Energetic Forum

Energetic Forum (http://www.energeticforum.com/)
-   Renewable Energy (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/)
-   -   3 Battery Generating System (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/10610-3-battery-generating-system.html)

Turion 03-16-2012 02:45 PM

Geeze Duncan,
I thought I would be spending my afternoon and evening welding, but now it looks like I have to spend all night watching YouTube videos too! Thanks for your input and all that information. I already know there will be some stuff there that will take me a while to get my head around.

FRC,
That's the goal isn't it? To be able to use the 3BGS to produce more power than it consumes. And not just a little more, but significantly more.

After what Sanskara316 said about the primaries charging when using aluminum strips to connect the batteries together, I am tempted to drag out my old corroded battery cables and give them a shot, or some coaxial cable using the sheath rather than the copper core, just to see what happens with mine. I have a 30 foot roll of aluminum flashing, and a like roll of copper flashing, so maybe I will roll out the aluminum and cut some strips to use. I'd say that's a little dangerous because it's all exposed metal, but I can wrap it with electrical tape. It needs to be tested. My original system definitely charged batteries one and two, but this is really the first post here where anybody has seen that effect. I personally have seen the batteries maintain on mine, and even go up, but NOT a consistent gain. And if you can get it to do THAT, does it REALLY matter what battery is in the third position when you get the work of the motor for free? I think NOT. So definitely worth looking into.

Dave

pault 03-16-2012 03:29 PM

battery capacitance
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan (Post 184660)
.... A battery is two or more plates separated by something (AKA electrolyte) so can we agree a battery = a capacitor (all be it a huge one) ? ...

It's probably not a "huge" capacitance.

C = e0 * er * A / d.

My car battery downstairs is 24.5mm long, by 16mm wide by 18mm high. The ribs are 4mm apart. I don't know how thick the plates are, nor their separation, but I can guess and get a ballpark.

So, with 6 plates, my plate area is roughly 18 * 16 * 6 = 1728mm**2.

er, dielectric constant, of sulphuric acid is 84 and of water is 80.

Guess at plate separations of 1mm, 2mm and 3mm, punch the numbers into:

Parallel Plate Capacitor Capacitance Calculator

and we get

0.0012uF with d=1mm,
612pF with d=2mm and
408pF with d=3mm.

The caps you buy at a store have very much smaller d's (the thickness of a sheet of paper) and a lot of surface area (rolled up foil, with oily paper between layers), hence, they have a much higher capacitance.

Here's an "equivalent circuit" for a battery (although maybe NiCd)

Chapter 9: Internal Battery Resistance

Chapters 4-8 of the battery bible may provide more clues. I'll report back, if I have time to read them...

pt

Turion 03-16-2012 05:53 PM

Hey Guys,
I just got communication from someone concerned about my post that I was on a web cast on venture capital. Rest assured I am NOT looking for money to start some kind of company and planning on vanishing from the forum. I AM looking for some money with no strings attached to purchase some test equipment, and I have already found some. That was all. My intent is to continue to post info here, but I want REAL data. My $6.00 hydrometer is just not going to cut it if we are going to figure this thing out. So that's all that is about.

I have a couple contacts with big money if there was ever a need for that, but they would want to go into business, and I'm not in this to go into business. I live in the Silicon Valley in California, and we've got venture capitalists all over the place here. And my wife is in intellectual property law, so I have lots of help and advice on that front if I need it. I just want ALL of us to have access to the cheapest method to produce energy independently in our own homes, and eventually to run our cars. That's it. That's the only reason I'm spending half a day on this web cast. My parents live off the grid, and I want this for THEM.

FRC 03-16-2012 05:55 PM

pault,

Good to see you posting here.

Well since my last post I managed to get a better attachment for two motors put together. Unfortunately I managed to wreck one of my motors in the process. I am now to tired to set it up in the 3BGS. Will try it after I get some sleep. I did hook up the output to the 12v halogen bulb and it did light it brightly. I will have to find some diodes or a FWBR and try charging batteries on my next run.

