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  #3991  
Old 07-24-2018, 12:38 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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@BI
I know your probing for something to be wrong, and unfortunately in process of looking you didn't listen to what I said.

The yellow clip is to hold the multi meter (I didn't mention that), The current is high because I am stepping up to near 36 volt. Thats modified motor which you have no experience with at 24 volt runs about 1.5 amp no load. The jumpy current is because the motor discharges back to source, a good portion of we put in it and the BEMF. Analogs jump around to.
A scope is the only probe that will average out the RMS value of the current and make it appear stable. The only thing that limits the current going into the motor is time on. Its in constant inrush state.
Unlike the motor your using which is conventional and throws 85% of its current away just charging the coils after the initial inrush and first rotation. This is pretty documented stuff in this community, especially how in efficient and underpowered conventional motors are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wantomake View Post
Matthew,
I have another longer type my1016 motor that I want to modify and use as a smaller generator.
Since the rotor is longer would I use the same method as the prime mover motor? Or different awg, number of turns, and method of winding on the rotor at 40,30,30 turns?
I like the videos. Was going to setup the same way but, my marine batteries are 115 amp hours. The test would be too long and the motor way too hot.
wantomake
If your going to use it as a generator Instead of using 3 strand of 24 I would use 1 strand and go for the voltage, then use a regulator. Either way though a motor converted is going to find away to slow down unless you can get 10 ohms of resistance on that rotor per coil. Thats going to be like 28 or 30 awg pretty useless. The rotor has alot of iron mass and the ratio of copper needed to get it to accelerate and produce any real current just won't fit on it.

I would save the motor, give me a few days I am putting a small little gen together. If it works I can send you the pieces and a some shaft, probably bearings too. You'll have to get the wire though you'll need a 11lb spool for both coils. You already have the magnets.
The modified motor should be able to get the rotor up to speed enough to cause the acceleration.

Email me and let me know.

Matt
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Last edited by Matthew Jones; 07-24-2018 at 02:25 PM.

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  #3992  
Old 07-24-2018, 02:31 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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My tests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
...
I know your probing for something to be wrong, and unfortunately in process of looking you didn't listen to what I said. ...
Hey, I was just giving another data set. I'm looking to understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
...
Unlike the motor your using which is conventional and throws 85% of its current away just charging the coils after the initial inrush and first rotation. This is pretty documented stuff in this community, especially how in efficient and underpowered conventional motors are.
...
I don't understand how a motor "throws 85% of its current away". You can see the current into the motor is equal to the current out of the motor, always.

"how inefficient and underpowered conventional motors are." This is BS. Yes, I've seen that several places on this forum. It is opinions of those who do not understand how motors actually work. Electric motors are extremely efficient and designed to meet the appropriate power requirements. But that is off topic.

Are you opposed to me duplicating your experiments even without the modded motor and posting resulting data? I thought you wanted folks to build and test.

Regards,

bi
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  #3993  
Old 07-24-2018, 02:59 PM
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Matt, out of curiosity - are you measuring current between the pos of the battery and pos input to the Boost? or on the negative side?

If it's on the pos side then your measuring both boost and motor current combined and your readings/time may be inaccurate. You might want to double check that...
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  #3994  
Old 07-24-2018, 03:06 PM
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Efficiency???

Bi,
When you speak of efficiency of a motor you are thinking of how much of the input energy is CONVERTED to mechanical energy, are you not?

When WE speak of the efficiency of a motor we think of how much of the input energy is or CAN BE returned without being used. Which is “MORE” efficient?
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  #3995  
Old 07-24-2018, 03:50 PM
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Reply

Matt,
Sent you an email.

wantomake
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  #3996  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:37 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
Hey, I was just giving another data set. I'm looking to understand.

I don't understand how a motor "throws 85% of its current away". You can see the current into the motor is equal to the current out of the motor, always.

"how inefficient and underpowered conventional motors are." This is BS. Yes, I've seen that several places on this forum. It is opinions of those who do not understand how motors actually work. Electric motors are extremely efficient and designed to meet the appropriate power requirements. But that is off topic.

Are you opposed to me duplicating your experiments even without the modded motor and posting resulting data? I thought you wanted folks to build and test.

Regards,

bi
You can feel free to do what ever you want, but building contrary to what was outlined and reporting the fail over and over is little mundane. We get it it doesn't work for you, we told you it wouldn't.
Peter Lindemann, has PHD in motor/generator science. He has a lot of books and material and on the subject. I have built and designed several very efficient motors in line with the principles he outlines. I know first hand why and how they work. If you have problem with my opinion based on my experience then go argue with him.
Also if you feel the need to challenge everything said than do so based on the material at hand and replicate the project as outlined, or go away.
Thank you for your understanding for our need to move forward...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post
Matt, out of curiosity - are you measuring current between the pos of the battery and pos input to the Boost? or on the negative side?
If it's on the pos side then your measuring both boost and motor current combined and your readings/time may be inaccurate. You might want to double check that...
I'll do that. In fact I was going to try to measure the whole thing top to bottom on the next go around.


