I had to stop to remodel two houses. But I could see inputs and outputs, and I can do the math. One day I will probably get around to the looping thing.

I could NOT build a self runner based on the 3 Battery stuff without the generator. I understand the principles and WHY it can work and HOW it needs to go together, but I do not have the technical expertise to build a device. I think if there was an EE with the RIGHT background, it would probably take a few months working together to make that happen. We HAVE shown other options besides the generator, but they are complicated and since the generator WORKS....Luckily I don’t need to go down that road. Matt understands the 3 Battery system better than anybody. He knows the motor he modified better than anyone. He already built a working generator with a small unit that put out twice the input. It’s what got me started. That video still exists, including the inputs and outputs, but it is not MY video to share. All I have done is scale up his working devices. I DID figure out the magnetic lock thing so I could have as MANY coils on the generator as I want, A hundred if I want them, still turned by the razor scooter motor. And I did figure out a bunch of stuff about how to wind the coils so that they will speed up under load, and that it is MORE than just having a high impedance coil. So I'm not a COMPLETE waste of space. Oh, and I am the one that has been relentless in talking about the 3 Battery system, who brought it to this forum in the first place, (although Matt was working with the Benetiz stuff and having way more success with that than I have had, which is a parallel path) and will continue to do so until the day we get the big \$\$\$ for this. After that, you're all on your own, and that day is coming soon. Things are happening that won't be talked about here.
__________________
—Bernhard Haisch, Astrophysicist

Last edited by Turion; 12-30-2018 at 07:06 AM.
#4449
12-30-2018, 04:06 PM
 wantomake Silver Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 905

What a shame.
That someone would share freely their idea and hard labor this concept just to see it fall on deaf negative ears.
What a shame.
There's only a few(that I know of) actually building and know success with this concept.
What a shame.
This didn't evolve into a large group of cooperation to build step by step with sharing new information and ideas until the end.
What a bigger shame.
That Dave and Matthew is tired and will soon move on.

I will never be envious of their success, but encourage them both to move on from here to a higher success. Cut the ropes of dead weight holding you down.

What a shame.
wantomake
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#4450
12-30-2018, 04:58 PM
 hherby Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 86
Yes, Works with DC

Quote:
 Originally Posted by axxelxavier Hy, Alex. Thank you for your reply. I don't know much about this driver - I have to search the internet to see if it is capable of switching DC/DC voltage, or to isolate readings from dc voltage. As far as I know, SSR works only with AC voltage, but right now I am using only DC voltage. Best regards, Teodor
There are different types of SSR’s so just ignore the term SSR for now. You asked about a way to switch mosfets using discrete components that doesn’t depend on a common ground.
This driver has internal led’s and photo cells. The led’s energize the photo cells to output an isolated voltage to drive the gate of the mosfet. The output positive goes to the gate and the output negative goes to the source. The mosfet can be high side or low side in the circuit. It doesn’t matter. It would be like connecting a 9v battery positive to gate and negative to source to turn on the mosfet.
P channel mosfets have a high Rds On so it is preferred to use N channel mosfets. If you use a single n-channel mosfet you would set it up so the load current flows from drain to source. Keep in mind the intrinsic body diode will allow current to flow from source to drain when the mosfet is off. If that is undesirable then you would connect two mosfets together, gate to gate and source to source and the load is switched between the drains. The driver positive connects to the gates and the driver negative connects to the sources. When turned on current can flow in either direction just like a mechanical relay. When turned off current is blocked in both directions just like a mechanical relay since the body diodes are opposing each other. These two connection methods are shown at the top of page 5 in the data sheet. Like I said, you can use a 9v battery simulate the isolated switching on each mosfet. I hope that clears things up.
Cheers,
Alex
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#4451
12-30-2018, 06:46 PM
 axxelxavier Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 70
Quote:
 Originally Posted by hherby ... It would be like connecting a 9v battery positive to gate and negative to source to turn on the mosfet...I hope that clears things up. Cheers,Alex
Hy, Alex, thank you for your reply, It looks like this chip is perfect for me.
I will soon order some drivers, to test in 2BGS setup first. Right now, the Arduino + Relays are drawing way too much for my switcher (- 200mA/hour) which is draining very fast the extra (Arduino) battery.
Best regards,
Teodor
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#4452
12-30-2018, 07:49 PM
 Matthew Jones Platinum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 2,741
Quote:
 Originally Posted by wantomake What a shame. That someone would share freely their idea and hard labor this concept just to see it fall on deaf negative ears. What a shame. There's only a few(that I know of) actually building and know success with this concept. What a shame. This didn't evolve into a large group of cooperation to build step by step with sharing new information and ideas until the end. What a bigger shame. That Dave and Matthew is tired and will soon move on. I will never be envious of their success, but encourage them both to move on from here to a higher success. Cut the ropes of dead weight holding you down. What a shame. wantomake
There is more to this than meets the eye. I know your beliefs so you'll understand what I am saying. 1 Corinthians 15:23-25 uses the word "Dominion" In the context it used it means lies that have gained power. Told so often that men are blinded and controlled by these lies. They (the lies) even murder and destroy.
What we are dealing with in the energy is a simple little lie that all electrical systems must be closed loop. How bad off is our planet, how many people die for energy sake.
Open loop systems were very common through the 1800's early 1900's but these systems have been forgotten. Its the entire reason Heavyside used quaternion instead of simple vectors and algebra. To expand his mathematical view of what was happening in the environment around the circuit.
Since those days all systems have closed and all the physics behind electricity have been on closed systems that throw any energy after the work is completed away.
The 3 battery system is an open system, so is the single battery system outlined by Dave. There is no open systems taught for EE degree. They are not even mentioned. In fact in tradition even the thought of them today is mocked. And everything we want to look at is chalked up to ignorance.

