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  #2791  
Old 07-14-2014, 11:59 PM
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MOSFET question

Assembling my OSHpark Monser driver v5.1 boards finally. On the MOSFET, Pin 1 is the gate, Pin 2 the drain and Pin 3 the source. What I am seeing seems a little counter intuitive, is that the "source" pin is hooked up to the board and battery ground then? Is my understanding correct? Here are the diagrams.
Schematic: (Note: R2 value is incorrect, has been changed to 330)

(This is now the corrected image, using blogspot instead of photobucket)


Package diagram


Piece schematic


Using 1 ohm on R3,8 Edit: Sorry, threw up my old express PCB schematic, not numbered the same as JS T3001 schematic. It is R7,8 on this diagram and R3,9 on the JS schematic

Any input appreciated
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  #2792  
Old 07-15-2014, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sampojo View Post
Assembling my OSHpark Monser driver v5.1 boards finally. On the MOSFET, Pin 1 is the gate, Pin 2 the drain and Pin 3 the source. What I am seeing seems a little counter intuitive, is that the "source" pin is hooked up to the board and battery ground then? Is my understanding correct? Here are the diagrams.
Schematic: (Note: R2 value is incorrect, has been changed to 330)


Package diagram


Piece schematic


Using 1 ohm on R3,8

Any input appreciated


Hey Joey, that is correct, source to battery negative, drain to - end of motor coils.

You are simply using these boards as an on/off switch on the low side, or negative side, completing the circuit.

Great to see you building these now.

Regards Friend, Cornboy.
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  #2793  
Old 07-16-2014, 07:56 PM
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PKE250CA transil diode problem on Monster driver

My mouser part from Fairchild does not have a color band on the part to denote the cathode. The datasheet diagram says its supposed to. Can't just hook up a multimeter to see which way the current goes on these. Its says bidirectional. Does that mean it doesn't matter which way it goes?

Any body know a way to tell which side is the cathode on these?

RE post on MOSFETs, thanks cornboy! and thx! Very informative.
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  #2794  
Old 07-16-2014, 08:34 PM
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Ground heatsinks for MOSFETs?

Should the heats sinks for the MOSFETs on Monster driver be grounded to board ground?
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  #2795  
Old 07-16-2014, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sampojo View Post
My mouser part from Fairchild does not have a color band on the part to denote the cathode. The datasheet diagram says its supposed to. Can't just hook up a multimeter to see which way the current goes on these. Its says bidirectional. Does that mean it doesn't matter which way it goes?

Any body know a way to tell which side is the cathode on these?

RE post on MOSFETs, thanks cornboy! and thx! Very informative.
G'day Sampojo
Bidirectional means just that you do not need to worry about polarity
With regard to the diodes that are polarized you will notice that they have a stripe around the circumference one end and if they come taped together the tape on this leg is red colour this is the cathode end the striped end


The back of the Mosfets is also connected to the centre pin the Drain which when connected to the heat sink, and this is connected to the negative of the Motor
I hope this helps
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  #2796  
Old 07-17-2014, 12:48 PM
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thanks Kogs! conductive grease anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iankoglin View Post
G'day Sampojo
Bidirectional means just that you do not need to worry about polarity
With regard to the diodes that are polarized you will notice that they have a stripe around the circumference one end and if they come taped together the tape on this leg is red colour this is the cathode end the striped end


The back of the Mosfets is also connected to the centre pin the Drain which when connected to the heat sink, and this is connected to the negative of the battery

I hope this helps
Kogs, thanks a million! so cool to have a show-stopper problem when you go to sleep at night and have blokes on the other side of the world answer the question for you when you wake up in the AM!

Heres another worry wort problem, can't find my electronic heat conductive grease anywhere but would like to use it on the heat sink, but am concerned it may affect electronic conductivity on the ground connection of the heat sink. Better off grounding it independently then?
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  #2797  
Old 07-17-2014, 02:07 PM
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Drain To Negative of Battery?!

