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Overunityguide 08-31-2011 06:48 AM

Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect
 
Hi you all,

Please view my most recent video about the Negative Lenz / Delayed Lenz Effect Experiment.
It is actually a Replication of the Thane C Heins Regenerative Accelerating Generator:

overunityguide's Channel - YouTube

My results are the same as Thane C Heins. In my opinion this is what we all are looking for.

With Kind Regards,

Overunityguide

nilrehob 08-31-2011 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overunityguide (Post 154328)
Hi you all,

Please view my most recent video about the Negative Lenz / Delayed Lenz Effect Experiment.
It is actually a Replication of the Thane C Heins Regenerative Accelerating Generator:

overunityguide's Channel - YouTube

My results are the same as Thane C Heins. In my opinion this is what we all are looking for.

With Kind Regards,

Overunityguide

Yes, yes, yes, yes, ... Yes! ;)

:cheers:

/Hob

nilrehob 08-31-2011 10:45 AM

Here is my video on this subject:

Delayed Lenz - YouTube

It seems the recipe is simple:
1) magnets passing by the coil fast, high frequency
2) high inductance coil, high voltage

In my case the rpm is around 1500 which would be 325 Hz with 13 magnets all north out,
and the gen coil was 257 mH where while motor coils power-winding where 3.8 mH, same formfactor.

My current theory is that the generator coil is too slow to react 'properly',
it tries to hinder the approach by setting up a north magnetic field,
but the coil is slow and when the field up it's too late, the magnet is already going away,
so instead of slowing it down it pushes the magnet away and speeding it up.

/Hob

Farmhand 08-31-2011 11:24 AM

Hi guys, cool video, nice setup Overunityguide. :thumbsup: I really like the
sound of that thing.

There seems to be no doubt that the effect is real not for me anyway. I'm
not adept enough to experiment in this area so I can only comment with my
limited knowledge. I'm not skeptical by nature either, I don't think. But.

The way I see it there is only one major stumbling block or problem with
this arrangement.

That is that to power the load at low speed/frequency required less power
than it did to power the load at high speed frequency because of the extra
overhead/power needed to get the higher speed to start with.

So in reality it actually required 30 watts extra idle power to see it happen
with a 2 watt load, which kind of defeats the purpose.

I'm not sure of the all the input output figure's claimed by Thane, but I think
the extra power required for the extra speed should be added to the
calculation then the amount of power reduced by the load subtracted from
that.

Which would mean in this case it actually required about 16 more watts to
power the load at the higher speed compared to the low.

Using roughly rounded figure's.

Loaded slow = 58 watts

Loaded fast =74 watts

A difference of 16 watts in favor of the slow speed.

I have to admitt the power in does drop, but the question is why.

Is there a video showing the full input and output figures in real time of Thanes generator ?

It sure is interesting and will get a lot of attention. It would be interesting to
see what would happen when the generator is loaded fully with more load.

Cheers

Overunityguide 08-31-2011 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Farmhand (Post 154347)
Hi guys, cool video, nice setup Overunityguide. :thumbsup: I really like the
sound of that thing.

There seems to be no doubt that the effect is real not for me anyway. I'm
not adept enough to experiment in this area so I can only comment with my
limited knowledge. I'm not skeptical by nature either, I don't think. But.

The way I see it there is only one major stumbling block or problem with
this arrangement.

That is that to power the load at low speed/frequency required less power
than it did to power the load at high speed frequency because of the extra
overhead/power needed to get the higher speed to start with.

So in reality it actually required 30 watts extra idle power to see it happen
with a 2 watt load, which kind of defeats the purpose.

I'm not sure of the all the input output figure's claimed by Thane, but I think
the extra power required for the extra speed should be added to the
calculation then the amount of power reduced by the load subtracted from
that.

Which would mean in this case it actually required about 16 more watts to
power the load at the higher speed compared to the low.

Using roughly rounded figure's.

Loaded slow = 58 watts

Loaded fast =74 watts

A difference of 16 watts in favor of the slow speed.

I have to admitt the power in does drop, but the question is why.