What I am trying to say is I don't blame them for not believing or wanting to look. They are controlled people who derive pleasure from interrupting and being general advocate of the dominion they follow. They pay for it in there education. You cannot pacify them with any amount of proof or testing. You cannot entice them to invest in there own knowledge and you will definitely never win with them when they are in troll mode under anonymity on the Internet. Why try?

Just use this place to ask basic question, it worth nothing else. Help the ones who have questions ignore the ones who rant there knowledge.

All of them are going to loose soon. I promise.

Matt
__________________
ADD BROMIKEY TO YOUR IGNORE LIST He is a saboteur bent on the systematic distraction of every good topic on this forum and since he has been here most working threads have shut down. He is the enemy. If you have blocked him already add this to your signature and encourage others to block him as well. His onslaught of rambling in large text and his constant attempts to misinform at the excuse of being stupid should no longer be tolerated.

USER CP/Ignore list.
#4453
12-30-2018, 07:57 PM
 Matthew Jones Platinum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 2,741
Quote:
 Originally Posted by axxelxavier Hy, Alex, thank you for your reply, It looks like this chip is perfect for me. I will soon order some drivers, to test in 2BGS setup first. Right now, the Arduino + Relays are drawing way too much for my switcher (- 200mA/hour) which is draining very fast the extra (Arduino) battery. Best regards, Teodor
Hi
axxelxavier

I have not followed all your questions. If you summarize for me what you are looking for I probably have a schematic for it, with part numbers. From what I have read you need DC/DC ssr's. They can get expensive but at low power they can do a lot. If you looking for high power Fets are the way to go and I have many Fet controlled 3 battery switchers that run from an arduino. Just outline what you are looking for and the next time I check in I'll try to help you out.

Matt
__________________
ADD BROMIKEY TO YOUR IGNORE LIST He is a saboteur bent on the systematic distraction of every good topic on this forum and since he has been here most working threads have shut down. He is the enemy. If you have blocked him already add this to your signature and encourage others to block him as well. His onslaught of rambling in large text and his constant attempts to misinform at the excuse of being stupid should no longer be tolerated.

