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  #331  
Old 03-18-2012, 11:15 AM
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It just occured to me that if you had enough bad batteries in parallel on a run that you may be able to use them to charge back the good batteries somehow when they are resting. These would have to be bad batteries that still took a charge. Then there would not be any losses at all.

George
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  #332  
Old 03-18-2012, 11:26 AM
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Hey all, had some time to think at work today, and I have an idea that might be worth a shot
Has anyone who has this setup working tried using diodes to and from the motor between the positives? I am thinking that perhaps if we direct the energy out of the bad battery, with a diode to the motor, and then diode from the motor into the pos of the good batteries, maybe we will see some charging on the good side, without having to use the aluminum, which adds resistance to the load.
If this works better with large battery cables, yet with the higher resistance aluminum there is evidence for charging on the positive side, maybe just directing the energy flow would perform the same thing, without limiting the potential of the system?
I have one more day of work to go, and then I will try this on monday if no one else either has or does try it first.
My thinking is, since we are splitting positives, polarity here may not be an issue, and perhaps the batteries are directing the charge on their own, in which case diodes would only hurt the situation. However, if we can tell the energy we want to pull the load through B3, and back into B1, then maybe creating our own polarity will serve to charge B1 and 2, and still allow us to use large loads on B3 with no damage...
just a thought.
I can't wait until I am done with work for the week, and can get back to some serious testing.

N8
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  #333  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:10 PM
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Interesting idea Neight. The only diodes I have used is to the battery I was charging off the generator in my last run.

Further to my last post. Does anyone know about how these small chargers work. I have an old one I got from Wal Mart and took it apart and hooked it up to my bad batteries that still had charge, to try and charge battery 1. The attachment shows a newer version of the same thing this one is uses a lithium ion battery instead of a slab like the old one.

George
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  #334  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:39 PM
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Charger

I also have that newer Stanley lithium Ion charger I mentioned in my last
post. I bought it for the battery to use with my laptop. It could be hooked
up to the load when doing a run and it would charge up. Later it could be used
to charge battery 1 and 2. I am just afraid of damaging it, when hooked up
on the load since I have already blown so many 12v bulbs. Maybe using an
inverter and the AC adapter for it would be safer than charging it directly off
the load.

George
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  #335  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shylo View Post
as I put loads on it ,the speed of the fan decreased ,but the loads on 3b increased???

How many loads can we put on this???
Very cool stuff.......thanks people.....shylo


Quote:
Originally Posted by Turion View Post
You must MATCH the load on the motor with a load on battery 3.... You can continue to add loads to battery three, but add a load, wait five minutes, add a load, wait five minutes. At some point the load will cause the motor to drop out of the "zone" Now you have two choices. Reduce the load on battery 3, or INCREASE the load on the motor to get it back in the zone.

Dave Bowling
This is from my very first post. At some point, when you add a load to battery three, it will cause the motor to slow down. THEN you balance by adding load to the motor.
You can keep adding loads AS LONG AS THEY BALANCE. You will reach a limit set by the load your motor will run. EVERY motor has its limits. Then they burn baby burn.
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  #336  
Old 03-18-2012, 01:31 PM
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Cool Ready To Rock

Greetings, to all, and thanks to George and Dave for bringing me (a very low rung on the clever electronics ladder as compared to you street smart savvy guys) on board this exciting research in order it can be applied in everyday life for all to benefit from once it is practical and functional.

My scooter will be ready tomorrow for initial street tests in the real world.Two batteries are standard wired series for 24vdc. I will wire up the third battery with the motor as per your Tesla switch idea. Hopefully it will do wheelies(I only kiddin). I intend to rewind the motor and have 4 wires. two for the motor, and two for using as a Back EMF(Ufopolitics)(Konehead)(Radiant Energy) to charge the batteries efficiently. I am also working on using model aircraft/car, LiPo battery system, with my motor as per Ufopolitics idea who is also a Brilliant Researcher on this forum:
My Motors got me to Tap into Radiant Energy

As far as using an Hydrometer for checking SLA batteries-since my scooter has them-my research indicated that due to how SLA function/designed it is not useable idea for measurement of good cell bad cell etc. SLA (and GEL)batteries are not like car lead flooded acid batteries. I found this out after buying an Hydrometer. After putting more water into each cell to correct level, I could not understand why the cells started blowing chunks? After research found they produce there own water, which is why they are sealed maintenance free with a pressure release valve, and suitable for aircraft etc.