George

Duncan 03-16-2012 06:25 PM

:thumbsup: I can certainly see what your saying Pault but there seems to be a certain X factor involved .. Its no longer sulphuric acid or water .. a lot of sulphate no doubt, and wow Pault viewed as a "size" the energy stored in a lead acid battery is huge (even a bad one) compared to the biggest cap I cant help but wonder if the ideal isn’t "a conditioned" heavily sulphated battery but to be absolutely honest I don’t have the answers I've just pointed to where the common answers may be. after all everything else is 100% replicable with ease .. You guys have posted the motors and their numbers also the "good batteries" and their sizes the cable sizes and connections .... Then comes the missing link .. and be under no misconception connect the “right thing” in that position however you manage to “get it by the throat” and the world is changed forever. One of you may just read something that connects the dots as I relate one system to the other .. and if that should happen .. the games over . Stick an inverter on the thing and run for ever and ever amen and I'll rejoice with you! :hug:

Turion 03-16-2012 07:28 PM

Guys,

Actually, there are THREE possible ways to achieve our goal.
1. Find a battery or substitute for the third position that makes everything work like magic.

2. Find something that causes batteries One and Two to charge, REGARDLESS of what is in the third position, because then the power from the motor is FREE, and who CARES what you can pull off battery 3 at that point. Possibly Sanskara316 hit that goal with the aluminum connections between parts. That needs to be replicated and explored.

3. Attach the motor to an energizer or generator and route some of the power back to charge batteries one and two, or put a transformer between the stack and the motor that produces enough additional power that it can charge batteries one and two, because then some or ALL of the power from the motor is free. Nobody has done that yet. We already KNOW that once you get the system balanced, the voltage drop on the primaries decreases to almost NOTHING, so if we can use a little of the power produced by either the load on battery three OR the load on the motor to help out the primaries, it is STILL a done deal.

Any way we can get to the point where we are not paying for the running motor so that we can connect it to a generator, we are THERE. Agreed?

Dave

clueless 03-16-2012 07:33 PM

Just a thought from out of the "blue"
 
I'm following this thread with excitment for its potential and unlike many things it is something I can visualize.
From the things I've read it seems the "bad battery" needs to be conditioned. What would happen if you used a desuphaltor on the bad battery (LA) with the fluids drained (dry) or straight distilled water or even wilder baking soda and vinegar.
I'm thinking that the desuphaltor will condition the plates, and baking soda might neutralize the acid and vinegar might evoke a weak response.
I'm just wondering if after the conditioning pour the slop out and run it with just water.
Like I said just a thought and it might not be feasible I have absoutley no idea.

Duncan 03-16-2012 08:05 PM

to err is human
 
Dave Its a bit like this … I know you pretty well, I’ve met you and your mate, mucked about with your Bedini toy, seen your motor I know beyond any reasonable doubt your machine operated! A good many of the folks on this thread have seen it also with their own machines ! If I had any advice to offer it would be keep aiming at what you know works, focus on the unknown (the bad battery / cap) there's a lot of hidden and suppressed information in that area anyway its all a lot easier when you believe...after all Dave that lucky accident was 1000s to one the first time! also sorry folks I did post an incorrect link in that long post (yeh I checked them) It should have been kacher cap charge.wmv - YouTube although I’ve corrected it now Best wishes Duncan:cheers:

Guruji 03-16-2012 08:09 PM

Schematic
 
Can anyone post a schematic about the motor load with batteries that you guys are talking about?
Thanks

Turion 03-16-2012 08:26 PM

Guruji,

Read post #1. The schematic is at the bottom. Loads are connected directly to battery 3 terminals, and there MUST be a load of some kind on the motor, even if that means holding onto the shaft with a gloved hand, which I DON'T recommend!

Duncan,
WILL DO! ;-)
One of the first things I want to do when I get my setup back on the bench is connect to an Earth ground on battery three.

Dave

fathershand 03-17-2012 02:05 AM

Still Working
 
Hey Dave, I'm still here and working on this 3BGS. Today, I am using 60V of batteries for my batt 1 and 2. I still have the dead 6V deep cycle battery as battery 3. For my motor, I have a 95V DC brushed motor connected by belt to an auto alternator as its load. The alternator has been opened and the 3 phase wires are brought out along with he 2 wires to the brushes. This alternator is making almost enough electricity to keep the battery for the brushes charged via a voltage doubler.

My battery 3 load is variable. I have another 12v motorcycle radiator fan, a 12V bulb, a 110V 24Watt bulb, and/or an inverter.