USER CP/Ignore list.
#4454
12-30-2018, 11:55 PM
 jimboot Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 216
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Aaron Luc Choquette is a liar, con and charlatan - what do you expect? He has so many people fooled into thinking he is some humanitarian that wants to help the world, but I have the emails proving how greedy he is for money - and for something that he did not contribute to!!
ANyone following your work and Lucs over the years will have no problems working out who tells the truth
__________________
Stew Art Media
#4455
12-31-2018, 08:01 AM
 Aaron Co-Founder & Moderator Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Washington State Posts: 11,007
Luc Choquette - fraud

Quote:
 Originally Posted by jimboot ANyone following your work and Lucs over the years will have no problems working out who tells the truth

You got that right!

Especially when Luc admits he learned it from me and then asks me to verify that he got it right.

http://www.energeticforum.com/308987-post73.html
__________________
Sincerely,
Aaron Murakami

#4456
01-01-2019, 08:05 AM
 Turion Gold Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,463
New Year

It's a couple minutes after midnight where I am, so here's my first post of the new year. Just something for you all to think about. I have spouted so much stuff over the last eight or so years on the forum that I honestly can’t remember if I have ever discussed the theory behind the research into batteries I have done. Anyway, I thought I would throw it out here for all the naysayers to have a field day with, correcting my grammar, use of terms and whatever other mistakes I happen to make.

First, let’s look at what we’ve been taught. We put a volt meter on a battery to measure how much energy is contained in it. Then we hook up a load to the battery, say a modified Matt motor, and eventually that motor slows down and stops. We say the battery is “dead” because the motor has used up all the energy in the battery, and now it needs to be recharged. We have been taught that the electrical energy in the battery was converted into mechanical energy that caused the motor to turn. But what if most of that is WRONG?

What if the meter is actually measuring the (potential) DIFFERENCE between the positive and negative side of the battery. And what if that energy stored in the battery is like water, and wants to seek its own level. So that when we connect the motor, the energy from one side of the battery runs THROUGH the motor to the other side of the battery, equalizing. The potential difference is now way lower, so our meter shows very little difference between the two sides. There is NO MOVEMENT of current between one side of the battery and the other, so nothing to make the motor run anymore, and it slows to a stop. The energy is still THERE. It hasn’t been used up, or at least MOST of it hasn’t. Some was converted to heat, but MOST of it is still there. It’s just equalized between the two sets of plates in the battery. No movement of energy ( from one side of the battery to the other) means nothing you connect to the battery will run. To move it all back to one side we hook up a charger and FORCE the energy back to one side, unbalancing the battery and reestablishing the potential difference.

Can I prove any of this? Funny you should ask. If you DO run your motor and it slows and comes to a stop, you would not expect it to suddenly run again would you? Here’s an experiment for the more experienced researcher who can take all the proper SAFETY precautions. Batteries can explode, so don’t try this at home unless you know what the heck you are doing. Take a small battery that only holds a volt or two. Connect its negative to the negative of your “dead battery. Now connect your motor between the positive of your dead battery and the small, low voltage battery. What happens? WHY does it happen?

It happens because the “potential difference” between your “dead” battery and the small, low voltage battery was enough to make the motor run. There was still a WHOLE LOT of energy in your battery, but it wouldn’t move from the side it was on to the other side because the two sides were about equal. But the higher voltage of your “dead” battery was still a MUCH higher potential than the small, low voltage battery. So the motor ran. If you put a load on the lower voltage battery at the same time, it will discharge as fast as it charges and that’s a much safer way to test.

This is the basis for all the work I have done on the 3 Battery system, and what led to an understanding of how electricity REALLY works. Class dismissed
__________________
—Bernhard Haisch, Astrophysicist

Last edited by Turion; 01-01-2019 at 03:29 PM.
#4457
01-01-2019, 09:59 AM
 axxelxavier Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 70
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Matthew Jones Hi axxelxavier I have not followed all your questions. If you summarize for me what you are looking for I probably have a schematic for it, with part numbers. From what I have read you need DC/DC ssr's. They can get expensive but at low power they can do a lot. If you looking for high power Fets are the way to go and I have many Fet controlled 3 battery switchers that run from an arduino. Just outline what you are looking for and the next time I check in I'll try to help you out. Matt
Hy, Matt, thank you for your reply. I'm trying to do an automatic 3BGS switcher using Arduino.
My previous attempt was to make something similar, but only with 2 Batteries and an boost-converter. I managed to make this switcher, but only with a 4 relay module (5 volt).
***It's only me who can't edit properly posts? I can't make a single post decently....
__________________

