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  #4171  
Old 01-31-2019, 12:15 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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A few facts.

According to the forklift boys.
Use a modern charger.
Never go below 70% DOD.
Don’t overwater a new battery at break-in.
Don’t if possible give a lunch-time boost charge.
1500 cycles is decent.
Don’t over-charge.
Never let electrolyte below top of plates.
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  #4172  
Old 01-31-2019, 01:57 PM
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There is no comparison between Li-ion and LA batteries. They are totally different. I use LA batteries regularly for my research into the possibility of OU. I use Li-ion regularly in my RC airplanes so I am familiar with the charging and care of both types of batteries.

Just for your information I tried a little test yesterday. I have a good battery analyzer that will give me the actual CCA of a battery and the internal resistance. I took a badly sulphated battery and measured a CCA of only 36.66 CCA. This battery is supposed to have a CCA of 145. It is a small U1 type of battery. These are the very minimum size battery you can use to prove the 3BGS system will work.

I pulsed the battery with 15.5 volts with a duty cycle of 25% and a frequency of 20 hz. After pulsing the battery for about 8 hours I let it rest overnight. When tested again this morning I got a CCA of 45.40 and an internal resistance of 65.50 milliohms. The previous internal resistance was 72.28 milliohms. So both the CCA and internal resistance shows that the proper charging of a battery can restore and keep a battery in good condition.

And I did see the battery reach a plateau of about 14.45 volts and just sit there. It was at that point I believe the desulphation was taking place.

I will keep pulsing this battery until I can't get it to restore any further and see how far it can be restored. It has been sitting for over a year without any use or charging so if it can even be restored to half of it original capacity that if proof enough for me that pulse charging and using a higher voltage for charging than is normally used is the proper way to take care of a battery.

Carroll
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  #4173  
Old 01-31-2019, 03:01 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Battery testing

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Originally Posted by citfta View Post
There is no comparison between Li-ion and LA batteries. They are totally different. I use LA batteries regularly for my research into the possibility of OU. I use Li-ion regularly in my RC airplanes so I am familiar with the charging and care of both types of batteries.

Just for your information I tried a little test yesterday. I have a good battery analyzer that will give me the actual CCA of a battery and the internal resistance. I took a badly sulphated battery and measured a CCA of only 36.66 CCA. This battery is supposed to have a CCA of 145. It is a small U1 type of battery. These are the very minimum size battery you can use to prove the 3BGS system will work.

I pulsed the battery with 15.5 volts with a duty cycle of 25% and a frequency of 20 hz. After pulsing the battery for about 8 hours I let it rest overnight. When tested again this morning I got a CCA of 45.40 and an internal resistance of 65.50 milliohms. The previous internal resistance was 72.28 milliohms. So both the CCA and internal resistance shows that the proper charging of a battery can restore and keep a battery in good condition.

And I did see the battery reach a plateau of about 14.45 volts and just sit there. It was at that point I believe the desulphation was taking place.

I will keep pulsing this battery until I can't get it to restore any further and see how far it can be restored. It has been sitting for over a year without any use or charging so if it can even be restored to half of it original capacity that if proof enough for me that pulse charging and using a higher voltage for charging than is normally used is the proper way to take care of a battery.

Carroll
Hi citfta,

You do realize that internal resistance and CCA (cold cranking Amperes, which is related to internal resistance) are not real indicators of capacity, although batteries with low capacity due to sulfation tend to also exhibit low CCA and high internal resistance. Does your good battery analyzer have a capacity test (Ah)?

U1 is garden tractor cranking battery size. I think the 145CCA is the least available sometimes on sale under $20. As such, the quality could be questionable. Do you even have a specification for internal resistance or Ah? Let alone tested values when new?

I found over the course of testing a thousand or so high quality AGM batteries that incoming quality was an issue so every one was tested for capacity. Ampere hours, or actually watt hours, was our primary criteria. Always had 1 to 3 fail completely on arrival whether lot size was 1, 3, 12, or 100. Then remaining were sorted to tested Ah, with like a 20% variance. Without accurate benchmark testing on the actual sample, valid, reliable data from subsequent testing is tough. You really don't know what you started with.

