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  #4291  
Old 11-09-2018, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wantomake View Post
Geoffrey,
Looks very interesting and should be more interested in this it would seem.

Just drinking some hot coffee while reading your website. Many thoughts and questions indeed. Thanks for posting here.

I want to get restarted here but stopped to evaluate which way to proceed. I stopped building this pass summer on the upright generator. Want to learn more about battery switching technology and the benefits.

Anyhow time to refresh the coffee and get breakfast on the stove,
wantomake
I've received the switching board and have a design for setting up the relay's in the 3 bgs configuration.

The unboxing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oyQt3uMv9k
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  #4292  
Old 11-11-2018, 01:29 PM
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Looks interesting

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Originally Posted by Majestic81 View Post
I've received the switching board and have a design for setting up the relay's in the 3 bgs configuration.

The unboxing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oyQt3uMv9k
Congratulations,
It's a good thing to get new tech in the mail. Can't wait to see your build and the switching by the relay board.

So you will be using the 3BGS configuration? Hope all testing goes well, keep us informed if possible.

wantomake
Coffee needs nuked.
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  #4293  
Old 11-13-2018, 06:22 AM
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Single battery circuit

Has ANYONE built the single battery circuit we posted and compared run times to just running the motor straight off the battery?
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  #4294  
Old 11-13-2018, 08:51 AM
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Hi Dave. I’d be keen to have a go at that. It’s multiple battery banks that make Tesla switch/3bgs systems impractical for electric cars, bikes, planes etc.
Can you post the page number or date or if it was fairly recent I’m happy to look for it. I was thinking about using caps with a brushless ac motor like in the pic recently. Switches 1 and 2 close, the motor coil is energised for one stroke, then 1and 2 open. 3 and 4 close, energising the motor coil for one stroke with the current reversed. 3 stays closed, 4 opens and 1 closes with a brief overlap to recharge the source battery. 3 opens, 1 stays closed, 2 closes and repeat. The diodes are the built in to most semiconductors ones or maybe add speedy diodes like fr302’s across the switches. They direct the switch off spikes to one cap at at a time provided the right switch opens first. maybe a booster could play a part as well. I haven’t checked it all over yet For flaws or conflicts. It’s a concept in its infancy. Okay, for a start it looks like the diodes on 1 and 3 would have to be blocked with additional diodes or some other way. And without a booster this still needs 24v to drive a12v motor, so no bulk weight saving over a 2bgs. For a mobile application a booster or 2 would be the big weight saver.
Cheers.
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File Type: jpg 7B0DF013-44A7-4B3D-BD07-C41F9A3F864A.jpg (225.9 KB, 43 views)
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Last edited by voltan; 11-13-2018 at 04:54 PM.
  #4295  
Old 11-13-2018, 01:56 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Single battery system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
If you have the stuff, give this a shot. It's as CHEAP as you will get.
Post #3883, 7/13/2018
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  #4296  
Old 11-13-2018, 01:58 PM
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Single battery system

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Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Has ANYONE built the single battery circuit we posted and compared run times to just running the motor straight off the battery?
I did. Posted data.

bi
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  #4297  
Old 11-13-2018, 04:11 PM
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Data

So bi,
What is your honest evaluation of the potential of that circuit from the data you collected and do you see a way to move forward to get more out of it or scale it up?

What we see on the bench, good or bad, should influence the direction we take, so I am curious what direction you would go with this, based on what YOU have seen, not what I have seen.

What, if anything was positive about it and what was negative?
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  #4298  
Old 11-13-2018, 04:39 PM
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Cheers Dave. Page 130.
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  #4299  
Old 11-13-2018, 04:51 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Test results

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
So bi,
What is your honest evaluation of the potential of that circuit from the data you collected and do you see a way to move forward to get more out of it or scale it up?

What we see on the bench, good or bad, should influence the direction we take, so I am curious what direction you would go with this, based on what YOU have seen, not what I have seen.

What, if anything was positive about it and what was negative?
Turion,

I was attempting to be objective and completely unbiased so I just presented the data. With that it is easy for anyone to calculate system efficiency and draw their own conclusions, or suggest further investigation, which I would have, could still do, although the set-up has been torn down. At the time I did inquire of you what your results were, what the objective of the system was and what to do further. But you know how that discussion went.