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Originally Posted by iankoglin View Post

The back of the Mosfets is also connected to the centre pin the Drain which when connected to the heat sink, and this is connected to the negative of the battery



Hello my Dear Friend Kogs,

I believe the above statement tends to confusion...or am I wrong?

The Drain of the MOSFET should go to the Negative Input of Motor, and Not to the Negative of Battery...am I right?

Negative from Battery should go to Source of the FET.


Kind Regards


Ufopolitics
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  #2798  
Old 07-17-2014, 02:15 PM
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If...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sampojo View Post
Kogs, thanks a million! so cool to have a show-stopper problem when you go to sleep at night and have blokes on the other side of the world answer the question for you when you wake up in the AM!

Heres another worry wort problem, can't find my electronic heat conductive grease anywhere but would like to use it on the heat sink, but am concerned it may affect electronic conductivity on the ground connection of the heat sink. Better off grounding it independently then?
Hello Sam,

If the Heat Sink is supposed to be attached to Ground, and Ground goes to Battery Negative...Then you need to Isolate the Heat Sink from the Drain Contact through the Mica/Bakelite transparent sheets as also a washer/nut that is made of heat resistive plastic for the bolt/nut not to make contact with FET's Drain Plate...Only then you could use the Heat Grease based on White Silicon Compound which is not conductive electrically, only transfers heat.

That is my opinion, however, I have to check again the Monster Driver Diagrams

Regards Sam

Ufopolitics
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  #2799  
Old 07-17-2014, 11:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iankoglin View Post
G'day Sampojo
Bidirectional means just that you do not need to worry about polarity
With regard to the diodes that are polarized you will notice that they have a stripe around the circumference one end and if they come taped together the tape on this leg is red colour this is the cathode end the striped end


The back of the Mosfets is also connected to the centre pin the Drain which when connected to the heat sink, and this is connected to the negative of the Motor
I hope this helps
G'day UFO, Sampojo and all others
I wrote the above in a hurry and did not proof read it
UFO I am glad you noticed my error and I have corrected the above post

So as to stop any confusion I will delete this Post in a few Days

Kindest Regards

Kogs has never ever made even one mistake Just 100's of errors and still going
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  #2800  
Old 07-17-2014, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello Sam,

If the Heat Sink is supposed to be attached to Ground, and Ground goes to Battery Negative...Then you need to Isolate the Heat Sink from the Drain Contact through the Mica/Bakelite transparent sheets as also a washer/nut that is made of heat resistive plastic for the bolt/nut not to make contact with FET's Drain Plate...Only then you could use the Heat Grease based on White Silicon Compound which is not conductive electrically, only transfers heat.

That is my opinion, however, I have to check again the Monster Driver Diagrams

Regards Sam

Ufopolitics
G'day UFO and Sampojo
I corrected my post above

The back of the Mosfets is also connected to the centre pin the Drain which when connected to the heat sink, and this is connected to the negative of the Motor

Kindest Regards

Kogs a bit
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  #2801  
Old 07-18-2014, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello my Dear Friend Kogs,

I believe the above statement tends to confusion...or am I wrong?

The Drain of the MOSFET should go to the Negative Input of Motor, and Not to the Negative of Battery...am I right?

Negative from Battery should go to Source of the FET.


Kind Regards


Ufopolitics
G'day UFO
You are Right The back of the Mosfets is also connected to the centre pin the Drain which when connected to the heat sink, and this is connected to the negative of the Motor


Thanks for picking up my error I should proof read before pushing the submit button

Thanks my friend

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  #2802  
Old 07-18-2014, 03:40 AM
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Heat sink ology

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ufopolitics View Post
Hello Sam,

If the Heat Sink is supposed to be attached to Ground, and Ground goes to Battery Negative...Then you need to Isolate the Heat Sink from the Drain Contact through the Mica/Bakelite transparent sheets as also a washer/nut that is made of heat resistive plastic for the bolt/nut not to make contact with FET's Drain Plate...Only then you could use the Heat Grease based on White Silicon Compound which is not conductive electrically, only transfers heat.

