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  #4201  
Old 08-21-2018, 06:09 PM
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hherby hherby is offline
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Other Boost convertor test configurations

My Goal was to address the differential voltages and simplify the battery rotation scheme by only switching between 2 or 3 24v banks. Also to determine how much (if any) of the losses in the system could be made up for by the boost convertor + cap dumper arrangement.

The boost voltage to the load could be set to a constant 14.9v or higher. It could also be set lower but the load would start out at the max differential voltage minus the output diode voltage drop until battery A+B drops below the boost convertor set point.

The cap in series with the load maintained a steady 10.3v due to the fact the chipset of the boost convertor connected across the cap would cease to function when the source voltage drops to 10.3 volts. I took advantage of that operating characteristic to maintain a higher voltage differential.

I did this some time ago but can't find my test notes so this is from memory.

The comparator cap dumper peak voltage/dump frequency could be adjusted easily for maximum charging rate of battery (bank) C. I had best results by setting the comparator for only a few volts above battery C with several discharges/sec. That was what my batteries (in the shape they were in) seemed to like best.

In Peter Lindeman's SG Beyond presentation, for some reason he didn't include or forgot to mention battery charge/discharge efficiencies as part of the losses in the system. He only mentioned wire/coil resistances and voltage drops across transistors and diodes as the minimal electrical losses that needed to be overcome. He indirectly inferred the DC generator waveform of the constant current followed by a spike would address the charge efficiency of the battery in the charge position.

The boost convertor in concert with the comparator cap dumper boosts the charge efficiency of battery C on the basis of Teslas method of conversion in my opinion. IE, converting a low voltage low current source into high voltage high current impulses to produce a gain.

Recycling the inductor charging current from the negative leg of BC #1 in the second config extends the run time of batteries A and B.

If your load can tolerate the full differential range of 14.9v to 11.7v, you could omit BC #1. Using a cap in series with the load provides a higher voltage differential for the load/ boost convertor + load to work with.

I make no claims on the COP of this arrangement. It would need much more cycle testing than I had time to complete but the experiment looked promising. Your mileage may vary.

Alex
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File Type: jpg boost2.jpg (118.6 KB, 81 views)
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  #4202  
Old 08-26-2018, 02:55 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
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My1016 Current draw

Greetings,
Finally, I had the time to finish my motor winding, epoxy and balancing included. Also, I`ve changed the original bearings with brand new quality bearings. Current draw of the motor, thought, is around 3,8-4 amp at 12 -24 volt.

Edit 1. I forgot to mention - each winding measure 0,4 Ohm, 40 turns+30 turns+30 turns, 24 AWG x 3 wires (actually 0,55 mm - between 23 and 24 AWG).
Edit 2. After sanding the copper contacts, and switching the metallic case of the magnets holder, the current draw dropped to 2,5-2,6 amp. Unfortunately, no tacho available, so no speed measurement.
I added, also, a movie with test nr. 2 of the motor, HERE
I think the current draw can be improved even more.
Edit 3. First test was for one hour, and current draw decrease from 1,8 amp (14 volt differential) to 1,7 amp (12,5 volt differential). VERY INTERESTING - Batt 1 and 2 was 12,7 volt and Batt 3 was 12,1 volt, and all setup run for at least 30 minutes very steady, ALL batts at 12,5 volt. Too bad I had to shut down the motor, IT WAS VERY HOT... I have to find a way to remove the heat from the motor.
Did anybody tried to make some ventilation holes in the plates? just asking...
Best regards,
Teo
Attached Images
File Type: jpg _ DSC_0004.jpg (237.8 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg _ DSC_0006.jpg (202.1 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg _ DSC_0008.jpg (224.6 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg _ DSC_0009.jpg (212.5 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg _ DSC_0010.jpg (153.2 KB, 40 views)
File Type: jpg 20180826_211959.jpg (236.2 KB, 34 views)
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Last edited by axxelxavier; 08-26-2018 at 07:26 PM. Reason: Adding some info - no reason for two postings....
  #4203  
Old 08-26-2018, 10:40 PM
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overcoming the typical battery inefficiencies

Quote:
Originally Posted by hherby View Post
He indirectly inferred the DC generator waveform of the constant current followed by a spike would address the charge efficiency of the battery in the charge position.

