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  #4351  
Old 11-22-2018, 07:30 PM
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John,
That was over 40 years ago as I recall. Nothing new. And just because you can measure electricity accurately doesn’t mean you understand how it works. You don’t. Anybody who dismisses the importance of what we have shown with the 3 battery setup has completely missed the boat. But it is under sale and gaining speed every single day. You guys are going to be left so far behind it’s not even funny. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.
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  #4352  
Old 11-22-2018, 09:37 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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Incredible accuracy.

The Kibble balance avoids the problems of measuring B and L with a second calibration step. The same wire (in practice, a coil of wire) is moved through the same magnetic field at a known speed v. By Faraday's law of induction, a potential difference U is generated across the ends of the wire, which equals BLv. Thus

U=BLv.
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  #4353  
Old 11-23-2018, 09:47 AM
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Dave, I thought you'd be happy if someone else was building the generator?

cheers,
Mario
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  #4354  
Old 11-23-2018, 02:22 PM
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Building

I am happy you are building it. Anything I can do to help, let me know. Best of luck to you.
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  #4355  
Old 11-27-2018, 05:29 PM
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Single battery circuit

To all,
Will setup the 3BGS today while looking at the SBC single battery circuit Dave posted.

Will try something Dave said per email. Want to try something with 3BGS first before trying the SBC on my work bench.

Only have one boost module left over from this summer's testing. Smoked my other one during that time.

Not wanting to keep this thread alive or create any new interest here. Just thought to drop some lines and say I'm still having coffee mornings and thinking about this system.

wantomake
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  #4356  
Old 11-27-2018, 10:22 PM
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Wrong battery again

Update.
Did try the 3BGS setup as per Dave's email today. Tried my old lithium battery packs I built, but the packs sit too long and lost too much amperage. Therefore will move three marine batteries over to try.

Nothing new to post but still trying to get back to testing and such.

wantomake
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  #4357  
Old 11-28-2018, 01:24 AM
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hi all. just wanted to add something. just an opinion, but i think it's important to remember that a load and a charge battery in series is always a voltage splitting combination. motors with load/no load are pushing back on the current flow,proper bemf, with varying force and batteries have varying levels of resistance depending on degree of sulfation,state of charge etc. i've often wondered if this is why 3bgs and derivative systems are hard to keep in balance, because the voltage across the motor or battery will fluctuate due to each other.
hopefully i'm not being captain obvious and a goose, but it seems like a critical aspect to me.
cheers.
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  #4358  
Old 11-28-2018, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by voltan View Post
hi all. just wanted to add something. just an opinion, but i think it's important to remember that a load and a charge battery in series is always a voltage splitting combination. motors with load/no load are pushing back on the current flow,proper bemf, with varying force and batteries have varying levels of resistance depending on degree of sulfation,state of charge etc. i've often wondered if this is why 3bgs and derivative systems are hard to keep in balance, because the voltage across the motor or battery will fluctuate due to each other.
hopefully i'm not being captain obvious and a goose, but it seems like a critical aspect to me.
cheers.
Voltan,

You are very correct. Dave has said the same thing many times and my own experience backs that up. You can't just throw something together and expect to get the same results Dave and several of the rest of us have gotten. You have to take the time to study and learn the system and that will lead you to learning how to keep everything in balance. If you don't do that you will get poor results. And it doesn't hurt to be reminded of that from time to time. Thanks for your thoughts.

Carroll
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  #4359  
Old 11-28-2018, 02:08 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Balance

Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
Voltan,

You are very correct. Dave has said the same thing many times and my own experience backs that up. You can't just throw something together and expect to get the same results Dave and several of the rest of us have gotten. You have to take the time to study and learn the system and that will lead you to learning how to keep everything in balance. If you don't do that you will get poor results. And it doesn't hurt to be reminded of that from time to time. Thanks for your thoughts.