Is there a video showing the full input and output figures in real time of Thanes generator ?

It sure is interesting and will get a lot of attention. It would be interesting to
see what would happen when the generator is loaded fully with more load.

Cheers


Hello Farmhand,

Thanks for your feedback, I have to admit that there is a lot to improve in those types of setup, but for now it is only showing proof of principle...

Of course a motor running with a higher velocity / rpm at idle will take more input power, to overcome all of the extra losses involved.

But the effect is there... There can be improved multiple things.

Multiplying the pole pairs on the generator rotor will give you a higher frequency for the same rpm for instance...

And for a theoretical explanation about what is taking place in the generator coil I would like to redirect you to the following link as provided by Thane C Heins himself:

ThaneCHeins's Channel - YouTube

At two minutes from the start of this provided video he is giving his theoretical explanation.

The best to All, and with Kind Regards,

Overunityguide
Thane C Heins Replication, Confirming the Negative Lenz Effect - YouTube

Matthew Jones 08-31-2011 12:20 PM

@Nilerhob

I am not sure that it is matter of delayed reaction. Although high frequency is defendantly a key.

You have to look at the power coming from the coil. In most cases this is a sign wave similar to a pure sign AC, yet we know the current is mostly in one leg of the wave form as all the magnets are in the same direction. The positive half of the waveform should be that leg.

This Fellow's setup at the Muller Thread has got me fascinated. With 1 ohm resistor he accelerates but anything higher he slows down.
ACCELERATION WITH THE HELP OF THE BEMF - YouTube

So I have messing around with it. And what I am seeing is the when you make this sign wave you have more current on the positive side then the negative. You can check this with a diode load.
The negative part of the wave form is normally responsible for the counter emf effect, or Lenz effect. It causes an attraction as the magnet leaves the coil. We normally would pull the positive off to the load.
When you short the coil the positive side is strong enough to dissipate the negative effect and leave itself partially intact. So it causes a PUSH onto the opposing magnet.
This is why a resistance that is too high will not allow the effect. It stalls the current from the positive half of the wave form and allow the negative to propagate in the coil and cause the drag.

So the test I am trying to find is to see if there is another way to pull the negative half of the sign out of the way without using the positive half to eliminate it.
If it is like I think then that solution will allow you to pull the negative half first to get it out of the way then pull the positive half after it has been used to accelerate the coil.
In other words, the output will be a complete flip of the sign wave coming out.

Make Sense?
Matt

nilrehob 08-31-2011 01:00 PM

I sent my video to Thane Heins, and these where his replies:

First reply:
-------------------
Dear nilrehob,

Congratulations!
Is it possible for you to show useable power being produced from your high current coil (with Lenz deceleration) and then negate the Lenz effect with the high voltage coils?

Great work!

Cheers
Thane
-------------------

:notworthy:

Second reply, shortly after the first:
-------------------

You are welcome to consider these expanations... Cheers Thane

1) Explanation for the Russian Academy of Science

The regenerative acceleration generator coil action is based on frequency dependant impedance. Coil impedance is a function of frequency where:

XL = 2pifL
ZL = 2pifL + RDC

As the frequency increases (rotor RPM) the impedance of the coil also increases so its current carrying capacity decreases accordingly. As the coil's ability to carry current decreases the coil's (Lenz induced) repelling magnetic field also decreases while at the same time the coil's induced voltage is increasing.

When the magnet is TDC (top dead centre) to the coil (neither approaching nor receding) the coil impedance drops to the DC resistance of the coil and the self induced voltage is maximum. The high voltage is then able to be dissipated through the small DC resistance of the coil - producing a delayed magnetic field which pushes away on the now receding magnet while at the same time attracting the next opposite magnet pole on the rotor.

