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  #4051  
Old 07-28-2018, 12:00 AM
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altrez altrez is offline
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I have had a few people over to look at what I was doing and a few emails asking questions.

1. The red fluke is for explosion safety, I use them at work.
2. The 100% battery level on the wireless watt/volt meter is reporting the charge of its battery.

Just in case anyone was wondering lol.

-Altrez
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  #4052  
Old 07-28-2018, 01:13 AM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Last time

altrez,
thanks for doing the testing by establishing a baseline with off the shelf stuff, and then using the modified motor. I already know what you will see.

bi,
Some day you will understand our frustration. We have done HUNDREDS of hours of testing this motor side by side with a standard motor. Loaded, unloaded, low voltage and higher voltages. We have used scopes and meters and expensive battery analyzers. Yet you, with your vast experience with a motor you have NOT BUILT, are able to look at a video and discredit everything we are saying. You don't even understand what you are seeing. It is laughable.
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  #4053  
Old 07-28-2018, 01:57 AM
bistander bistander is offline
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Simple facts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
...
bi,
Some day you will understand our frustration. We have done HUNDREDS of hours of testing this motor side by side with a standard motor. Loaded, unloaded, low voltage and higher voltages. We have used scopes and meters and expensive battery analyzers. Yet you, with your vast experience with a motor you have NOT BUILT, are able to look at a video and discredit everything we are saying. You don't even understand what you are seeing. It is laughable.
Turion,

Being frustrated doesn't make you right. In fact it can cloud your vision of logic and truth. All I said was that it is obvious from luc's video that the power into the motor is more than power out of the motor in that experiment. There was no battery.

It is wrong to claim that motor outputs more power than its input.

I said nothing in regards to any effects voltage spikes originating in the motor might have on batteries.

You and wantomake both claimed that video proved the motor power output exceeded its input power. That is wrong. The video clearly shows the opposite.

Regards,

bi
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  #4054  
Old 07-28-2018, 02:19 AM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Here is the current test results.

This is the one battery circuit:



This is the basic test with PWM:



These are from the battery connection on each before the load.

-Altrez
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  #4055  
Old 07-28-2018, 02:40 AM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Tests over for the night, going to let the batterys rest over night then I will test them again to see what we have.

My observations at this point seem to show that there is not much of a difference between running the motor controlled with a pwm or using the one battery circuit. Perhaps I should have just directly connected the motor to the battery?

I used a PWM years ago and posted results in the closed thread and back then it always showed good results.

Perhaps it is all about balance

More results tomorrow!!

-Altrez
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  #4056  
Old 07-28-2018, 03:45 AM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Opinion

It is your opinion that I am wrong. It is not a fact. Far from it. Regardless of what you say. So we will just have to agree to disagree.
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  #4057  
Old 07-28-2018, 05:29 AM
bistander bistander is offline
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Opinion

It is just my opinion that 16.84 is larger than zero. So you disagree. O.K.
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  #4058  
Old 07-28-2018, 11:14 AM
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Ignore list

I guess it's best to use the ignore list. Everybody has a right to voice their opinion. But if the opinion is disruptive and not true then my right to close my ears and eyes is my choice.

I hope to get more done soon on this build. We are waiting for contractors this morning. So another weekend with little building.

A hot cup of coffee to All this Saturday morning.
wantomake
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  #4059  
Old 07-28-2018, 12:13 PM
Iamnuts Iamnuts is offline
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All.

To all except Bistander, if you’ve all developed perpetual motion machines
you’ll even pale Einstein into insignificance!
Sincerely,
John.
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  #4060  
Old 07-28-2018, 12:15 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by altrez View Post
Tests over for the night, going to let the batterys rest over night then I will test them again to see what we have.

My observations at this point seem to show that there is not much of a difference between running the motor controlled with a pwm or using the one battery circuit. Perhaps I should have just directly connected the motor to the battery?

I used a PWM years ago and posted results in the closed thread and back then it always showed good results.

Perhaps it is all about balance

More results tomorrow!!

-Altrez

There may be cases in which a PWM is beneficial, but in this case because you are trying to recover energy you are waisting by adding time to the over all wave form. And this is the worst most consumptive way to waist energy.

For instance you put 24 volt 1 amp into the PWM it breaks that up to a 50% duty cycle and passes it to the motor. The motor reaction to the impulses is to average out those pulses into a voltage. 24 volt 1 amp at 50% duty cycle is equal to 12 volt 1 amp. You have to average the on time with the off time.
Thats an automatic 50% loss of power just because of the averaging.

For recovery you are better off just lowering the voltage on the output which in turn lowers the input, as opposed to raising the voltage and segmenting it. Time is a power killer.

Matt
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  #4061  
Old 07-28-2018, 12:36 PM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
There may be cases in which a PWM is beneficial, but in this case because you are trying to recover energy you are waisting by adding time to the over all wave form. And this is the worst most consumptive way to waist energy.