That is my opinion, however, I have to check again the Monster Driver Diagrams

Regards Sam

Ufopolitics
hmm... So yeah the center pin goes to the drain and to the heat sink and to the negative on the motor, not battery ground. I guess grounding means grounding to battery ground and would be optimal. So mica insulators would be good. Got some pads from the salvaged heat sinks that must do just this job! only 2 though, good for only 1 board, but I at least know what to look for now.

I am tempted to leave them floating and ungrounded but I bet that's a bad idea. Or even attached directly to Drain without an insulator. Again probably a bad idea. I wonder what Dana did?
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  #2803  
Old 07-18-2014, 03:40 AM
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Adding in the heavy wires on the MOSFETs

looking at using 12 or 14ga solid house wires on the light blue connections here...



I am supposing I should use 12 rather than 14, but I know it will take a lot more heat to solder, worrying about the components. Guess I can put some more heat sinking action on it like a small damp cloth...

Would 12ga be enough for an Imperial style operation taking 12-18A?
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  #2804  
Old 07-18-2014, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by sampojo View Post
looking at using 12 or 14ga solid house wires on the light blue connections here...



I am supposing I should use 12 rather than 14, but I know it will take a lot more heat to solder, worrying about the components. Guess I can put some more heat sinking action on it like a small damp cloth...

Would 12ga be enough for an Imperial style operation taking 12-18A?
G'day Sam

Please do not use insulation pads as you can connect this way better



The cables I am using are Jaycar 12 Gauge OTC High current Power current
it has more very fine wires for Solar and DC operations solder the 12G to the ground as I have shown the solder is about 2mm thick do this before any other components




Firstly before inserting any components solder a heavy layer onto the pads where the bolts go through the pads probably 2mm thick then solder some 12G from where the source pins come out.
Use 3mm diam. countersink headed bolts then countersink for the bolt heads and use Heat sink paste when fitting the c/s bolts and use a washer and nut and tighten hard when this is done solder the other components in and when you gave soldered them you can cut off the centre pin the drain pin from the Mosfet as you are connecting through the back into the heat sinks the heat sinks 2 of them are fitted with heat sink paste on both sides of the Mosfets and bolted with 2 - 3mm screws drilled and tapped to secure them together and press them against the Mosfets and there is a bolt that goes between the Mosfets countersunk in one and secured using heat sink paste and the nuts tightened securely

The Heat sink paste is necessary anywhere there is a connection to the heat sink as this makes a proper electrical connection

You notice the 12G going from the Power out to the Heat sink you need to bend this first and measure/determine where the solder cable connector goes band bend into shape before soldering as the soldering makes this wire stiff



Any questions please ask

Kogs just trying to be helpful
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  #2805  
Old 07-18-2014, 06:58 PM
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Kogs, most helpful indeed

Looks very well engineered! So you use the heatsink as the best connection point. I already have the center pin in place, no harm I suppose. putting some heatsink SILVER compound on order! I suppose I could beef up that connection a little too. Going with some stranded wire and filling up those pads with solder!

thanks Kogs
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  #2806  
Old 07-18-2014, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sampojo View Post
Looks very well engineered! So you use the heatsink as the best connection point. I already have the center pin in place, no harm I suppose. putting some heatsink SILVER compound on order! I suppose I could beef up that connection a little too. Going with some stranded wire and filling up those pads with solder!

thanks Kogs
G'day Sampojo
I am not sure the heatsink compound is silver based it is for electrical transfer to make sure there is a proper connection

Yes build up the pads
Dana was the first to replicate the JS Monster and he built up the pads with heaps of solder, JS said that that is what you need to do as if I remember correctly he said it also acts as a capacitor

The stranded wire is very important to use a DC wire like what is used for solar power it is high energy transfer wire as it has a lot more and finer strands than ordinary hook-up wire or wire that transfers AC

It is always best to use this wire cables any where you use DC and especially if you want efficiency use larger cables not smaller cables but do not go too large do not over do it

Kindest Regards my friend


Kogs still getting there
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  #2807  
Old 07-20-2014, 05:21 AM
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My Monster Driver Board 1

whew, some of the toughest soldering job I ever did on the 12ga wire, used a micro-torch on my 1000w soldering gun to get the heat needed.



beat hell out of the insulation huh? Got some cleaning to do on those solder shavings, did some grinding on the pads.

top vw



conn. vw.