If the Self Accelerating coil is engaged at a rotor speed where current can flow in the coil (because the frequency is low) - then the coil acts like any conventional coil and produces a repelling magnetic field as per Lenz's Law which can be observed here: Regen Acceleration vs Regen Braking - YouTube

2) Explanation for the Professional Engineers of Ontario

Regenerative Acceleration Electricity Generation is accomplished by forcing the primarily inductive generator coils to operate at higher frequencies where the coil's impedance (coil AC resistance + DC resistance) does not allow traditional seamless AC electric current to flow. Generator Armature Reaction (deceleration as dictated by Lenz's law) is a function of the magnitude of current flowing in the coil. If no current is allowed to flow no armature reaction can be produced and if correctly timed AC current pulses are produced a reversal of the armature reaction is created.

Prime mover acceleration is created by increasing and exploiting the generator coils self induced capacitance. Now at desired frequencies the generator coils no longer operate as inductors, storing energy in the Electromagnetic Field around the coil, but instead they operate as capacitors, storing energy in the Electrostatic Field - between the wires inside the coil.

Acceleration occurs during the transition period when the generator's rotating magnetic field pole is top dead centre to a generator coil (neither approaching nor receding). At TDC the large capacitively stored voltage is now able to be dissipated through the low DC coil resistance and a large current and delayed magnetic field is produced which now pushes away on the already receding rotor magnetic pole and simultaneously attracting the next opposite approaching rotor pole - thus accelerating the rotor and prime mover instead of decelerating it as in the conventional generator paradigm.

3) Gates Corporation Demo Video Explanation
Part 1 GATES CORPORATION Demo - YouTube

4) NASA Demo Video Explanation
NASA Video Part 1 - Regenerative Acceleration Explanation - YouTube

5) Gates Corporation IP Evolution Demo Video Explanation
"Dare to be naive." ~ R. Buckminster Fuller - YouTube

6) EV Introduction to Regenerative Acceleration Generator Technology
EV Intro to Reg-Accel-Generator Tech. (RM) - YouTube

-------------------

:thinking:

/Hob

hherby 08-31-2011 01:24 PM

Core material
 
Interesting videos guys. Thanks for posting them. I watched the videos and I don't recall hearing anyone say what core material was used for the coils. In Overunityguide's video, it looked like a steel bolt. Overunityguide, please check if the core heats up. I would think this arrangement would create very high eddie currents in the core causing it to heat up.

Does Heins state what he is using for a core in his coils anywhere?

Nilerob, what are you using for a core in your high impedence coil?

I am curious if the same effect occurs if using different core material like ferrite rod, powdered iron or magnetite core.

Thanks

Alex

Matthew Jones 08-31-2011 02:25 PM

Here is the tests I did to see if one legs of the AC was responsible and where how to pull power for the greatest gain.
http://www.matthewcjones.com/power/CoilShortTest.jpg

You can see clearly your best results are countered in one way or the other. You get the fastest speed from shorting the coil but you get no power.
You can grab leg and speed it up but you get LOW current.
Or you can grab current and cause a reduction in speed.

I am sure though the effect of speeding it up while producing small currents can be enhanced to provide more current.


I forgot the coil specs..... 840 ft 30 awg, 86.6 ohms of resistance. Iron 1/4 bolt for core. Also with NO GEN COIL the motor did 5250 rpm's

I also have more tests with resistance, post them later.

Matt

nilrehob 08-31-2011 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hherby (Post 154375)
Interesting videos guys. Thanks for posting them. I watched the videos and I don't recall hearing anyone say what core material was used for the coils. In Overunityguide's video, it looked like a steel bolt. Overunityguide, please check if the core heats up. I would think this arrangement would create very high eddie currents in the core causing it to heat up.

Does Heins state what he is using for a core in his coils anywhere?

Nilerob, what are you using for a core in your high impedence coil?

I am curious if the same effect occurs if using different core material like ferrite rod, powdered iron or magnetite core.

Thanks

Alex

Im using "std welding-rods" as in a SSG.

/Hob

nilrehob 08-31-2011 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Jones (Post 154380)
Here is the tests I did to see if one legs of the AC was responsible and where how to pull power for the greatest gain.
http://www.matthewcjones.com/power/CoilShortTest.jpg

You can see clearly your best results are countered in one way or the other. You get the fastest speed from shorting the coil but you get no power.
You can grab leg and speed it up but you get LOW current.
Or you can grab current and cause a reduction in speed.