For instance you put 24 volt 1 amp into the PWM it breaks that up to a 50% duty cycle and passes it to the motor. The motor reaction to the impulses is to average out those pulses into a voltage. 24 volt 1 amp at 50% duty cycle is equal to 12 volt 1 amp. You have to average the on time with the off time.
Thats an automatic 50% loss of power just because of the averaging.

For recovery you are better off just lowering the voltage on the output which in turn lowers the input, as opposed to raising the voltage and segmenting it. Time is a power killer.

Matt
Thank you so much for explaining that to me! It makes perfect sense. The reason I used the PWM was to make sure I could get the same amperage going into the basic test motor as what I was reading going into the one battery test circuits motor.

And that seemed to work fine in this case.



-Altrez
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  #4062  
Old 07-28-2018, 01:48 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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PWM motor controllers

Quote:
Originally Posted by altrez View Post
Thank you so much for explaining that to me! It makes perfect sense. The reason I used the PWM was to make sure I could get the same amperage going into the basic test motor as what I was reading going into the one battery test circuits motor.

And that seemed to work fine in this case.



-Altrez
Hello Altrez,

PWM motor controllers are buck converters and operate efficiently employing current multiplication through a freewheeling diode. Matt is incorrect. They do not waste 50% of the power at half voltage. Please don't believe me and look up buck converter or PWM DC motor controller.

Regards,

bi
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  #4063  
Old 07-28-2018, 02:03 PM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Options

Wantomake,
The ignore list is a great option. So that’s what I’m using.

I have to look at it like this. It’s kinda like a guy with his own flying saucer in his back yard being told by some self righteous buffoon that man will never fly. When I step back and think of it like that, it makes me laugh and I don’t get so frustrated. He may never know just how MUCH he doesn’t know. So he will go forward in ignorance until the day the truth slaps him in the face. I won’t get to see that happen, but I KNOW it is coming. I can’t wait to see if there are excuses or if he just runs away and hides. Either way, it will be entertaining.
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  #4064  
Old 07-28-2018, 02:05 PM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hello Altrez,

PWM motor controllers are buck converters and operate efficiently employing current multiplication through a freewheeling diode. Matt is incorrect. They do not waste 50% of the power at half voltage. Please don't believe me and look up buck converter or PWM DC motor controller.

Regards,

bi
Hello bistander,

Do you have some links you could share on this?

Thanks!!

-Altrez
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  #4065  
Old 07-28-2018, 03:02 PM
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wantomake wantomake is offline
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Looks good

Quote:
Originally Posted by altrez View Post
After thinking about this a bit. I have decided to add a PWM to the basic test to control the power going to the motor. I want the power going into the motor to be as close to the same on each test.

If I just hook it straight up to the battery it will run wide open. I will sync up the basic test to the one battery circuit test in regards to power going into the motor to keep things fair.

Any thoughts?

-Altrez
Thanks for being part of this. Looks like good setup. Would like to see more do this and yes me too.

Maybe get some shop time tonight if contractors get done today.
Sorry no thoughts to add.
wantomake
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  #4066  
Old 07-28-2018, 03:15 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by altrez View Post
Hello bistander,

Do you have some links you could share on this?

Thanks!!

-Altrez
I would think that would depend on the PWM you are using. If it actually bucking thats not a problem. If its just cutting up your current with a timed on and off that is a problem. You can look up Volt-Second principles. Its 101 engineering for sure. Lots of things fall under Volt-Seconds principle its really useful concept to know.

Matt
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  #4067  
Old 07-28-2018, 08:54 PM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Hello Everyone,

Here are the final results of my tests.


Here is the basic battery test using only the motor, a 12v 7.2ah battery and a PWM:






And here is the final tests for the one battery circuit's 12v 7.2 ah battery:






I hope this test was helpful to some of you. It ran for 3 hours and I let it rest for almost 20 hours before taking measurements.

-Altrez
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  #4068  
Old 07-28-2018, 11:23 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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Cutting up current

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I would think that would depend on the PWM you are using. If it actually bucking thats not a problem. If its just cutting up your current with a timed on and off that is a problem.
Doesn't the Matt modification to the motor cut up the current with a timed on and off?
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  #4069  
Old 07-28-2018, 11:40 PM
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93% duty cycle. No matter the speed.
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  #4070  
Old 07-28-2018, 11:48 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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45 people watching. Watch now, you know good info is coming, Its always near when the man sends his minions in to disturb the thing. You see bisexual is hard at trying to implant the doubt. He's about to loose his bonus, but the fact is compared to the disturbance of Bromikey this bisexual clown is a flat out rookie.

Bisexual go over to BroMikeys desk and get some pointers you need the help of a senior disturber.
In the end all you are going to be out of a job....

Tomorrow I'll show you the GEN frame, then I gotta wind and tune the coils. That is as long as the power don't go out. Lightning everywhere tonight.

Stay Tuned!!!!

Matt
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  #4071  
Old 07-29-2018, 04:11 AM
bistander bistander is offline
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duty cycle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
93% duty cycle. No matter the speed.
Looks more like ~50% on Gotuluc's scope.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg ScopeMattMtrc.jpg (23.5 KB, 200 views)
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  #4072  
Old 07-29-2018, 05:12 AM
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Turion Turion is offline
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Lol

Matt,
Once you show them they won't have any more excuses for not building this except $$. What will they have to whine about?