Last edited by axxelxavier; 01-01-2019 at 10:28 AM.
#4458
01-01-2019, 10:08 AM
 axxelxavier Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 70
Problem editing previous post

I tried to use only n-Mosfet on the low side, but didn't figure how to isolate mosfets from common ground issue, since each need 5 volt, so all mosfets are sharing same ground, which is BAD for switching all connections from those 2 batteries....With relays it is working quite nicely, though the code should be improved. This setup was easy to made, though, since both batteries shared the same ground (common -), in the first place for voltage reading side of Arduino (with voltage divisors), and then for setting the relays.
After some running tests with modified motor in 3 BGS configuration, I was very excited by the results, I decided to go BIG, and to make the 3BGS automatic switcher.
First step was to make an semiautomatic switcher, based on 4 push-buttons + Arduino and relays, so I can select manually what charging configuration I need. See the PDF attached to this post, you will understand better. This configuration works, BUT, there are, also, some issues.
Attached Images
 3BGS_Page_1.jpg (252.1 KB, 17 views) 3BGS_Page_2.jpg (180.6 KB, 18 views) 3BGS_Page_3.jpg (190.0 KB, 15 views)
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Last edited by axxelxavier; 01-01-2019 at 05:48 PM.
#4459
01-01-2019, 10:25 AM
 axxelxavier Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 70
1. because I use a 8 relay module (12 volt, this time), the current draw is bigger (@200 mA - 20 mA for Arduino nano + 150-160 mA for 3 relays ON);
Note: after Alex post, I decided to give a try to his suggestion: VOM1271T Photovoltaic MOSFET Driver, for switching with Mosfet all connections. What do you think?
2. In one configuration (Battery 2+ Battery 3 are charging Battery 1 - Setup 2, page 2 from files attached), the polarity of the load is reversed, which can be a BIG issue sometimes. I figure out how to solve this, but I need 3 more relays, and this time any switching mode have 4 relays ON, which means MORE current draw from the 4-th battery (which is powering my Arduino).
3. For automatic switching, I need for each battery a voltage reading, through a resistor divider. For all 3 voltage readings to be send to Arduino, though, they need to share a common ground, which, again, it's a problem. This can be, eventually, solved with optocouplers like 817 or so.

You mention: „I have many Fet controlled 3 battery switchers that run from an arduino”. How did you managed to solve the common ground issue, for both voltage readings and for switching connections?

Best regards, and A HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Teodor
__________________

Last edited by axxelxavier; 01-01-2019 at 05:50 PM. Reason: Still can't edit properly posts... This is posted from my phone, it won't work other way...
#4460
01-01-2019, 04:07 PM
 bistander Gold Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 1,698
Battery energy

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion ... First, let’s look at what we’ve been taught. We put a volt meter on a battery to measure how much energy is contained in it. ...
Happy New year Turion,

Let's not start the year with a pizzing session, but I gotta say that you have been taught wrong. A voltmeter measures voltage or potential difference (same thing), NOT energy. Using a voltage measurement to attempt to determine the energy of a battery is very inaccurate. I see many here use voltage as an energy indicator and that leads them to erroneous conclusions.

Over the years, Battery University (in Germany) has had both good and dubious information posted at their web site. Back in 2012 I spent several days at a Lithium battery manufacturer next door to the Battery University. It was an impressive facility but inactive at that time so I was unable to visit them. But anyhow, today it appears they do have some good information available in lesson format. I'll link to one lesson, but please study other lessons on the subject of battery energy and state of charge measurements by using prior and next navigation arrows.

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...asure_capacity

Regards,

bi
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#4461
01-01-2019, 04:29 PM
 citfta Gold Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,323
Happy New Year Bistander,

Dave was keeping the discussion simple for those that don't have advantaged knowledge about batteries. He and Matt and I all have battery analyzers to keep check on what our batteries are actually doing and the amount of charge they have. Those guys are the ones that encouraged me to get a battery analyzer for my own use so I could see what is really going on in the 3BGS and to help me learn how to balance and tune the system.