I am sure though the effect of speeding it up while producing small currents can be enhanced to provide more current.


I forgot the coil specs..... 840 ft 30 awg, 86.6 ohms of resistance. Iron 1/4 bolt for core. Also with NO GEN COIL the motor did 5250 rpm's

I also have more tests with resistance, post them later.

Matt

Thats interesting, ill look into it when i get another time-slot for it.

/Hob

Overunityguide 08-31-2011 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hherby (Post 154375)
Interesting videos guys. Thanks for posting them. I watched the videos and I don't recall hearing anyone say what core material was used for the coils. In Overunityguide's video, it looked like a steel bolt. Overunityguide, please check if the core heats up. I would think this arrangement would create very high eddie currents in the core causing it to heat up.

Does Heins state what he is using for a core in his coils anywhere?

Nilerob, what are you using for a core in your high impedence coil?

I am curious if the same effect occurs if using different core material like ferrite rod, powdered iron or magnetite core.

Thanks

Alex

@hherby

Hello Alex,

I am using a normal steel bolt as a core, and yes it is warming up after running the generator for a while... But it is not becoming hot. So there are active eddy currents in my coil... But for now the effect is there.

I agree that using other materials as a core would be better, but for now it is just soft steel.

Kind Regards, Overunityguide

toranarod 08-31-2011 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overunityguide (Post 154328)
Hi you all,

Please view my most recent video about the Negative Lenz / Delayed Lenz Effect Experiment.
It is actually a Replication of the Thane C Heins Regenerative Accelerating Generator:

overunityguide's Channel - YouTube

My results are the same as Thane C Heins. In my opinion this is what we all are looking for.

With Kind Regards,

Overunityguide


do you have a wattage reading with out the coil bolted to the motor?

there is more to compare drag than just a load I think.

great Video

MonsieurM 08-31-2011 10:03 PM

Different materials, different rpm create different sound and vibration :thumbsup:


Quote:

Sound is a mechanical wave that is an oscillation of pressure transmitted through a solid, liquid, or gas, composed of frequencies within the range of hearing and of a level sufficiently strong to be heard, or the sensation stimulated in organs of hearing by such vibrations.
Quote:

Vibration refers to mechanical oscillations about an equilibrium point. The oscillations may be periodic such as the motion of a pendulum or random such as the movement of a tire on a gravel road.

Vibration is occasionally "desirable". For example the motion of a tuning fork, the reed in a woodwind instrument or harmonica, or the cone of a loudspeaker is desirable vibration, necessary for the correct functioning of the various devices.

Overunityguide 09-01-2011 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toranarod (Post 154437)
do you have a wattage reading with out the coil bolted to the motor?

there is more to compare drag than just a load I think.

great Video

@toranarod Thanks, Yes I have measured it yesterday,

It runs on 66 Watts Without the rotor connected, so the shaft is turning only.
And it runs on 68 / 69 Watts with the rotor connected, but without the generator coil.

With Kind Regards, Overunityguide
Thane C Heins Replication, Confirming the Negative Lenz Effect - YouTube

vrand 09-01-2011 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nilrehob (Post 154332)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, ... Yes! ;)

:cheers:

/Hob

:cheers: is right! :thumbsup:

Looking forward to seeing how this design progresses!

Cheers Mike

geotron 09-02-2011 11:31 AM

Could it be understood that,
"When the N-S poles frequency on a hi-voltage coil from the
generator wheel reaches above the threshold of how quickly
the coil can dissipate its stored potential gained from the
rotor, a backflow of energy takes place in favor of
powering the motor."

Wouldn't it go in saying that by surrounding the rotor with
enough impedance that it would reduce the required speed at
which the regenerative acceleration would take place?

Excellent demonstration videos... although it doesn't
appear any switches are implemented on your HV coils
for shorting them when the rotor magnets are centered.

Allen Burgess 09-02-2011 12:26 PM

Lidmotor's Maggie.
 