I still feel it is in the best interest if I keep my opinions to myself and let the data stand. What do you think of my results (system efficiency)?

bi
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  #4300  
Old 11-14-2018, 01:14 AM
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Thoughts

Your data
Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post

Boost module 1
Input 12.11V, 5.27A, 63.8W
Output 27.67V, 1.99A, 55.06W, 86.3% efficient.

Boost Module 2
Input 12.4V, 1.28A, 15.7W
Output 14.13V, 1.01A, 14.27W, 90.9% efficient.

bi
Just looking at the data that you collected doesn't tell you anything about what is possible, or even exactly what is GOING ON with this system. That's why I asked for your opinion. All you really did was measure what is coming out of the two boost modules. As to the data, I think it's probably pretty close to what I would expect. I am usually getting close to 93% with my boost modules. I have some expensive ones that push that number up several % points, but that isn't important. With the little ones I put a couple in parallel so I get a LITTLE bit better efficiency, but like I said, that's not critical.

The only way to tell if you really HAVE something with this system is to run your modified motor connected to a load directly off the battery until it is run down, and then charge the battery back up and run it on this system. See which one lasts longer.

When I run this setup, I have a second motor shaft connected to the first, rectify the output of the second motor (as a generator) and measure watts out to a load. That's how I calculate which system gives me MORE output from the run time of a single battery.

All this simple circuit was designed to do was prove, with A SINGLE BATTERY that the energy does not HAVE to be consumed by the load. It CAN be reused. Now this little system is just proof of concept.

You will notice that boost module 1 is running in a conventional manner, which WASTES energy, but it is necessary for the purposes of this demonstration. Normally, I would NEVER run anything this way as it is so wasteful. I will also say that if you do not use the modified motor, the setup will NOT work, because the modified motor pulses the battery like a battery charger does. There is a pulsed input going into the second boost module, so there is a pulsed output coming out of it, even though the boost module itself pulses, it is at the wrong frequency, so the correct motor is necessary.

That's all this system was designed to do, give you a longer run time. Other systems are designed to do much more than that, but ya gotta start somewhere.
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  #4301  
Old 11-14-2018, 03:05 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Your data


Just looking at the data that you collected doesn't tell you anything about what is possible, or even exactly what is GOING ON with this system. That's why I asked for your opinion. All you really did was measure what is coming out of the two boost modules. ...
You just looked at the converter efficiency test I did to show Matt. Go a bit further and see two system tests. Both using battery power as input and load resistor power as output.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Here are data from most recent test.

Wattmeter on battery:
12.05V, 3.4A, 40.97W, 9.09Ah, 111.21Wh

Wattmeter on 50Ω load resistor:
18.31V, 0.33A, 6.1W, 0.885Ah, 15.3Wh



Regards,

bi
I ran that system for 3 hours. That took 333 watt hours from the battery. If I would have run a 6.1 watt load directly from the battery, it would have run for 54.6 hours.

And with a converter between the battery and motor, those pulses are blocked.

What's your opinion of the real data?

bi
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Last edited by bistander; 11-14-2018 at 03:08 AM.
  #4302  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:44 PM
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Single battery circuit results

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
Has ANYONE built the single battery circuit we posted and compared run times to just running the motor straight off the battery?
With system = 3 hours.

Straight from battery = 54.6 hours.

Just one test on one system. Not to be considered conclusive. Disappointed not to see anybody else running this test.

bi
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  #4303  
Old 11-14-2018, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
I ran that system for 3 hours. That took 333 watt hours from the battery. If I would have run a 6.1 watt load directly from the battery, it would have run for 54.6 hours.

And with a converter between the battery and motor, those pulses are blocked.

What's your opinion of the real data?

bi
Hi Bi,
Just wondering if you remember the pre-test resting voltage of the battery and the resting voltage of the battery after the test?

Matt mentioned in a post somewhere that the pulses from the motor are being captured by the output capacitors of the boost converter thereby decreasing the load on the battery a certain amount.