I drove an electric golf cart type of vehicle for several years at work. And I also had for several years an electric lawn mower called a GE Electrak. And guess what? Both of them had a simple volt meter that showed when it was time to recharge the batteries.

I understand what you mean about voltage not being a good indicator of how much energy is in a battery. A badly sulfated battery can have a high voltage reading but no real energy storage capacity. But for good batteries of reasonable size the voltage level is a pretty good indicator of the charge in the battery.

Carroll
__________________
Just because someone disagrees with you does NOT make them your enemy. We can disagree without attacking someone. This means YOU especially BroMikey.
#4462
01-01-2019, 05:05 PM
 bistander Gold Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 1,698
Yep

Quote:
 Originally Posted by citfta Happy New Year Bistander, Dave was keeping the discussion simple for those that don't have advantaged knowledge about batteries. He and Matt and I all have battery analyzers to keep check on what our batteries are actually doing and the amount of charge they have. Those guys are the ones that encouraged me to get a battery analyzer for my own use so I could see what is really going on in the 3BGS and to help me learn how to balance and tune the system. I drove an electric golf cart type of vehicle for several years at work. And I also had for several years an electric lawn mower called a GE Electrak. And guess what? Both of them had a simple volt meter that showed when it was time to recharge the batteries. I understand what you mean about voltage not being a good indicator of how much energy is in a battery. A badly sulfated battery can have a high voltage reading but no real energy storage capacity. But for good batteries of reasonable size the voltage level is a pretty good indicator of the charge in the battery. Carroll
Hi citfta,

Yep, one of the B.U. lessons does cover voltmeter SOC meters. They are crude and give a gross indication at best, but are useful on the likes of golf carts and better than nothing. What is very wrong is, as I have actually seen here, a member measures 12.65V compared to 12.64V and claims an increase in energy and "proof" of over unity. Performance claims of systems need to be validated with data from accurate instruments used correctly. Sticking a voltmeter across a battery for energy doesn't yield that. Turion should not perpetuate that method, IMO.

Regards,

bi
__________________

#4463
01-01-2019, 05:52 PM
 Turion Gold Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,463
bi,
Once again you want to argue semantics instead of dealing with the CONCEPT I was attempting to explain. But this time you are agreeing with me and don’t even realize it. Here is what I said:
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion First, let’s look at what we’ve been taught. We put a volt meter on a battery to measure how much energy is contained in it.... What if the meter is actually measuring the (potential) DIFFERENCE between the positive and negative side of the battery.
You are so quick to try and jump on anything I say to try to discredit my posts that you miss the meaning. Or is that your purpose? To discredit any small part you can so that the whole will be ignored? What is it you think you gain by these tactics? Do you think I will quit? LOL.
__________________
—Bernhard Haisch, Astrophysicist
#4464
01-01-2019, 06:25 PM
 bistander Gold Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 1,698
Potential difference

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion bi, Once again you want to argue semantics instead of dealing with the CONCEPT I was attempting to explain. But this time you are agreeing with me and don’t even realize it. Here is what I said: You are so quick to try and jump on anything I say to try to discredit my posts that you miss the meaning. Or is that your purpose? To discredit any small part you can so that the whole will be ignored? What is it you think you gain by these tactics? Do you think I will quit? LOL.
Turion,

I saw that. I read the entire post. There are other statements I disagree with but was going to keep it short and civil.

To start, you refer to measuring voltage to determine energy as common and correct, like saying "we've been taught". True, later you do say voltage is potential difference.

*Actually you said:
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion ... What if the meter is actually measuring the (potential) DIFFERENCE between the positive and negative side of the battery. ...
"What if"... Like the voltmeter isn't reading potential difference.

My purpose was to give the readers a resource (Battery University website) to learn about batteries and proper measurements.