I blew out the inverter today. I used battery 3 for the inverter battery. In order for me to get the inverter to work a little, I had to turn off the motorcycle fan and the other bulb. I tried using the 12V bulb with the inverter, but the bulb get very bright, with green tints, and then the inverter gave a loud pop and the bulb blew and smoke came out of the inverter. I unhooked it quickly, but the damage is done.

I am thinking of hooking a large cap in series with a different inverter. Do you think this will keep the inverter from getting overloaded?

Keep up the good work guys!
Tony

Matthew Jones 03-17-2012 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duncan (Post 184698)
:thumbsup: I can certainly see what your saying Pault but there seems to be a certain X factor involved .. Its no longer sulphuric acid or water .. a lot of sulphate no doubt, and wow Pault viewed as a "size" the energy stored in a lead acid battery is huge (even a bad one) compared to the biggest cap I cant help but wonder if the ideal isn’t "a conditioned" heavily sulphated battery but to be absolutely honest I don’t have the answers I've just pointed to where the common answers may be. after all everything else is 100% replicable with ease .. You guys have posted the motors and their numbers also the "good batteries" and their sizes the cable sizes and connections .... Then comes the missing link .. and be under no misconception connect the “right thing” in that position however you manage to “get it by the throat” and the world is changed forever. One of you may just read something that connects the dots as I relate one system to the other .. and if that should happen .. the games over . Stick an inverter on the thing and run for ever and ever amen and I'll rejoice with you! :hug:

I have read alot of stuff on battery sulphation over the last year. 1 common theme is the fact that a highly sulphated battery has a higher capacitance. The charge cannot penetrate the sulphation but is still kept seperated by the fluid.
So if the sulphation is the key then you do not want to destroy it. Any voltage 2x above the nominal voltage will begin to melt sulphation.
So what may be important is the amount of power coming out of the load. Have you knocked down the voltage enough with your load? This can easily be figured with ohms law, after all the battery is a capacitor and the motor is an inductor and the conbination of the 2 should cause a voltage dividing mechanism. But what is the equation to make sure its low enough?
Now if your not low enough and you are pounding the battery with high voltage you have immediatly starting changing the capacitance of the battery. So you results will change in a curve over time. and you will not be able to get predictable results even with a "Canidate Battery".

So this is some more info you are needing to report. The resistance, and henry count on the motor, plus the capacitance of the battery.
From that and a scope shot I am sure you can figure your voltage leaving the motor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fathershand (Post 184757)
I blew out the inverter today. I used battery 3 for the inverter battery. In order for me to get the inverter to work a little, I had to turn off the motorcycle fan and the other bulb. I tried using the 12V bulb with the inverter, but the bulb get very bright, with green tints, and then the inverter gave a loud pop and the bulb blew and smoke came out of the inverter. I unhooked it quickly, but the damage is done.

I am thinking of hooking a large cap in series with a different inverter. Do you think this will keep the inverter from getting overloaded?

Keep up the good work guys!
Tony

You blew the caps in your inverter, most likely. And No a big cap will not hold the voltage down. More than likely you need a regulator before the inverter.


Matt

Turion 03-17-2012 03:42 AM

Tony,
I remember doing something similar. When I was out at my dad's place with my original device we hooked up a spare 12 volt voltage regulator he had for use with his RV. It worked great for a while and we were running an inverter off of it and loads on that. Suddenly smoke began pouring out of the regulator. I still have it. It's one of those all sealed in plastic so no one can back engineer it. The problem wasn't the voltage going to it, but the AMPS. They were way more than what the factory specs said that regulator could handle. I'd bet that's the problem you are having here.

As you can see this thing puts out high voltage AND amps, especially when the loads are balanced. I'm not enough of an electrical expert to know exactly what to do about that, but I'm sure there are some others here who could tell us. Do yo have a way of measuring the amps you've got going?


Sanskara316 also sad he was blowing 12 volt bulbs with his setup, and I think high AMPS could be his problem too. That just occurred to me. It ticks me off that I keep remembering these things that I should have warned people about, but I keep forgetting not everyone is running a little 12 volt motor anymore.

How did the voltage do on your primary batteries?