Anyway, I like to see you testing that U1. Just a couple days ago I bought several batteries in from the barn to basement due to the forecast -20°F. One of which was a new "cheap" FLA U1. I bought it last summer for my mower but it didn't fit due to fill caps. Need a VRLA with smooth top. For the $16, I just kept the FLA thinking I had a use for it elsewhere. So, I was thinking I'd run some tests on it to Aaron's magic 15.2V dip. I need a way to record charge voltage vs time. My CBAIII doesn't have that feature.

Regards,

bi
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  #4174  
Old 01-31-2019, 03:11 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Li-ion RTE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamnuts View Post
A point I was trying to get across was RTE.
I did this test with lithium ion because it is fairly accurate.
I used 1780 mah from my battery. I then charged my battery with
my IMAX B6. This showed me that it needed 2000 mah. to recharge.

This means that the efficiency was 89%.
100% was coming from the wall and I got back 89% of that from my
battery.
Aaron couldn’t seem to grasp this.
From what I get from various sources is that, for lead acid, it is sort of
the 90% mark.
The IMAX manual says it is difficult to determine full charge with la, that’s
why I used li ion.
According to me this is a factor in 3BGS.
John.
Hi Iamnuts,

That's odd. The coulombic efficiency of Lithium ion batteries is usually greater than 99%. From my experience, 100%. The RTE figure is lower but pretty much entirely attributed to voltage drop.

Regards,

bi
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  #4175  
Old 01-31-2019, 04:41 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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Agree.

Bi,
just found this;

28 Oct 2016 · Tesla just released all the details of its Powerwall 2 and it is a ... 7 kW peak; Round Trip Efficiency: 89% for AC Powerwall, 91.8% for DC ...
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  #4176  
Old 01-31-2019, 11:25 PM
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Unconventional battery facts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamnuts View Post
A point I was trying to get across was RTE.
I did this test with lithium ion because it is fairly accurate.
I used 1780 mah from my battery. I then charged my battery with
my IMAX B6. This showed me that it needed 2000 mah. to recharge.
This means that the efficiency was 89%.
100% was coming from the wall and I got back 89% of that from my
battery.
Aaron couldn’t seem to grasp this.
From what I get from various sources is that, for lead acid, it is sort of
the 90% mark.
The IMAX manual says it is difficult to determine full charge with la, that’s
why I used li ion.
According to me this is a factor in 3BGS.
John.

I already clarified that I understood that and also that what you claim to be battery science fact applies onto to low quality charging that never hits the topping event. Obviously, batteries will deteriorate over time - unless you hit the topping event as shown in the graph from the "Battery Bible."

For your information, around 2004 when Peter Lindemann worked at John's they did a lot of non-stop charge/discharge tests - that was during the week. The graphs all showed that they were able to discharge more from the battery than what went into them - it was absolutely overunity so your coveted round trip efficiency was over 100% with flooded cell lead acid batteries, indisputably - and it seemed to happen predictably every single time. Then over the weekend, the batteries sat and come Monday, the charge and discharge cycle showed that the overunity disappeared. Just sitting a couple days was enough to nullify whatever conditioning effects were happening in the battery that allowed the gains. That was all solid state, without a wheel spinning and without considering any mechanical work done. Most people will never see this because most people will never do that many consecutive charge and discharge cycles to see it.

"Various sources"?? Why not find out yourself so you can be your own source of information by actually doing the experiments? If I listened to all the various sources out there, I would have never accomplished anything because everything would already have been figured out.

There is no battery capacity analyzer in the world that will give an exact indication of what is in a lead acid battery. I remember John and Peter wrestling with this with all kind of meters they had and none of them were very good. I sort of recall John communicating with B & K to give them feedback on the deficiencies on their expensive battery analyzers. Some are better than others, some are pretty close, but nothing gives a more accurate measurement than charging a battery up and discharging it with a 20 hour rated load to calculate how many Joule seconds you got back. There are obvious situations where it would be good to know what the load-powering capability is without having to drain the battery.