Anyway, guys, I feel it is important to have a test bed one is using under proper practical conditions out on the street so to speak, under real loads. A test bench in the lab is not always reliable though very helpful for obvious reasons. Hey, I always like to think and operate outside the box. Zero Defects is one thing, but Zero Based thinking is quite another when it comes to efficiency of workload on our mind. Take it easy and stay frosty,

Power to the people!
Love and Honour
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  #337  
Old 03-18-2012, 01:45 PM
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wingstalysis,

Good luck with the field testing! Don't go too far from home on that first drive! We'll be pulling for ya.
Dave
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  #338  
Old 03-18-2012, 01:57 PM
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Cool Smoke the tires

Thanks, Bro',
The hardest thing for me is driving an Mobility Scooter in public. My Ego hates it, as others think I am disabled, and that's far from the truth.Guess my Ego needs to be taught a big lesson in humility! It's going to be an interesting field test Dave. I will keep you informed as to progress etc. I am hoping that it will never need an external battery charger. Hope springs eternal.

Take it easy Dave, and thanks for everything you've done on this forum for all of us to benefit from.

Love and Honour,
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  #339  
Old 03-18-2012, 02:03 PM
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wingstalysis

Hope things work out. I was wondering if you were going to have loads on battery three ? Like charging another battery or light bulbs or something.

Good Luck

George
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  #340  
Old 03-18-2012, 03:38 PM
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That was my concern too...how to balance the load, but it should be interesting anyway.

Dave
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  #341  
Old 03-18-2012, 03:59 PM
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Cool

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Hope things work out. I was wondering if you were going to have loads on battery three ? Like charging another battery or light bulbs or something.

Good Luck

George
Yo! George,
The third battery is going to be connected, as per your circuit diagram. Thus my dc motor on scooter will be connected to positives of battery 1 (1 and 2 in series = 24vdc)and 3(in parallel, sulphated but voltage about 10v before I discharge it to 1.5v after initial test). As the load(motor)my weight, and varying load as I drive up and over sidewalks, and road will indicate what is going to happen. That is even if it is drivable from start of trial? Tomorrow 19th march 2012, Great Yarmouth Seafront is D day-if it don't rain-UK weather sucks big time..

Love and honour,
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  #342  
Old 03-18-2012, 05:19 PM
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wingstalysis,
The way you describe how you will wire the 3BGS has me a little concerned.Please make sure you check the wiring diagram at the bottom of post #1. That IS the correct way to wire it....

And there have to be two loads.
1. First is the load you put on the motor, which will obviously be the mechanical system that connects it to the scooter to drive it, plus the weight of the scooter and YOUR weight.
2. There must also be a load placed on battery three to BALANCE the load on the motor. That could be a headlight, whatever, but if those loads are not balanced, you will drain batteries one and two. They will last longer than normal, but will STILL discharge much faster than they should. In my opinion, it will be incredibly difficult to keep the loads balanced when you go up and down hills, accelerate, take off from a dead stop, etc. Those all put stress on the motor to perform. It will be an interesting experiment.

Hope this helps. I want you to be successful!!
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  #343  
Old 03-18-2012, 05:40 PM
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for concideration

Untried, untested unknown quantity, would it fit in battery three position? .. I donít know but I include the link for interest Daniel McFarland Cook's Electro-Magnetic Battery
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  #344  
Old 03-18-2012, 05:58 PM
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Cool No Worries

Hey! Kool! I checked again your first post, and again. I also have the diagram that was used by John Bedini to test the Tesla Switch. It matches yours exactly. I absorbed about the load on battery 3, and what to do and expect. Yes, I want Success, but, don't expect it, as after all you've gone through Dave, it would be wishful thinking on my part. It will be interesting to experience the road blocks I encounter. I am not going to reinvent the wheel.However, I'll make my decision on whether to proceed with this after my test runs. It's raining here now-hopefully not tomorrow. Dave, lastly which post number explains why a load on bat' 3 is necessary so I can do some thinking on it?

Dave, I do appreciate your kind input and wishes for success.