Citfta claims you have a good battery analyzer. I'd be interested in seeing what that is. I've mentioned before that I've tested thousands of batteries and the only really true, 100% accurate method of determining energy is Coulomb counting/voltage integration over time. These days there are fairly inexpensive watt hour meters available which do a pretty good job at this, like I used on my tests of your single battery dual converter system.

Regards,

bi
__________________

Last edited by bistander; 01-01-2019 at 07:19 PM. Reason: Added quote and comment
#4465
01-01-2019, 08:04 PM
 Turion Gold Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,463
Tools

bi,
Citfta, Matt and I all have the same battery analyzer and scope. Mine are over at my old house as I have not moved much of my shop over yet. Still remodeling the big empty room at the new place to turn it into a shop, along with about a thousand other projects, so I couldn’t tell you the make and model of that battery analyzer. I do know Matt had access to a very expensive one for a time, and did a lot of testing with it also.

So far you have managed, once again, to keep the discussion focused on semantics rather than concepts. Good job.
__________________
—Bernhard Haisch, Astrophysicist
#4466
01-01-2019, 08:21 PM
 bistander Gold Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 1,698
Thanks

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion ... So far you have managed, once again, to keep the discussion focused on semantics rather than concepts. Good job.
When one does not understand the terminology and details, good bet he doesn't know the correct concepts. I posted a resource where readers could learn the correct concepts as well as proper semantics. What's wrong with that?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion ... Class dismissed
Regards,

bi
__________________

#4467
01-02-2019, 12:31 AM
 Turion Gold Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,463
Lesson

Nothing would be wrong with that if you were trying to be helpful, but you are not. You know nothing about this stuff, have yet to even build a proper circuit to test it, yet assume your vast experience in other areas qualifies you to make judgements in this area. It doesn’t. You continue to argue semantics because it is all you DO know. You haven’t made a single cronstructive contribution to what we have shared and continue to insist it is our responsibility to spoon feed you everything because you are unwilling to invest the time and resources to discover anything on your own. If this is such a worthless project why are you here day after day claiming we are fakes and frauds? Why not just go on your way and invest your valuable time elsewhere? Probably because someone is paying you to discredit us and sidetrack this thread. That won’t happen though. Too many people have seen positive results, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
__________________
—Bernhard Haisch, Astrophysicist
#4468
01-02-2019, 02:32 AM
 bistander Gold Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 1,698
Spoonfeed?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Turion Nothing would be wrong with that if you were trying to be helpful, but you are not. You know nothing about this stuff, have yet to even build a proper circuit to test it, yet assume your vast experience in other areas qualifies you to make judgements in this area. It doesn’t. You continue to argue semantics because it is all you DO know. You haven’t made a single cronstructive contribution to what we have shared and continue to insist it is our responsibility to spoon feed you everything because you are unwilling to invest the time and resources to discover anything on your own. If this is such a worthless project why are you here day after day claiming we are fakes and frauds? Why not just go on your way and invest your valuable time elsewhere? Probably because someone is paying you to discredit us and sidetrack this thread. That won’t happen though. Too many people have seen positive results, and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Turion,

Asking for proof of claim is not insisting on being spoonfed. And why is posting facts, references to the science and asking reasonable questions not helpful? But instead of engaging me and discussing the concepts, you go on these rants. I have a great deal of experience in exactly the types of systems you're doing. You fail to recognize that and refuse the help I offer.

Why have none of these "positive results seen by too many people" been posted in a fashion where we can examine the methods and data? Show me one other who has built and documented your single battery dual converter system? I think I'm the only one. Isn't that helpful? Wasn't I helpful when another member asked about converters? Didn't I even help Matt understand better those converters?

Face it. You get hurt because the correct explanations and facts I post often contradict what you have posted. You could learn from that but instead you attack me. You should appreciate me.

And yes, bring your iceberg into port and show us more than the tip.