However, if you have the battery full charged by a very specific method to a certain voltage and you do the draw down test - the CBA-IV automates this, you will see exactly what you got out of the battery until it gets down to a certain voltage. That gives you a good benchmark to go by. If you charge the battery up by the same method until it gets to the same voltage, you can be guaranteed that you will be within just a couple percent of your last draw down test. That is valuable information.

That can be done with the 3 Battery method so it does not have to be an issue or factor as you say. If the total work done exceeds what you start with and it is obviously well above a few percent difference, then it is over 1.0 COP, which it is. Instead of focusing on every reason why it can't work - why not focus on how it can be done?

Conceptually, this could work better with LiFePo4 batteries since they have ultra low impedance compared to lead acids. Babcock stair stepped his 24v LiFePo4 bank with his single coil SG up bit by bit and wound up with his battery banks charged up with more voltage and capacity than what they started with. Those batteries aren't supposed to like spikes or cap dumps, but they didn't complain the whole time there were being charged on the single coil SSG with inductive spikes. Long term, I don't know the effects on those batteries, but I saw this happen and I wasn't the only one.



Keep in mind Lithiums are constant voltage batteries and lead acids are constant current - so you are comparing apples to oranges.


There are only two points you have tried to make in this.

1. You get less from the battery than what you put into it - this can be and has been defeated many times. Concepts such as recycling electricity so to speak ought to ring a bell so one would think, "Hmmm, maybe I should actually listen to something that may benefit me!" Others have their ideas why and I have my own ideas, but the bottom line is that it can be defeated.

2. A battery will lose capacity over time and this only happens when the batteries are chronically undercharged. I show you a graph from a 2A12 Bedini charger showing the capacity goes up on each charge and what is your response? To post a charge showing the decrease in battery capacity over time, which is irrelevant if one knows how to charge the battery up to begin with? You're not bringing anything new to the table except for the desire to see the glass half empty. Bring them to a true topping charge and you can increase capacity even above the manufacturers rating and keep it there. If there is something that someone cannot grasp, such as yourself, it is this indisputable fact proven by people all over the world. You seem knowledgeable enough to understand the simple logic behind the Battery Bible chart. Why argue it without testing it out for yourself? Why you cannot admit this is true means you are only trying to maintain a confirmation of what you already believe instead of learning something new.

You admitted yourself you failed in the Bedini experiments so you are the one who was not able to grasp what was taught or did not actually apply what you learned. That is on you and not on anyone that is getting real results.
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Last edited by Aaron; 02-02-2019 at 05:49 AM.
  #4177  
Old 02-01-2019, 03:10 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
...
1. You get less from the battery than what you get out of it - ...
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the lengthy explanation. But I don't understand the above quoted sentence. Seems to contradict itself.

Regards,

bi
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  #4178  
Old 02-02-2019, 05:49 AM
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edit

Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Aaron,

Thanks for the lengthy explanation. But I don't understand the above quoted sentence. Seems to contradict itself.

Regards,

bi

I corrected it.
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  #4179  
Old 02-02-2019, 01:57 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
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Ok, so I've got final results...33 Hours running time, less than before.
Before jumping to a conclusion, let me tell you a few things about my setup: I used only one booster, in the beginning, and the current draw raised big time, from 2 A to almost 2,8 A.
After a resting time, I've removed a led bulb from load, to fit in C20 rate, so now the load was 2 A again.
I've added, also, a second booster, initially, to positive of the second from series batteries, and voltage for bat 2 and 3 was, for some time, very steady, but bat 1 has lost some power. In the end, I've hooked up the second booster to the positive of the first one from the series batteries. But all setup was unstable, so from time to time, I had to remove second booster from setup, to aloud Batt 3 to be charged, and after a while, I connected again, to charge also battery 1.
The results was not as I've expected, but, I have to admit this was a hybrid test, and the load was exceeded C20 rate for a good period of time.
What it was interesting, though, on this final setup: there was no need to rotate batteries, only to connect / disconnect second booster when needed.
I am going to recharge two from my primary batteries using the same charger as before (CTEK MSX 5.0), and maybe I am going to try again.
Anyway, I am open to opinions / critics / suggestions.
Best regards,
Teodor.
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File Type: jpg 03.jpg (162.9 KB, 5 views)
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  #4180  
Old 02-02-2019, 04:50 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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Interesting sort of chart