Take it easy,
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wingstalysis
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  #345  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:10 PM
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wingstalysis

There really isn't a post that explains the "WHY" of it. I wish I knew. What I do know is that in my original experiments I discovered that if I had a load on the motor....and I placed a load on battery three the motor would suddenly speed up. If I waited about 3 to 5 minutes, (and I had the right amount of load) the motor would suddenly speed up again all on its own without me doing anything. And the instant that speed up occurred there was a change in what happened to batteries one and two. The voltage on them quit dropping. In SOME cases, if I was very careful, I could actually get the voltage to go up. I was never consistent in getting it to go UP, but I could consistently get it to stay level. When the motor was NOT in this "zone" batteries one and two would slowly go down in voltage. They would last longer than normal, but they would still go down. So I call this process of getting the motor to speed up on its own "balancing the loads" which may be way off base. That's just the term I started with and I've stuck with it.

Dave

People like Peter L., John B., Matt Jones, or even Ufopolotics may have an explanation for this, but I don't know enough.
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  #346  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:37 PM
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Cool Henry Ford

Yo! Dave,
Henry always had specific specialists available to him at the touch of a button. Any problem he encountered he pressed a button to hail the necessary specialist to his presence. He thus even had the V8 block manufactured in one piece, even though he was told by many it was impossible.
I do the same Dave. That's why I stated I don't attempt to reinvent the wheel in areas foreign to my gifts. You put your finger on a button. A very important button. Someone who understands very well DC motors, and Back EMF which Ufo states is RE. Would it be possible for you to connect with specialist, Peter Lindemann, as you have with Ufo. If anyone has answers he most certainly would. It can save you light years of head scratching. Every problem has a solution, and just think how joyful you would feel when you have passed the winning post beyond your wildest dreams. Just a suggestion Bro'.
Appreciate your inputs and sharings with me on the private side.
Take it easy, and have a no worries day,

wingstalysis
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  #347  
Old 03-18-2012, 07:16 PM
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Schematics for Day 2

I've done the day 1 experiment (found a bad battery).

I've drawn a schematic for the day 2 and subsequent experiments.

I see no mystery as to why the motor starts immediately on day 2 (and, in fact tried it just before tearing down the day 1 ckt).

If you add a lamp as a "load" across B3 (bad) before the beginning of the day 2 experiment, then you are (1) changing the original experiment and (2) providing a current path through B2+B1+motor, shorting across the pooched battery, and the motor starts.

It is also possible to see why adding more loads in parallel to B3 will increase the speed of the motor. More current = more speed.

It's not obvious why, as claimed, the speed decreases past a certain point, nor why B1 and B2 don't discharge much. Although, the torque-speed curve drops off on both sides of the 100% rated, so maybe the excess loads are biasing the (mechanically loaded) motor into a slower region (more thought / discussion needed).

I agree with Matt's assessment that a super-sulphated battery acts like a capacitor (my calc was for clean plates) - the sulphation acts like an insulator, raising the dielectric constant.

So, I've drawn a second schematic showing B3 as a big fat capacitor, which is what I currently think is going on.

[It may be interesting to note that Peter L's rendition of the original Lockridge device shows a cap and some inductors (the trifilar coil) in the circuit, as per my 3rd diagram.]

pt
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File Type: jpg B3asCap.jpg (21.6 KB, 71 views)
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  #348  
Old 03-18-2012, 08:49 PM
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pault,
Thanks for following directions first of all. And you found an error in my instructions which I just fixed. It now says to start it up just for a minute with no load at the beginning of the second day. You will find it starts immediately whether that load is there or not. Why?
You are right in that WITH a load there, the connection through the load bypasses battery three. Without a load, it does not, so why would it start immediately on day two when it would NOT on day one.

if the delay in starting you saw yesterday were because of a difference in potential between the set of two batteries in series and the single battery, when could that potential possibly be more different than when you have just charged the two main batteries while at the same time, discharging the bad battery all night long with a bulb on it?

If the delay yesterday was because there was not enough juice in the bad battery, how could there possibly be LESS juice than there is right now, when you have drained the bad battery ALL NIGHT LONG. It should have NO juice. None at ALL. So you should be having to put some juice into the battery for the motor to start. It should take LONGER to start than it did yesterday, and yet the motor started immediately.

It is my belief that we are talking about some kind of magnetic alignment that takes place in a bad battery and continues as long as there is a load on the battery, and also lasts for a couple days after the load is removed. If you can let it sit for a couple days, hook it back into the system, flip the switch, and once again the motor will not start immediately.