But don't worry. At least one of them will claim that it's a "fluff charge" on the battery and it has REALLY lost voltage but we don't know how to measure it. Or you are using faulty meters or something.

They won't be able to get it through their heads that it is for real. I know all the whiner tricks. I have been observing them for ten years.
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  #4073  
Old 07-29-2018, 11:24 AM
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Hello everyone,

I am going to start ordering supplies for the motor modification and was wondering of those of you who have built it could you please post a parts list. My goal is to make absolutely sure I am buying all of the recommend stuff.

It would also be nice to get as much as I can off Amazon so it is a one stop shop to get the parts to build this motor.

The plan is to build and test the motor and post all the results. When I have it done I will build another one and send it to one of the people in this group to test as well.

Getting excited!!



-Altrez
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  #4074  
Old 07-29-2018, 11:48 AM
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Youtube link

Quote:
Originally Posted by altrez View Post
Hello everyone,

I am going to start ordering supplies for the motor modification and was wondering of those of you who have built it could you please post a parts list. My goal is to make absolutely sure I am buying all of the recommend stuff.

It would also be nice to get as much as I can off Amazon so it is a one stop shop to get the parts to build this motor.

The plan is to build and test the motor and post all the results. When I have it done I will build another one and send it to one of the people in this group to test as well.

Getting excited!!



-Altrez
Hey Altrez,
Try this YouTube link:
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCGVcH_sVjarbs-vvfSeUQ8w

I'm sure Matthew will give more info as he sees you want to build this modification of his motor. But these videos got me started.

wantomake
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  #4075  
Old 07-29-2018, 11:55 AM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wantomake View Post
Hey Altrez,
Try this YouTube link:
https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCGVcH_sVjarbs-vvfSeUQ8w

I'm sure Matthew will give more info as he sees you want to build this modification of his motor. But these videos got me started.

wantomake
Thank you wanttomake. I will be ordering parts next week and posting everything I do to help everyone move forward.

-Altrez
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  #4076  
Old 07-29-2018, 12:11 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...7WsknDG4439vV3

Thats the instructions in case you didn't have them. You just need wire. I wanna say 600ft of 24 awg will do the motor. 3 strands per winding. Can't remember exactly how much it takes. Some of the motors will take a skate board bearing.

https://www.amazon.com/Ceramic-Beari...563J3TZH9KE6Y2


If you have set of calipers you can measure the inside spots for bearings see if the ceramic will fit, Or you can just buy a set of regular bearings. The stock bearing aren't great.

You might want to be able to tune past the screws so some thing to clamps the motor together from end to end. I didn't do this except to test and then I built a new brush plate that mounted on the back with the adjustment prebuilt into it, but I gotta CNC to make those things, not so easy without it.

I can't think of anything else.

**Added this.. You may get extra wire in case your first attempt fails. Its not an uncommon thing. Better to have wire and not need it .....

Matt
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Last edited by Matthew Jones; 07-29-2018 at 12:18 PM.
  #4077  
Old 07-29-2018, 12:16 PM
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altrez altrez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...7WsknDG4439vV3

Thats the instructions in case you didn't have them. You just need wire. I wanna say 600ft of 24 awg will do the motor. 3 strands per winding. Can't remember exactly how much it takes. Some of the motors will take a skate board bearing.

https://www.amazon.com/Ceramic-Beari...563J3TZH9KE6Y2


If you have set of calipers you can measure the inside spots for bearings see if the ceramic will fit, Or you can just buy a set of regular bearings. The stock bearing aren't great.

You might want to be able to tune past the screws so some thing to clamps the motor together from end to end. I didn't do this except to test and then I built a new brush plate that mounted on the back with the adjustment prebuilt into it, but I gotta CNC to make those things, not so easy without it.

I can't think of anything else.

Matt
Will this wire work?

https://smile.amazon.com/Remington-I...wg+magnet+wire

-Altrez
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  #4078  
Old 07-29-2018, 02:50 PM
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https://www.amazon.com/Remington-Ind...ZB9AB1NMN0EG5V

This is 200 Deg C wire. This will hold up better under a work load.

Matt
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  #4079  
Old 07-29-2018, 03:09 PM
bistander bistander is offline
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DC motor control links

Quote:
Originally Posted by altrez View Post
Hello bistander,

Do you have some links you could share on this?

Thanks!!

-Altrez
Hi,

It's been years since I've looked. Back then there were numerous tutorials, white papers, etc which were very good. Not so today. This one isn't too bad.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...xVLfcnptIj07JJ

This one is a bit more advanced but looks good. Haven't read it yet. Maybe tonight. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...E6sCoXWgPm-i63

Regards,

bi
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  #4080  
Old 07-29-2018, 07:13 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Just a little update, ya'll can see where I am going with this.

https://youtu.be/ghMriKx8tQY

I'll post incrementally as I get little things on it together.

Lots going on this week but I am going to get it up running by next weekend.

Cheers
Matt
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