Dave

FRC 03-17-2012 04:31 AM

Burnout
 
I have posted before that I have blown a lot of bulbs also. Fortunately, I have
not burnt out motors like others have while running the system. This may be
an important factor to be careful about. That is not to use too small of a Dc
motor for the motor position. The burn out may be due to other factors, like
improper connections or suitability of battery 3. A lot of us want to get the
results fast instead of taking our time and do things in the right procedure
Dave has described to do. I was able to salvage the motor I thought I had
wrecked trying to attach it to the shaft of another motor. I partially took it
apart and put it back together. It still runs, but I think it will be safer to use
it as a generator, since I think it still is damaged somewhat.

George

fathershand 03-17-2012 05:10 AM

Primary Battery Voltage
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Turion (Post 184774)
Tony,
I remember doing something similar. When I was out at my dad's place with my original device we hooked up a spare 12 volt voltage regulator he had for use with his RV. It worked great for a while and we were running an inverter off of it and loads on that. Suddenly smoke began pouring out of the regulator. I still have it. It's one of those all sealed in plastic so no one can back engineer it. The problem wasn't the voltage going to it, but the AMPS. They were way more than what the factory specs said that regulator could handle. I'd bet that's the problem you are having here.

As you can see this thing puts out high voltage AND amps, especially when the loads are balanced. I'm not enough of an electrical expert to know exactly what to do about that, but I'm sure there are some others here who could tell us. Do yo have a way of measuring the amps you've got going?


Sanskara316 also sad he was blowing 12 volt bulbs with his setup, and I think high AMPS could be his problem too. That just occurred to me. It ticks me off that I keep remembering these things that I should have warned people about, but I keep forgetting not everyone is running a little 12 volt motor anymore.

How did the voltage do on your primary batteries?

Dave

Dave, I'll do some more work about the voltage regulator. Maybe a better location for the inverter would be off the alternator which is being driven by the motor. However, I don't think I'm getting very many volts and amps from it yet. There is some more tests to perform in that area.

Regarding the primary voltage. I have 5 batteries to check for this. I was only checking one as sort of a gauge where I was with there depletion of these batteries. I ran this yesterday on 3 batteries, and after resting overnight, they were down about 1/2 volt. I charged them a little with an SSG and ran the test today using 2 more batteries. When I was done and had let them rest for a few hours, the voltage was down a bit more on the 3 previous batteries and just a little for the 2 additional batteries.

Here is my conclusion so far regarding the primary batteries and voltage loss. As you know, JB teaches batteries that are charged by radiant energy in an SSG, need several charge and discharge cycles in order for them to adjust. Since I haven't had that many charge/discharge with this new device, I think that it will require several more runs to see the results that you once saw. Maybe the reason that you can't duplicate your old system results has to do with the fact that you aren't using those original batteries. Maybe the ones that you and I are using now need some more conditioning. I also think that I can do a little more in balancing the load.

You also asked about me checking the amp draw. The only way I feel comfortable doing that is to use the one ohm test. I did that a few days ago before I put the inverter into this equation and the amp draw was within a half amp of being balanced.

I'll be back at it tomorrow. Your system is very intriguing, and we are gonna solve it soon! Keep up the good work, and get some sleep. You need it!!

Tony

FRC 03-17-2012 05:41 AM

I am dubious about using an ssg or radiant charging with this system. Radiant
energy will condition batteries to "negative energy" and limits their usage to
lights and inverters. Unless you are using the Bedini capacitor circuit to
change the radiant energy to positive energy, then it is my opinion that one
should use a conventional charger. Or like we are trying to do, use a generator
or alternator to charge other batteries to be switched to for the next run.

I am also skeptical about looping a charge back to battery 1 and 2 while
running the system. I might be wrong, if you take into account how
a resting period helps the batteries recover. And somehow I keep thinking
about John B. talking about the Watson machine looping back to the
batteries and causing the plates to crystallize. I think he also stresses to
leave an opening for energy to flow in, and not have it closed.

George

FRC 03-17-2012 05:53 AM

Another point about looping back a charge to battery 1 and 2 is that we might
be interfering with the good process we already have happening there. That is,
very little depletion of these batteries, and the charge that might be originating
from the motor going back to these batteries. If it works don't fix it!

George

Turion 03-17-2012 12:38 PM

FRC and faathershand,
Thanks for the data and your thoughts. More reasons, as Duncan said, why we should focus on the bad battery.