Does this video of Lidmotor's help cofirm the Lenz Delay Propulsion effect?


Light Multiplier---Amp draw measurements.ASF - YouTube

synchro
Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 366

Lidmotor's light multiplier

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Lenz propulsion theory may help explain Lidmotor's amp draw drop effect demonstrated in this video. Lidmotor draws less input power when he's driving Maggie! I believe the spinner is going faster then the induced pole shift of the output coil and catching a forward shove instead of a repulsive drag. The spinner should get twice the propulsion inside the coil from both poles, one on each side.


YouTube - Light Multiplier---Amp draw measurements.ASF!

P.S. Spiral Knot spinner hit 32.2K R.P.M.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by synchro : 09-21-2010 at 11:48 PM.

Overunityguide 09-02-2011 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geotron (Post 154655)
Could it be understood that,
Excellent demonstration videos... although it doesn't
appear any switches are implemented on your HV coils
for shorting them when the rotor magnets are centered.

Thank you geotron,

But why should you use switches to short? Constant shorting will do better.
(will give you better acceleration)

Kind Regards, Overunityguide
Thane C Heins Replication, Confirming the Negative Lenz Effect - YouTube

Matthew Jones 09-02-2011 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overunityguide (Post 154702)
But why should you use switches to short? Constant shorting will do better.
(will give you better acceleration)

Ya but nothing in the way will give you better acceleration. Am I wrong?

Matt

Shadesz 09-02-2011 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Jones (Post 154708)
Ya but nothing in the way will give you better acceleration. Am I wrong?

Matt

Not always true if you have the right conditions....

http://www.energeticforum.com/151372-post1175.html

http://www.energeticforum.com/152066-post1205.html

Matthew Jones 09-02-2011 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadesz (Post 154710)

I have read al that but he does not give the baseline. For instance No Gen coil 5000 rpm. Gen with coil with load 4000 rpm. Gen coils shorted out ????

Is it going to be faster than with no gen coil? We don't know because no one give a baseline.

Read This
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post154380
I wrote the baseline in the last sentence of text.

This test clearly shows no matter what the gen coil slows you down, and short circuit or NO resistance load, is the best way to pull power from the gen coil. But there is a comfortable middle if done correctly.

Still no one has shown acceleration with the gen coil beyond the "No Gen Coil".
Because we never get baseline.

If the motor were to run to run 5000 rpm without a Gen coil then you add one with a short circuit and the motor ran 5600 rpms then I would say using the coil in shorted position was a benefit.
You follow me?

Matt

Shadesz 09-02-2011 09:41 PM

Reread the first link and look at the table a little more closely.

No generator coil.... 4034 rpm
Non loaded gen coil.... 4021 rpm
Loaded gen coil (1.63 watts out)... 4054 rpm
Loaded gen coil (1.7 watts out)... 4059 rpm

Also note that the input was digitally controlled and was the same across all 4 tests.

Per the numbers, Rod has been able to achieve a 0.6% INCREASE in speed when loading a generator coil compared to having no generator coil in place at all while keeping the input power the same.

I think a lot of people missed that when he posted it. But the implications are HUGE!

Matthew Jones 09-02-2011 10:28 PM

I got ya.

I misread it.

Well thats good. Is he the only one?

Matt

Shadesz 09-02-2011 11:39 PM

If I recall correctly someone @ OU posted similar results. I am searching for it now. Can't find it.

Here is another post of Rod's with a different set up. MuMetal core (compared to the iron core). Still showing increase in speed over no coil, in most cases.

Quote:

No load No coil and no side magnets 4106 RPM
No load with coil and no side magnets 4099 RPM
Full load 190 m AMPS at 6 volts 4145 RPM very quick acceleration.
Now here the bit that has got me in a spin. short the coil 4088 RPM I got no idea why.
It will require more testing and double checking so this may be wrong. But looks like it.
I have many ideas in my mind to replicate/ improve the results. It will be a while until I can bring them to fruition. I have much to learn/engineer before I start the specific building(s) I have in mind.

geotron 09-03-2011 04:07 AM

If the hi-impedance coil is not shorted when in the presence of an
approaching rotor magnet, wouldn't this disable an opposing polarity from
forming on the coil?? The way I've interpreted T.Heins presentation of
this technology in his NASA video, shorting the HV coil at the right
moment is some kind of key method.