Carroll
Hello citfta,

First. Just a simple question. No drama from others, if you know what I mean.

To me, balance means or implies adjusting or tuning. When I built the single battery, 2 boost converter circuit and tested it, it did require tuning. With it, I had the 2 boost modules, each with adjustment and the load resistance value which I could choose. Balance also infers a process of getting some parameters within a certain relationship. With the system which I built this was simply stability; that is to stop the hunting. It was a feedback system and exhibited classic feedback symptoms.

As I understand the basic 3bgs system, there is no tunable converters and the only way I can see to balance the system is to adjust the load. Is that correct? And then, because the load is not fedback to the input, stability should not be a big issue. So what parameters do you monitor to balance the system and how would that be done in practice where you have less control on the load?

Thanks,

bi
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  #4360  
Old 11-28-2018, 02:29 PM
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Load

bi,
No drama. You asked a reasonable question and I will give you a reasonable answer. This has all been posted before, but it never hurts to remind people.

First, you have to remember that loads cannot be more than the C-20 rating oh the batteries. So you begin with the motor as the load on the primaries, as it is running between the positives. Put a small load on battery 3. You will notice that the motor speeds up because more amps are being pulled THROUGH the motor. . Wait five minutes. If nothing happens, put another small load on battery 3 and wait five minutes. If nothing happens continue to do this until the desired effect takes place.

The desired effect you are looking for is this...the motor immediately speeds up when you put the load on battery three, but if you have the system in BALANCE, within five minutes it will suddenly, for no apparent reason, speed up again. Ten years ago when I talked about this I said when this happens you are in the zone and you will get longer run times. But resonance is what is happening.

Remember,without the Matt motor you have NO real charging of battery 3 because it is not being pulsed the way it should be, so you won’t get extended run times anyway.
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  #4361  
Old 11-28-2018, 02:37 PM
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Hello bi,

What I found was as you have stated the most important part of the system is the load on the motor. As Dave has said many times most of the replicators that failed tried to do too much for the size of the batteries they were using. As you well know batteries will only take a charge at a certain rate determined by the condition of the battery and the capacity of the battery. Trying to force too much charge into the battery that is being charged will only result in more losses.

And as we also proved to ourselves many times, pulse charging the battery is a more efficient way to get charge back into the battery. In fact I just recently bought a commercial charger that uses pulse charging to condition and recharge the battery. The modified Matt motor gives us the pulse charging going to battery 3.

By keeping your load low and pulse charging battery 3 you WILL get longer run times than if you only ran that same load on the 3 batteries connected in parallel. As battery 3 gets charged then you swap it with the lower charged battery of the other two. And you keep doing that, recycling the energy from the batteries by charging one while discharging two. Of course the system will eventually run down so you need some means of recharging the batteries when that time comes.

This is NOT an overunity system. It is just a much more efficient way to use the power in batteries. Dave and I have a friend that used to live in Tennessee. He was living totally off the grid. He was using solar power to keep his storage batteries charged. I visited him and saw his system and very small home. When he started using the 3BGS he was able to run his loads much longer by recycling some of the energy into recharging the battery in the 3rd position. He gave very high praises to Dave and the 3BGS because it allowed him to do more with the system he had. Most of the time his loads were not pulse charging battery 3 but he still got more run time from his batteries.

So the "secret" to the 3BGS is to keep your load small in comparison to the battery size. If possible pulse charge battery 3. And finally you have to learn when is the best time to swap the batteries. And all of this takes time to learn. Some extra batteries also help because then you can allow them to rest between charging and discharging. This also helps to make the system more efficient.