If you have ANOTHER explanation, I would love to hear it. This is mine, and I'm sticking with it. LOL
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  #349  
Old 03-18-2012, 09:03 PM
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It's not obvious why, as claimed, the speed decreases past a certain point

pt
I'm not sure I know what you mean by this, and don't believe I've ever claimed this...unless you are talking about the following...

"The motor will speed up when you put a load on battery three. If you wait about five minutes (and the load is balanced) the motor will speed up AGAIN, on its own. You can continue to add small loads and wait five minutes after each one. At some point, the load you add will cause the system to drop out of balance and the motor will slow down. Now you have two choices. You can reduce the load on battery three or increase the load on the motor to rebalance the system."

If THAT's what you are talking about, yes I definitely HAVE said that...several times. You keep adding loads back and forth, keeping the system in balance and the voltage on batteries one and two will remain constant while the system is in balance. I can't wait for you to see that, as others here HAVE been able to get a balanced system, so I'm not the only one. Hope you get there man. Good luck. Do it in baby steps. the smaller you can make your increases, the better chance you have of getting the system to balance. Then replace all your small loads with a larger one that would have the same draw. Once you have done it once, it becomes easier to repeat. I pretty much have a feel for mine and don't have too much trouble gutting my motor into the zone...at least most days, as long as my load on the motor is constant.

And yes, I would LOVE for someone to explain this one too. Several people have theories, but we don't really KNOW yet. Maybe some day.

Dave
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  #350  
Old 03-19-2012, 12:44 AM
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Just an update, the replacement motor didn't function like the first burned motor I've been using. Bat1 and Bat2 is being consumed just like before, Maybe the motor specs must match the capacity of the bat1 and bat2. I don't even know how to do that, I've been trying all night, to replicate the situation where both bat1 and bat2 was able to charge itself and still continue to give power and load to batt3. Unfortunately it didn't happen. the replacement motor was Old 12vdc motor I manage to find it didn't have the same spec as the previous motor. I wished to could have recorded it, because there is really something in this system, I've been using the burned motor for 2 weeks I think, and I've never burned it using this system. I don't know if aluminum plays a role, but that's when it all happened, it burned the motor, destroyed two 12 volt bulbs, and charged bat1 and bat2. I'll be purchasing a new motor same type as the burned motor. I hope it'll happen again, I won't easily give up, I've seen the glimpse of what Turion said, and I think It's true.
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  #351  
Old 03-19-2012, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
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I've done the day 1 experiment (found a bad battery).

...
I agree with Matt's assessment that a super-sulphated battery acts like a capacitor (my calc was for clean plates) - the sulphation acts like an insulator, raising the dielectric constant.

So, I've drawn a second schematic showing B3 as a big fat capacitor, which is what I currently think is going on.

...
pt
One other thing to consider is the 3rd (bad) battery is providing a dipole in reverse to bat 1 and 2 creating a net differencial of positive potential between bat1 pos and bat 3 pos. A cap by itself does not do this. (An electret might)

Bat 3 would also have the highest impedance before test one. After running test one, the impedance in bat 3 is most likely lower allowing enough energy to pass for the motor to start immediately on test 2 without a load on bat 3.

Food for thought.
Alex
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  #352  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
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pault,
Thanks for following directions first of all. And you found an error in my instructions which I just fixed. It now says to start it up just for a minute with no load at the beginning of the second day...
Hi Turion,

I waited for your reply, before commencing to step 2.

I used the same circuit as day 1, (no loads), and the motor started after a few moments. Just as you said.

I would suggest a change to the post #1 instructions, to take the "resting" voltage of B3 before running the experiments.

I believe that my "bad" battery showed more voltage (about +3V) today than it did yesterday, but I didn't record yesterday's voltage (I think that I read the voltage as close to 0V, but I didn't record it). As soon as I brought the circuit up (day 2), I got a reading of +19V across B3, instead of +23V yesterday (day 1).

I read through the battery bible chapters 4,5,6,7,8,10 and got the impression that a badly sulphated battery can be brought back using a gentle current.

It seems that this is what happened to my B3.