Regards,

bi
__________________

#4469
01-02-2019, 11:03 AM
 Matthew Jones Platinum Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 2,741
Quote:
 Originally Posted by axxelxavier You mention: „I have many Fet controlled 3 battery switchers that run from an arduino”. How did you managed to solve the common ground issue, for both voltage readings and for switching connections? Best regards, and A HAPPY NEW YEAR! Teodor
So the cheapest way to go is to localize every battery with the smallest Arduino you can get away with, which would be something like a ADA Trinket, or maybe just a little bigger, but something along that line.
It takes 6 fets per battery to be able to put the battery in any position in the system. You need 2 high side fets and 4 low side. You can do this simply with all the same parts for both low side and high side.
Now the little arduino's will interface to one big arduino central to the system and they will talk via SPI or I2c through a digital isolator. The Central Arduino will make the conclusions on what needs done based on the batteries current position and voltage.

The whole thing is a big undertaking. Expensive too, but its the only way your going to get everything under total automation.

You can also go the isolated ADC route if your real good with the arduino. The reason I would not use them is I don't believe there are Libraries that support it but there are plenty of libraries for TI adc's just not this isolated version. So you have to be able to write a library in C to run and interface that ADC.
https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...3-1-ND/7688273

The schematic of mine is in a notebook so I have to convert it. Make sure you are up to the task.

If you wanna try on your own you'll need:

To be able to interface between 2 Arduino independent of each other through a digital Isolator. You will find the needed info on the arduino forum.
You'll need to be able to read voltages from a battery with an ADC from the arduino.
I can give the switching pattern and parts. You have to build a board for each battery.

Basically what happens is each board can hook to 1 of 3 positions. The high rail, the low side rail or resting. Each board is powered locally by the battery its attached too, and again each battery has its own control system and measurement system, a master controller manages up to 16 batteries in the system and that can be expanded radically.

Let me know if your interested.

Matt
__________________
ADD BROMIKEY TO YOUR IGNORE LIST He is a saboteur bent on the systematic distraction of every good topic on this forum and since he has been here most working threads have shut down. He is the enemy. If you have blocked him already add this to your signature and encourage others to block him as well. His onslaught of rambling in large text and his constant attempts to misinform at the excuse of being stupid should no longer be tolerated.

USER CP/Ignore list.

Last edited by Matthew Jones; 01-02-2019 at 11:10 AM.
#4470
01-02-2019, 12:55 PM
 axxelxavier Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 70
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Matthew Jones So the cheapest way to go is to localize every battery with the smallest Arduino you can get away with
I already have some Arduino Nano's laying around, and I'm going to try with those first.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Matthew Jones It takes 6 fets per battery to be able to put the battery in any position in the system. You need 2 high side fets and 4 low side. You can do this simply with all the same parts for both low side and high side.
Do you have a schematic on this? I would like to try to use mosfets, instead of relays...

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Matthew Jones The whole thing is a big undertaking. Expensive too, but its the only way your going to get everything under total automation.
I already spended big bucks on my trials, not to mention all boards who end up in „magic smoke”. That's the price of knowledge, I suppose...
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Matthew Jones The schematic of mine is in a notebook so I have to convert it. Make sure you are up to the task. If you wanna try on your own you'll need: To be able to interface between 2 Arduino independent of each other through a digital Isolator. You will find the needed info on the arduino forum. You'll need to be able to read voltages from a battery with an ADC from the arduino. I can give the switching pattern and parts. You have to build a board for each battery. Basically what happens is each board can hook to 1 of 3 positions. The high rail, the low side rail or resting. Each board is powered locally by the battery its attached too, and again each battery has its own control system and measurement system, a master controller manages up to 16 batteries in the system and that can be expanded radically. Let me know if your interested. Matt
For sure, I am VERY interested. At the beginning, I had the same idea as yours, to make local boards for controlling each battery, but my lack of information about electronics - to be more specific, about how to control those local Arduino's with a central one, make me stop.
My dream is to make an autonomous switching system, powered by each battery itself, with a small current draw.
There are techniques for low power consumption in Arduino which I already tested, and I intend to combine this with low power current draw switching of n-mosfets.
In the meantime, I will learn about arduino's i2c communication and digital isolators.
Best regards,
Teodor
__________________

Last edited by axxelxavier; 01-02-2019 at 02:50 PM.

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