Respectfully,
Carroll

PS:I see Dave was posting the same time I was.
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  #4362  
Old 11-28-2018, 03:53 PM
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Balance

Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
... When he started using the 3BGS he was able to run his loads much longer by recycling some of the energy into recharging the battery in the 3rd position. He gave very high praises to Dave and the 3BGS because it allowed him to do more with the system he had. Most of the time his loads were not pulse charging battery 3 but he still got more run time from his batteries.
...
Thanks citfta and Turion,

citfta,

Did this guy ever measure or quantify his results? These successes always appear subjective to me. The restrictions like less than the 20 hour rate and battery swaps and rest periods mean a controlled test would require weeks with close attention. Otherwise, the fact that the 3bgs has significantly more batteries will yield longer run times not to mention the continual attention being a benefit to the 3bgs.

Back to the balance question, or answer, it looks like sizing the 3bgs system for the load is the only way. That doesn't seem practical for a home power system where the load is constantly changing. The primary purpose of batteries on home solar installations is to buffer or contend with varying loads, like night to day, or refrigerator or pumps cycling. So wouldn't the balanced 3gbs installation into an existing battery assisted home solar PV system double or triple the total battery count for the home owner?

citfta, are you using a 3bgs for anything useful? Is anybody here doing so?

You can take or leave it, but I've been involved with energy conversion and energy storage for 40 years. I've tested thousands of batteries and hundreds of motors and generators. I really like the modern Lithium based batteries and really hate the lead acid. I have no desire to increase the amount of lead acid on my property. In all of the testing on lead acid which I've done or studied, I've never seen more than a temporary improvement from pulse charging and never any indication of "running between positives" as beneficial. Just stating reasons that I'm not interested in building the 3bgs, as you always tell me to do. The only quantitative controlled test which I've seen does not support your 3bgs claims. Of course Turion objects to that test. All this time, has no one else instrumented and recorded data from a controlled 3bgs test?

Oh well, back to other stuff. Carry on.

bi
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  #4363  
Old 11-28-2018, 06:15 PM
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Tests

bi,
I have run literally HUNDREDS of tests over the last ten years, and have records of all of them in my notebooks. I haven’t taken the time to do a video of that testing, because as YOU said, it would take DAYS to record the entire test, and then people are going to dispute my results anyway.

The test which showed no positive results that you are referring to was a joke. We told him several times that what he was doing was NOT going to elicit positive results. For the three battery system to show ANY extended run times with an off the shelf motor (which is what I was initially using) the system MUST be tuned. I said that at the VERY BEGINNING of the thread. Did he tune the system? No, he did not. Did he use large batteries? No, he did not. When I first started I was using smaller batteries and a stock motor. My results were hit and miss. And I was pretty experienced at tuning the system. It all came down to the specific batteries used.

With the addition of the Matt motor, the frequency of having successful runs went way up. But STILL there were times when I just couldn’t get it. With the addition of the boost module the success rate became like 98%. There are STILL times it won’t work and I have to switch out one or more of the batteries to be successful.

So when some guy slaps together a stock motor with whatever batteries he has lying around, and has no boost module in the circuit, I can pretty much guarantee he is going to fail to see any positive results. And THAT is the “definitive” test of this system you are standing by? Is that REAL research? If you want to test whether something works or not you actually have to REPLICATE the original device.

I offered to send you a motor and wire to rewind it with FOR FREE so you could test the system with the correct components and you declined. To ME that speaks volumes about your desire to know the truth about this setup. You want everything handed to you and have NO desire to do any serious research on your own. So you will get the answers you deserve.
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  #4364  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:33 PM
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Changed mind

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Originally Posted by wantomake View Post
Update.
Did try the 3BGS setup as per Dave's email today. Tried my old lithium battery packs I built, but the packs sit too long and lost too much amperage. Therefore will move three marine batteries over to try.

Nothing new to post but still trying to get back to testing and such.

wantomake
I changed my mind. No more moving marine batteries around.

I did build and test Dave and Matt's 3BGS with boosters and got the system balanced to retain same voltage during test runs. Saw it with my eyes and I know it works.

I did build somewhat of a version of Dave's upright generator and it did SUUL. That means it does indeed exist.