My thoughts on your data.
First, thanks for sharing.
There will be a certain amount of overhead to run the motor-generator.
The 50 ohm load was not letting enough current through to help overcome the overhead. The system was not in balance. Example, a load with a resistance of 3.72 ohm would allow 4.88 amps to flow to the battery which would balance with the output to boost 1 (assuming the motor-generator does not draw more current under an increased load). At that point the voltage on the battery will remain constant as the system would be in balance. For a little more clarity, lets move the connection of the second boost converter negative from the battery negative pole to the negative input to boost converter 1. Now place an amp meter between the battery negative and boost converter 1 (and now 2) negative. When the system is in balance, you will be running the load for free (in conventional terms) and the reading on that amp meter between the battery negative and the boost converter negative should read zero.

From my tests that Dave mentioned in post #4265, the meters are not showing the whole picture. There is less load on the battery than what appears to be drawn by the boost converter when running the load between two positive potentials. When I ran my tests the battery resting voltage returned to the pre-test voltage level or higher.

In this one battery circuit, the output of the boost converter goes to the positive of the motor and the negative of the motor goes back to the battery positive. The motor is running between two positive potentials. It is not going back to the battery negative so it will not be contributing to destroying the dipole of the battery. So what is happening with the power that was run through the motor and back to the battery positive? Since it is not connected to ground, it is a separate dc loop is it not?

How do we measure exactly what is going into/coming out of the battery when we are running between positive potentials? I'm not sure which is why I am asking. I suspect when running the load between two positive potentials in this setup, the energy used by the boost converter is to simply create a higher potential than the battery.
Thoughts anyone?


Cheers,
Alex
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  #4304  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:03 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Analysis

Hi hherby,

Thanks for chiming in. No, I don't have those battery resting (no-load or open circuit, I assume you mean) voltage readings.

Member dragon had a good take on it here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post
To me it looks like the battery is supplying 12.2 volts at 4.47 amps to the boost, 54.53 watts. The motor sees 20.6 volts at 2.18 amps or 44.9 watts. Around 83% efficiency. The 6.78 amp reading is deceptive because that is the combined current in that loop ( 4.47 + 2.18 = 6.65 amps ).

The output of the generator is 11.7 watts and the output of the 2nd boost is 10.57 watts, there we see around 90% efficiency. The battery is clamping the voltage at 12.2 with a .36 amp return or around 4.4 watts going back to the battery and 6.58 watts being dissipated by the load or 10.98 watts total.
He was using test 3 data, IIRC.

If you compare tests 3 and 4, you see input power of 54 and 41 watts for essentially the same output power to load resistor. Obviously everything was warmer when I took data readings in test 4 after running for three hours.

I recall attempting larger load (more output power) but input power increased substantially and some of the components were overloading or becoming unstable.

Regards,

bi
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  #4305  
Old 11-14-2018, 05:12 PM
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Battery measurements

Quote:
Originally Posted by hherby View Post
...
How do we measure exactly what is going into/coming out of the battery when we are running between positive potentials?
...

Cheers,
Alex
Simple. Put the wattmeter directly on the battery terminals and all other connections on the other side of the wattmeter. You can verify that with a scope also probed on battery terminals.
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  #4306  
Old 11-14-2018, 06:42 PM
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Re: Analysis

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Originally Posted by bistander View Post
I recall attempting larger load (more output power) but input power increased substantially and some of the components were overloading or becoming unstable.

Regards,

bi
Ok, so I take it your motor-generator draws more amps when you put a load on the output?

Cheers,
Alex
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  #4307  
Old 11-14-2018, 07:35 PM
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so it would seem

Quote:
Originally Posted by hherby View Post
Ok, so I take it your motor-generator draws more amps when you put a load on the output?

Cheers,
Alex
Yes, I would think so, but attempting to increase the load on the output only increased the input power and did not really increase measurable output power. I guess it just de-tuned the system (made it less efficient) and/or increased instability.

If you notice the photos, my motor and generator are identical conventional brush/commutator DC machines shaft coupled. When run from a conventional power supply, increasing the load power does increase the input power approximately proportionally.

Regards,

bi
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  #4308  
Old 11-14-2018, 11:39 PM
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Re: so it would seem

The one battery circuit was intended to use a low lenz generator that will not drag the motor down when a load is placed on it. Turion pointed out a few possibilities besides his own design such as MrAngusWangus, an interference generator similar to Al Francours design and another who's name escapes me at the moment that used disc shaped neos allowed to spin horizontally as it passes a generator coil where the back mmf would make the magnet spin instead of dragging down the rotor. There are more options like flux switching generators or kromrey convertors, g-field generators, Tewari RLG, homopolar generators and most likely others we have never heard about.