Matt
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  #3997  
Old 07-24-2018, 06:51 PM
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Hello All,

Got my boost converters in.



Testing soon!

-Altrez
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  #3998  
Old 07-24-2018, 07:34 PM
bistander bistander is online now
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Peter Lindemann

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
...
Peter Lindemann, has PHD in motor/generator science. ...
Hardly. I can find no evidence he has any real degree from a real university or college. This is how he became Dr. Lindemann.

Quote:
In the Spring of 1999, Peter was nominated by the late Dr. Robert Adams of New Zealand for a Doctorate degree to the Board of Governors of the Open International University of Alternative Medicine in Colombo, Sri Lanka. After a 9 month review of past experience and published work, he was granted a Doctorate of Science degree (honorus causa) in Complimentary Medicine, based on his previous life work.
Quote from: Dr. Peter Lindemann | Free Energy

Lindemann is among those to whom I referred when I said this: "It is opinions of those who do not understand how motors actually work." I encourage you to seek the truth motors and generators.

BTW, I did attempt to engage him in a discussion concerning physics where we disagreed. He simply went away and then shortly retired from this forum. I welcome an opportunity to discuss his opinions of why, as you say, motors are inefficient and underpowered and how 85% of the current is thrown away.

Regards,

bi

ps. Sorry for off topic. Please drop it and return to testing.
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  #3999  
Old 07-24-2018, 07:53 PM
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I think if I am not mistaken that the my1016 is around 75% efficient and from my tests of stock motors I would say its even better then that.

-Altrez
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  #4000  
Old 07-24-2018, 08:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by altrez View Post
Hello All,

Got my boost converters in.



Testing soon!

-Altrez

Good to hear.
I am going to film a couple of tests that address this issue with ground side.

Matt
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  #4001  
Old 07-24-2018, 08:58 PM
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altrez altrez is offline
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To All,

Does anyone know if there is something I can buy on Amazon to couple the two motors together fairly easily?

Thanks!!

-Altrez
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  #4002  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:37 PM
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Couplet

https://m.ebay.com/itm/CNC-Motor-Fle...8mm+shaft.TRS0

https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Helica...GuL&ref=plSrch
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Last edited by Turion; 07-24-2018 at 09:46 PM.
  #4003  
Old 07-24-2018, 10:23 PM
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Matthew Jones Matthew Jones is offline
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So this video addresses Dragons concerns about ground side measurement. Well somewhat anyway. You see my point of view and it should give you something to think about.

If the currents are equal we are loosing power, it might even be power that we had nothing to do with, just an environmental generation of power.

I am trying to make people think, because with thought comes the resolution. We might even find more power than we are putting in if we can find an answer to why the 2 have to be so different.

If the Boost converter is only only contributing what you see on the ground side measurement and the hot measurement is the combination of the 2 sides converging, then why is it flowing through the inductor? Why doesn't the ground reflect everything that moves through the inductor? Can we just build up the current and allow it to flow freely while limiting the amount we add?

To me the answer to what is happening is clear. There is more power hear then we can account for and we are trying to resolve it with the tools we have been given, while those tools may be flawed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv5r...ature=youtu.be

Just think about it.

Matt
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Last edited by Matthew Jones; 07-24-2018 at 10:26 PM.
  #4004  
Old 07-24-2018, 10:28 PM
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Thank you so much!!

-Altrez
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  #4005  
Old 07-25-2018, 12:30 AM
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This is basically what I was saying... Fig 1 shows a basic layout of the diagram Dave posted and bistander is working with. ( minus the generator portion ).

We can see there is 2 current paths that are shared on the positive side - The boost circuit running between positive and negative of the battery and the motor circuit running on the potential between the boost coil ends.

The amp meter on the shared positive will read both currents, the one on the neg side will read only that being drawn by the boost converter.

Fig 2 shows a 2 battery system with 2 separate loads, one for each battery but the positive line is shared. Even though each load requires 5 amps the shared line sees both currents flowing.

Measuring the combined currents on the positive side might be misleading, also the run time based on battery capacity would be off to some degree...

That's all I was pointing out...
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File Type: png explanation.PNG (10.2 KB, 50 views)
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  #4006  
Old 07-25-2018, 01:10 AM
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Ya I am not arguing with you I think your right, but what I am saying is, should the boost show a current on the ground side? And because it does where is the current coming from? We aren't pushing any current towards ground... I could see it being balanced if we looped back to ground but we are not..