I only failed to join the two together in one unit. I know it would've been a wondrous thing to feel, see, and experience.

But my disease "if I take it all apart and build it bigger/better" took over. So all is dismantled and just collecting dust. What a shame.

No I'm not starting all over again. I followed directly the plan, took advice while driving Dave/Matt crazy, spent resources and put in the time.

Now I wonder what could have been with lots of time, knowledge, decent shop that doesn't leak rain water, monies, oh and just a little more love of the adventure of seeing Free Energy made real.

wantomake
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Last edited by wantomake; 11-28-2018 at 07:35 PM.
  #4365  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:43 PM
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Data

Wantomake,
The fact that you have built it and seen it work is not going to be enough for bi. He wants hard data, which you have not provided. Therefore, you do not know for sure whether it works or not. Because you haven't PROVED it to him.

But that's ok. Just keep on doing what you are doing and that will be your reward.
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  #4366  
Old 11-28-2018, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Thanks citfta and Turion,

citfta,

Did this guy ever measure or quantify his results? These successes always appear subjective to me. The restrictions like less than the 20 hour rate and battery swaps and rest periods mean a controlled test would require weeks with close attention. Otherwise, the fact that the 3bgs has significantly more batteries will yield longer run times not to mention the continual attention being a benefit to the 3bgs.

Back to the balance question, or answer, it looks like sizing the 3bgs system for the load is the only way. That doesn't seem practical for a home power system where the load is constantly changing. The primary purpose of batteries on home solar installations is to buffer or contend with varying loads, like night to day, or refrigerator or pumps cycling. So wouldn't the balanced 3gbs installation into an existing battery assisted home solar PV system double or triple the total battery count for the home owner?

citfta, are you using a 3bgs for anything useful? Is anybody here doing so?

You can take or leave it, but I've been involved with energy conversion and energy storage for 40 years. I've tested thousands of batteries and hundreds of motors and generators. I really like the modern Lithium based batteries and really hate the lead acid. I have no desire to increase the amount of lead acid on my property. In all of the testing on lead acid which I've done or studied, I've never seen more than a temporary improvement from pulse charging and never any indication of "running between positives" as beneficial. Just stating reasons that I'm not interested in building the 3bgs, as you always tell me to do. The only quantitative controlled test which I've seen does not support your 3bgs claims. Of course Turion objects to that test. All this time, has no one else instrumented and recorded data from a controlled 3bgs test?

Oh well, back to other stuff. Carry on.

bi
Hello again,

I have highlighted again some areas you asked about. The guy in Tennessee conducted many many tests on his system. He is a single guy who only worked as a truck driver when he wanted to. The rest of the time he spent doing research on alternative energy. Primarily the 3BGS and various kinds of generators to use with the 3BGS system. I don't have any of the results of his tests but I think some of them are buried in this thread somewhere. You would have to look back in probably the first half of this thread to find those results. But he was very convinced that he got longer run times using the 3BGS.

You are correct that this is not a practical system for most people to use to power their home. It just takes too much attention and time to keep everything in balance and working correctly. But there are very many things that are not practical. That doesn't mean they don't work! It is certainly possible to run your home by using steam power to turn a generator. And that of course will work. But for most people that is just not practical or worth the trouble. But as far as the loads constantly changing that can be dealt with. That is just a simple engineering problem that can be met several ways. But again all that is not practical.

For those reasons listed above, no I am not using the 3BGS for anything useful. But I have proven to myself that it does work. Saying something is not practical is not the same as saying it doesn't work. If nothing else the 3BGS is a great learning experiment. And if you were living off the grid it could very well mean the difference between success and failure at providing your own source of power.

I am surprised you did not see any benefit from pulse charging batteries. This method of charging lead acid batteries has been around a while. But the frequency of the pulses and the voltage and current of them all play a part in the success or failure of the charging process. The commercial charger I have uses a microprocessor to monitor the battery and adjust the pulses accordingly.