Maybe I will try using the heat sink as the PWM out (drain) to avoid the extra soldering job as I understand Kogs did it. Could have lost the whole board there...
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  #2808  
Old 07-20-2014, 05:36 AM
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My Monster Driver Board 1

whew, some of the toughest soldering I ever did on the 12ga wire, used a micro-torch on my 1000w soldering gun to get the heat needed.



beat hell out of the insulation huh?

top vw



conn. vw.



UH-OH Error, see those 1.2K ohm resistors, should be 1.0K!!
Maybe I will try using the heat sink as the PWM out (source) to avoid the soldering extra soldering job. Could have lost the whole board there...

Have only tested the regulator output so far; A-OK. Dual NAND not installed here...
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  #2809  
Old 07-23-2014, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by thx1138 View Post
Does stranded vs solid make much difference when we are dealing with pulsed DC?

I understand the concern in a photovoltaic power system that outputs continuous current but would it make any difference in this circuit?

Would it make sense to use Litz wire in this application? Either on the circuit board or between the circuit board and the motor?
G'day thx
My understanding is that with DC current you have the problem with Voltage drop even over short distances one way to alleviate this problem is to reduce the resistance in the wire.
I understand the majority of the current is conveyed on the surface of the wire and this can be increased by having multiple strands this in turn reduces the resistance. so rather than one single wire the more strands the less resistance the finer the wire the more strands the more surface area

The reason Solar systems use this type of wire is that they are trying to harvest as much energy as they can and the less resistance in the wire the more current there is.

I hope this makes sense

As far as using Litz wire I do not really know except that John Stone has said that twisting the wires between some components reduces cross talk electrical interference between the wires

Kindest Regards
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  #2810  
Old 07-23-2014, 08:17 PM
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Arctic Silver paste disappointment

Kogs

I was so enamored that this paste had silver in it that it was of course for heat and electric conduction. But no, it is only heat conductive. should have read the full info on the product. So still looking for heat & electric conductive paste to implement use of the heat sink instead of doing 2 of those heavy gauge solder jobs per board. Trying desperately to implement your design modification!

Do you think it would work ok with just metal to metal, Mosfet back to heat conductor, at least for low amp small motor applications? I guess all bets off on the 10-20A range for large motors?
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  #2811  
Old 07-24-2014, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sampojo View Post
Kogs

I was so enamored that this paste had silver in it that it was of course for heat and electric conduction. But no, it is only heat conductive. should have read the full info on the product. So still looking for heat & electric conductive paste to implement use of the heat sink instead of doing 2 of those heavy gauge solder jobs per board. Trying desperately to implement your design modification!

Do you think it would work ok with just metal to metal, Mosfet back to heat conductor, at least for low amp small motor applications? I guess all bets off on the 10-20A range for large motors?
G'day Sam
How's your hip my knee is still sore I am sorry I had it done

The Mosfets
The drain pin and the back are connected if you want the Mosfets separated that is each Isolated so they are independent from each other you need a silicone pad to isolate it/them from the heat sink so there is no electrical connection also this pad can squeeze to accommodate any irregularity that stops the heat transfer,
Where the drain's of the Mosfets are in parallel and you don't need to separate them you need heat-sink paste to make sure there is a proper connection between the back of the Mosfet and the heat sink any little bit of dust can isolate the connection and therefore they will fail. So you must Use the heat sink Paste it will conduct the current. After connecting a Mosfet to the heatsink using a DMM to check for continuity

If you do use the drain directly to the heat sink you can cut the drain pin one less to solder. Also the heat sink MUST NOT be an anodized one as the anodizing WILL NOT transfer the current


I hope this is of some help
Kindest Regards

Kogs still around
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  #2812  
Old 07-25-2014, 03:33 AM
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Found Monster Driver 5.1 PCB at OSHPark.com!