Now if those shared current are passing through the boost converter and making it to the motor then that current is all being used by the motor and the count on the ground side is just the contribution by the boost converter. Either way 4+ amps was going through the converter to the motor, it had no where else to go. If it went to ground the motor wouldn't run and that would mean the efficiency drops off and what we see on the ground side is waisted power.

So boost converter does this: It pulls current from the positive pole of the battery into the inductor. The induction in the inductor stalls the current making it rise to a higher voltage. The switch shuts off the inductor discharges over time through the output diode. The smoothing caps keep it at the required voltage by leveling it over time.

Now we take that current at higher voltage now, run it through the motor, discharge it out the motor send it back to the battery. It hits the beginning of the amp meter raises the current over the contributed energy, and because it already high voltage skip over the top of the inductor and goes into the motor along with what ever the inductor just put in.
If it wasn't doing that it would hit the battery and NOT show up as current flowing. BY your own diagram.

So is the ground current valid for anything other than showing what is contributed. Because the watts past through the motor are what matter, or do they not matter and we are only concerned with what comes out of the battery. Because if that was case it would be horse power measurement obviously more work could be done on 4 amps in the motor than 3 amps. So either way we come out ahead. One or the other is the best way to measure but either way that current is going into the motor.

There is only so many ways to put it...

Matt
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Last edited by Matthew Jones; 07-25-2018 at 01:12 AM.
  #4007  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:15 AM
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The same drawing marked up...

I see 2 separate circuits making up 2 individual current loops sharing a common path.
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File Type: png explanation2.png (69.3 KB, 58 views)
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  #4008  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:27 AM
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I did a quick test. Here is the start.





Here is boost converter.



Here is running.



Just the small razor motor stock.

The motor made odd sounds while running not sure why.

-Altrez
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  #4009  
Old 07-25-2018, 04:13 AM
ricards ricards is offline
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Currents.png

This is how I see it..

The red line is the current when the Inductor of boost module is charged
The Greed Line is the combined current that charges the cap when it is less 12v and the inductive discharge of the Inductor when the switch is cutoff..
The Blue Line is the current of the to the motor-battery series on the parallel with charged cap of the boost module when on switch on position..
The Brown is the Inductive discharge path of the motor on switch off position.

ya'll see the average. on the wires.
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  #4010  
Old 07-25-2018, 12:04 PM
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Hello,

Here are a few more results from my test last night. Lets start with what I am seeing coming from my battery going to the boost converter.



This next pic is a amp test from the positive of the boost converter going into the positive of the motor while the motor is running.



As you can see it is less then then what I am measuring coming from the battery into the boost converter.

This is a test from the negative of the motor going to the positive of the battery.



So almost the same on each leg.

And here is a pic on the main battery voltage while running.



That was a basic test of the first part of the circuit.

I feel like there is about 800ma going back into the positive connection of the main battery. so it takes about ~400ma to run the motor with no load on my test setup.

Did I miss anything here?



-Altrez
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Last edited by altrez; 07-25-2018 at 12:31 PM.
  #4011  
Old 07-25-2018, 02:59 PM
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Ricards excellent rendition of the currents flowing in the circuit clearly show that they all converge on the positive line adding to the total average of current.

I was simply focusing on the positive line currents pointing out that this might not be a good measuring point to assess capacity and run time. It wasn't my intention for it to become a big deal... just an observation.
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  #4012  
Old 07-26-2018, 01:14 AM
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Yeah not a big deal, but this is all about efficiency right?.. If I have my Inductive discharges shunted through the diode, very little or no energy flows back to the source battery..

As matt stated we should only read like 10% of the current on the ground side, because most current flows back through the motor coils back to the source battery.. In bistander case that’s not the scenario.. so there’s something wrong..

I see the circuit as still the 3 battery circuit, just inverted. With a diode and additional circuitry..

And I don’t know where the probes are on the motor when voltage is measured.. but it should read the voltage of the boost module.. maybe adding additional capacitor bank should help??.. so the capacitor is not fully discharged to 12v on motor-on time?..

For a proof of concept circuit.. it is really easy to disprove this by putting meters all over the place.. like bistander did.. Intentionally or not..

But for a learning circuit.. this is really something..
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  #4013  
Old 07-26-2018, 01:34 AM
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Reminder

If you will remember, I SAID it would not work with a stock motor. Even THEN, your success will be determined by the output of your generator. Lots of things to play with here.
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  #4014  
Old 07-26-2018, 01:50 AM
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Can someone please give me some feedback on my tests and let me know if I did something wrong?