I have been very busy with family matters for several months now. I am hoping to get some time to work with the boost circuit here in the hopefully near future. IF I get time to work on that I will provide all the data I can about what I find. I know Matt and Dave personally. I know what they have told me that I have had time to verify has been true.

It is fine that you don't want to spend time on the 3BGS. But it is certainly NOT fine that you want to keep claiming it doesn't work when you haven't tried it.

I understand what you are saying about the newer Lithium base batteries. But they have their problems also. I use them regularly in my RC airplanes. The power to weight ratio is amazing. But, I have never had a lead acid battery catch fire while in operation. And I have personally had that happen with one of my Lithium batteries. The plane took off just fine and at about 100 feet in the air there was a sudden explosion and the plane came tumbling down. The battery was blown out to the plane and landed on the ground. And as you are probably aware the fire of a burning Lithium battery is very hard to put out as they burn so hot. Of course it eventually burned up. I only charge mine in a special fireproof bag made just for that purpose. Any source of stored energy has the potential to be dangerous.

Respectfully,
Carroll
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  #4367  
Old 11-28-2018, 08:37 PM
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Ignore list

The reason I don't care what anyone post here is simple. I deal with unbelief all the time. The "ignore list" is great to use. I get no benefit from reading anything from the ones that don't build or want to see a system work. As a seasoned and tried missionary, I see a great deal of unbelief because when people don't see it then it's not real. I've seen spiritual powers-that-be and know how they kill, steal, and destroy but I know the Name of Jesus does defeat them. So the powers-that-be in this FE world are easy to see and ignore.
Their words and methods never ever change.

Data and numbers are good if that helps someone. Then tptb will say you measured wrong or that's the incorrect raw data. Where does it stop? It never will.

Tptb from FE or spiritual, can't tell me what I've seen isn't real. Because I've seen both!!!

What a shame for them.
wantomake
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  #4368  
Old 11-28-2018, 10:58 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Don't think I said that

Quote:
Originally Posted by citfta View Post
I am surprised you did not see any benefit from pulse charging batteries. ... <snip>
...
It is fine that you don't want to spend time on the 3BGS. But it is certainly NOT fine that you want to keep claiming it doesn't work when you haven't tried it.
...
Hi citfta,

I said I saw some temporary improvement from pulsing. That was confined to batteries which likely suffered from sulfation. There may be some benefit to healthy batteries in longevity but in the lab we could find no performance improvement. Our test we're not comprehensive and happened about 20 years ago. I have not seen published scientific literature confirmation. And for years I received battery industry journals and periodicals. But not here to argue that. BTW, do you find it odd that Turion insists on the Matt modded motor and a boost converter when the converter contains a diode which blocks any "charge" pulse going to the battery from the motor?

And I don't think you find me saying that the 3bgs does not work. Maybe I slipped once and said that but I don't think so. What I have said is there is no valid proof that it is better than using batteries in the conventional manner. And that I have no interest in building a 3bgs. You'll notice the system I did build and test used a single battery. I thought it provided a clean demonstration.

Actually, I rarely claim something doesn't work. What I do is ask for data and proof of the claims made about the thing.

Been nice,

bi
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  #4369  
Old 11-28-2018, 11:04 PM
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How can the boost module block the charge impulse from the motor when the motor is running between the OUTPUT of the boost module and the battery. If you are running it any other way,no wonder you can’t get positive results.
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  #4370  
Old 11-29-2018, 12:39 AM
bistander bistander is offline
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Which battery

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How can the boost module block the charge impulse from the motor when the motor is running between the OUTPUT of the boost module and the battery. If you are running it any other way,no wonder you can’t get positive results.
That battery is being charged by the motor running current. The magic pulse from the Matt modded motor is supposed to go to the source battery, isn't it?

A diagram would help.
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Old 11-29-2018, 01:01 AM
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Diagram?