Alex,


Benitez spells that same thing out almost word for word in one of his patents. It is one of the most blatant "free energy" claims I've ever seen in a patent. Our experience shows it is right on the money, in my opinion. Peter spells it out and shows it in the patent in his recent presentation on the Benitez subject.
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  #4204  
Old 08-26-2018, 10:42 PM
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Hook that current meter up and adjust the backplate. That current should go down and the speed should go up. All these motors vary slightly and the tuning point for best speed and low current is a little different in each one.

A tach is important most are 15 - 20 dollars
https://www.amazon.com/AGPtek®-Profe...eld+tachometer

They help alot.

Good work
Matt
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  #4205  
Old 08-27-2018, 05:19 AM
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re: overcoming the typical battery inefficiencies

Hi Aaron,
I sent you a PM.
Thanks,
Alex
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  #4206  
Old 08-27-2018, 05:44 AM
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Robert Alexander Patent US3913004

Hi,
I think I found this patent included in part of a collection of Robert Brandt documents. Is this something that could be incorporated into Matt's motor?
Alex
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File Type: pdf US3913004.pdf (675.4 KB, 49 views)
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  #4207  
Old 08-27-2018, 02:47 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
Hook that current meter up and adjust the backplate. That current should go down and the speed should go up.
Can you be more specific, please? What can I adjust on the backplate? There I have only contacts, brushes and bearing place...
Best regards,
Teodor
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  #4208  
Old 08-27-2018, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axxelxavier View Post
Can you be more specific, please? What can I adjust on the backplate? There I have only contacts, brushes and bearing place...
Best regards,
Teodor
axxelxavier,
Matt is talking about adjusting the timing of the motor to advance or retard the firing just like turning the distributor on an older car engine to adjust the spark plug timing. This is done by turning the back plate clockwise or counter clockwise on the motor casing. You make a small adjustment and lock it down. You may have to find a way to clamp the backplate since the bolt holes in the backplate will no longer line up with the bolts. Then run the motor and measure the amp draw and the rpm. Keep adjusting until you get the highest speed and lowest amp draw.
Hope this helps.

Alex
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  #4209  
Old 08-27-2018, 05:17 PM
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Timing

axel Xavier,
On Matt’s motor you rotate the entire back plate to change the timing. The bolts that hold it together limit this. Many of us have removed the bolts to give us more adjustment range, which makes keeping the motor together difficult.
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  #4210  
Old 08-27-2018, 05:20 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hherby View Post
axxelxavier, Matt is talking about adjusting the timing of the motor [...].This is done by turning the back plate clockwise or counter clockwise on the motor casing. [...]Hope this helps. Alex
Thank you, Alex. How about the heating of the motor, it's normal the motor to be hot after using only 15 min? Last night I had to shut down the motor after one hour of testing, I could make fried eggs on it
Best regards,
Teodor.
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  #4211  
Old 08-27-2018, 05:28 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
axel Xavier, On Matt’s motor you rotate the entire back plate to change the timing. The bolts that hold it together limit this. Many of us have removed the bolts to give us more adjustment range, which makes keeping the motor together difficult.
Thank you for your reply, I will find other way to hold together the motor. Also, not sure how to cool down the motor, it is frustrating to test only one hour... maybe I'm wrong, but because the motor it is so hot I have the impression that is it about to explode...
Edit 1. OK, thank you @Turion and @hherby - I did find a way to hold the motor, which allowed me to find quickly the „sweet spot” of the motor. More details in pictures. Now the motor it`s drawing around 1,3-1,4 amps, and it is time for a longer test, to see if the heating issue is gone or not. A short movie, HERE
Edit 2.After 30 min, the motor seems to heat up much less, and the setup is already in equilibrium - all batts are showing 12,5 volts. This test will continue another 30 min. Tomorrow, another test, this time much longer.
Best regards,
Teodor
Attached Images
File Type: jpg _ 20180827_223047.jpg (166.5 KB, 38 views)
File Type: jpg _ 20180827_223945.jpg (215.3 KB, 40 views)
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Last edited by axxelxavier; 08-27-2018 at 09:00 PM.
  #4212  
Old 08-28-2018, 05:07 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
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Just a quick update: I thought it would be interesting to try to find a way to eliminate the heat, so in the pictures are the results... and a short movie, HERE
After a 15 minutes test with motor hooked up at 24 volts, MY1016 is quite hot, but still operational - before, it was very hot at only 12 volt, also, after 15 min.
Edit 1. After 30 min, it looks like the backplate it's going really hot, also, the both holes from sides generate warm air, so I think this may be the best quick solution to prevent overheating, or to prolong running time. Actually, the spacing between all 4 magnets allow to make 4 holes, even bigger than mine, and the magnets, including the plastic holder, can be removed to make the ventilation holes.
Edit 2. After running very hot one hour at 24 volt, I decided to test the motor at only 12 volts differential (no booster) on 3BGS.
So the motor is running for almost 2 hours, and the last hour is running cooler than previous tests on 12 volts - so I think this mod can be used on 12 volts. For 24 volts, I think the case need more holes between magnets. Some foto with temperatures added, this post in Fahrenheit degrees.