https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content...2/figure-1.gif
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  #4181  
Old 02-04-2019, 05:58 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
None of the 3 Battery stuff we have posted can be “scaled up” to run your house. The whole purpose has been to teach some basic concepts about how this stuff works and get you to look at what is ACTUALLY going on in these circuits so you will learn some things that can be applied to OTHER circuits. You need a scope and you need to take measurements of every part of the circuit and you need to use your brain and think a bit. Or don’t. It is always your choice.
Hmm, I thought this thread is about makers, about sharing experiences, about learning together from each other. I shared without any restriction all that I have learned, with failures and small progresses, sometimes...
I am not complaining about anything, I don't ask anything, I'm not judging no one, I am only asking:
what is the purpose of this thread, after all?
Anyway, I want to thank everyone who tried to help me: hat off!
Good luck in your researches!
Best regards,
Teodor.
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  #4182  
Old 02-04-2019, 06:56 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by axxelxavier View Post
Hmm, I thought this thread is about makers, about sharing experiences, about learning together from each other. I shared without any restriction all that I have learned, with failures and small progresses, sometimes...
I am not complaining about anything, I don't ask anything, I'm not judging no one, I am only asking:
what is the purpose of this thread, after all?
Anyway, I want to thank everyone who tried to help me: hat off!
Good luck in your researches!
Best regards,
Teodor.
Hi axxelxavier,

It does seem like Turion contradicts himself and avoids answering questions. I thought Aaron's resent posts explained the phenomena at the heart of the matter. So I altered my experiment plan to explore directly what he explained rather than repeat what you did. I just need to wait on delivery of the instrument (in the mail) so I can document the charge cycle energy. Hope you stick around. I like to see your data posts.

Regards,

bi
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  #4183  
Old 02-04-2019, 08:09 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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Battery store.

I needed a battery today and called by my supplier.
When they were filling the acid I had a look round and noticed a few Optima
batteries in a corner.
They looked a bit different so this evening I had a look on the ‘bayOptima YELLOW TOP YTS 4.2 8012-254 8012254 AGM Battery 12Volt 55Ah 765A is an AGM technology dual-purpose deep-cycle and starting battery. This battery has three times the cycling capability (rechargeability) with ultimate cranking power for your auto, car or truck to outperform traditional batteries. This battery is perfect for powering heavy electrical loads, including winches, audio systems, inverters, and other demanding vehicle accessories and electronics. Lower internal resistance provides more efficient power output and faster recharges.

Main Features:

Lasts twice longer than traditional batteries
More than 15 times the vibration resistance
Completely spillproof, mountable in virtually any position
Maintenance-free
Faster recharging
300+ discharge/recharge cycles

Unfortunately all of this comes at a price. They seem to me to be about
three times the price of the ones I usually buy.
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  #4184  
Old 02-04-2019, 08:43 PM
axxelxavier axxelxavier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi axxelxavier,
It does seem like Turion contradicts himself and avoids answering questions. I thought Aaron's resent posts explained the phenomena at the heart of the matter. So I altered my experiment plan to explore directly what he explained rather than repeat what you did. I just need to wait on delivery of the instrument (in the mail) so I can document the charge cycle energy. Hope you stick around. I like to see your data posts.Regards,bi
I don't want to argue, with nobody. I payed attention to Aaron's explanations, as they fit with my own other projects. Maybe I will talk about them, when I have some validated results to show. Or maybe not.
I will consider sticking around, to see your tests - I'm curious if they coincide my current path.
If interested, I am going to make some other 3BGS tests, in a „classical manner”, maybe will present some interest for you or anyone. This time, however, batteries are charged differently: one with classical charger, and the other with a pulse charger. I will make this test probably in the weekend, to fit in a bigger time frame work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
... and even THEN people don't build it correctly, so why show anything ELSE?
Maybe some of us need encouragements, maybe some of us need examples... I cannot afford LiFePo4 or some fancy high tech devices (including oscilloscope), and I know the motor - generator system works, but right now I'm looking for a silent version (solid-state?), because the noise is simply too annoying in my small apartment. There must be other ways to achieve the same result.
And yes, I am a practical man, I want something which I can use in real life.
Lighting in my house (100-150 watt), while regenerating / recharging some batteries, will be enough, for me.
Best regards,
Teodor
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Last edited by axxelxavier; 02-04-2019 at 08:48 PM.
  #4185  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:44 PM
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Hello All,