SSUPPOSEDLY you already built this from previously (dozens of times) posted diagrams, yet you do not seem to know how it goes together. In BOTH the 3 battery circuit and the single battery circuit the output of the boost goes to the positive of the motor and the negative of the motor goes to battery 3 in the 3 battery setup or to the positive of the primary in the single battery setup. In ZERO diagrams have I shown the output of the motor going to the boost converter.

There are SONE diagrams that show a SECOND boost converter running directly off battery 3, but that’s s whole different story.
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  #4372  
Old 11-29-2018, 01:42 AM
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Email

Dave I sent you an email about the 3BGS diagram. Did you receive it?

wantomake
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Last edited by wantomake; 11-29-2018 at 01:45 AM.
  #4373  
Old 11-29-2018, 02:17 AM
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E mail

No. I didn’t get an email from you.
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  #4374  
Old 11-29-2018, 03:09 AM
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Resent

Sorry I resent the email. IPhone doesn't send email sometimes.
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  #4375  
Old 11-29-2018, 03:17 AM
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Circuits

Here are the two circuits I am working with.
Attached Images
File Type: png 2Advanced 3 Bttery system..png (119.0 KB, 161 views)
File Type: png Single Batery Circuit.png (18.2 KB, 81 views)
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  #4376  
Old 11-29-2018, 12:55 PM
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Circuits

Thanks Dave,
Now I see what you referred to in the first email.

Time to think over nuked cup of coffee.
wantomake
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  #4377  
Old 11-29-2018, 01:48 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Pulse

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Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Here are the two circuits I am working with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
That battery is being charged by the motor running current. The magic pulse from the Matt modded motor is supposed to go to the source battery, isn't it?

A diagram would help.
Thanks.


3BGS with BOOST CONVERTER

So the current flows out of the converter output + into the motor +. Then it flows out of motor - into battery C +. Current will flow from battery C - into battery B -. Because current flows from + to - inside battery C, it charges battery C.

The magic pulse from the Matt modded motor flows the opposite way, out of the motor + into the + source terminal, which is usually a battery which will accept the pulse. However in this case, the motor + is connected to converter output +. There is a diode inside the converter which blocks current from flowing in this direction. The result is that this pulse never reaches the source battery (B) but instead increases the converter output capacitor charge, which is inconsequential.

bi
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Old 11-29-2018, 02:35 PM
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Charging

I'm so glad that you know everything about how this system works.
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  #4379  
Old 11-29-2018, 02:53 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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You're welcome

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I'm so glad that you know everything about how this system works.
It is just circuit analysis.
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  #4380  
Old 11-29-2018, 03:30 PM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Analysis

Unfortunately, your analysis is incorrect. You have already stated that both current and voltage go from the motor to battery 3. Because this is a PULSE motor with a mechanically built in off and on time, the 3rd battery receives a PULSE of current and voltage from the motor. Since the boost module sets the voltage, what is hitting battery 3 is two volts higher than the battery standing voltage at whatever current comes out of the motor. THAT is the “magic pulse” the third battery gets, just like it would from a store bought battery charger.


The boost module does NOT eliminate this effect as you claim. If you don’t even understand how this system works, how can you “claim” that it doesn’t do what we say it does? Because SOME of the energy sent into the motor is NOT consumed by the motor, but passed right THRIUGH it to the 3rd battery, charging it, you can get extended run times from this setup by rotating the batteries. PERIOD

As for your statement that this is insignificant because you can’t run your house on this system. You are correct. You cannot. We never said you could. We gave this away to get people to think outside the box and understand some basic principles of operation. Those principles CAN be used to build a system that WILL run your house if you really understand what is going on with this basic system. We have talked about ALL the needed components for that system on this and the basic free energy device thread. And that’s all we are giving away.
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“Advances are made by answering questions. Discoveries are made by questioning answers.”
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Last edited by Turion; 11-29-2018 at 04:19 PM.
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