Looks like Neal got his project search engine working right. Need to correct the mis-statement that they weren't there anymore a few pages back. I sent him the version that has the 3 links. I had to adapt the gerber files for his system Those gerber files found on my dropbox here formatted for Oshpark. His site does 2-layer boards, while the PWM MD5.1 is just single layer, so you have to adjust the file names and dupe one out for a false second layer. He intends to offer them so they can be purchased without the submission of the gerber files any time now with a redesign of his web site. Here are all the layers:

Wire traces:

Drill Holes:

Copper Masks:

Component Info:

All assembled layers:



John Stone MONSTER DRIVER Boards are available at OSHPark without upload under the Shared Projects link!!!

If any can point me to the updated Monster Driver files, let me know...
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  #2813  
Old 07-25-2014, 04:57 AM
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Assembling the PWM with Arduino Uno

Planning on using program Duoblink2ver1 initially, growing into the quad for my quad motor. I see how it is essentially using pins 10 & 11 to drive a 2-stator motor, pins A1, A2 as pot inputs for Duty cycle and frequency. I just can't tell how to hook up to the Monster Driver board.

Do I use the opto A or K pin input there?
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  #2814  
Old 07-25-2014, 03:23 PM
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thanks for asking

Quote:
Originally Posted by iankoglin View Post
G'day Sam
How's your hip my knee is still sore I am sorry I had it done
Pain from incision going away after 4 wks. had the "anterior" hip replacement, no muscle cutting, somewhat traumatic since they then struggle to keep vertical 4" incision as small as possible, so they go in heavy with retractors to make a round hole as big as possible, but at least muscle strength not compromised as a result, no post-op restrictions, but did have circulation probs and some swelling. They delayed my PT until post-op visit, 3 wks, kinda think that was a good idea, area just not ready. Free and clear from here methinks.
Sorry about the knee, give it more time and fight thru the PT as long as it feels better after...

a small medical aside
good luck on that the the green monster and the knee!
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  #2815  
Old 07-28-2014, 09:40 AM
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John Stone's MD 5.1's Is blown

G'day UFO, John Stone and team

I wanted to finish my Bicycle put it together using J Stone's Monster driver and test it before I finish Nessie.

In the Bike I have the 4 Gates each 2 set 180deg. in parallel so I had 4 wires out from the motor I connected the 2 Positives together and the 2 negative ones I connected so as to have 2 switches as per UFO's diagram for Nessie

I have a bank of 10 - 63v 22000uf Electrolytic Capacitors in parallel and connected in parallel with the Battery which measured 52v

I needed to have a DPDT switch to switch the battery and the cap banks separately as if you keep them connected when not in use the caps will drain the battery
So I used 2 - 24v 80 amp 5 pin Relays to do this switching the 52v+ Positives from the Battery and the cap bank to their own Relay and joining them after the Relays so they are connected jointly to the motor and to the both positives of the gates I connected the Extra Diodes across the switching Connectors but as I did not as yet receive the 10 watt resistors I have not connected them

This worked fine when I had my bike on its side and there was no load but when I road tested it I made sure I had some speed probably 5 k's/hour then switched on the motor slowly turned the throttle it accelerated for a bit then blew the Mosfets

Please John Stone and UFO I know you both are very busy I have up loaded some Pics to my Photo Bucket here and would like if you might suggest where I have gone wrong

Bicycle Controller Blown Slideshow by Kogs1 | Photobucket

All the other components The regulators, PWM Oscillator are still working OK

Kindest Regards


Kogs still around
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  #2816  
Old 07-28-2014, 10:33 PM
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Kogs

I see that you are only using one mosfet in each of the two locations on that board. I switched to two at each locations and have not blow another one.
Dana
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  #2817  
Old 07-29-2014, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by iankoglin View Post
G'day UFO, John Stone and team

I wanted to finish my Bicycle put it together using J Stone's Monster driver and test it before I finish Nessie.