What is the most current schematic for each circuit that everyone is using to test with? I want to make sure that I have the right setup for my next run of tests this week.

Thank you,

-Altrez
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  #4186  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:46 PM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi axxelxavier,

It does seem like Turion contradicts himself and avoids answering questions. I thought Aaron's resent posts explained the phenomena at the heart of the matter. So I altered my experiment plan to explore directly what he explained rather than repeat what you did. I just need to wait on delivery of the instrument (in the mail) so I can document the charge cycle energy. Hope you stick around. I like to see your data posts.

Regards,

bi
Hello bi,

Can you please share the name of the device / link that you ordered. I would like to buy one so we can compare results.

Thanks!

-Altrez
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  #4187  
Old 02-05-2019, 11:21 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Data instrument

Quote:
Originally Posted by altrez View Post
Hello bi,

Can you please share the name of the device / link that you ordered. I would like to buy one so we can compare results.

Thanks!

-Altrez
Hi Altrez,

Sure. It arrived today. Later tonight or tomorrow, after I get it wired into a circuit and see it actually function.

Glad to see an interest.

bi

Edit: It took a while but I am communicating with the device. I'll try storing data tomorrow. Looks like a nice device. Like the quality.
https://moosh.im/mooshimeter/
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Last edited by bistander; 02-06-2019 at 06:28 AM. Reason: Additional info
  #4188  
Old 02-06-2019, 01:17 AM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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Well done!

Bistander, looking forward to seeing your results.
I’m sure you’re going to provide some reliable information.
If you have time, it would be nice if you could show schematic.
Thank you John.
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  #4189  
Old 02-06-2019, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Altrez,

Sure. It arrived today. Later tonight or tomorrow, after I get it wired into a circuit and see it actually function.

Glad to see an interest.

bi

Edit: It took a while but I am communicating with the device. I'll try storing data tomorrow. Looks like a nice device. Like the quality.
https://moosh.im/mooshimeter/
Hello bi,

Thank you for the link. I ordered one off Amazon that will be here next week. I also got a 32 gig sd card for the unit to save data locally.

-Altrez
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  #4190  
Old 02-07-2019, 05:00 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Data instrument

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Originally Posted by altrez View Post
Hello bi,

Thank you for the link. I ordered one off Amazon that will be here next week. I also got a 32 gig sd card for the unit to save data locally.

-Altrez
Hi Altrez,

I hooked up a simple battery to resistor circuit.



It took a bit of fussing around but got it working reading both volts and amps. Still need to work on real time graph. I did record and store the data on the SD card. File included switch from resistor to charger. Got the file over to my laptop in Xcel. Looks like something I can work with.

Regards,

bi
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  #4191  
Old 02-07-2019, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hi Altrez,

I hooked up a simple battery to resistor circuit.



It took a bit of fussing around but got it working reading both volts and amps. Still need to work on real time graph. I did record and store the data on the SD card. File included switch from resistor to charger. Got the file over to my laptop in Xcel. Looks like something I can work with.

Regards,

bi
Looks good. I am excited for mine to get here now. I am planing on starting all the way back to the beginning with just 3 battery's and work up from there.



-Altrez
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  #4192  
Old 02-08-2019, 08:24 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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Find.