@all,
How long did you keep your MY1016 running?

Best regards,
Teodor
Attached Images
File Type: jpg _ 20180828_182916.jpg (213.5 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg _ 20180828_194530.jpg (164.9 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg _ 20180828_194543.jpg (61.8 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg _ 20180828_221107.jpg (171.4 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg _ 20180828_221117.jpg (191.5 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg _ 20180828_221143.jpg (196.3 KB, 16 views)
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Last edited by axxelxavier; 08-28-2018 at 07:18 PM.
  #4213  
Old 08-28-2018, 07:25 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
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Other pictures, this time in Celsius degrees. The biggest temperatures can be observed in the 4-th picture, with sensor on side hole. Pictures taken at cca 2,4 running time hours.
Very quiet in here...
L.E. Anyway, the motor was running for 4 hours continuously, last 3 hours on 12 volts, and the temperature of the MY1016 is constant, the motor is only warm, as can be seen in pictures.
For 24 volts or for using on big loads, though, some suplimentar ventilation holes must be done on sides. I would make bigger holes, also, on the back plate, because this is warmer than frontplate.
Best regards,
Teodor
Attached Images
File Type: jpg _ 20180828_220551.jpg (215.3 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg _ 20180828_220704.jpg (237.8 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg _ 20180828_220832.jpg (192.6 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg _ 20180828_220949.jpg (201.9 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg _ 20180828_221014.jpg (210.6 KB, 23 views)
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Last edited by axxelxavier; 08-28-2018 at 08:58 PM.
  #4214  
Old 08-29-2018, 09:27 AM
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I have run mine for hours on end maybe 8 at the most testing.

The only true way to make the thing cool is to use a ferrite material for the rotor. I have not had a chance to test it though. The material has to be a finer grain 200 mic and mixed and set with fiberglass reinforced epoxy. Maybe mixed at 80/20 epoxy and poured into a 3d printed shell to take shape. No alignment.

Turion started to test it but then had to move his house and thats still a ways out. Not sure when I'll get to it.

Hysteresis caused by the returned power is what causes the heat and no amount of venting is going to change that, just relive it a little.

If you pulling more than 1.3-1.5 amp at 24v while idling something is still wrong but I can't be sure what. Mine runs at 1.4 24v and heats up to 31c at +- 5200 rpms. Its tuned for speed not returned energy.

Matt
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  #4215  
Old 08-30-2018, 05:48 PM
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Hi Matt, Turion

As far as I understand the modified motor provides a pulse of power back to the positive from where the power comes from, now that has to go through the boost converter before it gets back to the battery, The boost converters have diodes in them because of how they work.
My question is how does the pulse get through the boost converter back to the battery positive, as I can't see how it gets past the boost converter.

netica
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  #4216  
Old 08-30-2018, 06:54 PM
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Build and test it to find out.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Netica View Post
Hi Matt, Turion

As far as I understand the modified motor provides a pulse of power back to the positive from where the power comes from, now that has to go through the boost converter before it gets back to the battery, The boost converters have diodes in them because of how they work.
My question is how does the pulse get through the boost converter back to the battery positive, as I can't see how it gets past the boost converter.

netica
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  #4217  
Old 08-30-2018, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic81 View Post
Build and test it to find out.....