-Altrez
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  #4015  
Old 07-26-2018, 02:54 AM
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Efficiency of a motor

I should also mention that some of you here measure the efficiency of a motor by what % of the input is converted to mechanical energy. I measure the efficiency of a motor by how much of the input I collect and recycle while still getting it to do the required amount of work. A difference in perspective, but reason for us to believe that some motors you call “highly efficient” are what we might call “ crap.” In some cases I don’t CARE how much input goes into the motor because I am getting such a high % of it returned. It is not input vs output, it is consumption vs output which is a whole different animal.
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Last edited by Turion; 07-26-2018 at 02:57 AM.
  #4016  
Old 07-26-2018, 04:22 AM
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Diagrams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
If you will remember, I SAID it would not work with a stock motor. Even THEN, your success will be determined by the output of your generator. Lots of things to play with here.
But Matt's latest video experiment used no motor, just 3 batteries, a boost converter and a led lamp as a load. I intend to replicate it within the next few days.

Matt, any chance of posting a diagram so I get it right and can use it for data presentation?

Altrez, I might comment but am unsure which circuit you built and what your load was. Can you post a diagram or photo of the entire circuit with connections plainly visible?

I do like having a number of people offering analysis.

Regards,

bi
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  #4017  
Old 07-26-2018, 08:29 AM
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Circuit

Matt’s latest post using the light instead of the motor was to examine exactly what was going on in the circuit, regarding movement of current, NOT to achieve the goal the circuit was designed to achieve. When you are looking to understand something you take it down to the most basic parts that still allow it to function as a circuit, and then ADD parts to see the effect they have on the operation of the circuit. The things we want to happen in the circuit are NOT going to happen with a light bulb as a load. Or without a modified motor, or without the right generator. Those are the facts as we know them. At least with THIS BASIC CURCUIT. You can either build the correct circuit and see what we see or not. I could care less. You believe I have a responsibility to PROVE this works, but YOU have NO responsibility to actually REPLICATE the correct circuit? Please! Why should I bother if you can’t build it correctly anyway.
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  #4018  
Old 07-26-2018, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
I should also mention that some of you here measure the efficiency of a motor by what % of the input is converted to mechanical energy. I measure the efficiency of a motor by how much of the input I collect and recycle while still getting it to do the required amount of work. A difference in perspective, but reason for us to believe that some motors you call “highly efficient” are what we might call “ crap.” In some cases I don’t CARE how much input goes into the motor because I am getting such a high % of it returned. It is not input vs output, it is consumption vs output which is a whole different animal.
Hello Dave,

I have never thought about it that way. That makes a lot more sense when working with this setup.



-Altrez
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  #4019  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:10 AM
bistander bistander is online now
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Burden of proof, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
... You believe I have a responsibility to PROVE this works, but YOU have NO responsibility to actually REPLICATE the correct circuit? ...
The Burden of Proof


Quote:
If a person claims that X exists and is real then the burden is on that person to supply some support for that claim, some evidence or proof that others can and should examine before accepting it. It is incorrect to think that X exists and is real until someone can prove that there is no X. It is also wrong to think that just because you can not prove that X exists that does not mean that X does not exist and therefore X does exist.
X = greater output power than input power.

Read that article. Research "burden of proof". It is not just me, it is the rest of society that believes the burden of proof resides with the one making the claim.

Regards,

bi
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Last edited by bistander; 07-26-2018 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Typo
  #4020  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bistander View Post
But Matt's latest video experiment used no motor, just 3 batteries, a boost converter and a led lamp as a load. I intend to replicate it within the next few days.

Altrez, I might comment but am unsure which circuit you built and what your load was. Can you post a diagram or photo of the entire circuit with connections plainly visible?

I do like having a number of people offering analysis.

Regards,

bi
Hello bistander,

I replicated the first part of Turion's one battery circuit with a stock motor and no load. My idea is to get a basic understanding of it and then add the modified motor.

The images I posted earlier are from the first part of the circuit with just the stock motor hooked up.

These are the basic results of the first part of my test.

I used a 7.2 ah battery that started around 13.1 volts. with the motor and boost converter hooked up I documented 10.83 volts and 1.2 amps going into the boost. The boost was running at 26 volts.

From the boost to the motor's positive side the amp draw was 0.783. From the negative side of the motor to the positive side of the battery the amp reading was 0.800

While running, the battery tested at 12.5 volts and total run time for the first test was ~6 minutes. After a short time the battery had went back up to starting voltage of ~13.1

This leads me to believe that even when not running a modified motor you still can clearly see some energy recovery back into the battery. So with that being said it looks like to me at least on this very basic level the one battery circuit Dave posted starting at the first loop does seem to work as expected.

Please correct me if I made a mistake or did not measure things correctly!



-Altrez
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