Oh sleep? I remember that. It's what I used to do before THIS all started. Now I'm up at 5:00 AM and don't go to bed until 1:00 or 2:00.

Dave

FRC 03-17-2012 12:41 PM

Do not take my two previous posts as cast in stone. They are just my humble
opinion. Who knows, maybe trying these things may lead to new breakthroughs
with this.

I just finished trying another run. I was getting 18.5 volts output to the charge battery, which was separate from the system batteries. I was using the alum battery for battery three again and had to turn the motor/generator by hand to get things started. For load on battery 3 I again used the 12v halogen light (at least it does not burn out).
The RPM's did increase after running for awhile. I thought the 18.5 volt output might
be too much for the charge battery and I added another motor to the motor position
and it did decrease the RPM's. As I was about to check the output on the charge battery my latest motor to generator attachment screwed up and I had to stop the
run. I still have not been able to get a good secure solid shaft to shaft thing
together. Also mounting the motor/generator on a piece of plywood or something
would also have helped. I used one of my other battery 3's to hold the motors down to avoid vibrations. I think running two motor/generator sets in the motor position with these particular motors will be the best way to proceed, instead of one in the motor position and one on the load position.

George

FRC 03-17-2012 01:51 PM

Aluminum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Turion (Post 184669)
,
After what Sanskara316 said about the primaries charging when using aluminum strips to connect the batteries together, I am tempted to drag out my old corroded battery cables and give them a shot, or some coaxial cable using the sheath rather than the copper core, just to see what happens with mine. I have a 30 foot roll of aluminum flashing, and a like roll of copper flashing, so maybe I will roll out the aluminum and cut some strips to use. I'd say that's a little dangerous because it's all exposed metal, but I can wrap it with electrical tape. It needs to be tested. My original system definitely charged batteries one and two, but this is really the first post here where anybody has seen that effect. I personally have seen the batteries maintain on mine, and even go up, but NOT a consistent gain. And if you can get it to do THAT, does it REALLY matter what battery is in the third position when you get the work of the motor for free? I think NOT. So definitely worth looking into.

Dave

I just re-read this. I think aluminum wire is available that could be used. I
remember getting the tail lights rewired in a car I had at a U-haul place
years ago and they used aluminum wire to do it. If it helps keep the
batteries up then why not try it.

George

Turion 03-17-2012 05:11 PM

OK guys,
Just some basics to help us stay on the same page as we talk about this stuff, because as I read about the differences between copper and aluminum, there are some significant differences that may be useful to us here.

An electric circuit is formed when a conductive path is created to allow free electrons to continuously move. This continuous movement of free electrons through the conductors of a circuit is called a current, and it is often referred to in terms of "flow," just like the flow of a liquid through a hollow pipe.

The force motivating electrons to "flow" in a circuit is called voltage. Voltage is a specific measure of potential energy that is always relative between two points. When we speak of a certain amount of voltage being present in a circuit, we are referring to the measurement of how much potential energy exists to move electrons from one particular point in that circuit to another particular point. Without reference to two particular points, the term "voltage" has no meaning.

Free electrons tend to move through conductors with some degree of friction, or opposition to motion. This opposition to motion is more properly called resistance. The amount of current in a circuit depends on the amount of voltage available to motivate the electrons, and also the amount of resistance in the circuit to oppose electron flow. Just like voltage, resistance is a quantity relative between two points. For this reason, the quantities of voltage and resistance are often stated as being "between" or "across" two points in a circuit.

To be able to make meaningful statements about these quantities in circuits, we need to be able to describe their quantities in the same way that we might quantify mass, temperature, volume, length, or any other kind of physical quantity. For mass we might use the units of "kilogram" or "gram." For temperature we might use degrees Fahrenheit or degrees Celsius. Here are the standard units of measurement for electrical current, voltage, and resistance:

Quantity Symbol Unit of Measurement Unit Abbreviation
Current I Amp A
Voltage E or V Volt V
Resistance R Ohm Ω


Specific resistance (ohms- cir/mil ft) (20°C ref)
Copper 10.6 Aluminum 8.52

I read things that said aluminum is anywhere from 60 to 80% less conductive that copper, so.....if we indeed have a two way movement of current here, and can isolate one direction on copper and the other on aluminum..... It gives us more things to play with.

ewizard 03-17-2012 06:43 PM

One note on aluminum wire. It's cheaper for the amount of current it can handle but it heats up more with the same amount of current in it and you need a larger gauge of wire to carry the same amount as copper. I'm just mentioning this because I know aluminum wire can heat up enough to be dangerous (as in start a fire) if you don't have it sized right to carry the load. Of course the same could be said for copper but it may be surprising how large of a gauge you need in aluminum to handle the same as copper.