I like looking for the latest products, we use lead acid hard, they only last
several weeks and they’re done.
I found this battery and it looks impressive.http://www.energeticforum.com/attach...1&d=1549657418
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  #4193  
Old 02-08-2019, 09:26 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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My belief.

This is the sort of thing my own experience has shown me.


Answering to the question "Is there data available to quantify a loss in lead-acid battery quality from low-voltage events?" here are two good sources:

"Battery life is directly related to how deep the battery is cycled each time. If a battery is discharged to 50% every day, it will last about twice as long as if it is cycled to 80% DOD[1]. If cycled only 10% DOD, it will last about 5 times as long as one cycled to 50%. Obviously, there are some practical limitations on this - you don't usually want to have a 5 ton pile of batteries sitting there just to reduce the DOD. The most practical number to use is 50% DOD on a regular basis." -- https://www.solar-electric.com/deep-...ttery-faq.html

"typical life of starter and deep-cycle batteries when deep cycled:

Depth of Discharge Starter Battery Deep-cycle Battery
------------------------------------------------------------
100% 12–15 cycles 150–200 cycles
50% 100–120 cycles 400–500 cycles
30% 130–150 cycles 1,000 and more cycles
" -- Lead-based Batteries Information ? Battery University
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  #4194  
Old 02-09-2019, 05:12 AM
BobFrench BobFrench is offline
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Simple switching...very cool. Add a little solar.

I have been running a 3 Battery System with the following setup using 6 batteries, but it can be done with 3 batteries also. I wanted to go to 24 and 48 volts with a 24v potential difference, so I'm using 3 pairs of batteries. The middle battery (or batteries) are always part of the Primary...they never become used as the Battery 3. So I am only switching between the other two.
Also, I am adding solar to the middle batteries and this makes some very interesting advantages when there is good sun. Because the solar pushes these batteries high and they are in series with the other Primary batteries, The Primaries and the potential difference between the positives remain very high for a long time. It also allows for Battery 3 to be charged to a higher level before the system has to be switched. And because there is extra energy from the solar, all the batteries can gain as the system cycles.
I added a DPDT switch and by throwing that one switch I swap batteries AND reverse the leads of the load. This is because the middle batteries can have their positive as the high voltage positive (+) all the time and the other batteries provide the low voltage positive (-). This means that with one switch the low voltage positive changes. And the load is always attached to the middle Primary's high voltage positive (+), so only the low voltage side (-) needs to be changed. When it comes time to run the energy back the other way, you just throw one switch...and it's done.
Notes: The big orange switches are set and not changes in this setup. I use them to switch each pair of batteries between 12v and 24v. With this current setup they stay in 24v arrangement all the time. Also, if you notice that there are three thick red wires attached to the black switch. They are for switching the batteries and there are black wires for the load switching, but they are hard to follow. BTW, the load lead switches to the opposite side from the Secondary that is being switched to.
It's been a while since I've posted, but I've been researching, experimenting and building all the time...every day. Enjoy.

Bob
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  #4195  
Old 02-09-2019, 12:53 PM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Hello All,

I picked up on Amazon a small adjustable DC load so I could test my battery's consistently. It works pretty good so far and I am testing now with a 7ah battery at the c20 ratting.





I am going to compare the time on a stand alone battery and then on the 3bs with this as the load. Seems like a good start.

-Altrez

Edit: Not sure what I was thinking this morning but that was a 5ah battery. I have adjusted the load to 0.250
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Last edited by altrez; 02-09-2019 at 01:39 PM.
  #4196  
Old 02-09-2019, 05:55 PM
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Sawt2 Sawt2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by altrez View Post
Hello All,

I picked up on Amazon a small adjustable DC load so I could test my battery's consistently. It works pretty good so far and I am testing now with a 7ah battery at the c20 ratting.





I am going to compare the time on a stand alone battery and then on the 3bs with this as the load. Seems like a good start.