I don't know what to say about the difference between using a battery or a power supply as the source without having your setup on my bench. The experiment was intended for a battery to be used as the power source.

Another thing I have encountered is problems with boost converters that are unable to deliver current on higher loads. Depending on the controller chip and circuit used in the device, it may not be slope compensated for duty cycles above 50% causing instability like the UC3845 without slope compensation circuitry in the converters I have. The other problem is the small inductor cores which are used. These small torroid cores may be saturating at higher duty cycles or being current limited when approaching the saturation point. A serious load will require seriously powerful off the shelf boost converters or ones designed for optimal performance under the specific conditions you want them to perform under. There are a lot of parameters to consider in a design. Input voltage, output voltage, output current, voltage ripple, inductor current ripple, low DCR windings, low ESR caps, core power ratings to accommodate peak inductor current without saturating, using synchronous rectification vs schottkey diodes, low Rds on mosfets, impedance matching to the load etc. etc. etc.... Lots of research to do in boost convertor design let alone low lenz generator design. So much to do, so little time...

Cheers,
Alex
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  #4309  
Old 11-15-2018, 01:26 AM
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Battery

I used a battery for the system test. I only used the power supply to check out the motor and generator before wiring them into the circuit.

I don't buy into "low lenz". Give me good old efficiency. I think my little DC generator is as, or more, efficient than the machines I've seen used by 3BGS builders.

bi
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  #4310  
Old 11-15-2018, 05:26 AM
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Data

Your data would have been much more favorable had you used a pulse motor, but lets take a look at what actually went on in the circuit.

According to your data...
How many watt hours were consumed by the first boost module?
How many watt hours were consumed by the motor?
How many watt hours were consumed by the second boost module
How many watt hours were consumed by the "load"?
All FOUR of the above were run by the system were they not? So aren't all FOUR of these devices the "actual" load?

What is your total power consumption for the time you ran the system? If you are only going to look at what was used to run the "load" in the diagram, it was a total failure as a system. But what if this little circuit was only to show you the power that is available? What if there was a better way to utilize that power to run the load.
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  #4311  
Old 11-15-2018, 05:29 AM
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Da

bi,
Your data would have been much more favorable had you used a pulse motor, but lets take a look at what actually went on in the circuit.

According to your data...
How many watt hours were consumed by the first boost module?
How many watt hours were consumed by the motor?
How many watt hours were consumed by the second boost module
How many watt hours were consumed by the "load"?
All FOUR of the above were run by the system were they not? So aren't all FOUR of these devices the "actual" load?

What is your total power consumption for the time you ran the system? If you are only going to look at what was used to run the "load" in the diagram, it was a total failure as a system. But what if this little circuit was only to show you the power that is available? What if there was a better way to utilize that power to run the load.
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  #4312  
Old 11-15-2018, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
bi,
Your data would have been much more favorable had you used a pulse motor, but lets take a look at what actually went on in the circuit.

According to your data...
How many watt hours were consumed by the first boost module?
How many watt hours were consumed by the motor?
How many watt hours were consumed by the second boost module
How many watt hours were consumed by the "load"?
All FOUR of the above were run by the system were they not? So aren't all FOUR of these devices the "actual" load?

What is your total power consumption for the time you ran the system? If you are only going to look at what was used to run the "load" in the diagram, it was a total failure as a system. But what if this little circuit was only to show you the power that is available? What if there was a better way to utilize that power to run the load.
Hi turion,

that is one way to lose the fight, conservation of energy would say "energy was transformed" from battery>module>motor>gen>module>load all with less than 100% eff. resulting in "heating of the environment".
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  #4313  
Old 11-15-2018, 04:49 PM
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system

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricards View Post
Hi turion,

that is one way to lose the fight, conservation of energy would say "energy was transformed" from battery>module>motor>gen>module>load all with less than 100% eff. resulting in "heating of the environment".
Thank you ricards. Very good.

Turion,

(input) battery>module>motor>gen>module>load (output)

Energy is put into the system (from the outside world) by the battery. The load resistor represents energy delivered from the system to the outside world. Output of a system for efficiency is that power or energy doing useful or desired work outside the system. In this case we used a resistor for convenience so the work done was heating of my workshop. The load resistor could have been a lamp, or a fan, or a pump, or a coffee maker.