I am doing so, however because I am thinking about it and a part that I am having trouble understanding, and very close to utilising, I thought I would just ask.

I would have to say in all the time I have been on this forum that this is the most unhelpful reply I have ever received. The post wasn't directed to you and although I welcome anyone's input I don't welcome it in the way you have given it.

I can't see the problem in discussing certain aspects of what is being built after all thats the whole point of discussion and learning, not just for myself but others who may be working on the project to bring about a more complete understanding to everyone interested.
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  #4218  
Old 08-30-2018, 07:46 PM
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My exerience

Maybe if Matt gets a few minutes between explosions he can confirm this, but it has been my exerience with this system that when you have things a certain way it will charge the primaries down the negative leg.
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  #4219  
Old 08-31-2018, 04:27 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I have run mine for hours on end maybe 8 at the most testing. The only true way to make the thing cool is to use a ferrite material for the rotor. [...] Hysteresis caused by the returned power is what causes the heat and no amount of venting is going to change that, just relive it a little.If you pulling more than 1.3-1.5 amp at 24v while idling something is still wrong but I can't be sure what. Mine runs at 1.4 24v and heats up to 31c at +- 5200 rpms. Its tuned for speed not returned energy.
Matt
It is about tuning, I think. I tried again to fine tune the backplate of the motor, and indeed, the motor draw 1,3 to 1,5 Amp on 3BGS, at 12 volts.
At 24 volt (the motor is connected directly to the booster, so no differential voltage, no 2BGS), the motor is drawing 1,8-1,9 Amp, so I think I can't do better than this except rewinding the rotor with 0,5 mm wire, not 0,55 as mine.
Anyway, the torque is quite impressive - I can't stop the motor by hand, even at 12 volts, so I can start the generator side tests...
Best regards,
Teodor
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  #4220  
Old 08-31-2018, 08:33 PM
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HI all

good evening to all finally my account has been activated thanks to the administrators, especially thank you to M.TURION who gave me two motors and parts needed to build the system 3bgs, he paid everything for me , including shipping to africa, i finished rewinding my motors and i wish to have the help needed to start .

Best Regards Sunlight
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Last edited by sunlight; 08-31-2018 at 08:38 PM.
  #4221  
Old 09-01-2018, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netica View Post
Hi Matt, Turion

As far as I understand the modified motor provides a pulse of power back to the positive from where the power comes from, now that has to go through the boost converter before it gets back to the battery, The boost converters have diodes in them because of how they work.
My question is how does the pulse get through the boost converter back to the battery positive, as I can't see how it gets past the boost converter.

netica
I thought I answered this but apparently I didn't complete the post. Sorry... In the case with the boost converter the returned power goes to the smoothing cap at the end of the boost converter. This is less energy the battery has to provide. Reducing the cost.
Most the returned energy is used up in heat from hysteresis thats why the motors get warm. This can be solved but we have not confirmed that yet so I am not going there.

Matt
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  #4222  
Old 09-01-2018, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axxelxavier View Post
It is about tuning, I think. I tried again to fine tune the backplate of the motor, and indeed, the motor draw 1,3 to 1,5 Amp on 3BGS, at 12 volts.
At 24 volt (the motor is connected directly to the booster, so no differential voltage, no 2BGS), the motor is drawing 1,8-1,9 Amp, so I think I can't do better than this except rewinding the rotor with 0,5 mm wire, not 0,55 as mine.
Anyway, the torque is quite impressive - I can't stop the motor by hand, even at 12 volts, so I can start the generator side tests...
Best regards,
Teodor
Oh OK, I thought you had wound with "0.5" (or 24 awg actually .511mm). "0.55" is closer to 23 AWG. That would definitely increase the current. More heat too.

https://technick.net/guides/electronics/awg_to_metric/


I apologize I should have included more metric measurements is the instructions. But you know us yanks we're kinda one sided about that stuff. Our way or the highway...LOL.