In the Bike I have the 4 Gates each 2 set 180deg. in parallel so I had 4 wires out from the motor I connected the 2 Positives together and the 2 negative ones I connected so as to have 2 switches as per UFO's diagram for Nessie

I have a bank of 10 - 63v 22000uf Electrolytic Capacitors in parallel and connected in parallel with the Battery which measured 52v

I needed to have a DPDT switch to switch the battery and the cap banks separately as if you keep them connected when not in use the caps will drain the battery
So I used 2 - 24v 80 amp 5 pin Relays to do this switching the 52v+ Positives from the Battery and the cap bank to their own Relay and joining them after the Relays so they are connected jointly to the motor and to the both positives of the gates I connected the Extra Diodes across the switching Connectors but as I did not as yet receive the 10 watt resistors I have not connected them

This worked fine when I had my bike on its side and there was no load but when I road tested it I made sure I had some speed probably 5 k's/hour then switched on the motor slowly turned the throttle it accelerated for a bit then blew the Mosfets

Please John Stone and UFO I know you both are very busy I have up loaded some Pics to my Photo Bucket here and would like if you might suggest where I have gone wrong

Bicycle Controller Blown Slideshow by Kogs1 | Photobucket

All the other components The regulators, PWM Oscillator are still working OK

Kindest Regards


Kogs still around
Kogs,
Looking at the layout of the board it looks like the two power mosfets are inserted backwards from each other. Pin 1 is in the center for each one.
It appears that yours are both in the board the same way and mounted on the same side of the heat sink am I wrong?
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:54 AM
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Pembelton Pembelton is offline
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I see you have them in backwards from each, but that must make them hard to heatsink properly. You do have a fan on it that should help. Do you have a BEMF diode(s) across the motor,as the brush leaves the commutator you can get a large spike back into the output transistors that tends to blow them. Just trying to help out.
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Old 07-29-2014, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prochiro View Post
Kogs

I see that you are only using one mosfet in each of the two locations on that board. I switched to two at each locations and have not blow another one.
Dana
G'day Dana
I had already a JS Monster with double Mosfets I used it sometime ago on various testing it worked I did not see any real difference I was told by several persons that only one Mosfet should be enough to drive a 250w motor so I continued making them with just the 2 Mosfets as JS designed it
it is to cater for 200v 100a I realise that it needed finer tuning with the 1 ohm resistors.
That being said I connected it up to my motor and it worked OK I then connected to it up to the circuit that I was using for Nessie and as soon as I started the motor it blew the Mosfets at least that is what I imagine as I have not pulled it down to test it yet.

I notice that the LED adjusts to the PWM as I turn the pot but the motor is not effected it just goes full bore So I am sure it is the Mosfets.

I am now convinced that it is some how connected to the Capacitors.

I have though connected them in parallel to the battery with the Diodes just as UFO has stated in Nessie's circuit

It may be that the caps draw from the battery in the first instant and probably it may draw through the controller

Perhaps I need another diode to redirect the current from the battery

I really need to sort this out before I start putting Nessie's works together

I have purchased 50 pcs 2.7v 500F super capacitors and they should be arriving sometime within the week.
I will be experimenting with them they will make 2 banks 13.5v 500F each I was going to put these in series to give me 27v bank I could run with a 24v system

If it is the caps that are the problem and when I have them sorted I will be a happy chappie.

I have to get going and replace the Mosfets and get Sorted

My wife says I need to get all these things sorted as she wants to sell the house and move to Tasmania.

Kindest Regards

Kogs slowly getting there
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Old 07-29-2014, 05:13 AM
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iankoglin iankoglin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pembelton View Post
I see you have them in backwards from each, but that must make them hard to heatsink properly. You do have a fan on it that should help. Do you have a BEMF diode(s) across the motor,as the brush leaves the commutator you can get a large spike back into the output transistors that tends to blow them. Just trying to help out.
G'day Pembelton
Thanks for your input
I have been using these JS Monster drivers also the drivers that UFO showed us 2 Years ago, for some time now and have never had this problem it seems now I am using a Cap bank I have this problem.

I think you are right the only problem with that is we are collecting the energy produced by the Motor and directing this back to the battery via the caps

Kindest Regards

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...9x89_57418.gif
Kogs Photo Bucket does not work again
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