I did get a brief time to try out this circuit again quick and dirty. I didn't have 2 good batteries but had a couple large ones that probably both had bad cells but still enough to try out. I ran two equal size 12 volt drill motors - one as load and one as the motor. Putting a load (grabbing the spinning end by hand) on either one cause the other to speed up. That seemed no surprise as more current will flow under load so more goes to the other also in a series circuit does it not? Dead battery for test was a small 4Ah showing only 0.5 volt. It would start to charge up to around 7 volts but drop off rapidly if circuit was disconnected. All this was just quick and dirty so I'm not drawing any conclusions from this test. Both of the marginal batteries were losing voltage fairly fast. The one thing I believe I did have was a balanced load more or less since both the motor and the load (a very similar size motor) were essentially the same. I really need to try with a couple good batteries.

Neight 03-17-2012 10:00 PM

Interesting on the aluminum...
I might have noticed a similar effect, and didn't even realize it. I don't have proper battery cables, but I did happen to pick up some new alligator clips, with a bit heavier wire. When I used them on my 3BGS setup, I noticed I wasn't getting the same results I had been with the smaller clips. I ended up leaving the larger clips between batteries, and used the smaller clips to hook up my loads to battery 3, and between my generator and it's load.
I just thought some of my new clips were bad...
In this same test, I ended up losing a bit of voltage from battery2, and thought I had just overdone it on loading my setup, which still may be true. I work the next two days, so I wont have time to test this until monday, but I will start swapping out smaller and larger clip leads to various parts of the circuit, and even get some aluminum foil and put it in rotation as well.
It appears that resistance between connections is going to be a key factor in this setup.
If I find one way works better than another, I will post my results.
I would be pretty sweet to find a way to get the good batteries to charge themselves in this system, or even better, just find the right balance that will leave the good batteries as simply a conduit for energy to flow through, so this would work without having to swap batteries out, just turn it on and leave it :thumbsup:
:cheers:
N8

Rubberband 03-17-2012 11:04 PM

3 battery
 
Hi guys, I started working with a three battery set up last week. I used duracell alkaline AA batteries. The two in series were new...My bad battery in series with the motor and those two in parallel with the new batteries. My motor is a radio shack 3 volt DC "solor: motor(<300ma). The dead battery was from a joule thief that had been left in there for weeks (check it with a DVOM) 0 volts, crystals had formed on the negative side. My first observations were that this dead battery seemed to be working as a voltage doubler... I used a DPDT switch, I broke the negative between the bad battery and the good ones as well as the positive side of good ones to the motor. This set up, when first connected the motor wood run slow..then I would check the bad battery it would read a couple of mv's and fall of to 0. So then I cross wired a second switch across the DPDT so I could kick the motor with 3 volts while the motor was running so I could see what it ran like on the three volts to the motor, in the circuit, it did but this is where I saw the volt doubling effect... get this I had two 1.5 v in series and a bad 1.5 v with the motor, when I used the second switch to make the motor wire connect to the negative of the good batteries w/ the DTDP switched on, a series/ parallel curcuit to the motor, the motor ramped up very fast and screamed. I stopped and connected my meter across the motor and restarted, as soon as I hit the second switch the motor again ramped up.

Rubberband 03-17-2012 11:19 PM

continued
 
So I looked and the meter was up at 7 Volts, from a potential 4.5 Volts?, Then the motor started to smell and slow down, so I let it cool down. I repeated this like six times every time the same. Then something changed... the motor started going less revs. each following time,...and the voltage was getting lower, now it will not speed up and the bad battery is holding voltage, so now it won't speed up, the voltage won't go up above the 2.98V's the new batteries are at and dropping every time i use it. One thing now is that the bad battery will run the motor at a slow speed for around fifteen minutes after i run the setup with the second swith on for about a couple of minutes, so now that the bad battery is "charging" the effect will not happen...trying to make new bad battery again...battery in joule thief burning now...