OTOH, the rest of the effects in this circuit remain unexplained.

pt
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
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I'm not sure I know what you mean by this, and don't believe I've ever claimed this...unless you are talking about the following...
...
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. We are using different words.

pt
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  #354  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
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One other thing to consider is the 3rd (bad) battery is providing a dipole in reverse to bat 1 and 2 creating a net differencial of positive potential between bat1 pos and bat 3 pos. A cap by itself does not do this. (An electret might)

Bat 3 would also have the highest impedance before test one. After running test one, the impedance in bat 3 is most likely lower allowing enough energy to pass for the motor to start immediately on test 2 without a load on bat 3.

Food for thought.
Alex
Very good explanation Alex. Makes a lot of sense.

@Sanskara316

The right type of motor seems to be important to getting successful
results with this system. I have been lucky that the motors I have been
using have worked so well as motors and also as generators. If I could
only get a solid, stable motor/generator arrangement to hold together,
I would be very happy. The other interesting thing is that many different
types of motors do work with this, so we are not limited to using one
specific type of motor.

George
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
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One other thing to consider is the 3rd (bad) battery is providing a dipole in reverse to bat 1 and 2 creating a net differencial of positive potential between bat1 pos and bat 3 pos. A cap by itself does not do this. (An electret might)

Bat 3 would also have the highest impedance before test one. After running test one, the impedance in bat 3 is most likely lower allowing enough energy to pass for the motor to start immediately on test 2 without a load on bat 3.

Food for thought.
Alex
A completely dead B3 would not produce a dipole, just a dead "open".

If there is no path for current, then the potential is equal "everywhere".

If we measure the potential from the -ve of B2 to the +ve of B1, we get +24V.

If no current flows, then that SAME potential is measured at the input of the motor +24V.

If no current flows, then that SAME potential is measured at the OTHER end of the motor +24V.

If no current flows, then that SAME potential is measured at the + end of B3, +24V.

That is exactly what we see.

As the sulphation of B3 is chipped away, some current begins to flow, and we see a voltage drop across the motor.

As the voltage drop across the motor increases, it begins to turn. V=IR, as the voltage drop increases, the current increases. As the current increases the motor begins to turn.

pt
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:58 AM
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Sanskara316,

Try reversing the two motor wires. Some DC motors, because of brush placement, work better one way than the other.
Dave
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:12 AM
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pault

Your explanation seems to make perfect sense also. I don't think that a bad
battery without anything (completely dead) will work. It has to have a little
something in it to begin to work.

George
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:26 AM
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I have had batteries that showed around five or six volts on day one that showed less than one volt the second day after being drained all night and resting for a few hours. I'm pretty sure the resting voltage would have been less than the 6 volts they had the day before, yet the motor started immediately when it would NOT start on day one. Since my setup hasn't been up and running in more than a week, I will go through the whole process either tomorrow or the next day and report back.

I still have a tiny bit of welding to finish up tomorrow, and then I will have my energizer off my bench and will have three different setups of this system running within a day or so. I will keep the gauges on the one that is performing best, and use meters to spot check the rest.

And I wil try to do a video walk through of the whole process of balancing a load and the result. It will probably be too long for YouTube, but I can download it to another place, post a link, and YOU will be able to download it and play it in iTunes or other media player.

I have a friend who is an electrical engineer, and he is going to come over and take a look at what I have once I have a setup running correctly. I have a scope, meters and gauges, and he is a real skeptic, so it could be interesting. I will do my best to video as much of that as possible.

Dave
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:37 AM
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Sanskara316 Sanskara316 is offline
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@ George and Dave
Tnx for the tips, I'll try this again tonight.
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  #360  
Old 03-19-2012, 02:12 PM
pault pault is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FRC View Post
Your explanation seems to make perfect sense also. I don't think that a bad
battery without anything (completely dead) will work. It has to have a little
something in it to begin to work.

George
1. If B3 were completely dead, it would be equivalent to "no battery in position B3" (dead open circuit). None of us expects that to work.

2. @FRC: P.A. sells spider shaft couplers that fit your motors (in the section with new gears, shafts, shaft collars, bearings), similar to these

http://www.stepperworld.com/images/Couplers.jpg

3. Another data point: the first battery I tried was very dead, showing the nominal 24V across it for the whole time (15-30 minutes). Before I disconnected it, I spun the motor by hand in both directions (i.e. generation mode, similar to BEMF). In both cases the voltage across (the dead) B3 went down by many 10'ths of volts. The generated voltage had to "go" somewhere - was it pushing against the good batteries or the bad or all three? Thinking about this might give us some more clues.

pt
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