Some time ago I explained this to you by saying to put the system in a box. There are 3 ports. Input, output, and waste. Everything going on inside the box doesn't count in the efficiency calculation. Those are just internal processes.

Example. Efficiency of a car. Usually in miles per gallon. mi/gal, or mpg. Miles is short for work done to move vehicle a distance and knowing car's mass, rolling resistance and shape (for aero drag) could be converted into ft.lbf. (units of energy). Gallons represent input energy and easily converted to units of energy, BTU, knowing the type of fuel.

So car efficiency is output (work done moving a distance) divided by input (BTUs contained in the fuel used). One does not add up the engine output, the transmission output, the differential output, etc to get total power or energy converted to figure efficiency. Those are internal system intermediate conversions which do no useful work on the outside world.

bi
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  #4314  
Old 11-15-2018, 08:50 PM
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Previous post continued

Turion,

You speak often of "reusing" energy. About the only way of which I am aware can also use the car as an example. The input energy is in the fuel and output energy is the work done moving the car; the difference between the two amounts of energy is the waste heat coming out the exhaust and radiator. In the winter, some of that waste heat is diverted from the radiator to the cabin heating blowers. Heating the cabin and occupants is useful work so should be included in the system output for efficiency calculation. Such a scheme is often called cogeneration when used on larger scale with generation stations. In the car, it is a small fraction of total energy so is neglected in the mpg numbers.

bi
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  #4315  
Old 11-15-2018, 11:09 PM
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Lol

Bi,
I know all that. Just wanted to see you get all wound up again and show us all you know. But it was ALSO to point out that there are DIFFERENT components in this system. Why that is important will be clear in a moment.

As to your data...

All I can talk about is what I see on MY bench with MY setup. It isn’t up and running now, so I am going from memory and many, many, MANY runs are kind of mixed together in my head and I am on the road to AZ to see my kids, so don’t have access to any of my lab books and notes, so this is a general statement.

I run two boosts in parallel off the battery and the output is a bit over 93% of the input. It is set to about 26 volts so the motor is seeing about 12. I am using the modified Matt motor so although there are some losses, I get extended run times with just these three components. By this I mean the motor runs longer than it would off just the battery. I have a second Matt motor as generator and used a light as a load. The output of the generator goes through the light to the battery. The light flashes on and off rapidly. The battery runs THAT setup far longer than just the three basic pieces, which is STILL longer than just the motor connected to the battery, which is why I posted it.

YOU are looking at the light as your load. I am looking at the motor as mine. It makes a difference.

You have different components. You will get different results.
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  #4316  
Old 11-15-2018, 11:56 PM
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Just doesn't seem right

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
...

I run two boosts in parallel off the battery and the output is a bit over 93% of the input. It is set to about 26 volts so the motor is seeing about 12. I am using the modified Matt motor so although there are some losses, I get extended run times with just these three components. By this I mean the motor runs longer than it would off just the battery. ...

YOU are looking at the light as your load. I am looking at the motor as mine. It makes a difference.
...
So you have three components. One battery and two boosts (converters, I assume). The motor is the load.
You get 93% of battery energy out of the converters (to the motor). And you claim the motor runs longer with 93% of battery energy than it does on 100% of battery energy.
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  #4317  
Old 11-16-2018, 02:23 AM
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Info

You got it. Because some of the energy input into the motor is cycled back to the battery, charging it.
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  #4318  
Old 11-16-2018, 02:48 AM
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???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
You got it. Because some of the energy input into the motor is cycled back to the battery, charging it.
By what route does energy go from the motor to the battery?
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  #4319  
Old 11-16-2018, 04:25 AM
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The motor is running between the positive output of the boost converter (at 26 volts) and the positive pole of the battery (at 12 volts).
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  #4320  
Old 11-16-2018, 02:19 PM
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Info please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
The motor is running between the positive output of the boost converter (at 26 volts) and the positive pole of the battery (at 12 volts).
Turion,

Please specify or give link to the boost converters that you used. And you said you had two in parallel, right? I want to duplicate your circuit and see how it works. I have two converters but they are not identical so don't want to use those.

Thanks,

bi
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