Turion 03-18-2012 12:34 AM

Rubberband,
Glad to see you here giving this a shot.
I said in post #1 (and in many posts after) that this will probably NOT work with anything BUT lead acid batteries. You are welcome to try of course, but don't be disappointed if the results are nothing like what others are seeing. I have no idea of the long term effects of the kinds of batteries you are using on the wiring or the motor. Are you using #6 or larger wire to connect the batteries to each other? That is also helpful in getting this to perform.

Everybody,
If you run the exact same motor off of battery three as your load as you are using as THE "motor" in this setup, that does NOT mean your loads are matched. You need to put some LOAD on the motor, so that alone makes them different, but somehow this system does not see them as matching. You still have to go through the process of matching the two loads to get the thing to go into the zone. So you are not matching two motors to each other, you are matching the LOAD on the motor to the motor AS a LOAD. I hope you can see the difference. I'm not very good at explaining this I guess.

Neight,
Size of wire can make a big, big difference. We have established that FOR SURE!

Dave

FRC 03-18-2012 02:30 AM

AC on DC
 
Something I have thought about doing with the 3BGS is using an AC motor
in place of a DC motor. It has to be a brushed AC motor as used in power
tools. I have done this before just hooked up to one 12 volt battery and
they run slow. But as the link below shows, with more batteries in series,
you can get more speed.

Run AC Tools on Batteries Directly, without an Inverter

This could be another interesting avenue of experimentation with the 3BGS.
Anyone got any experience with trying this or comments ?

George

Turion 03-18-2012 04:01 AM

From Ufopolotics thread
"However, I have not been trying to make-design a motor here...but just to demonstrate there is absolutely No "Single" Collapsing field Story teller any more...
There are "Collapsing Fields" on and off...where the cause for changing polarity an Inductor is due to the Radiant Opposite Field coming up..."

If you caught what he is saying and what he is trying to demonstrate in his videos...That what we have called CEMF in motors is the response of the radiant to the EMF. We put a charge into a motor which is EMF. It creates the electromagnet and then collapses, and the radiant creates and sends an opposite polarity charge right back at us, which we have called CEMF.

And I believe with a standard DC brushed motor wired between two positives like we are doing, that this pulse, radiant or otherwise, escapes the motor because we have it wired between the positives, and hits the supply (primary) batteries, and charges them. And that is the spike we see in the batteries on the scope that is higher than the battery voltage. (or an over voltage spike).

Dave

shylo 03-18-2012 10:37 AM

Hi all, I tried this with car batteries today ,the first 3b wouldn't start the fan motor (car rad fan). The next dead bat sat for 6 mins ,then the fan slowly started, so I added a small load to 3b ,the fan speed increased, added more load the speed increased again, I kept adding loads and the fans speed keeps increasing. Then I ran out of on hand loads ,gotta get some more lights.
Then I hooked another dead bat parallel to 3b ,as I put loads on it ,the speed of the fan decreased ,but the loads on 3b increased???
3b had 12v tail-light ,and 3 18v cordless drills as load
3b parallel had another rad fan and cordless as load
but 3b keeps charging up....crap
3b parallel charges up alot slower
So I guess I haven't found the zone yet ,what should the ressults be when in the zone??
I only have the week-ends for this after the to-do list.
How many loads can we put on this???
Very cool stuff.......thanks people.....shylo

FRC 03-18-2012 11:01 AM

shylo
 
I am not sure what to say to answer you. I have never did what you are
doing with 2 battery 3's. I did have 3 batteries in parallel (including the alum
battery) but I only put loads on the first battery 3. Sounds like your 3b still
takes a charge and might be getting fixed. The only bad battery that I have
right now that will not take a charge and does not have to be drained, is the
alum battery. Even though the other bad batteries take a charge and have
to be drained, it is as if the losses from battery 1 and 2 are transfered as
charge to these other bad batteries. So in effect you do not loose anything.
Or if you do it is very small when you add up what you have for charge in
these bad batteries and compare it to what was lost.

George


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:55 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO v1.4.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Shoutbox provided by vBShout v6.2.8 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
2007-2015 Copyright - Energetic Forum - All Rights Reserved