Matt

Matt
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  #4223  
Old 09-03-2018, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I thought I answered this but apparently I didn't complete the post. Sorry... In the case with the boost converter the returned power goes to the smoothing cap at the end of the boost converter. This is less energy the battery has to provide. Reducing the cost.
Most the returned energy is used up in heat from hysteresis thats why the motors get warm. This can be solved but we have not confirmed that yet so I am not going there.

Matt
Thank you for your help with this Matt.

netica
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  #4224  
Old 09-03-2018, 07:34 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
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Quote:
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Oh OK, I thought you had wound with "0.5" (or 24 awg actually .511mm). "0.55" is closer to 23 AWG. Matt
Yeah, actually I used what I have around me, there was no reason to buy different gauge wire.
Best regards,
Teodor
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  #4225  
Old 09-04-2018, 04:33 PM
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hello

hello someone can tell me how to test my motor after rewind thank you
best regard sunlight
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  #4226  
Old 09-04-2018, 09:17 PM
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hello someone can tell me how to test my motor after rewind thank you
best regard sunlight
Run it at 12 volt and 24 volt. Measure the current should be around 1.3 amp. Then check the rpms should be around 12v 2800 rpms 24v 5000 rpms. If its not there work on it.

Matt
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  #4227  
Old 09-06-2018, 12:37 AM
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hello

hello thank you MATT for your advices best regard sunlight
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  #4228  
Old 09-06-2018, 05:42 PM
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Just thought i'd update on how my 1020 motor has been going.
I found that I did have to have two resting commutator sections instead of one, at low speed it wasn't so noticeable but higher revs showed alot of arcing and problems.
Thin connecting leads was also an issue when I first was trying it out.
All wiring and connectors are high rating now.

It takes alot of voltage to get it up to speed though.
It runs on between 1.2 and 1.3 amps but needing 40volts to hit around 3000rpm
I may have to change the winding to get higher revs at lower voltage but that will bring up the amps.
It is a larger motor so it will always have to be different than the 1016 in its specs. that it will run at.
It pulls around 5 amps at 12 volts before the step up. After being 1.2 to 1.3Amps at 40 volts.
I have got the motor running very smooth. And I think it is very close to the best I will get it for now, although winding another a little different would be good to compare.

netica
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Last edited by Netica; 09-07-2018 at 09:58 AM.
  #4229  
Old 09-09-2018, 12:14 AM
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hello need help

hi all I need help, I finished my rewinding of my engine, when I tried to turn the motor, it turns and hangs I did the test under 12v and 24v and he a little warm, I used 24awg wire, I used three strands together to rewind, 40 turns for the first section then 30 turns for the second section and 30 turn for the third section, same for the opposite side, I do not know where I made a mistake.
thank best regard.sunlight
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  #4230  
Old 09-09-2018, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netica View Post
Just thought i'd update on how my 1020 motor has been going.
I found that I did have to have two resting commutator sections instead of one, at low speed it wasn't so noticeable but higher revs showed alot of arcing and problems.
Thin connecting leads was also an issue when I first was trying it out.
All wiring and connectors are high rating now.

It takes alot of voltage to get it up to speed though.
It runs on between 1.2 and 1.3 amps but needing 40volts to hit around 3000rpm
I may have to change the winding to get higher revs at lower voltage but that will bring up the amps.
It is a larger motor so it will always have to be different than the 1016 in its specs. that it will run at.
It pulls around 5 amps at 12 volts before the step up. After being 1.2 to 1.3Amps at 40 volts.
I have got the motor running very smooth. And I think it is very close to the best I will get it for now, although winding another a little different would be good to compare.

netica
You should have 16 copper spaces on your commutator, 4 should not be hooked to wire. If you only have 2 then the power is shorting out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunlight View Post
hi all I need help, I finished my rewinding of my engine, when I tried to turn the motor, it turns and hangs I did the test under 12v and 24v and he a little warm, I used 24awg wire, I used three strands together to rewind, 40 turns for the first section then 30 turns for the second section and 30 turn for the third section, same for the opposite side, I do not know where I made a mistake.
thank best regard.sunlight
Well obviously if it hangs up when you power it, you got your wire messed up and its jamming the rotor. Rewind the rotor.


Matt
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