-Altrez

Edit: Not sure what I was thinking this morning but that was a 5ah battery. I have adjusted the load to 0.250

Would you mind providing a link to that item, wouldn’t mind looking into that
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  #4197  
Old 02-09-2019, 09:04 PM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawt2 View Post
Would you mind providing a link to that item, wouldn’t mind looking into that
Hello Sawt2,

Here is the link:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I am really enjoying it so far. I have also used it today to test one of my USB power packs and it worked great.



-Altrez
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  #4198  
Old 02-09-2019, 10:59 PM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Question for the group,

When starting your tests with the 3BS do you start with 3 full battery's or with 2 full battery's and the 3rd being at a lower voltage?

I have been starting with my 3rd battery at 11.5 and the other two at 12.6-8.

What are you guys / gals thoughts on the best way to start out?

-Altrez
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  #4199  
Old 02-10-2019, 12:59 AM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
altrez,
How you start depends on what you are trying to do. With two fully charged batteries and a third battery fully charged your potential difference is going to remain constant for longer because it is harder to charge a fully charged battery. But you are also throwing power away trying to overcome the resistance in the fully charged battery and charge it. With a dead third battery the potential difference is high to begin with but that drops as the primaries lose charge and battery 3 charges. Both will teach you things, but until you add s boost module and a pulsing circuit of some kind, either mechanical like Matt’s motor or digital like an Arduino running a 555 timer, you will never see the real potential of this system.
Hello Dave,

Thank you for the input. I do agree you need to add the boost module and Matt's motor / pulse circuit. My goal for this test is to start with the most basic of setups. And when I say basic I am talking 3 battery's and a controlled load.

I am working on a PDF that has everything from the start of this over 10 years ago to the current builds. I felt like the best place to start this documentation was with the simple 3 battery swap and go from there.

I know it works however I have never fully documented it in great detail. So I have ordered another data logger and another DC load tester plus four new 7AH battery's.

I will post all of my tests and a link on dropbox to the pdf.



-Altrez
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  #4200  
Old 02-10-2019, 09:07 AM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
altrez,
I hate to discourage you, but as I have said hundreds of times over the last ten years, small batteries are not going to cut it if you expect to see anything.


I am trying to be as honest as I can. The difference between success and failure with this system is NOT huge, and you need every bit of help you can get. The conductance, internal resistance and impedance of a battery are linearly correlated to each other across a wide range of battery capacities, and are basically a measure of the same thing. The smaller the battery, the more "resistant" it is to charging, which basically means there are two separate and distinct "costs" to charging a battery. The first is the amount of energy you actually put into the battery. The second is what you pay to "be allowed" to put that energy into the battery in the first place. Think of it as a "tax" you pay to charge a battery. The bigger the battery, the smaller the tax. The smaller the battery, the larger the tax.

So when you are trying to recycle energy or conserve energy with a very small prototype system like you are building, that tax is going to KILL your results.

Minimums for success:
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Large systems with large deep cycle batteries.
Pulsed charging
Voltage 2.5 volts higher than the standing voltage of the battery.

I asked Bob French to post and show how he was currently using a small solar panel to take advantage of the 3 Battery system, because I know how much testing of this system Bob has done, and he and I talk all the time.

ANOTHER way to gain an advantage using the 3 battery type setup with solar is to run your inverter between the output of the solar panel's charge controller and the batteries you are trying to charge. Put ALL the batteries from your whole system in parallel which means you maintain the potential difference for the longest time possible. Then when all the batteries are charged, run the inverter directly off them. You have used the energy TWICE. You have basically doubled the time your system can run on the batteries you have. If the output voltage of your particular charge controller is not high enough to allow you to do that, well that's what a boost module is for.
Hello Dave,

I am in total agreement with you about the larger battery's. The effect is impossible to miss on the larger battery's. I have noticed this on small 1.5v Dcells as well.

I have seen this work with the 7AH battery's and while I agree its not going to blow your mind with the results, it works and I am going to log it this time.

This is for the first part of my PDF the simple 3 battery swap that John posted so long ago. I will get on to adding boost modules and better battery's later For now this is all I am working on:



As always thank you for the help,



-Altrez
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