With a generator coil surrounding the hi-impedance coil as it is shown,
their polarity of operation seems to be opposing eachother due to the
apparent direction of the switches S1 & S2, although following the way
each coil is drawn it looks as if they are both wound in the same
direction.

When the hi-impedance coil is only used for the sole purpose of
accelerating the motor and a generator coil is wound around it or
positioned at another location on the rotor, how might this change the
efficiency compared with using a single coil for both purposes?

http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/...ntric-coil.gif

elias 09-03-2011 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadesz (Post 154718)
Reread the first link and look at the table a little more closely.

No generator coil.... 4034 rpm
Non loaded gen coil.... 4021 rpm
Loaded gen coil (1.63 watts out)... 4054 rpm
Loaded gen coil (1.7 watts out)... 4059 rpm

Also note that the input was digitally controlled and was the same across all 4 tests.

Per the numbers, Rod has been able to achieve a 0.6% INCREASE in speed when loading a generator coil compared to having no generator coil in place at all while keeping the input power the same.

I think a lot of people missed that when he posted it. But the implications are HUGE!

These were the most amazing info I have seen in years in the forums. I am still trying to replicate this effect. I have yet not been able to achieve a speed higher than the coil-less configuration.

Shadesz 09-03-2011 07:50 AM

As I am waiting for my build skills to increase I can't test this on my own, so I hope some of you would be willing to try and test something for me.

This is for those who have a pulse motor and have seen a generator coil load cause acceleration to the motor. Can you do a simple test and report the results please?

Flip the connecting wires to the generator coil and re-test. Record and post the change in RPM vs the change in RPM in the original design.

My guessing is that you will not see an increase in RPM. Perhaps even a slowing down. If I am right I would love to share my theory why. This may help others achieve the acceleration effect that haven't been able to do so yet. As for now I don't want to crowd peoples minds with a theory without data.

Note: remember that if your generator circuit has diodes or led's you will need to flip those as well. Thanks in advance.

nilrehob 09-03-2011 04:11 PM

I have reduced the number of motor-coils on the motor to two,
this gives me more room for testing generator-coils,
and of course it's easier to work with.

To be able to measure the consumption of the motor i have been using this setup:
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/170/bounceback.png

Its two SSG circuits, one normal NPN and one mirrored PNP,
this eliminates the charging battery normally present,
instead I use this energy for more torque.

By putting different resistance on the each generator coil i test
i have found out that there is a threshold for the size of the resistance
for which it is making the motor accelerate or decelerate.

If the resistor is less than the threshold it accelerates the motor.

Also it seems like the higher the inductance the higher the threshold resistance.

Another observation is that the voltage over the resistor is not a perfect sine-wave,
one side of the zero-line is sharper than the other side.

/Hob

minoly 09-03-2011 05:01 PM

coil specs magnets and Hz
 
I think it is important with so many of us having different builds to start to compile very specific data.

to me these are important to nail down an optimal output

Hz - our best results were @ 9,369 magnet passes per second

1.924 Henry
323 ohms
31 or 30 awg can't remember most likely 30
9 welding rods as core
59mm long x 28mm wide
magnets are 3/8 x 3/8 round

the method we used is to physically add the coil while the rotor is spinning. our coil does slow the rotor down from 3253rpm to 3123 rpm. but as we all know the SSG ckt, the amp draw goes down as well and if properly tuned your charging should increase ever so slightly - I digress this is for another thread...

so there are the specs so far. when I get some time I'll post more on the outputs of the coil. we used it to charge a 12 and six volt battery. with each of these loads, the rotor only slowed slightly. w/o a load the rotor slowed down to about 2700 range. one other note
we put the core as close as we can to the magnets - my guess would be 1-2mm gap.
:cheers:
Patrick


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